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QuickRef: The Institution of Caste in India: Positive Aspects

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A small correction.There is so much of distortion in Nandanar's story as recorded by Dr.U.V.Swaminathaiyer in his autobiography.Nandanar was never employed by a brahmin landlord as portrayed by Sri Gopalakrishna Bharathi in Nandan Charitam.This was an interpolation in the story by Gopalakrishnabharathi to add pathos and create a hero-Villain sort of duel.This can be verified in Peria puranam.This is also mentiuoned by HH Mahasvamigal of Kanchi Mutt.This gave ample scope for vilifying Brahmins by The self respect and Congress movement

You are correct. Sekkizhar's Thiruthondar Puranam is the authentic document of all the 63 saiva saints.

Gopalakrishna Bharathi was contemporary to Thiagayya. Bharathi didn't like Thiagayya on two aspects -

1. Thiagayya wrote all his songs in Telugu where as Gopalakrishna Bharathi composed in Tamil. Bharathi didn't like Thiagayya promoting Telugu.

2. Thiagayya composed on Lord Rama. He has also composed songs on Lord Shiva at Kovoor near Kunrathur known as `Kovoor Pancharatnam'. Both Tiruvarur where Tyagayya was born and Thiruvayyaru where he lived had ancient Shiva temples and Thiagayya visited only these temples regularly. He never found any difference between Shiva and Lord Rama eventhough he composed most of the songs on Lord Rama. Bharathi on the contrary was an ardent Shiva worshiper. He wrote `Nandanar Charitram' in Tamil bringing a Brahmin Land Lord in the picture which is not at all correct.

I think `Brahmin Hatred' started during Gopalakrishna Bharathi period itself.

All the best
 
Some facts about the origin of the caste system in India-02
The influence and role of varNa in ancient Hindu educational system
(From the book Education in Ancient India by Dr.A.S.Altekar)

It is usually held that the varNa-vibhAgam--system of class distinctions had rigidly determined the occupations and made the teaching line a monopoly of the BrAhmaNas.

• We shall however find that KShatriya teachers of Vedic and philosophical subjects existed down the 6th century BCE; and that

• the keen intellect of the Brahmana community was for a long time utilised to further the bounds of human knowledge in several branches of non-Vedic studies.

It was only in later times that religious and literary education came to be confined to the BrAhmaNas and professional and industrial training to non-BrAhmaNas.

• Interdining with lower castes, which used to be an anathema among the orthodox upper castes in the earlier centuries, was not so in ancient India.

DharmashAstra writers like Manu (4.253) and Apastamba (2.1.3-4) permit a BrAhmaNa to dine in the house of a barber, a milkman and a tenant and employ a ShUdra cook even for preparing the sacrificial food.

• Inter-caste marriages were allowed by the majority of the SmRties, provided the bridegroom belonged to a higher caste.

Non-BrAhmaNas as Vedic teachers

• Although SmRties have laid down that BrAhmaNas alone should impart Vedic education, it was not so in the earlier period. There is evidence to show that non-BrAhmaNas also sometimes used to become Vedic teachers, with appropriate rituals. (kAThaka samhitA 9.16).

• Some KShatriyas composed Vedic hymns: eg, VishvAmitra in the Rig Veda. In the UpaniShadic period KShatriyas took an important part in the development of philosophy and were the exclusive custodians of many esoteric doctrines, which BrAhmaNas could learn only from them and not without some difficulty. (Ch.Up.5.3.7, Br.Up.2.1.15)

• There are several cases of BrAhmaNas approaching renowned KShatriya teachers like Ashvapati, Janaka and PravAhana Jaivali as humble students of philosophy and religion. (Br.Up.2.1.14, 4.1.1, Ch.Up.4.4.1, etc.)

We should therefore note that the varNa system succeeded in making Vedic and religious education a monopoly of the BrAhmaNas only at about 300 BCE. Nor was it a lucrative monopoly in practice; it was a monopoly to beg. The income of even the most famous Vedic teachers was a precarious one and compared very poorly with the gains of a successful Vysya or a senApati--army captain.

