QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

[anandb]

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Dear Shri.Nara

Dear Anand,

If you say Vedas teach love and compassion, so do Bible and Quran. In as much as you want to point to the peaceful teachings contained in the Hindu scriptures and gloss over the horrendous varna/caste, a Muslim or a Christian also can point to the peace loving passages of Quran and Bible, and gloss over their horrendous conduct. If you claim your poison is less toxic than theirs, then, they are entitled to a similar but reciprocal claim.

Shri. Nara, Varna/caste being horrendous is just your opinion so I will not go into it. If you equate violence in Hinduism with the violence of the Abrahamic faiths then you need to read the scriptures of all the faiths all over again. Just looking at the intent of the Abrahamic faiths to convert clearly shows that they think only their path is right, is superior and non-believers can go to hell in spite of the fact that these faiths started only 2000 years back in a history of humanity dating centuries before that. What kind of logic is that and I am surprised you are arguing in favor of that? Unless there is some form of scriptural authority in these religions, it will not make these religions behave in the manner they are behaving. With my limited knowledge, I don’t find any kind of violence advocated in our Sruti. I know that you will quote the Dharmashastras advocating violence but our revered Acahryas’ position is anything which violates the spirit of the Sruti is invalid. Plus look into history of violence in all the faiths and come to your own judgment.
Humanity will be better off without any poison at all.

Whatever you may say about Islam and Christianity, it really does not say anything about the point that a ban on conversion is untenable in a modern liberal democratic nation. This is what I want to rest on.

I am amazed at your viewpoint. There are many more ways of achieving the status of a modern liberal democratic nation and conversion is definitely not one among them. Conversion causes nothing but resentment, ill-will and finally hatred. In fact it is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode.

A few points:
[1] The sword of Chola military took Hinudism to places like Bali, Thailand, Cambodia, etc.

Probably you are trying to create new “history” here. You need to understand the differences between expansion of the ancient Indian kingdoms and the expansion of the Islamic or Christian empires. The Kshatriya ruler no doubt aimed at territorial expansion as that was a primary duty of a Kshatriya. But still dharmic principles were followed. For ex, some of the principles were never to harm unharmed or wounded soldiers, women folk or the civilian population, not to destroy or plunder the wealth of the captured country and so on. If you care to look, examples abound of how emissaries were initially sent to kingdoms to surrender peacefully and if at all a war happened it was only between soldiers. None of these principles were followed in the conquest of the Americas, Africas or Australia not to say the plunder of India by the Mughals and the British. If you do want to read, I am giving you
The links of this website giving extensive quotes by Indologists about how the Indian influence came about in modern Southeast Asia known anciently in our scriptures as Swarnabhumi or Swarnadvip. If this does not make you proud as an Indian then I have nothing to say.

Hindu Wisdom - Suvarnabhumi

[2] If Ramanuja's bio is to be believed, no, not even the upper caste Hindus lived in harmony among themselves. Still they don't.

I cannot comment as I hardly know anything about Ramanuja. All I can say is if upper caste Hindus are fighting, how Hinduism or its scriptures can be blamed? If we have this mindset, then we can never own up and take responsibility for what we do but just blame god, scriptures, religion etc.

[3] What Christians must do first is their business.

All I am requesting is this? Why don’t you give the benefit of doubt to Hindus at least once for a change? If you are against all religions, it is fine with me. But then you should be impartial and not take sides. Or probably you are taking their side as there is no one to defend their viewpoint in this forum. If that is so, I do understand.

Cheers![/QUOTE]

 

[saidevo]

namaste Anand.

It is a delight to read your powerful arguments about Hinduism vis-a-vis Abrahamic religions. As you said in your post no.201, "Conversion causes nothing but resentment, ill-will and finally hatred. In fact it is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode." Conversion also divides the Hindu families, pitting father against son, husband against wife and so on, even as Jesus said in the Bible.

It is naive to think that the Abrahamic religions indulge in conversion with a good intention towards the non-believers that they don't have to go to hell. I have already given some sample verses from the Bible and Quran in my post no.159, which establish their motive for conversion beyond doubt. On this account and the points noted in the paragraph above, conversion by coercion and material incentives by these religions MUST be banned in India, the heartland of Hinduism.

