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QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

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????

are we now blaming the muslims and the christians for our predicament?

have we considered our population numbers? ie a small pie divided with ever increasing numbers?

kunjuppu

sir,no one is blaming.it's a fact that stockholm syndrome is happening real time in India.Indians are more eager to ape Islam and Christanity,it's a psyche thing,thats been demolished for nearly 1200 years,plz think this as a humane situation.It's frustration of unmanageable proportions,imagine parents takng care of 100 kids with meagre resources to harness,and above all dependant on others for science and technology.That is why Indians rely on past performances of ancients a lot,a fall back cushion sir,to keep self esteem up and high,after all we are a proud nation.
 
kunjuppu

sir,no one is blaming.it's a fact that stockholm syndrome is happening real time in India.Indians are more eager to ape Islam and Christanity,it's a psyche thing,thats been demolished for nearly 1200 years,plz think this as a humane situation.It's frustration of unmanageable proportions,imagine parents takng care of 100 kids with meagre resources to harness,and above all dependant on others for science and technology.That is why Indians rely on past performances of ancients a lot,a fall back cushion sir,to keep self esteem up and high,after all we are a proud nation.

i am beginning to understand. i think.

thanks. :)
 
NAchi NAga,

Again an amazingly good point! If it is not in the three guNas and carried over karma that comprise a human, why should there be discrimination even to the nationalities? I am reminded of the following lines I read long back in a short story:

கடவுள் ஒருவனே என்று கரடியாகக் கத்தும் மதங்கள்
மனிதன் ஒருவனே என்று ஏன் போதிக்கத் தவறிவிட்டன?

தாடி வெச்சா முஸ்லிம், தலப்பா கட்டினா சீக்கியன்,
பட்டையடிச்சா சைவம், நாமம் போட்டா வைஷ்ணவம்,
சிலுவை போட்டா கிறிஸ்துவன்,
அவுத்துப்போட்டா எல்லாரும் மனுஷன்தானய்யா!

kaDavuL oruvanE enRu karaDiyAkak kaththum matha~ggaL
manithan oruvanE enRu En bOdhikkath thavaRiviTTana?

dhADi vechchA muSlim, thalappA kaTTinA sIkkiyan,
paTTaiyaDichchA saivam, ~nAmam pOTTA vaishNavam,
siluvai pOTTA kiRiSthuvan,
avuththuppOTTA ellArum man

saidevo

whoever wrote sir,amazing truth isn't it?only one sun is there for earth people,and we are saying Indian Sun,American Sun,Russian Sun....etc when Sun is common for all of us,sigh.Similiarly god is one for all common for all..ekam sath vipra bahuda vadanthi, sai ram.
 
namaste NN.

In all humility, the short story was written by aDiyEn. Titled 'mukham theriyAp pagaivargaL', it was published in the magazine 'idhayam pEsukiRathu' in the year 1985/86. I wrote only five ss, of which three were published, and later I lost interest as it was an arduous task.
 
namaste NN.

In all humility, the short story was written by aDiyEn. Titled 'mukham theriyAp pagaivargaL', it was published in the magazine 'idhayam pEsukiRathu' in the year 1985/86. I wrote only five ss, of which three were published, and later I lost interest as it was an arduous task.

saidevo

omg you are a celebrity amongst us,wow.Sheer Genius from the tribe of brahmanas,bravo.
 
Our main strength is unity in diversity. Let there be thousands of castes and sub-castes. It is nothing but a historical grouping. We have to respect each grouping and help them to preserve their culture and tradition.

Missionaries are doing exactly opposite. They want to kill the native culture, tradition and practices.

When it come to animal, birds etc, we always advocate preserving each and every variety and sub variety. There is nothing wrong in adopting the same methodology for human beings also.

We should only eliminate the disparities such as upper caste, backward caste, scheduled caste etc. Once we do that, whatever is being projected now as our weakness will become our strength.

All the best
 
In continuation of my post no.156 dated 04 May 2010:

Hindu social structure in the times of the Vedas: a glimpse

It is anyone's guess that the hiearchical system of caste was derived from the equitable system of chatur-varNa. Although the different castes as we know them today were not there in the times of the Vedas and ItihAsa-PurANas, the BhAratIya social structure of those times certainly comprised of different groups of people, who were broadly identified as Aryas--those who respected and followed the Veda Dharma, and anAryas--those who disrespected and opposed it.

In addition, there were different groups among the Aryans themselves, identified by their varNa. Similarly, there were groups among the anAryans, some of which figure in the Vedas: DAsas/Dasyus, PaNis, and Asuras. This compilation is about the social groups of people who lived in the times of the Vedas.

Astronomical chronology of the Vedas

Although the Vedas are eternal, and were/are preserved by an impeccable oral tradition, they were compiled by VyAsa Maharshi for the Kali Yuga, which started on 18 Feb 3102 BCE. A discussion of the date of Kali Yuga is given at: (51) The beginning of kaliyug. (3102 BC)

• Hindu tradition makes mention of the conjunction of the 'seven planets' (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, sun and moon) and Ketu (southern lunar node, the northern node/RAhu being by definition in the opposite location) near the fixed star Revati (Zeta Piscium) on 18 February 3102 BCE. This date, at which KRShNa is supposed to have breathed his last, is conventionally the start of the so-called Kali-Yuga.

• If we can read the Vedic and post-Vedic indications properly, they mention constellations on the equinox points which were there

‣ from 4000 BCE for the Rg-Veda (Orion, as already pointed out by B.G.Tilak)
‣ through around 3100 BCE for the Atharva-Veda and the core MahAbhArata
‣ down to 2300 BCE for the SUtras and the shatapatha brAhmaNa.

‣ Thus, the kauShItaki brAhmaNa puts the winter solstice at the new moon of the sidereal month of MAgha (i.e. the MahAshivarAtri festival), which now falls 70 days later: this points to a date in the first half of the 3rd millennium BCE.

‣ The same processional movement of the twelve months of the Hindu calendar (which are tied to the constellations) vis-a-vis the meterological seasons, is what allowed Hermann Jacobi to fix the date of the Rg-Veda to the 5th-4th millennium BCE.

• A lesser-known Hindu system of time-reckoning is the Saptarishi cycle of 3600 years (possibly based on the 60-year cycle).