BrAhmaNas as teachers of non-Vedic subjects

• SmRties lay down that except in times of difficulties, BrAhmaNas shoud not take up the occupations of Vysas or kShatriyas. For a long time, however, BrAhmaNas were following a number of non-Vedic pursuits and professions and also figuring as their teachers.

• The PANDava and Kaurava heroes were not trained by a KShatriya but by a BrAhmaNa teacher--DroNAchArya.

• BrAhmaNas were also trainers of horses and elephants (Manu 3.162).

• JAtakas also show that at Taxila, BrAhmaNas used to impart education in several practical professions like the military art, medicine and snake charming, etc., both to BrAhmaNas and KShatriyas (Asadisa J.181, see also Thusa J.338).

• Dhanur Veda lays down that BrAhmaNas are as eligible to be teachers of the military science as KShatriyas (1.4).

It was only in later times, from 500 CE onwards, that BrAhmaNas ceased to be teachers of useful arts and professions owing to the growing rigour of the varNa system.

VarNa system in the curriculum, domination of Vedic studies

• SmRties lay down emphatically that all BrAhmaNas should devote twelve years after their Upanayanam, to Vedic studies. In practice, however, only about a fifth of the BrAhmaNa community, used to devote itself to Vedic studies, when new branches like grammar, philosophy, law and classical Sanskrit literature came to be developed.

This was alright because, for preservation of the oral tradition of the Vedas, the services of only a small section of the community who could take up the rigours were necessary. The rest were required only to study the Vedas and other scriptures only for their prayogam--practice, in Vedic rituals.

Vedic studies of the KShatriyas and Vysyas

• The term dvija included the KShatriyas and Vysyas along with BrAhmaNas. So the SmRtiti requires even the KShatriyas and Vysyas to pursue Vedic studies after their Upanayanam, although such studies were never deep or prolonged.

• Some JAtaka stories however mention that some princes used to study all the three Vedas as well as eighteen practical sciences (Dummedha J.50).

• MahAbhArata mentions that the Kaurava princes were experts in Veda, VedAnta and various branches of military science (1.118, 133).

Although in the early times Vedic and philosophical studies were included in the curriculam of the prince, they were left out in course of time. From about the beginning of the Christian era, KShatriyas and Vysyas gradually gave up undergoing the Upanayanam, so became ineligible for Vedic studies. (Hence the observation of DalhaNa, a medical writer, in Sushruta, sharIra 10.52). By about 1000 CE they were reduced to the position of the ShUdras and were debarred from Vedic education.

Vedic education and the ShUdras

• Sacred texts have laid down in very emphatic terms that the ShUdra should be rigourously excluded the Vedic education and rituals. This injunction has been always carried out in practice.

• Some early texts allow the carpenter to be eligible for Upanayanam and Vedic study; however in those times, he was a member of the Aryan and not the ShUdra community.

The exclusion of the ShUdras from the Vedic studies undoubtedly appears as unjustifiable to us at present, but there were peculiar circumstances that necessitated this step in early times.

• In the preservation of the Vedas by oral tradition, the AchAryas believed that if there was the slightest mistake in the pronunciation of the Vedic mantras, a disaster would inevitably issue (PANINIya shikShA 5.52).

• As the Vedic Sanskrit was not the mother tongue of the ShUdras, it was feared that Vedic hymns would be transformed out of recognition, if they were transmitted orally in ShUdra families from generation to generation, which in the eyes of AchAryas, would be a great disaster.

• Later on, when female education began to lag behind, and women as class ceased to be educated in Sanskrit, in is interesting to note that the BrAhmaNa AchAryas did not flinch from placing their own mothers, wives, and daughters in the category of the ShUdras and declaring unhesitatingly that they also were unfit for Vedic studies.

Theological animus or pride was thus not at the root of the exclusion of the ShUdras and women from the Vedic education. Nor did it amount to a total denial of religious education; for women and ShUdras were permitted to get religious enlightenment from the study of SmRties, ItihAsas and PurANas.

Conclusion

With the exception of the ShUdras from the Vedic education, the varNa system for a long time did not result in restricting occupations to specific varNas.

