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QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

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... or is this wishful thinking on my part?

Dear K, I am reminded of a story from MB -- Dronacharya sent out Yudishtra and Duryodana into the same town and asked them to come back when they find the first person who is, (i) good in the case of Duryodana, and (ii) bad in the case of Yudishtra. Well, you can guess the ending, they both came back empty handed at day's end.

If the town is the metaphorical Sodom and Gomorrah, I don't mind being Duryodana. (Have I mixed all the metophors or are there any left :))

Cheers!
 
nara,

my challenge still stands.

would you be the first, to go through the proverbial looking glass, and see things in reverse?

i am quite sure you will be upto the challenge.

once one candidate of either faction makes a sincere attempt to my satisfaction, i am willing to take on a role mutually agreed to by both of youse.

how about that?
 
Sri.Kunjuppu said:-

if both groups would venture out of their fences, and probe into the psyche of the other, perhaps we could all come to meeting points and shake hands.
Greetings. I do not consider myself belonging to any group as such. I just voice my frank opinions. I noticed the challenge posed by you. I welcome your thoughts. It is an interesting invitation indeed. I will be more than happy to respond to that challenge. But, I request you to take my background into consideration too, please. I am not a scholar, born in a village. I can only write from what I saw and experienced from my village..so, my observations may sound too personal, most times.

But before I start that, I like you to hear someone else who ventured out side the fence...it is really very interesting. I present Rev.Tom Honey, the pastor of Exeter Cathedral, Oxford. He talks about 'who is God?'.

Tom Honey on God and the tsunami | Video on TED.com

Cheers!
 
Sri.Kunjuppu said :-

for nara, raghy: to enunciate what good they found in the caste system
Sri.Kunjuppu,

I will be recollecting my exposure with various castes in my village. I am sorry; that's all I know. I am not a learned person. I don't want to 'assume' things from the information I gathered in the later part of my life when I left my village. (of course, I may add some personal experiences in the later part of my life, if appropriate). This may be a string of few posts; I may not be able to write all of them in one post. Shall we say, one enunciation at a time?

Caste system developed a set of very humble persons. I always used to wonder about the politness exhibited by the Harijans; I was a kid, but even the Harijan elders never showed the conviction showed by me. Any youngster who showed any conviction was turned down by the elders. When I asked them about it, they said 'this is the way for us!'.
Now, what is good about it? Our qualities are formed by gene mutations. (Reference - Spencer Wells, 3rd vidoe in 'why are we here' thread). Gene mutations may cause extremely good things (like a person with a very high IQ) or no so good thing (a fish with two heads). In my opinion, by humbling to all the other castes, for generation after generation, for a very long time, they turned into very humble people all the time. Just to stay polite and humble, we seek meditation, yoga, counselling etc, where, they are natural polite breed! I think that is one of the good thing about caste system.

(Disclaimer - I do not support caste system).

Cheers!
 
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Dear Sri Nara and others,

Dear PVR, to a large extent what we are doing here is a sort of a "postmortem" of a Frankenstein that is still alive, kept on life support by our politicians. We can only speculate how it all started and how a four fold varna system ballooned into 4000 castes.
........
........

My view is that there existed many sub groups under the broad Varna System. But the ballooning of cast system IMHO is not the natural evolution. Its created under the pretext of Varna dharma. I want to make myself more clear, in olden days they were minding their own jobs, but only after the Europeans drained our resources, it became necessity to stick to the particular cast for bread and till date the castes are ballooning towards the lower side in itself a testimony.

We do not have inter-caste clashes and if at all are very negligible. When we compare the population and resources available its a great living without such clashes.

Dalits: why I did not want to include here, as I did not find that they WERE not created either by caste or Varna System. They exist and seek to be a part of the society. But the problem is if only hindus are dealing with them, it would have been resulted in merging in, but due to many catalysts with their agenda of their own, educate them to break in. That's why they till date face the resistance to this break-in.

We also take the instance when there was an atrocity on a dalit. Most of the cases we do not try to find why suddenly its happening. For an example, last week two dalits were killed because of a quarrel over a dog. Its all over the media now. But what about a murder of a Rajput at the hands of 10 Dalit youths and the media only will project as Dalits suppression in the near future.
Ref: Khap fear has rattled Dalits fleeing Haryana villages - India - The Times of India

Regards
 
Karma, Varna, Dharma...