‣ The medieval Kashmiri historian Kalhana claimed that the previous cycle had started in 3076 BCE, and the present one in 525 CE.

‣ J.E.Mitchiner has suggested that the beginning of the Saptarishi reckoning was one more cycle earlier, in 6676 BCE. He says in his work 'Tradition of the Seven Rishis':

"We may conclude that the older and original version of the Era of the Seven Rishis commenced with the Seven Rishis in KrittikA in 6676 BCE, used a total of 28 NakShatras, and placed the start of the Kali-Yuga in 3102 BCE. This version was in use in northern India from at least the 4th century BCE, as witnessed by the statements of Greek and Roman writers; it was also the version used by Vrddha Garga, at around the start of the Christian era."

This would roughly coincide with the start of the PurANic dynastic list reported by Greco-Roman authors as starting in 6776 BCE.

‣ This would, according to the implicit chronology of PurANic tradition, be the time of Manu’s enthronement, Manu being the Aryan patriarch who established his kingdom in North India after having survived the Flood. One of Manu’s heirs was IlA, ancestress of YayAti, whose five sons became the patriarchs of the "five peoples" who form the ethnic horizon of the Vedas, one of them being Puru; in Puru’s tribe, then, one Bharata started the Bharata clan to which most of the Vedic seers belonged.

‣ The PurANas describe Manu as the leader of mankind after the Flood, and if we apply a realistic average length to the rulerships of the kings mentioned in the PurANic dynastic lists, Manu may have lived in the 7th millennium BCE, the time of the rising waters, warranting the suspicion that the Flood story is related to historical events at the end of the Ice Age.

‣ The influence of Indian astronomy on both China and Babylonia confirms the Vedic-
Harappan civilization’s status as the world metropolis in the 4th-3rd millennium BCE.

• This corpus of astronomical indications suggests
‣ that the Rg-Veda was completed in the 4th millennium BCE,
‣ that the core text of the MahAbhArata was composed at the end of that millennium,
‣ and that the BrAhmaNas and SUtras are products of the high Harappan period towards the end of the 3rd millennium BCE.

• Baudhayana shrauta sUtra 18.44:397.9 speaks of migration of the Aryan Princes Ayus and AmAvasu, sons of Pururavas:

"AyuH went east, his is the YamunA-GangA region", while "AmAvasu went west, his is Afghanistan, Parshu and West Panjab".

Though the then location of 'Parshu' (Persia?) is hard to decide, it is definitely a western country, along with the two others named, western from the viewpoint of a people settled near the SarasvatI river in what is now Haryana.

• The ethnonyms of the enemies of the Vedic Aryans, the DAsas (Iranian Daha, known to Greco-Roman authors as Daai, Dahae), Dasyus (Iranian dahyu, 'tribe', esp. hostile nomadic tribe) and Panis (Greek Parnoi), as unmistakably the names of Iranian tribes.

‣ The Iranian identity of DAsas and Dasyus is now wellestablished, a development which should at least put an end to the talk of the DAsas being "the dark-skinned aboriginals enslaved by the Aryan invaders".

‣ the explicit evidence of the geographical data given in the same Vedic texts, (which) locate(s) the interaction with the DAsas and Dasyus in Panjab. From the identification of the DAsas and Dasyus as Iranians, it could be deduced that these Iranian tribes have lived in India for a while.

• Shrikant Talageri's survey (in his book 'The Rg-Veda, a Historical Analysis') of the relative chronology of all Rg-Vedic kings and poets has been based exclusively on the internal textual evidence, and yields a completely consistent chronology.

‣ Its main finding is that the geographical gradient of Vedic Aryan culture in its Rg-Vedic stage is from east to west, with the eastern river GangA appearing a few times in the older passages (written by the oldest poets mentioning the oldest kings),

‣ and the western river Indus appearing in later parts of the book (written by descendents of the oldest poets mentioning descendents of the oldest kings).

Semantics of the group names in the Vedas

In refutation of the AIT, Dr.Ambedkar took the trouble of verifying the meaning and context, in every single instance, of the Vedic terms which Western scholars often mentioned as proof of a conflict between white Aryan invaders and dark non-Aryan aboriginals. His line of argument has been elaborated further by V.S.Pathak and Shrikant Talageri.

DAsa

Among the Vedic terms figuring prominently in the AIT reading of the Vedas, the most important one is probably dAsa.

• DAsa, known to mean 'slave, servant' in classical Sanskrit, but in the Rg-Veda the name of an enemy tribe, along with the apparently related word dasyu, is interpreted in AIT parlance as 'aboriginal'.

• More probably these words designate the Vedic people’s white-skinned cousins, who at one point became their enemies, for both terms exist in Iranian, 'dahae' being one of the Iranian tribes, and 'dahyu' meaning 'tribe, nation'.

• The original meaning of dAsa, long preserved in the Khotanese dialect of Iranian, is 'man'; it is used in this sense in the Vedic names DivodAs, 'divine man' and SudAs, 'good man'.

• In Iranian, it always preserved its neutral or positive meaning, it is only in late-Vedic that it acquired a hostile and ultimately a degrading connotation. Strangely a similar evolution has taken place in Greek, where 'doulos--slave', is an evolute of 'doselos', from 'dos-', the IE root of dAsa.

• The post-Vedic evolution in meaning from an ethnic name to 'servant' does not necessarily point to enslavement of enemies; no military event of such nature and relating to the word, dAsa is mentioned in the Vedic literature.

• Instead of seeing the Vedic people as warriors, we may see them as a prosperous merchant population which at some stage, in a perfectly normal economic development, attracted the inflow of neighbouring populations as guestworkers willing to do the menial work, the way the Biblical twelve sons of Jacob went to Egypt of their own free will, where their children became a class of menial workers.

• But it is admittedly just as likely that the evolution was from 'enemy' through 'captive' to 'slave'. Whatever the scenario of their social degradation may have been, nothing in the Vedic text shows that the DAsas were dark, nor that they were aboriginals as opposed to invaders.

Asura

Asura is the original Indo-Iranian and Vedic term for 'Lord', a form of address both for the gods and for people of rank.