• Gautama Dharma Shastra 1.6.16 mentions, "rAjanyavaishyakarmA vidyAhInaH", prescribing the occupations of the KShatriya and Vysya for dull BrAhmaNa children.

• Ambitious BrAhmaNas were also not prevented from the military profession, where glittering prizes awaited the successful adventurer.

• A BrAhmaNa priest of holy Benaras is to be seen sending his son to Taxila to learn archery, because it was predicted that he was to be a king (SArabhanga J.no.522).

• It was ambition alone that was responsible for sovereignity being vested in BrAhmaNa families like those of Shungas, KaNvas, Kadambas.

• Army recruitment was not confined to the KShatriyas; inscriptions make it clear that it was largely recruited from the agriculturists and the ShUdras. Dhanurveda also contemplates military education for all four varNas.

It is interesting to note that when Yuan Chwang was in India in the second quarter of the 7th century CE, the kings of Ujjain, Maheshvar and Assam were BrAhmaNas; those of PariyAtra and Kanauj, Vyshyas; and those of Matipura, and Sindh, ShUdras.

The commericial and industry lines were also very often followed by BrAhmaNas and KShatriyas. The varNa system therefore made education rigid only to a limited degree and that too from c.800 CE.

varNa and the Buddhist education

• Since Buddhism was against the Vedas, education was provided to members of all varNas. Persons were admitted to the Order irrespective of the varNas, although servants, slaves, and debtors were refused admission to the Order. UpAli, a favourite disciple of Buddha, was a barber before he joined the Order.

• However, it is interesting to note that among famous Buddhist teachers and scholars, the vast majority consisted of people who earlier were BrAhmaNas. Thus MoggalAna, SAriputta, NAgasena, Vasubandhu and NAgArjuna were all BrAhmaNas before their conversion.
 
Shri Nara,

...there being an underlying logic, and there being a cause, do not point to an intelligent agent being the original cause. That is my point.
A logic or a cause-effect relationship cannot exist without intelligence...

How exactly intelligent life came to being is not understood, but one thing we can say, it is not due to another intelligent agent, as that would lead to the question whence came that intelligent agent, and on and on into the logical black hole.
For intelligence to be the outcome, the cause should also be intelligence. The effect is not totally devoid of its cause & hence the endless loop is answered only by the premise that there existed some intelligence out of which all other intelligence sprang forth.

That is why I reject the proposition there was an intelligent agent that existed without a preceding cause. If we don't reject this proposition, then the whole foundation for looking for a cause for an effect will fall apart -- anything can simply be asserted by this logic.
Then how did intelligence come into being? It cannot be casual; it has to be causal. Intelligence springs forth from intelligence and merges with it again.

The problem is - if you dont accept that there was a cause for this material world to exist, then how can you justify cause & effect phenomena?

I am not saying things were always so :confused:, please explain further, I don't understand.
This was in response to this:

... If the intelligent designer exists without a cause, then (i) why can't the material universe exist with an a priori cause? and (ii) the intelligent designer existing without a cause negates your assesion that there must be a cause for every effect.
For this to be true you must first accept that cause and effect phenomena is null and void.

Secondly, if this material world existed without a cause, in a particular state, without any creator, then for that to be true, everything in this world has to be in suspension.

Contrarily if this world is the cause for itself, then we have to see new creations springing out, or rather, materializing before our eyes, and that too without any prior cause.

We do not know what the designer is, how it is or what is its manifestation; such a designer which is capable of existing without a cause, and which is capable of creation, cannot be imagined by us.

.... to the extent anything can be certain, there is no supernatural agent who created life with an a priori intent.
Certainity is a factor which has limitations; I would like to say that to the extent anything can be logical, creation/manifestation has a cause to it, that being the cause of all causes.

Regards,
 
Shri Nara,

A logic or a cause-effect relationship cannot exist without intelligence...

For intelligence to be the outcome, the cause should also be intelligence. The effect is not totally devoid of its cause & hence the endless loop is answered only by the premise that there existed some intelligence out of which all other intelligence sprang forth.

Hope I am not interfering with your discussion. Just what is intelligence?


We do not know what the designer is, how it is or what is its manifestation; such a designer which is capable of existing without a cause, and which is capable of creation, cannot be imagined by us.