Some like to think that it all happenned by chance... if it were only chance and random then a corollary is lack of intelligence, and lack of evolution.

For even evolution to have taken place, there should be intelligence and not just dumb randomness. Without intelligence or awareness or cognisance, there could not have been any progress, scientific or whatever.

Even down to the cellular level, there is a pattern, an intelligent pattern... it is impossible that they are so, due to mere random happennings. What is random at one level is definite at another; we think that only our level matters.

Again, if it were only chance happenings, then there cannot be a cause and effect relationship anywhere in this universe. All things should be happenning by chance, and not due to the efforts of one...

Hence, there is definitely a cause and effect phenomena ,infused with intelligence that runs through the entire being of the universe.
 
Dear Folks,
Continuing from my previous post...

I would advice them based on the success story of our community. Will they do?

They should stop move around like herds. Like we abandoned our agraharam, and life style, they should also abandon their identity, lifestyle. We don't voice our rights aggressively that's why we are irritating others. We are an example, how the minority should behave. Why they not take our example.

Once brahmins said to have affinity and helped within Brahmin castes, similarly, now they have many elites. Will they help their own clan?.

If we examine, all of the castes, some time are other do help their clan. why not they do? One youth every village should migrate to town and change the fortune for them and their friends instead shouting for the rights like communists which is a global failure in this global village.

When an prominent (!) Caste like us dilute and blur the line, why not they do the same when theirs and their immediate next caste member line is not so clear.


Cheers
 
Sri.Sathajihva said:-

Some like to think that it all happenned by chance... if it were only chance and random then a corollary is lack of intelligence, and lack of evolution.
Greetings. Personally I don't think that Karma theory, Varna classifications and Dharma shastras happened by chance. There must have been a significant deliberation taken place before such controlling features were introduced in a society. But it could not have taken place overnight, lest, the people would have revolted. The changes must have taken place at a very slow pace.

For even evolution to have taken place, there should be intelligence and not just dumb randomness. Without intelligence or awareness or cognisance, there could not have been any progress, scientific or whatever.
If the above quote referes to evolution of species, inteligenge must have played a huge part. Inteligence at one stage must have caused gene mutations which in turn must have produced a change to suit the needs. Good example would be the growth of web for flying squirrels, camouflage qualities for insects and lizards etc.

Cheers!
 
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Sri.PVRaman said :-

When an prominent (!) Caste like us dilute and blur the line, why not they do the same when theirs and their immediate next caste member line is not so clear.

Sri.PVR, Greetings. Kindly explain me, who are 'us' and who are 'them', please? I thought we are above such differences.

Cheers!
 
Positives of Varna system and Kula Thozhil

I want to respond to those who have commented on my post # 34. Many of you have described it as a crap/joke/hilarious using many such adjectives and phrases. Please note that I was just a "Pulavar Tharumi" of Thiruvilayaadal movie in posting this message and the person who has penned it is only accessible to me and he is surely not an ordinary mortal. I want to have comments to the point on that article which argues that the Varna system was an absolutely perfect system as long as it was working properly and everyone respected and ahdhered to it. Great wonders like huge temples (as in Thanjavur) were built throughout TN when the Caste system was in place.
I request someone to quote any pre-British text / scripture that ridicules the Varna system. Thiruvalluvar has written couplets on all the social evils like "Eating animal flesh", Alcoholism, Gambling, keeping eye on other's wife, begging, stealing and so on. He has not made any heading about the so-called social justice in any of the Thirukkural. It means that such evil of higher and lower castes was not prevailing in his times. All the Kulams were performing their Kulathozhil with dedication to soceity.

Someone pointed that "Thotti" is a Kulam and their Kulathozhil was scavenging. Scavenging was not a work in the pre-british period at all. There were no toilets or drainages during the pre-british period that required scavenging. All the arguements against Varna system were quoted from missionary agenda and there was no original Tamizh or Indian scripture (pre-British) that has ridiculed the caste system.
As doubted by Arjuna in Bhagvad Gita, all the people have come out of their varna based duties and the chaos at present is due to "Varna-Kuzhappam" resulted. It is Lord Krishna's design of system based on 4 varnas and he will surely establish the credibility of the system by another incarnation.
 