Because of the absence of any teachings about the spiritual concepts of the manas--mind, and buddhi--intellect, in the Abrahamic scriptures, they discourage the individual follower to think independently of their scriptures. Those who do, invariably get out of the religion. There is no concept of vichAraNa--inquiry, dhyAna--meditation and Atma-vidyA--Self-Realization, in the Abrahamic religions. They impose and rely on blind faith on the part of their followers who are aggressively controlled by their churches and mosques.

Please do continue to give your valuable points in the discussions.

 

[happyhindu]

Well written Anand.

A few questions:

I know that you will quote the Dharmashastras advocating violence but our revered Acahryas’ position is anything which violates the spirit of the Sruti is invalid.

Thankyou Anand. But are you sure abt this? If am not wrong the tradition follwed is:
a) Uttara Mimansa view: Shruti is more valid than Smrithi. If there is a conflict b/w Shruti and Smrithi, then Shurti is to be followed.
b) Purva Mimansa view: Smrithi is equally important as Shruti. Nothing in the Smrithi is wrong.
Purva Mimansa follwoers (smarthas) who took over the Uttara Mimansa matts are followers of Smrithis.
Cud you clarify if the standpoint of acharyas is that Shruti comes first, and Smrithi is only next.

The Kshatriya ruler no doubt aimed at territorial expansion as that was a primary duty of a Kshatriya. But still dharmic principles were followed. For ex, some of the principles were never to harm unharmed or wounded soldiers, women folk or the civilian population, not to destroy or plunder the wealth of the captured country and so on.

My dear Anand, war has always legitimaized plundering the wealth of the victim. Rakshasa Vivaha (obtaining wives as war booties as prizes for winning wars) is considered a valid vivaha by the dharmashastras for kshatriyas. And it was very much in vogue. Am sure you read in puranas about kings who wud defeat a kingdom and then marry the princess of the defeated kingdoms. Why wealth, even women were plundered.

This is from the Arthashastra:

Whereas one can satisfy a righteous conqueror simply by submitting to his rule, one must surrender "land and goods" as well as money in order to satisfy a greedy conqueror. The demoniacal conqueror, however, will stop only when he has seized "land, goods, sons, wives and life."
Kautilya, Arthasastra, 12.1.11-16: 460

A weak king must give up everything if it is inevitable, but he must find a way to survive to fight another day, preserving "his body, not wealth; for, what regret can there be for wealth that is impermanent? Kautilya, Arthasastra, 12.1.32: 462.

Kautilya commented that if one must kill a dangerous person, the king must leave his property untouched and shall not covet the land, property, sons or wives of the slain one. Kautilya, Arthasastra, 7.16.26: 374.

Read more abt women as weapons of war: Roger Boesche - Kautilya's Arthasastra on War and Diplomacy in Ancient India - Journal of Military History 67:1

The humanitarian approach prescribed by Kautilya for the defeated troops and the defenseless men, is most commendable - his is a shastra, most part of which, remains eternal. Whatever maybe the rules of war, are tehre any guarantees that they were followed. Obviously atleast the demonical kings did not.....atleast Indra did not really seem to keep off from women...

You live in an ideal world, my dear Anand where anyone wud want to live.

Am reminded of the adage being used by one poster:
Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise

Regards.

 

[anandb]

namaste Anand.

It is a delight to read your powerful arguments about Hinduism vis-a-vis Abrahamic religions. As you said in your post no.201, "Conversion causes nothing but resentment, ill-will and finally hatred. In fact it is a ticking time bomb waiting to explode." Conversion also divides the Hindu families, pitting father against son, husband against wife and so on, even as Jesus said in the Bible.

It is naive to think that the Abrahamic religions indulge in conversion with a good intention towards the non-believers that they don't have to go to hell. I have already given some sample verses from the Bible and Quran in my post no.159, which establish their motive for conversion beyond doubt. On this account and the points noted in the paragraph above, conversion by coercion and material incentives by these religions MUST be banned in India, the heartland of Hinduism.