• The late- and post-Vedic concept of DevAsurasaMgrAma, usually translated as 'war between Devas/gods and Asuras/demons', has led to the notion that this represents a war between two categories of gods, comparable to the Germanic Aesir and Wanir, or to the warring Gods and Titans of Greek mythology.

• However, there never existed a separate category of celestial beings called Asuras; the Devas themselves were originally addressed as Asura.

• At this point, we have to give credit to the invasionists for identifying the DevAsurasaMgrAma as essentially a political struggle between two nations using their respective religious terminology as a banner. However, the Asura-worshippers, or Asuras for short, are not the non-Aryan aboriginals of whom we merely assume that they must have worshipped Asura; they are the nation known to worship Asura, or in their own dialect Ahura (epithet Mazda, so 'wise Lord'), the usual Iranian term for the Vedic god VaruNa, god of the cosmic order and the truth (rta/arta).

• The religious difference between Iranians and Vedic 'fire-worshippers' was a minor difference in emphasis, and had nothing to do with the causes of their conflict.

• It was only after a war over the control of prize territory in the Panjab erupted, that the term Asura got identified with the aggression of the Kashmir-based Anava/Iranian people against the Paurava/Vedic heartland in Sapta-Saindhavah, and acquired a negative, anti-Vedic or anti-Deva meaning. Conversely, it must have been on that same occasion that the Iranians turned Deva/Daeva into a term for 'demon'.

Speech defects

• mRudhravAk--of harsh speech, could refer to hecklers mocking the Vedic rituals, more or less 'blasphemers'. Usually it is interpreted as 'speaking a foreign language', though that is not its literal meaning; and even if correct, this could still refer to another IE language or dialect.

‣ Scornful references to other people's languages are more often about closely related ones, cfr. the many English expressions pejoratively using the word 'Dutch', the language of England’s enemies in the 17th century, but nonetheless also the language which is (except for Frisian) the most closely akin to English.

• anAsa is interpreted as a-nAsa, 'noseless', stretched to mean 'snub-nosed'; but classical commentators analysed it, just as credibly, as an-Asa, 'speechless' (Asa being the regular cognate of Latin os--mouth).

‣ This type of anthropomorphic imagery is often used in the Vedas for characterizing natural elements, e.g. fire as 'footless'. If referring to people, it is to be remarked that few Indians even among the tribals are snub-nosed. If taken to mean 'speechless', hence perhaps 'unintellegible', the same remark is valid as in the case of mRudhravAk: unintellegibility is most striking when hearing someone speaking a dialect of your own language, i.e. when he was expected to be intellegible in the first place.

• Nevertheless, it stands to reason that the Vedic people have encountered enemies on some occasions, that some of these enemies did speak a completely di?erent language, that Vedic hymns were composed in preparation or commemoration of the battle, and that the enemies were mentioned in the hymns along with their strange language as their most distinctive trait. So, let us assume that the above terms do refer to people speaking a non-IE language. That would not at all be proof of an Aryan invasion, because both parties may be native, or the non-IE-speaking party may be the invading one.

‣ When the Germans invaded France in 1870, 1914 and 1940, the French duly noted that the German language was full of 'harsh' sounds; even so, it was the mRudhravAk Germans who were the invaders.

Black

• kRShNayoni--from a black womb, kRShNa-tvach==black-skinned, tvacham-asiknIm, asiknivishaH--black tribe and other composites involving 'black', read in their contexts, usually refer to darkness, to nightly stratagems in war, or metaphorically to evil.

‣ Most languages have expressions like 'black deeds', 'dark portends', 'the dark age', associating darkness with evil, ignorance or danger.

‣ Vedic Sanskrit is extremely rich in metaphors, in techno-scientific contexts (for lack of a separate technical jargon) as well as in cultural and religious contexts, e.g. the word go-cow, can refer to Mother Earth, the sunshine, material wealth, language, the Aum sound, etc. It is not far-fetched to perceive a metaphorical intention behind the use of words like 'black', similar to that in other languages.

• It also has to be inspected case by case whether the reference is at all to human beings (whether skin-colour or figurative characterization), because many Vedic expressions are about gods and heavenly phenomena.

‣ When it is said that Agni, the fire, 'puts the dark demons to flight', one should keep in mind that the darkness was thought to be filled with ghosts or ghouls, so that making light frees the atmosphere of their presence.

‣ And when UShA, the dawn, is said to chase the 'dark skin' or 'the black monster' away, it obviously refers to the cover of nightly darkness over the surface of the earth.

varNa

The term varNa is understood in classical Sanskrit as 'colour'.

• This is then explained as referring to the symbolic colours attributed to the three cosmological 'qualities' (guNa): white corresponds to sattva--clarity, red to rajas--energy and black to tamas--darkness, following the pattern of daylight, twilight and nightly darkness.

• Likewise, the different functions in the social spectrum are allotted a member of the colour spectrum: the menial (tAmasika) ShUdras are symbolically 'black', the heroic (rAjasika) KShatriyas are 'red', and the truth-loving (sAttvika) Brahmins are 'white'; in addition, the entrepreneurial Vaishyas are considered to have a mixture of qualities, and are allotted the colour yellow.

‣ This sense of 'colour' has nothing to do with skin colour, as should also be evident from the ancient use of the same colour code among the all-white Germanic peoples.

• Moreover, 'colour' might even not be the original, Vedic meaning of varNa. Reformist Hindus eager to disentangle the institution of varNa from any doctrines of genetic determinism, derive it from the root var--choose (as in svayamvara--a girl’s own choice of a husband, with the implication

that one’s varna is not a matter of birth but of personal choice. This seems to tally with Stanley Insler’s rendering, in his classic translation of The GAthAs of Zarathushtra, of the corresponding Avestan term varna as 'preference' (which other translators sometimes stretch to mean 'conviction', 'religious affiliation'). But we believe that the root meaning is even simpler.

• In the Rg-Veda, the word varNa usually (17 out of 22 times) refers to the 'lustre' (i.e. "one’s own typical light", a meaning obviously related to 'colour') of specified gods: UShA, Agni, Soma, etc. As for the remaining cases,

‣ in 3:34:5 and 9:71:2 it indicates the lustrous colour of the sky at dawn.

‣ In 1:104:2 and 2:12:4, reference is only to quelling the varNa of the DAsas, meaning "the DAsas’ luster" (in the first case, Ralph Griffith translates it as 'the fury of the DAsa').