Sri.A Ramakrishnan said:-

I request someone to quote any pre-British text / scripture that ridicules the Varna system. Thiruvalluvar has written couplets on all the social evils like "Eating animal flesh", Alcoholism, Gambling, keeping eye on other's wife, begging, stealing and so on. He has not made any heading about the so-called social justice in any of the Thirukkural.

I can think of the chapter இன்னாசெய்யாமை in Thirukkural. Other than that, many kural would suit in opposition to caste based social injustices. Varna system was well established during Mahabharata period, which predates Thirukkural. So, we can not say that the system did not exist during Thirukkural period.

Cheers!
 
Caste is a good binding factor,and we shud maintain our brahmin caste,as long as possible.Otherwise people shud leave india and migrate forever.Caste is must for sananthana dharma.
 
Caste is a good binding factor,and we shud maintain our brahmin caste,as long as possible.Otherwise people shud leave india and migrate forever.Caste is must for sananthana dharma.

It is very interesting. Are you saying that the people who can not maintain brahmin caste should leave India? or are you suggesting that those brahmins who do not live properly as brahmins should leave India? In either case, the result would be interesting indeed.

Cheers!
 
.....i am quite sure you will be upto the challenge.

Dear K, I have to disappoint you, not for the first or the last time I am sure. But it is not due to lack of trying. I did think about it over night. To me, every benefit my antagonists have claimed for caste, such as order in society, ability to survive foreign invasion, professional specialization, etc., many of which are just imagined, and even if true, could be had without the caste system that comes with so much pernicious baggage. The real challenge is to name one benefit society derives from caste that cannot be had in a caste free society.

I also have to disagree with my brother Raghy with what he perceives as a possible benefit -- the natural humility developed over many generations. IMO, it is lot better for the society to be populated with respectful and self-confident people than a section of people resigned to a life of hammered in humility that they themselves feel natural to their station.

Sorry K, I don't see anything redeeming in caste system....
 
... . I want to make myself more clear, in olden days they were minding their own jobs, but only after the Europeans drained our resources,....

Dear PVR, we are in a period of transition. The Dalits have jettisoned the hammered-in humility. The dignity and self-respect innate to all humans and denied to them for countless generations is now awake. Many upper castes can't handle this. IMO, this is the reason for all the turmoil we see.

In an earlier time there may have been apparent tranquility, everybody going about their business; but, IMO, that is not a sign of exploitation free society. If we put ourselves in the shoes of a Dalit or a lower caste Shudra in a village and sprinkle a little empathy we will see that transgressing caste rules will be the doom of not just the "guilty" person, but his entire clan, a state worse than death. No wonder there was apparent tranquility. What is actually surprising is in spite of such harsh consequences there were instances when people fought back only to be put down with an iron hand. The Jat violence you cited and the Tanmrind tree auction cases are examples of this happening even today.

Cheers!
 
Blaming others of propaganda or hate will only perpetuate the fantasy that caste system was a wonderful thing.

Nobody (including me) is saying that the caste system was/is a wonderful/infallible thing--only that it does have positive aspects; and that the systems of hierarchy that exist in today's modern social life are not any better than the caste system in many--although different--respects.

The plain fact is that all men are not treated equal because all men are not created equal. When this fact is accepted without any qualms in the other hieararchies of social life, all the hue and cry raised against the caste and varNa system are only deliberate attempts to disown and mislead, without getting into its purportedly spiritual design.

Since all men are not created equal they have varying capabilities which chalk out their life styles. As to the question of providing leverages to the meritorious, it has always existed in the Hindu Indian society right from the Vedic times.

Fourth, comparing the hierarchy of caste system to that of the business and corporate world is absurd. While nepotism and corruption may be prevalent to varying degrees, the hierarchy is (i) not birth based (ii) people move from one layer to the next based on merit and experience, and (iii) there is no coercion, people are free to leave for better opportunities at any time, etc.

I wouldn't be so sure about all the three points, or say it for the sake of argument:

(i) Popular and successful political/business/corporate ventures are bent on promoting the succession by birth concept and strive hard to make their ventures family/dynastical systems.