Because of the absence of any teachings about the spiritual concepts of the manas--mind, and buddhi--intellect, in the Abrahamic scriptures, they discourage the individual follower to think independently of their scriptures. Those who do, invariably get out of the religion. There is no concept of vichAraNa--inquiry, dhyAna--meditation and Atma-vidyA--Self-Realization, in the Abrahamic religions. They impose and rely on blind faith on the part of their followers who are aggressively controlled by their churches and mosques.

Please do continue to give your valuable points in the discussions.

Thanks Shri. Saidevo. If you have not already read N.S. Rajaram's book "The Dead Sea Scrolls and the crisis of Christianity", please do so. I am quoting certain sections from this book

The so-called 'Thailand Report on the Hindus' published in 1980 by Lausanne Committee for World Evangelisalion based in Wheaton, Illinois. or the Report of the Consultation on World Evangelization: Mini-Consultation on Reaching the Hindus - has chapters like 'Biblical Framework for Hindu Evangelization', 'Hindrances to the Evangelization of Hindus',
'Strategic Planning for Evangelization of Hindus' and others in a similar vein that give
a clear idea of its scope and intentions. The report goes on to observe:

We rejoice in the fact that the saving Word of God preached faithfully by God's servants has brought about a Christian population of 19 million people in India. However we are conscious that God longs for the whole Hindu people to know Jesus Christ and live under
his Lordship... We regret that, after so many years of sincere effort by so many faithful people, the number of Christians in India is still less than 3% of the population. Further, the dispersed Hindus in other parts of the world have been largely neglected by the Christian communities.

Here is what the Belgian scholar Koenraad Elst has to say about the current state (early 1990s) of Christianity in Europe (Koenraad Elst, Psychology of Prophetism, New Delhi, Voice of India, 1993) -

"Anyone who cares to look, can see that Christianity is in steep decline. This is especially the case in Europe, where church attendance levels in many countries have fallen below 10% or even 5 %... Even more ominous for the survival of Christianity is the decline in the priestly vocations. Many parishes that used to have two to three parish priests now have none, so that the Sunday Service now has to be conducted by a visiting priest, who has an ever fuller agenda as his colleagues keep dying, retiring or abandoning the
priesthood without being replaced...Outside observers may join the Church leadership in asking why this decline is taking place. As a participant observer of the emptying of the churches in Europe, I will argue that certain circumstances and tactical mistakes may have accelerated the process, but the fundamental reason for the decline is intrinsic to the nature of Christian faith... Any attempt to bridge the gap between modernity and Christian faith has only underlined their incompatibility. ... The notion that there is a single God, Creator of the universe, who is interfering with his Creation by sending messages to privileged spokespersons called prophets, flies in the face of rationality. People will accept that reason isn't everything, but not that your central belief system is so militantly opposed to reason. (Elst, pp. 1-2)
Church teaching had overruled reason and declared its own dogmas, inspired directly by the Holy Spirit, to be above anything the human mind could think up or envision. ...The idea that humanity's intrinsic imperfection or sinfulness had been remedied by Christ's
crucifixion was so absurd... that it could only be upheld as Christianity's basic dogma by declaring reason incompetent. (Elst, p. 3)"

The Dead Sea Scrolls crisis is one of the greatest scandals confronting this faith. This book by Rajaram is a must read as it lays bare the history and the working of the Vatican.

Less said about the other Semitic faith the better. I used to visit a site run by ex-muslims called islam-watch. org or something similar before they banned it here. These guys used to call their holy book as Hitler's War Manual.

I don't have anything against these faiths but I think I have a right to get upset if they come promising salvation to our folk without cleaning up their stinking backyard.

thanks

 

[saidevo]

Here is one version of what the dream of a 'casteless', progressive and equitable Utopian society under a World State can come to.

• This World State would be based on the anticipated scientific developments in reproductive technology and sleep-learning.

• The vast majority of the population is unified under The World State, an eternally peaceful, stable global society in which goods and resources are plentiful (because the population is permanently limited to no more than two billion people) and everyone is happy.

• This would mean that in The World State, people would typically die at age 60, after having maintained good health and youthfulness their whole life.

‣ The State-administered death is not feared, since it would be free of physical suffering.

‣ Anyone reflecting upon death is reassured by the knowledge that everyone is happy, and that society goes on.

‣ There would be no mourning either, since no one has family.