‣ Finally, in the erotic Rg-Vedic hymn 1:179, verse 6, where Agastya, in doing the needful with his wife Lopamudra to obtain progeny, is said to satisfy 'both varNas', this is understood by some as referring quite plainly to the two families of husband and wife, who rejoice in the arrival of a grandchild. Since the hymn mentions the conflict between sexuality and asceticism, others interpret it as meaning "both paths (of worldliness and world-renunciation)". At any rate, there is simply no question of reading a racist meaning into it.

Source:
1. 'Update on the AIT' by Koenraad Elst
 
Anand, suppose that there is a George Iyer, born to Chrisitan parents, who is a stalwart proponent of Advaitam and a superior Bhaktha of Kamakshi. He lives a pure life true to the dictum ahimsha pradamam pushpam. And further suppose he wants to be a Brahmin, no attempt to convert him by anyone. Then, would he be accepted as a Brahmin?

Cheers!

Shri. Nara,

apology for the delay in replying, I don't check this forum on friday and saturdays. I would definitely accept him as a Brahmin. My point is there are lot of Westerners who could be like George Iyer. They really need not convert to Hinduism legally though could be following the tenets of Hindusim in principle. A true Hindu believing in the doctrine of karma will also not try and convert him.
 
... I would definitely accept him as a Brahmin.

Dear Anand, this is commendable indeed, but the question still remains, paraphrasing BRA, why there are so few Anands and so many who are not like you?

....... A true Hindu believing in the doctrine of karma will also not try and convert him.
Indeed, I fully agree!

The doctrine of karma is central to Hindus. A person is born as a Hindu or Christian, etc., due to karma. Karma will give that person a future birth that is conducive to realization of "truth". Thus, a true Hindu makes no attempt to convert not so much because of respect or tolerance of the other person's faith, but because the true Hindu believes that karma will take its course.

On the other hands, Christians and Muslims believe a person will go to hell eternally unless they convert. So, in their view, when they convert someone, they are not only saving the converted from fire and brimstone forever, but made reservation for a cushy life in heaven forever. Therefore, a true Christian or Muslim with compassion must try and convert as many people as possible. A Christian or a Muslim who does not try to convert others is not only a bad Christian/Muslim, but a bad person as well -- what sort of a person would let others suffer in hell like that?

To me, both are perfectly reasonable within their own respective premises. If you subscribe to the Hindu premise of Karma, then you don't need to convert anyone, but if you subscribe to the Christian premise you must try and convert as many as possible.

You can't say the Hindu premise is better because it leads to no conversion. That would be self serving, using the same logic, a Christian can claim his/her premise is better because it leads to conversion.

The real question is not which premise is better, but which premise is reasonable. The answer to that is, both premises are utter bunk.

Cheers!
 
...

You can't say the Hindu premise is better because it leads to no conversion. That would be self serving, using the same logic, a Christian can claim his/her premise is better because it leads to conversion.

The real question is not which premise is better, but which premise is reasonable. The answer to that is, both premises are utter bunk.
Reasonableness??? To whom or what? How can they be compared? Every ethnic religion has the right in its country of origin to uphold its religious values. Any infringement to thwart it should definitely be opposed.

Regards,
 
Reasonableness??? To whom or what?

Reasonable to common sense and impartial observer.

... Every ethnic religion has the right in its country of origin to uphold its religious values. Any infringement to thwart it should definitely be opposed.

Are you saying in India Hindus are thwarted from practicing their religion? You can't say that, so whatever do you mean by this? Are you saying the very act of trying to convert is thwarting? This, I think, is more an emotional stance than one based on reason.

Cheers!
 
Reasonable to common sense and impartial observer.
Partial and impartial are relative terms... it is not easy to take a stand and afford a dictum...

Are you saying in India Hindus are thwarted from practicing their religion? ...
Yes, covertly and overtly...

Regards,
 
Partial and impartial are relative terms... it is not easy to take a stand and afford a dictum...

I will pass on the above impartial dictum
icon10.gif



Nara: Are you saying in India Hindus are thwarted from practicing their religion? ...

Saptha: Yes, covertly and overtly...
Saptha, I think you are seeing goblins in places where there are none, or is it a snake you are seeing where there is not even a rope. Just the same, on what are you basing this assertion?

How are the Hindus thwarted (i) covertly, and (ii) overtly?

Cheers!

p.s. Are those your stern eyes?
 
Dear Anand, this is commendable indeed, but the question still remains, paraphrasing BRA, why there are so few Anands and so many who are not like you?

Indeed, I fully agree!

The doctrine of karma is central to Hindus. A person is born as a Hindu or Christian, etc., due to karma. Karma will give that person a future birth that is conducive to realization of "truth". Thus, a true Hindu makes no attempt to convert not so much because of respect or tolerance of the other person's faith, but because the true Hindu believes that karma will take its course.

On the other hands, Christians and Muslims believe a person will go to hell eternally unless they convert. So, in their view, when they convert someone, they are not only saving the converted from fire and brimstone forever, but made reservation for a cushy life in heaven forever. Therefore, a true Christian or Muslim with compassion must try and convert as many people as possible. A Christian or a Muslim who does not try to convert others is not only a bad Christian/Muslim, but a bad person as well -- what sort of a person would let others suffer in hell like that?

To me, both are perfectly reasonable within their own respective premises. If you subscribe to the Hindu premise of Karma, then you don't need to convert anyone, but if you subscribe to the Christian premise you must try and convert as many as possible.

You can't say the Hindu premise is better because it leads to no conversion. That would be self serving, using the same logic, a Christian can claim his/her premise is better because it leads to conversion.

The real question is not which premise is better, but which premise is reasonable. The answer to that is, both premises are utter bunk.

Cheers!

Shri. Nara,

The true Hindu does not convert because he is taught that all paths lead to the one universal truth. Karma is one belief in Hinduism. Do you mean to say that all Hindus who don't believe in conversion don't subscribe to the principles of peace, tolerance and love but just do it because of their dogmatic belief in karma. I feel quite amused here.