(ii) Not everyone who is meritorious and has experience gets the promotion, simply because the applicants are many and the posts are few. Thinking that everyone gets his/her due invariably and without exception in all hierarchical systems is utopian.

(iii) Coercion in indirect and subtle forms exists, at least here in India, specially in some public sectors such as the banking. The latest grapevine is that the team at the helm in some banks have been coerced by the government and political machinary of the ruling party to bring down the performance levels of their banks, in order to force the merging ventures envisaged, against the wishes of the bank employees.

Again, there is intense coercion by the union/association leaders that results the top-management to promote people with less competence. The only redeeming provision against such practices is that the affect people are free to quit for better prospects elsewhere.

Fifth, if these coporations were to follow a caste system type hierarchy, then, not only can class IV employees never rise above that rank, but their sons can never be anything other than class IV employees, and their daughters can be nothing more than domestic servants for all class III and above.

This is vitaNDA-vAdam. Impartial studies by some scholars have pointed out that social restrictions existed in the varNa system of ancient India, not because of the whims and fancies of the law-makers of the SmRties, but because of the circumstances that necessitated them then, and different smRties applied at different times. That most such restrictions do not exist today is mostly welcome and is proof that our Hindu soceity is constantly updating itself, without discarding the caste and varNa system.

Svadarma and athma sadhana are obfuscations. It exists only on paper to convince ourselves of our fantasies. To do athma sadhana, whatever that is, we don't need caste system.

Whoever says whatever, the design of the Hindu varNa system (that developed into a caste system later) is based on svadharma and Atma sAdhana and not on the desire-based worldly ambitions.

People who seek to attack the caste system, since they cannot be convincing if they support the ideals of Hinduism, seek to attack Hinduism itself and its concepts, simple! This is the reason that most people who speak against the caste and varNa system are atheists and Hindu haters, who call themselves rationalists (such as the DMK and DK people), apart from the people of other religions.

If the inequalities of the caste system were due to spiritual and social/occupational status, the inequivalities of the hierarchical systems are motivated by sheer greed for money and power. And neither system can be abolished in the foreseeable future, nor is there any such necessity.
 
Sri.Nara said:-

.....a section of people resigned to a life of hammered in humility that they themselves feel natural to their station.

Sri. Nara, Greetings.

As I mentioned to Sri.Kunjuppu, my observations are localised, restricted to one particular village. I can not speak for the wider society, because, I do not know. The humility, in the way you put it is not correct. I knew my neighbouring village colony; that colony had no brightness ever in there,because, like you said, those people were hammered down. That did not happen in our village. Although discriminations were taking place, some of the prominent families in our village treated the Harijans with respect; encouraged their children to develop self confidence and helped them to study. Since my views are too localised, if my views gets rejected, I will understand that.

Cheers!
 
Dear Saptha,

... if it were only chance and random then a corollary is lack of intelligence, and lack of evolution. For even evolution to have taken place, there should be intelligence and not just dumb randomness.

To think of the entire process of evolution as completely random is not correct. The randomness is only about gene mutations. Even here not all mutations are random, environmental conditions may play a part as well. As Raghy pointed out elsewhere, some of these gene mutations may be beneficial, some not. The beneficial mutations will provide a survival and reproductive advantage. This is not random at all. This is sometimes referred to as natural selection. When this happens, the beneficial gene mutations will become more prevalent among the following generations and in due course of time, may wipe out the non-mutated form, or branch off into a new sub-specious. So, evolution is not at all a completely random process.

Deducing an intelligent designer causes more problems than it solves. The most basic of these problems is, who designed the designer? There cannot be one as that would lead to infinite regress. If the intelligent designer exists without a cause, then (i) why can't the material universe exist with an a priori cause? and (ii) the intelligent designer existing without a cause negates your assesion that there must be a cause for every effect.

Cheers!
 
Shri Raghy,
Greetings. Personally I don't think that Karma theory, Varna classifications and Dharma shastras happened by chance...
I think my post must have been ambiguous; the happenning here refers to creation or life...

[/QUOTE]If the above quote referes to evolution of species, inteligenge must have played a huge part....[/QUOTE]Precisely, so what was that intelligence before?

------------------------

Shri Nara
To think of the entire process of evolution as completely random is not correct..... So, evolution is not at all a completely random process.
I completely agree with this... But what I am trying to point out is that irrespective of its quality being benign or malign, there is an underlying logic involved - cause and effect. Maybe, it might appear random as the number of participating variables increase...