• The maxim "everyone belongs to everyone else" is repeated often, and the idea of a "family" is considered pornographic; sexual competition and emotional, romantic relationships are rendered obsolete because they are no longer needed.

• Marriage, natural birth, parenthood, and pregnancy are considered too obscene to be mentioned in casual conversation. Thus, society has developed a new idea of reproductive comprehension.

• Recreational sex is an integral part of society. According to The World State, sex is a social activity, rather than a means of reproduction, and sexual activity is encouraged from early childhood.

• What about the procreation of mankind then? The few women who can reproduce are conditioned to use birth control (a "Malthusian belt", resembling a cartridge belt holding "the regulation supply of contraceptives", is a popular fashion accessory).

• Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are decanted and raised in Hatcheries and Conditioning Centres. Children are hatched in slow-moving, lab-conditioned assembly lines. After they are hatched and begin to grow, they will be conditioned and trained to define their personalities.

• All members of society are conditioned in childhood to hold the values that the World State idealizes, which improves societal stability and quality of life.

‣ Constant consumption is the bedrock of stability for the World State. Children are conditioned from birth to value consumption with such platitudes as "ending is better than mending," i.e., buy a new one instead of fixing the old one.

‣ Everyone is encouraged to consume the ubiquitous drug named soma. Soma is a hallucinogen that takes users on enjoyable, hangover-free "holidays", and it was developed expressly for this purpose. It is also stated that it replicates religious experiences, eliminating the need for religion.

• Spending time alone is considered an outrageous waste of time and money. Admitting to wanting to be an individual is shocking, horrifying, and embarrassing.

Such will be the 'Brave, New World', which will be under the control of a World State, whose objective in turn is to make people happy and feel equal with everyone else.

There is a catch, however...

In order that the Administration of The World State is done flawlessly, with no manual ruler-ruled constraints, there needs must be some distinction between the different orders of the citizens. There needs to be, typically, FIVE CASTES: Alphas, Betas, Gammas, Deltas, and Epsilons, with each caste further split into Plus and Minus members.

• The caste of the child will be decided at birth, that is when it is hatched, in the Hatchery. And conditioning will make the citizen feel equal within the caste and think his/her caste is the highest in the order.

• The highest caste--alpha--is allowed to develop naturally while it matures in its "decanting bottle".

• The lower castes are treated to chemical interference to cause arrested development in intelligence or physical growth.

• Each Alpha or Beta is the product of one fertilized egg developing into one fetus.

• Members of other castes are not unique but are instead created using the Bokanovsky process which enables a single egg to spawn up to 96 children and one ovary to produce thousands of children.

• This rapid production of specialized children bolsters the efficiency of society. The hypnopaedic process is the process in which they teach the embryos all of the lessons they want them to know.

• The conditioning system eliminates the need for professional competitiveness; people are literally bred to do their jobs and cannot desire another.

• There is no competition within castes; each caste member receives the same food, housing, and soma rationing as every other member of that caste.

• There is no desire to change one's caste, largely because a person's sleep-conditioning teaches that his or her caste is superior to the other four.

• To grow closer with members of the same class, citizens participate in mock religious services called Solidarity Services, in which twelve people consume large quantities of soma and sing hymns. The ritual progresses through group hypnosis and climaxes in an orgy. In geographic areas nonconducive to easy living and consumption, securely contained groups of "savages" are left to their own devices.

This version of the Utopia, or rather Dystopia if you prefer, is from the brilliant and chilling novel by Aldous Huxley titled 'Brave New World' published in 1932. It can be downloaded at: http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/resources/english/etext-project/huxley/bravenewworld.pdf

This novel is a strong rejoinder that mankind cannot remain without distinctions akin to the varNa and caste system, in the multi-religious world of today, monopolistically-agressive religious domination dreamed for tomorrow, or a religionless utopian/dystopian soceity monitored by Science and Technology in the distant or nor-so-distant future.

**********

 

[anandb]

Well written Anand.

Welcome back Shrimati HH. Did not see you here for quite some time

A few questions:


Thankyou Anand. But are you sure abt this? If am not wrong the tradition follwed is:
a) Uttara Mimansa view: Shruti is more valid than Smrithi. If there is a conflict b/w Shruti and Smrithi, then Shurti is to be followed.
b) Purva Mimansa view: Smrithi is equally important as Shruti. Nothing in the Smrithi is wrong.
Purva Mimansa follwoers (smarthas) who took over the Uttara Mimansa matts are followers of Smrithis.
Cud you clarify if the standpoint of acharyas is that Shruti comes first, and Smrithi is only next.