To say that Muslims and Christians try to convert because they want to save humanity from eternal hell is even more amusing than the previous one. What about the humanity which existed before the advent of Christianity and Islam? Who is going to liberate those poor souls in eternal limbo? And why then Shias and Sunnis kill each other in spite of belonging to the same religion? Is there a separate Shia hell and a Sunni hell? And why then Christians belonging to one sect don't enter the Church belonging to another? Is there again a Pentecostal hell, Presbyterian hell and so on?

Shri. Nara, let me tell you what I feel. If the world does not subscribe to the ideas of peace, tolerance and brotherhood as said in our scriptures it will go to hell anyway. Even if it is not based on love, I would any day go for non-conversion based on karma than conversion based on a imaginary saving people from hell principle. With this principle you will soon find various sects within Christianity and Islam at each other's throats.
 
...Saptha, I think you are seeing goblins in places where there are none, or is it a snake you are seeing where there is not even a rope.
... or like seeing none where goblins do, in fact, exist, or like snakes which are considered ropes...

How are the Hindus thwarted (i) covertly, and (ii) overtly?

overtly - terrorist attacks, caste attack, attack on puranas, attack on acharyas, burning the gita/manu dharma, anti hindu lobbying, usurping of temple devasthanams, pro-other religions stance, etc.

covertly - forced conversions (apparently benign), gradual takeover of lands (apparently legitimate), brainwashing young minds in convents & sowing the seeds of doubt etc.

Are those your stern eyes?
WHAT! STERN!!!?? Eyes are mine, alright. Look again, :shocked:, they are compassion incarnate...

Regards,
 
... or like seeing none where goblins do, in fact, exist, or like snakes which are considered ropes...



overtly - terrorist attacks, caste attack, attack on puranas, attack on acharyas, burning the gita/manu dharma, anti hindu lobbying, usurping of temple devasthanams, pro-other religions stance, etc.

covertly - forced conversions (apparently benign), gradual takeover of lands (apparently legitimate), brainwashing young minds in convents & sowing the seeds of doubt etc.

WHAT! STERN!!!?? Eyes are mine, alright. Look again, :shocked:, they are compassion incarnate...

Regards,

sapthajihva

your eyes lare like deva drishti,oh panditah :nod:
 
Anand, Yes, I sometimes ramble on and therefore I can't fault you if you did not read my entire response. Here is what I said at the end:
The real question is not which premise is better, but which premise is reasonable. The answer to that is, both premises are utter bunk.
Religious dogma of all kinds have resulted in more misery than good. The Christian and Islamic religious doctrine/dogma based on their delusions may be amusing at first blush, but when I look at the horrendous price they have extracted from humanity, I am more repulsed than amused.

I also note that you don't find your own religious doctrine funny at all. For you the wisdom of the sages of Vedas is timeless and inerrant. Vedas are aupurusheya. This position does not amuse you, but sure is amusing to many including me.

And, the karma/reincarnation doctrine is at the root of varna/caste system, and that does not repulse you.

Even though I cannot claim to be any kind of authority on the Hindu scriptures, I can say that I am not completely ignorant of them either. So, I can say with a great deal of confidence that a true Hindu is taught, first and foremost, to do his religious karma. It does not say anything about converting anyone, out of love or respect or anything else. There is no mention in the scripture about converting others.

Further, when you say Hindus are taught that all paths lead to the one universal truth, I think you have been obfuscated or you are obfuscating. The great commentators have argued back and forth that their path is the right path. Advaitees say moksham is only through proper jnyana, and SVs say moksham is only through surrender. They say all paths etc. because, they claim based on their religious doctrine, that, given enough rebirths and suffering in this samsara, everyone will finally come to it. Until then suffer they must.

Furthermore, Smarthas deny entry to their path they think will lead to moksham, wisdom from vedic study, to majority of the population. SVs not trying to convert is even more egregious. They say surrender, which is open to all, will lead to moksham after the current life. This is why Ramanuja is said to have converted a lot of people to SV. Given their doctrinal position, SVs not trying to convert anyone is downright mean.

But, in the context of conversions today, and the call for its total ban, I must say it is completely contrary to what you are saying yourself, "a true Hindu does not convert because he is taught that all paths lead to the one universal truth."

Alright, then you don't convert -- why say a true Christian, who is taught that only his path will lead to universal truth, must also not try to convert?

If you really think about it, it is really a win-win situation -- from your POV, nothing is lost as the converted also will attain the universal truth, namely all paths, etc., and if the Christian is right, the converted would still find the universal truth.

So, it anyone inclined to religion accepts your argument must go out and convert to Christianity right away. They just can't lose.

Whatever the case may be, a complete ban on conversion is antithetical to modern liberal democratic values.


.... With this principle you will soon find various sects within Christianity and Islam at each other's throats.

This would be good for humanity, as the caste fights lead to the downfall of Hinduism, the world will be a better place without any religious dogma and doctrine.

Cheers!
 
Anand, Yes, I sometimes ramble on and therefore I can't fault you if you did not read my entire response. Here is what I said at the end:
The real question is not which premise is better, but which premise is reasonable. The answer to that is, both premises are utter bunk.
Religious dogma of all kinds have resulted in more misery than good. The Christian and Islamic religious doctrine/dogma based on their delusions may be amusing at first blush, but when I look at the horrendous price they have extracted from humanity, I am more repulsed than amused.

I read your entire reply. As you rightly said Islamic and Christian religious dogma has extracted a horrendous price from humanity. Where is such a heavy price extracted by Hinduism? In fact the contrary is true. Hinduism has been inflicted a heavy price by the other two religions. In spite of it, Hindus have not converted by the sword. This peaceful nature of the Hindus definitely has its inspiration from its Sruti where non-violence of any form is abhorred.

I also note that you don't find your own religious doctrine funny at all. For you the wisdom of the sages of Vedas is timeless and inerrant. Vedas are aupurusheya. This position does not amuse you, but sure is amusing to many including me.

Compare this with the violence in Christianity and Islam? It is known the madrassas preach hate against non-believers. Christianity invites violence by the single point agenda of the Church to increase its numbers and destroy indigenous cultures. Can you show an equivalent of Hindus indulging in religious violence anywhere in the world? The very fact that Hindusim has been solely confined to India and to the Indian diaspora spread around the world is proof that our concepts of karma, dharma and tolerance is way superior to other faiths. And to me this comes from the wisdom of the sages, our scriptures and our tradition. If you find this amusing, I am happy that there is something which makes you smile.