Certainity is a factor which has limitations; I would like to say that to the extent anything can be logical, creation/manifestation has a cause to it, that being the cause of all causes.

Regards,

Cause and effect require (must take place) in time and movement. What is time and is there anything timeless?
 
Hope I am not interfering with your discussion. Just what is intelligence?
No, you are not. I use the term iIntelligence here to mean knowledge, awareness...

Cause and effect require (must take place) in time and movement.
Yes, if we are speaking of cause-effect relationships within the scope of our realms.

What is time and is there anything timeless?
Time is only a relative measure...
 
aadiyum illai anthamum illayai,neither a start nor a end,is our sanathana dharma as a classic example for something timeless,saar :)
 
No, you are not. I use the term iIntelligence here to mean knowledge, awareness...

Yes, if we are speaking of cause-effect relationships within the scope of our realms.

Time is only a relative measure...

So the timeless exists when time and measurement have ceased. Human thinking is based on the past, present and projected future which is bound by time and measurement. That could be the reason for sages to require a still mind of anybody to understand the timeless. The timeless is also limitless not being bound by past, present or future.
 
Saptha, let me first clarify one thing, I am not saying there is no cause and effect, my point is, logically speaking, there cannot an original intelligent cause for the universe.

I also don't agree with your claim that a cause-effect relationship cannot exist without intelligence. We see non-intelligent causes all around us.

One more thing, I don't accept as an axiom that for intelligence to be the outcome, the cause should also be intelligence, why?

The premise you propose that there existed some intelligence out of which all other intelligence sprang forth, is unacceptable. You are just ignoring the infinite regress problem

There is nothing that proves that intelligence like what we observe in living beings cannot come into being without an priori intent. If you reject this proposition then you need to say why without resorting to religious doctrine.

I don't say this material world came into existence without a cause, all I am saying is an intelligent cause is so extremely unlikely that one can say it is not. So, to hold my position one need not reject cause and effect phenomena, the only thing rejected is an intelligent primordial cause.

Secondly, if this material world existed without a cause, in a particular state, without any creator, then for that to be true, everything in this world has to be in suspension.
As I have said, I am only denying intelligent cause for material universe, not any cause at all.

Contrarily if this world is the cause for itself, then we have to see new creations springing out, or rather, materializing before our eyes, and that too without any prior cause.
We do see that every day, there is so much life that spring out and die out. It is starting of Spring season here in the U.S. and suddenly there is so much life out there it is amazing. A tree that looked all but dead suddenly is fully blooms with wonderful colors.

I would like to say that to the extent anything can be logical, creation/manifestation has a cause to it, that being the cause of all causes.
Then what is the cause of this cause of all causes? We are back to square 1. The best we can do at this point is to say well I don't know. To say their must be this or that is dogma.

Cheers!
 
sapthajihva

i know,we are on same page,on many causes,and we agree to disagree on issue.that being said,everything is cyclic in nature.that is why sages said to us,that there was neither a start nor will there be any end,such is the law of natural things,which transform to one another and come back,start the cyclic process all over again.we are in kali yugam,seven kali yugams have already been over,this is the 8th that we are in.the yuga cycles of rishis given to us,is so mind boggling,immature minds dismiss it immaturely.to realise a cause,one must realise one's self first,then the causes of all causes will be known,this is the sanathana dharma way to spiritual life.when one doesn't believe our shastras or sampradayas,but indulge in wanton argumentative 'vaada' of what use will be it, to any?there is no dogma or doctrine involved in athma vicharam as ordained by sanathana dharma,it's as simple as that.so many paths,so many schools,will give you the result,it's guranteed with money back,if i were to start a gurukula corporate style :)
 
Dear suvarchas,

Your small correction was in response to this I gather:
Originally Posted by Nara
....British are to blame for a lot of things, no doubt. But not for something that was written down and criticized by our own forefathers at least 1000 years ago.
Nandanar story, if true, happened long before English even realized they will not fall off the earth if they ventured to sail too far. Any interpolations Gopalakrishna Bharathi is guilty of is supposed to have found resonance among the freedom fighters including Gandhi. So, the interpolations cannot be blamed on the British.