HH, We had gone through this before extensively. You know my position and I know yours and there is no point repeating this all over again as it does not add any value.

My dear Anand, war has always legitimaized plundering the wealth of the victim. Rakshasa Vivaha (obtaining wives as war booties as prizes for winning wars) is considered a valid vivaha by the dharmashastras for kshatriyas. And it was very much in vogue. Am sure you read in puranas about kings who wud defeat a kingdom and then marry the princess of the defeated kingdoms. Why wealth, even women were plundered.

Not war in ancient India. There could be a few exceptions in reality but that was not the standard. Manusmiriti talks about 8 different types of marriages - the best to the worst. Your Rakshasa Vivaha occupies the 7th position hardly an ideal form of marriage. But the definition of it is the groom still has the consent of the bride to marry her so it is not equal to the Mughal setting his amorous eyes on a Rajput wife. The latter example has no parallel in our history because you are eying another man's wife.

This is from the Arthashastra:

The humanitarian approach prescribed by Kautilya for the defeated troops and the defenseless men, is most commendable - his is a shastra, most part of which, remains eternal. Whatever maybe the rules of war, are tehre any guarantees that they were followed. Obviously atleast the demonical kings did not.....atleast Indra did not really seem to keep off from women...

Is Arthasastra part of the Smiriti? In common parlance Kautilya was associated with cunning or kuyukti. He might have written a great war manual but if he suggested what "Roger Boesche" says he has then he should be a great inspiration for early Abrahamic faith. Why not try and obtain a original copy of the Arthasastra?

You live in an ideal world, my dear Anand where anyone wud want to live.

Oh, HH. How I wish to live in an ideal world a Utopia of sorts. Thanks for reminding me about my goodness.

Am reminded of the adage being used by one poster:
Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise

Brilliantly said. Applies to everyone.

Regards.[/QUOTE]

 

[saidevo]

namaste HappyHindu.

Here is what I can reply to your post no.197:

"Did the anAryas have varNa groupings?"

The Aryas did not have to worry about this, but probably the anAryas had their own occupational classifications among themselves.

"Generally am not too comfortable with the puranas wrt to geneology accuracy. For example: both these lists are from the Bhavishya purana for the lineage of Praveer."

• As you are perhaps aware, bhaviShya purANam was heavily corrupted in the British colonnial rule. To my scanty knowledge, shrImad bhAgavadam and harivaMsha are considered to be reliable sources of Hindu genealogy.

• Let us note that in the Hindu tradition, a grandson is usually named after the paternal grandfather, so there is every possibility of kings with identifical names at different periods of time.

Thus our purANas in their original texts have be researched well to arrive at the proper genealogy. svAmi prakAshAnanda has done an extensive research about it: check the articles 51 to 53 here: Site Map - Encyclopedia of Authentic Hinduism

• KAnchi ParamAchArya was of the opinion that if our purANas and sthala purANas are researched properly, much of the history of our ancient India can be arrived at. For example, the sacred place kumbakONam has stunning legends associated with it: those who seek to dismiss it as mythology, can they say how the name of the place came into being?

As to your other questions, perhaps some more knowledegable members might throw light or you may find the answers by your own research eventually, in which case, please let us know your findings.

 

[Nara]

Dear Anand, I am sure you have heard of கலிங்கத்துப் பரணி, an ode to violence. During those days when kings went on expeditions they took along bards to sing the praise of their exploits. It was a culture that glorified violence with such adage as விழுப்புண் படாத நாள் எல்லாம் வீண் நாள்.

Emperor Ashoka, who must have been quite used violence being a Kshatriya and a warrior, was so repulsed by the carnage he abandoned all wars and became a follower of Buddha.

Dear sister HH has also pointed to the violence the Purnas glorify. Was it not Aswaththama who went as far as killing the unborn baby of the already dead Abhimanyu. The Vedic Indra himself could very well be an invading plunderer if those who claim genetic connection to northwest Asian Caucasians are to be believed.