And, the karma/reincarnation doctrine is at the root of varna/caste system, and that does not repulse you.
Even though I cannot claim to be any kind of authority on the Hindu scriptures, I can say that I am not completely ignorant of them either. So, I can say with a great deal of confidence that a true Hindu is taught, first and foremost, to do his religious karma. It does not say anything about converting anyone, out of love or respect or anything else. There is no mention in the scripture about converting others.

Honestly I am neither repulsed by the karma or the caste system. Rather than blaming all the present day ills on them please try and go deeper into them and you will realise its original purpose and intent. You cannot study the concepts of Hindusim as laid in the scriptures in isolation. Please read the Yamas and Niyamas as laid out in the Upanishads. Two of the Yamas are Non-injury (ahimsa) and Compassion (Daya). They only talk about living beings in general not smartha or SV and so on. Goes without saying that if you convert another towards your faith it goes against most of the Yamas prescribed in the scriptures.

Further, when you say Hindus are taught that all paths lead to the one universal truth, I think you have been obfuscated or you are obfuscating. The great commentators have argued back and forth that their path is the right path. Advaitees say moksham is only through proper jnyana, and SVs say moksham is only through surrender. They say all paths etc. because, they claim based on their religious doctrine, that, given enough rebirths and suffering in this samsara, everyone will finally come to it. Until then suffer they must.

Furthermore, Smarthas deny entry to their path they think will lead to moksham, wisdom from vedic study, to majority of the population. SVs not trying to convert is even more egregious. They say surrender, which is open to all, will lead to moksham after the current life. This is why Ramanuja is said to have converted a lot of people to SV. Given their doctrinal position, SVs not trying to convert anyone is downright mean.

No one denies the existence of numerous sects and paths within Hinduism. The question is how much of it has lead to violence and bloodshed. If I as an enlightened master say this is the right path because of my experiences how does it purport to say that the other paths are bad. You never found mass conversions or violence between Hindu faiths as you find between the Abrahamic faiths. In spite of 33 crores of gods and numerous faiths there was still great harmony among the Hindus. Can you challenge this? And a lot of differences in beliefs within Hindus were sorted out by Tarka or debates those days unlike the Shias and Sunnis killing each other in the present day.

But, in the context of conversions today, and the call for its total ban, I must say it is completely contrary to what you are saying yourself, "a true Hindu does not convert because he is taught that all paths lead to the one universal truth."

Alright, then you don't convert -- why say a true Christian, who is taught that only his path will lead to universal truth, must also not try to convert?

If you really think about it, it is really a win-win situation -- from your POV, nothing is lost as the converted also will attain the universal truth, namely all paths, etc., and if the Christian is right, the converted would still find the universal truth.

So, it anyone inclined to religion accepts your argument must go out and convert to Christianity right away. They just can't lose.

Whatever the case may be, a complete ban on conversion is antithetical to modern liberal democratic values.

Coming to the question of why the true Christian who is taught to convert should not convert, I would say first let them convert the agnostics, atheists, No Religion, Kabbalahs and Scientologists who had deserted Christianity and win them back into the Christian fold. Let the Church first address the paedophiles in the garb of clergy (or is it the other way round) to win back the faith of Christians? Let the Church first address the issue of falling Church attendance all over Europe and USA and win back the faith of these Christians? Let the Church first address the issue of increasing number of Churches filing for bankruptcy in the USA. Unless one cleans up the stink in their own backyard what is the use of promising paradise to the neighbour? Sooner or later the stink is going to start haunting the neighbour in paradise as well.

I can argue why your belief is totally false. Conversion from the point of view of the Abrahamic faiths has nothing to do with lofty ideals of trying to provide salvation for non-believers or improving the standard of living. From the Islamic standpoint, conversion is aimed at bring the entire non-Islamic world under the rule of Allah. From the Christian standpoint, it is aimed at compensating the falling Christian population in the West by harvesting souls in Asia. Assuming the minority Jews and the predominantly peace loving Buddhists and Hindus succumb to this conversion; the Abrahamic faiths will start targeting each other. It may be the repeat of the Crusades but on a world wide scale. Given the violent history of these faiths, if the power of conversion is given to them it will be large scale manslaughter in the future.


This would be good for humanity, as the caste fights lead to the downfall of Hinduism, the world will be a better place without any religious dogma and doctrine.

who knows what the future holds?

Cheers![/QUOTE]
 
Thankyou for this very informative post.

Some questions:

It is anyone's guess that the hiearchical system of caste was derived from the equitable system of chatur-varNa. Although the different castes as we know them today were not there in the times of the Vedas and ItihAsa-PurANas, the BhAratIya social structure of those times certainly comprised of different groups of people, who were broadly identified as Aryas--those who respected and followed the Veda Dharma, and anAryas--those who disrespected and opposed it.

In addition, there were different groups among the Aryans themselves, identified by their varNa. Similarly, there were groups among the anAryans, some of which figure in the Vedas: DAsas/Dasyus, PaNis, and Asuras. This compilation is about the social groups of people who lived in the times of the Vedas.

Did the anAryas have varNa groupings?

"We may conclude that the older and original version of the Era of the Seven Rishis commenced with the Seven Rishis in KrittikA in 6676 BCE, used a total of 28 NakShatras, and placed the start of the Kali-Yuga in 3102 BCE. This version was in use in northern India from at least the 4th century BCE, as witnessed by the statements of Greek and Roman writers; it was also the version used by Vrddha Garga, at around the start of the Christian era."

This would roughly coincide with the start of the PurANic dynastic list reported by Greco-Roman authors as starting in 6776 BCE.

‣ This would, according to the implicit chronology of PurANic tradition, be the time of Manu’s enthronement, Manu being the Aryan patriarch who established his kingdom in North India after having survived the Flood. One of Manu’s heirs was IlA, ancestress of YayAti, whose five sons became the patriarchs of the "five peoples" who form the ethnic horizon of the Vedas, one of them being Puru; in Puru’s tribe, then, one Bharata started the Bharata clan to which most of the Vedic seers belonged.