Leaving all that aside, there is enough in Sekkizhar's own description of Thiru Nalaippovar Nayanar (Nandanar) to indict Brahmins without any need for interpolations by anyone. Sekkizhar apparently did not think much of Dalits and repeatedly portrays Nandanar's birth as degraded. There are several instances where Sekkizar says nandanar could not enter temples because of his lowly birth. Why his superior devotion did not off set his lowly birth is simply ignored, much like many of my antagonists who simply ignore questions they are unable to answer.

In the climax the Brahmins cite Lord nataraja's command and burn Nandanar alive. Lo and behold, Nandanar arises as a Brahmin out of the fire and then was able to enter the temple. All this is in Periya Puranam in the original words of Sekkizhar.

Here is part of how Sekkizhar describes the Pulai Cheri where Nandanar was born:


... பைங்குழல் கதிர் நெல் மிலைச்சிய புன் புலைச்சியர்கள்
கள் உண்டு களி தூங்கக் கறங்கு பறையும் கலிக்கும்


For Sekkizhar, the Dalit ladies are drunkards.


He describes Dalit cheri as, è¬ìëó¢ Þ¼ð¢¹[FONT=&quot], [/FONT] abode of the lowly.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
The caste based division of tasks and is clear from this;

áó¤ô¢õ¤´ñ¢ ð¬øì¬õ »í¾ó¤¬ñ ò£è¢ªè£í¢´
ê£ó¢ð¤ô¢õ¼ï¢ ªî£ö¤ô¢ªêò¢õ£ó¢ î¬ôï¤ù¢ø£ó


Nandanar was born into a caste that had the right to do all the menial tasks.

The following pasuram explains the all powerful Sivaperuman goes only to the extent of asking Nandi to move, but not let nandanar come inside the temple.

சீர் ஏறும் இசை பாடி திருத்தொண்டர் திருவாயில்
நேர் ஏகும் பிடவேண்டும் என நினைந்தாராகக் அது நேர்வார்
காரேறும் எயிற்புன்கூர்க் கண்ணூதலார் திருமுன்பு
போரேற்றை விலங்க அருள் புரிந்து அருளிப் புலப்படுத்தார்.

Here is what Sekkizhar says about Lord Nataraja asking Nandanar to purify himself by fire before entering his temple in Thillai.

Þð¢ð¤øõ¤ «ð£ò¢ï¦é¢è ªõó¤ò¤ù¤¬ì ï¦Íö¢è¤
ºð¢¹ó¤Ëù¢ ñ£ó¢ð¼ìù¢ ºù¢ù¬íõ£



Then, Chekkizhar says Nandanar went to the ditch of fire prepared by the Brahmins and went around the fire.

மறையவர்கள் நெருப்பு அமைத்த குழி எய்தி
இறையவர் தாம் மனங்கொண்டே எரி சூழ வலங்கொண்டார்


Here is what happened next , according to Sekkizhar.

கைதொழுது நடமாடும் கழல் உன்னி அழல் புக்கார
எய்தியவப் பொழுதின் கண் எரியின் கண் இம்மாயப்
பொய் தகையும் உரு ஒழித்துப் புண்ணிய மாமுனி வடிவாய்
மெய் திகழ வெண்ணூல் விளங்க வேணி முடி கொண்டு எழுந்தார்.

When nandanar entered the fire prepared for him by the Brahmins, his polluted body was burnt and he rose with a virtuous body of a Brahmin with poonool.

Do you really any more interpolations to understand what was taking place?


This gave ample scope for vilifying Brahmins by The self respect and Congress movement
No interpolation is really needed, Sekkizhar himself has provided enough ammunition for any self respecting individual to understand what actually happened to the uppity Nandanar who wanted so badly to only have a darshan of Lord Nataraja.

Cheers!
 
Shri Nara and Saptha

I have been following all the interesting discussions in this
thread. I thought I would contribute my views on the topic.

Cause and effect can be meaningful only in the realm of
space and time or the physical world. To try to look for
it beyond that reality does not make sense. If the universe
were created by God he was obviously operating outside
the realm of space time and the question who created him
would not arise.