So, we cannot be so sanguine about our own violent past.

But what you so casually brush aside is the most insidious of horrendous outrages, namely, the centuries of caste based breaking and subjugation of a large swath of population, that leaves the victims generations after generations blaming themselves and their own karma for their state. Thiruvalluvar says,

தீயினால் சுட்டபுண் உள்ஆறும் ஆறாதே
நாவினால் சுட்ட வடு.
​

The caste/varna based violence, even in cases where it was not physical, hurts the very essence of a human being, and that is why I argue that the varna/caste system is a horrendous outrage. You want to gloss over it, just like the Christians and Muslims gloss over their repulsive conduct.

You seem to agree with me when I criticize the others, but want me to be more understanding when it is your own religion. But, I am an equal opportunity offender .

Your arguments, however powerful they may be, is in its essence nothing more than an assertion that your poison is better than the poison of others. Have it your way, but I don't want any poison at all.

Finally, let me state one more time, the point of this exchange is banning conversion. It is not about supporting conversion. I am as much, or even more against Christian missionaries coming in and converting gullible, but wronged Dalits. I happen to think the best way to counter this trend is to destroy caste, or at least treat them with respect and kindness. That is what one should do if he/she feels resentment, ill-will and hatred at other people converting.

Banning conversions by law will make us more like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia than a liberal democracy that values freedom.

Cheers!

 

[saidevo]

namaste NN.

A brief about Sathya Sai Baba's teachings on varNa and caste
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

hinduism formerly known as sanathana dharma,is the umbrella organisation of all religions in the world.this simple truth if understood,many mis-understandings will go.ekam sath vipra bahu vadanthi,is from our scriptures.nirguna brahman is the sarva sakshi bhagavan.omnipotent omniscient ..................wahay guru ki jai.

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara said

I happen to think the best way to counter this trend is to destroy caste, or at least treat them with respect and kindness. That is what one should do if he/she feels resentment, ill-will and hatred at other people converting.

Personally I am involved with some activities in my native village as well in a village school near Chennai where I am prevailing upon every body to treat the daliths with dignity and Kindness. I am also treating them as equals in my business with all other communities.

But the important point here is `Daliths' should be empowered with better education. Missionaries are attempting to do that but except few, most of the Hindu outfits are very much lagging behind. Medical support is another area where missionaries score much better than Hindu outfits.

In one village near Chennai - Pazhaverkadu, Vidyanidhi Trust we are able to see the difference and the missionaries have started packing and leaving. The place is tsunami affected and inhibited by fishermen community.

All the best

 

[nachi naga]

namaste NN.

A brief about Sathya Sai Baba's teachings on varNa and caste
Hindu Dharma Forums - View Single Post - Bhagavad Gita: Varna system misunderstanding

thanks saidevo,super post by Ekanta..sairam.

 

[anandb]

Dear Anand, I am sure you have heard of கலிங்கத்துப் பரணி, an ode to violence. During those days when kings went on expeditions they took along bards to sing the praise of their exploits. It was a culture that glorified violence with such adage as விழுப்புண் படாத நாள் எல்லாம் வீண் நாள்.

Emperor Ashoka, who must have been quite used violence being a Kshatriya and a warrior, was so repulsed by the carnage he abandoned all wars and became a follower of Buddha.

Shri. Nara, I don’t understand one thing. If there is a clan called Kshatriya and the dharma of that clan is territorial expansion and kings go to war with each other, isn’t it inevitable that there will be violence? The point I am stressing is the approach to war and violence between our kshatriyas and say the Mughals or Genghis Khan or the Spanish Armada and so on. When it came to war there were codes of conduct to be followed and by and large these were followed to my understanding.

Dear sister HH has also pointed to the violence the Purnas glorify. Was it not Aswaththama who went as far as killing the unborn baby of the already dead Abhimanyu. The Vedic Indra himself could very well be an invading plunderer if those who claim genetic connection to northwest Asian Caucasians are to be believed.

So, we cannot be so sanguine about our own violent past.

It is true that dharmic principles of war were forsaken by both sides during Kurukshetra probably more by the Kauravas than the Pandavas. Therein lies the lessons for all of us to learn. As I pointed out earlier exceptions will always be there but you need to look into our entire history and not just cases in isolation. If Hinduism which is older than other religions had expanded by the sword we would probably be occupying more land now than the Islamic or Christian world.