‣ The PurANas describe Manu as the leader of mankind after the Flood, and if we apply a realistic average length to the rulerships of the kings mentioned in the PurANic dynastic lists, Manu may have lived in the 7th millennium BCE, the time of the rising waters, warranting the suspicion that the Flood story is related to historical events at the end of the Ice Age.

‣ The influence of Indian astronomy on both China and Babylonia confirms the Vedic-
Harappan civilization’s status as the world metropolis in the 4th-3rd millennium BCE.

• This corpus of astronomical indications suggests
‣ that the Rg-Veda was completed in the 4th millennium BCE,
‣ that the core text of the MahAbhArata was composed at the end of that millennium,
‣ and that the BrAhmaNas and SUtras are products of the high Harappan period towards the end of the 3rd millennium BCE.
The dating of Manu is very interesting. Is it based on the Puranas alone or more textual evidence?

Generally am not too comfortable with the puranas wrt to geneology accuracy. For example: both these lists are from the Bhavishya purana for the lineage of Praveer.

Brahma -> Mind-born son Atri -> produced Chndra from his eyes and from Chandra onwards the lineage is given thus:

List 1:
Chandra -> Budh -> Pururava -> Ayu -> Nahush -> Yayati -> Puru -> Janamejaya -> Prachinvan -> Praveer -> Namasyu -> Sudyu -> Bahugav -> Sanyati -> Ahanyati -> Raudrashwa -> Riteyu -> Rantibhar -> Apratirth -> Kanva -> adopted Shakuntala (married Dushyant) -> Bharat -> Bharadwaja.

List 2:
Chandra -> Budh -> Pururava -> Ayu -> Nahush -> Yayati -> Yadu -> Kroshtu -> Vrijinaghn -> Swaharchan -> Chitrarth -> Arvind -> Shravas -> Tamas -> Ushan -> Sheetanshu -> Kamalanshu -> Paravat -> Jyamagh -> Vidarbh -> Krath -> Kuntibhoja -> Vrishparva -> Mayavidya -> Janamejaya I -> Prachinvan -> Praveer -> Nabhasya -> -> Bhavad -> Sudyumn -> Bahugar -> Sanyati -> Dhanayati -> Aindrashwa -> Rantinar -> Sutapa -> Sanvaran (married Surya's daughter Tapati and therefore got related to the Suryavansh) -> Archagya -> Suryajapi -> Suryayagya -> Adityavardhan -> Dwadashatma -> Divakar -> Prabhakar -> Bhaswadatma -> Vivaswaj -> Haridashwarchan -> Vaikartan -> Arkeshtiman -> Martandvatsal -> Mihirarth -> Arunposhan -> Dyumani -> Taraniyagya -> Maitreshtivardhan -> Chitrabhanorjak -> Vairochan -> Hansnyayi -> Vedpravardhan -> Savitra -> Dhanapal -> Mlechchhanta -> Anandvardhan-> Dharmpal -> Brahmbhakt -> Brahmeshtivardhan -> Atmprapojak -> Parameshthi -> Hairanyavardhan -> Dhatrayaji -> Vidhatraprapojak -> Druhinkratu -> Vairanchya -> Kamalasan -> Shamvarti -> Shraddhdev -> Pitravardhan -> Somdat -> Somvardhan -> Avatans -> Pratans -> Paratans -> Ayatans -> Samatans -> Anutans -> Adhitans -> Abhitans -> Samuttans -> Tans -> Dushyant -> Bharat -> Mahabali -> Bharadwaj

Which one is correct? Both are supposed to be different janmajeyas, but did both have a son named pracinvan and a grandson named praveer?

Does Brahma producing a mind-born son, and Atri producing Chandra from his eye, mean something other than the literal (some other meaning?)

Were the Yadus originally iranians / aNarya?

• The ethnonyms of the enemies of the Vedic Aryans, the DAsas (Iranian Daha, known to Greco-Roman authors as Daai, Dahae), Dasyus (Iranian dahyu, 'tribe', esp. hostile nomadic tribe) and Panis (Greek Parnoi), as unmistakably the names of Iranian tribes.

..

‣ the explicit evidence of the geographical data given in the same Vedic texts, (which) locate(s) the interaction with the DAsas and Dasyus in Panjab. From the identification of the DAsas and Dasyus as Iranians, it could be deduced that these Iranian tribes have lived in India for a while.

• Shrikant Talageri's survey (in his book 'The Rg-Veda, a Historical Analysis') of the relative chronology of all Rg-Vedic kings and poets has been based exclusively on the internal textual evidence, and yields a completely consistent chronology.

‣ Its main finding is that the geographical gradient of Vedic Aryan culture in its Rg-Vedic stage is from east to west, with the eastern river GangA appearing a few times in the older passages (written by the oldest poets mentioning the oldest kings),

‣ and the western river Indus appearing in later parts of the book (written by descendents of the oldest poets mentioning descendents of the oldest kings).
Cud this (also) mean that the iranians moved to the gangetic basin a very long time back in antiquity; and later a section moved from east to west AFTER the development of vedic orthopraxy? Any possible time-frames for this?


..
• More probably these words designate the Vedic people’s white-skinned cousins, who at one point became their enemies, for both terms exist in Iranian, 'dahae' being one of the Iranian tribes, and 'dahyu' meaning 'tribe, nation'.

• The original meaning of dAsa, long preserved in the Khotanese dialect of Iranian, is 'man'; it is used in this sense in the Vedic names DivodAs, 'divine man' and SudAs, 'good man'.

• In Iranian, it always preserved its neutral or positive meaning, it is only in late-Vedic that it acquired a hostile and ultimately a degrading connotation. Strangely a similar evolution has taken place in Greek, where 'doulos--slave', is an evolute of 'doselos', from 'dos-', the IE root of dAsa.

• The post-Vedic evolution in meaning from an ethnic name to 'servant' does not necessarily point to enslavement of enemies; no military event of such nature and relating to the word, dAsa is mentioned in the Vedic literature.

• Instead of seeing the Vedic people as warriors, we may see them as a prosperous merchant population which at some stage, in a perfectly normal economic development, attracted the inflow of neighbouring populations as guestworkers willing to do the menial work, the way the Biblical twelve sons of Jacob went to Egypt of their own free will, where their children became a class of menial workers.