...The most basic of these problems is, who designed the designer? There cannot be one as that would lead to infinite regress.

If the intelligent designer exists without a cause, then (i) why can't the material universe exist with an a priori cause? and (ii) the intelligent designer existing without a cause negates your assesion that there must be a cause for every effect.
Let us approach it this way - If there is no designer, then,

-> Where did the initial intelligence come from?

-> It negates the cause and effect theory. Nothing should be possible to achieve through cause and effect.

-> If things were always so, then the question of life and death itself is a glaring anomaly to the postulate. You cannot say that the entirety of the situation that we see now itself was always so, as that would then negate any changes to the macro structure which would be a culmination of micro level changes.

So, in a nutshell, change, itself, is not possible if things were always so.

Regards,
 
raghy,

its not just brahmins,we need kshathrias,vaishyas,shudras.which exist even today albeit with a tag thats different from vedic times.teachers,business people,security personnel,service people are very much in existent all over the world.its convenient to bash hinduism by rational people like dk,dmk,aiadmk becoz christians ,islam bash hindus so that conversion rate increases.this sir,is the actual engine which sprouts discord amongst nations and people globally.
 
sapthajihva
So, in a nutshell, change, itself, is not possible if things were always so.

change is always in existant as dynamic motion,nothing is static,imo.our earth is also an example and living inhabitants naturally are as dynamic as earth.
 
sapthajihva


change is always in existant as dynamic motion,nothing is static,imo.our earth is also an example and living inhabitants naturally are as dynamic as earth.
Shri nn, this statement is not mine...

You have to read this sentence as a result of the previous points... i.e., if things were always so, then they would have always been so - without any change whatsoever.
 
Caste system

Dear Saptha, yes, we do have profound disagreement and I am happy to leave it at that. I have no problem with stating positive things if you see any. I have no quarrel with you.

I jumped in only because of the claim it is the fault of the British. British are to blame for a lot of things, no doubt. But not for something that was written down and criticized by our own forefathers at least 1000 years ago.

peace ....
A small correction.There is so much of distortion in Nandanar's story as recorded by Dr.U.V.Swaminathaiyer in his autobiography.Nandanar was never employed by a brahmin landlord as portrayed by Sri Gopalakrishna Bharathi in Nandan Charitam.This was an interpolation in the story by Gopalakrishnabharathi to add pathos and create a hero-Villain sort of duel.This can be verified in Peria puranam.This is also mentiuoned by HH Mahasvamigal of Kanchi Mutt.This gave ample scope for vilifying Brahmins by The self respect and Congress movement
 
.... there is an underlying logic involved - cause and effect. Maybe, it might appear random as the number of participating variables increase...

Dear saptha, there being an underlying logic, and there being a cause, do not point to an intelligent agent being the original cause. That is my point.

-> Where did the initial intelligence come from?
How exactly intelligent life came to being is not understood, but one thing we can say, it is not due to another intelligent agent, as that would lead to the question whence came that intelligent agent, and on and on into the logical black hole.

-> It negates the cause and effect theory. Nothing should be possible to achieve through cause and effect.
That is why I reject the proposition there was an intelligent agent that existed without a preceding cause. If we don't reject this proposition, then the whole foundation for looking for a cause for an effect will fall apart -- anything can simply be asserted by this logic.

-> If things were always so, then the question of life and death itself is a glaring anomaly to the postulate. You cannot say that the entirety of the situation that we see now itself was always so, as that would then negate any changes to the macro structure which would be a culmination of micro level changes.,
I am not saying things were always so :confused:, please explain further, I don't understand.

There is an infinity of mysteries to unfold and we may never understand everything there is. But, one thing is fairly certain, to the extent anything can be certain, there is no supernatural agent who created life with an a priori intent.

Cheers!
 
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...Nandanar was never employed by a brahmin landlord .....This can be verified in Peria puranam.


suvarchas, kindly furnish some more details if you can, from Periya Puranam. In particular, please let us know what periya Puranam says about the following:

  • Who was Nandanar's employer?
  • Who prevented him from entering the Nataraja temple?
  • Why was purification by fire necessary?
Cheers!
 
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