But what you so casually brush aside is the most insidious of horrendous outrages, namely, the centuries of caste based breaking and subjugation of a large swath of population, that leaves the victims generations after generations blaming themselves and their own karma for their state. Thiruvalluvar says,

தீயினால் சுட்டபுண் உள்ஆறும் ஆறாதே
நாவினால் சுட்ட வடு.
​

The caste/varna based violence, even in cases where it was not physical, hurts the very essence of a human being, and that is why I argue that the varna/caste system is a horrendous outrage. You want to gloss over it, just like the Christians and Muslims gloss over their repulsive conduct.

You seem to agree with me when I criticize the others, but want me to be more understanding when it is your own religion. But, I am an equal opportunity offender .

The point I have always emphasized is the varna/caste system in the days of yore was not meant to perpetuate differences and I am totally convinced about it. I know you are not convinced but that is life. Both of us can live with our convictions. BTW, I have hardly agreed with you on any issue except on the issue of USA having hegemonistic ambitions.

Your arguments, however powerful they may be, is in its essence nothing more than an assertion that your poison is better than the poison of others. Have it your way, but I don't want any poison at all.

This is just word play. What I intend to say is mine is “honey” compared to the other’s “poison”.

Finally, let me state one more time, the point of this exchange is banning conversion. It is not about supporting conversion. I am as much, or even more against Christian missionaries coming in and converting gullible, but wronged Dalits. I happen to think the best way to counter this trend is to destroy caste, or at least treat them with respect and kindness. That is what one should do if he/she feels resentment, ill-will and hatred at other people converting.

There is something called as a level playing field. When it comes to conversion, it is not level as Hindus don’t believe in it compared to the Semitic faiths. The point here is don’t come into my country and try to convert my people with inducements and promise to salvation because disgustingly even after conversion the state of Dalit Christians and Muslims is pretty bad. BTW, they should not even be called as dalits because there is no casteism in the Semitic faiths. And what happened to the inducements and salvation? These people are still poor. And why the hell Syrian Christians are not allowing these Dalits into their churches? The Deoband recently issues a series of fatwas discriminating against their women so why the heck they ridicule Hinduism? This is what I keep saying about cleaning up your (I mean theirs) stinking backyard first. The playing field is not level because while the poor Hindus are converted supposedly because Hinduism is not giving them a fair deal, their status is probably the same or worse after conversion. I know for a fact that Muslims from the sub-continent are treated like crap by the Gulf nationals. Treating people with respect and kindness is a quality which has to be developed innately irrespective of caste or economic status. It has to come by empowering people with education and economic status. It has to be supplemented by the right laws and punishment if those laws are violated. Moral values should be taught right from childhood to respect and treat others kindly meaning this should form part of the academic curriculum. The parents should do their a lot as well. There are so many factors at play. But if someone is going to tell me that just conversion is the magic wand for the ills of the poor low caste Hindus, they should be dreaming with eyes wide open.

Banning conversions by law will make us more like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia than a liberal democracy that values freedom.

Believe me, Sir, let us assume Hindu organizations go all out and try to convert people into Hindus in the West. Do you think the Western governments will be quiet? Why is banning the face veil becoming an issue suddenly in Europe? The fact is Islam is growing in the West especially in Europe and the governments need measures to counter it. You can call me discriminative if I say conversion is to be banned only in India but I am not saying that. It should be worldwide. Even Hindus should not convert others into my religion. If you want to appreciate Hinduism do it from outside. You are welcome to attend bhajans or poojas at my home but don’t forsake your religion. Be true to your religion but you can still appreciate the other religion. Every religion needs its space. Hindus, Christians and Muslims comprise the major ones but there are lots of minor ones with their own traditions, customs and values. Don’t make it all look like one big global village. But I know all this is pipe dream. Christianity and Islam are huge in terms of numbers. The former comes with awesome military power and the latter with awesome money power and their common goal is to offer salvation to non-believers. Only Narayana can save the Hindus.

Apologies for my rambling.

I rest my case with this reply as I have said all I wanted to say.

thanks