• But it is admittedly just as likely that the evolution was from 'enemy' through 'captive' to 'slave'. Whatever the scenario of their social degradation may have been, nothing in the Vedic text shows that the DAsas were dark, nor that they were aboriginals as opposed to invaders.
Any further reasons why we cud consider the Vedic people as merchants? The evolution of the Dasas from "enemy to captive to slave" is interesting.

Asura is the original Indo-Iranian and Vedic term for 'Lord', a form of address both for the gods and for people of rank.

• The late- and post-Vedic concept of DevAsurasaMgrAma, usually translated as 'war between Devas/gods and Asuras/demons', has led to the notion that this represents a war between two categories of gods, comparable to the Germanic Aesir and Wanir, or to the warring Gods and Titans of Greek mythology.

• However, there never existed a separate category of celestial beings called Asuras; the Devas themselves were originally addressed as Asura.

• At this point, we have to give credit to the invasionists for identifying the DevAsurasaMgrAma as essentially a political struggle between two nations using their respective religious terminology as a banner. However, the Asura-worshippers, or Asuras for short, are not the non-Aryan aboriginals of whom we merely assume that they must have worshipped Asura; they are the nation known to worship Asura, or in their own dialect Ahura (epithet Mazda, so 'wise Lord'), the usual Iranian term for the Vedic god VaruNa, god of the cosmic order and the truth (rta/arta).

• The religious difference between Iranians and Vedic 'fire-worshippers' was a minor difference in emphasis, and had nothing to do with the causes of their conflict.

• It was only after a war over the control of prize territory in the Panjab erupted, that the term Asura got identified with the aggression of the Kashmir-based Anava/Iranian people against the Paurava/Vedic heartland in Sapta-Saindhavah, and acquired a negative, anti-Vedic or anti-Deva meaning. Conversely, it must have been on that same occasion that the Iranians turned Deva/Daeva into a term for 'demon'.
When did this war for Punjab happen? Is it the Battle of the Ten Kings (dasarajna) ?

Did the demonization of Asuras have anything to do with the following supposition: - please let me know what all parts are anomalous / erroneous in this supposition:

[[Sudasa + allies = vedic Arya, followed dasyu orthopraxy (ritualism) culture, offered obeisance (fire oblations?) to Indra, was helped by Indra to defeat Yadu and his hordes.

Yadu +allies = tribes that did not offer worship, non-vedic anArya, defeated by the vedic Sudasa, made into slaves (?) were they designated shudra (?), and forced to offer obeisance to Indra / devas (?), by singing praises of their overlords (?). It is noteworthy that Krishna later defeated Indra.

There are quite a few wars in the puranas between krishna and indra. Is it possible that Indra signified the (non-moksham?) orthopraxy school; while Krishna signified the (moksham?) non-orthopraxy school ? ]]

...

• Likewise, the different functions in the social spectrum are allotted a member of the colour spectrum: the menial (tAmasika) ShUdras are symbolically 'black', the heroic (rAjasika) KShatriyas are 'red', and the truth-loving (sAttvika) Brahmins are 'white'; in addition, the entrepreneurial Vaishyas are considered to have a mixture of qualities, and are allotted the colour yellow.

‣ This sense of 'colour' has nothing to do with skin colour, as should also be evident from the ancient use of the same colour code among the all-white Germanic peoples.

• Moreover, 'colour' might even not be the original, Vedic meaning of varNa. Reformist Hindus eager to disentangle the institution of varNa from any doctrines of genetic determinism, derive it from the root var--choose (as in svayamvara--a girl’s own choice of a husband, with the implication

that one’s varna is not a matter of birth but of personal choice. This seems to tally with Stanley Insler’s rendering, in his classic translation of The GAthAs of Zarathushtra, of the corresponding Avestan term varna as 'preference' (which other translators sometimes stretch to mean 'conviction', 'religious affiliation'). But we believe that the root meaning is even simpler.

• In the Rg-Veda, the word varNa usually (17 out of 22 times) refers to the 'lustre' (i.e. "one’s own typical light", a meaning obviously related to 'colour') of specified gods: UShA, Agni, Soma, etc. As for the remaining cases,

‣ in 3:34:5 and 9:71:2 it indicates the lustrous colour of the sky at dawn.

‣ In 1:104:2 and 2:12:4, reference is only to quelling the varNa of the DAsas, meaning "the DAsas’ luster" (in the first case, Ralph Griffith translates it as 'the fury of the DAsa').

‣ Finally, in the erotic Rg-Vedic hymn 1:179, verse 6, where Agastya, in doing the needful with his wife Lopamudra to obtain progeny, is said to satisfy 'both varNas', this is understood by some as referring quite plainly to the two families of husband and wife, who rejoice in the arrival of a grandchild. Since the hymn mentions the conflict between sexuality and asceticism, others interpret it as meaning "both paths (of worldliness and world-renunciation)". At any rate, there is simply no question of reading a racist meaning into it.
So cud this mean that the vedic dasyu had no varna (by birth) system? But instead it was introduced into the system after the merger with the yadus?

Regards.
 
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blood group a = brahmana

blood group b = kshatriya

blood group ab = vaishya

blood group o = shudra.
 
Dear Anand,

If you say Vedas teach love and compassion, so do Bible and Quran. In as much as you want to point to the peaceful teachings contained in the Hindu scriptures and gloss over the horrendous varna/caste, a Muslim or a Christian also can point to the peace loving passages of Quran and Bible, and gloss over their horrendous conduct. If you claim your poison is less toxic than theirs, then, they are entitled to a similar but reciprocal claim.

Humanity will be better off without any poison at all.

Whatever you may say about Islam and Christianity, it really does not say anything about the point that a ban on conversion is untenable in a modern liberal democratic nation. This is what I want to rest on.

A few points:
[1] The sword of Chola military took Hinudism to places like Bali, Thailand, Cambodia, etc.
[2] If Ramanuja's bio is to be believed, no, not even the upper caste Hindus lived in harmony among themselves. Still they don't.
[3] What Christians must do first is their business.

Cheers!
 
hinduism formerly known as sanathana dharma,is the umbrella organisation of all religions in the world.this simple truth if understood,many mis-understandings will go.ekam sath vipra bahu vadanthi,is from our scriptures.nirguna brahman is the sarva sakshi bhagavan.omnipotent omniscient ..................wahay guru ki jai.
 
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