Bing conditioned within spacetime we are bound to think in
terms of cause and effect and totally miss the underlying
timeless spiritual reality.
 
Greetings Sri Raghy,

Sri.PVRaman said :-



Sri.PVR, Greetings. Kindly explain me, who are 'us' and who are 'them', please? I thought we are above such differences.

Cheers!

Even though we don't have the differences, the society as a whole has towards dalits (them) and they have too towards the other castes. There is hatred which will never yield them the much wanted part in the society. I feel, there is an effort required on their part apart from slogans and our learned media should not use them and make them believe that the aggression could bring them success. On the contrary it may help to keep alive the the never ending rift which is going on now. Mine was a suggestion. We do, why not they try different ways to come out of their misery?.

Regards
 
Dear Sri Nara,
If we put ourselves in the shoes of a Dalit or a lower caste Shudra in a village and sprinkle a little empathy we will see that transgressing caste rules will be the doom of not just the "guilty" person, but his entire clan, a state worse than death...

There is no second opinion that many of them (in villages) lead a miserable life. The problem is they are not accepted by the caste society and not treated well. During the past and present days, we are trying to demolish the caste society by various means with a purpose to end Dalit's misery. Wherein within caste system the people are harmonious to each other.

Though the efforts to end Dalit's misery is commendable, the negative approach yielded no results for many decades and can say centuries. On the other hand, it helped dalits to get an identity which they may not want to forgo, which will keep them very much separated.

I do not close my eyes for Dalits problems, but IMO, unless they try different approach like Brahmins do, fighting against the majority caste members will yield very minimum results. We have experienced the atrocities of DK people, even though we are said to be on top of the varna system. The mental humiliation, the poor brahmins endured is not far below than any supposedly lower caste people. It went through the spine of brahmin caste changing the attitude of majority of the brahmins for many years. Within 50 years, are we not seeing a totally different brahmins?.

Regards
 
Thanks Sri Saidevo,

Some facts about the origin of the caste system in India-02
The influence and role of varNa in ancient Hindu educational system
(From the book Education in Ancient India by Dr.A.S.Altekar)

Very informative post!..

Regards
 
suvarchas, kindly furnish some more details if you can, from Periya Puranam. In particular, please let us know what periya Puranam says about the following:

  • Who was Nandanar's employer?
  • Who prevented him from entering the Nataraja temple?
  • Why was purification by fire necessary?
Cheers!

Prof Nara Sir,

Nandanar was doing service to Lord Nataraja. Lord Nataraja was his employer.

Because of the caste system prevailing those days, Nandanar controlled himself from entering the temple of Lord Nataraja.

It was the wish of Lord Nataraja which has come through the dreams of Nandanar as well as the priests, Nandanar entered the fire.

Full details available in the following article.

thirunALaippOvAr nAyanAr (nandanAr)

Please read the above so that full clarity could be obtained.

Even Sundaramoorthi Nayanar, suppose to be a brahmin , has declared that he would like to be a slave of `Nandanar'.

All the best
 
Last edited:
Ok, here goes,
Saptha, let me first clarify one thing, I am not saying there is no cause and effect, my point is, logically speaking, there cannot an original intelligent cause for the universe.
.....

One more thing, I don't accept as an axiom that for intelligence to be the outcome, the cause should also be intelligence, why?
Quoting your statement from another post - சட்டியிலே இருந்தாதானே ஆப்பையில வர... The modern logic is GIGO...

We cannot mix two substances and get an resultant substance which is entirely disconnected with the original mix... on this line, a non-intelligent cause cannot bring about an intelligent effect.

The premise you propose that there existed some intelligence out of which all other intelligence sprang forth, is unacceptable. You are just ignoring the infinite regress problem

On the contrary, what I am trying to say is that you can only regress back to the unicellular entity which was the first life before trillions of years... what was the cause for that?

-> Moreover, where does the awareness come from? The feeling of being 'I am', and not 'you are me'/'I am that'?
-> Where does the discriminating knowledge come from?
-> Where does the awareness, that we have to survive, come from?
-> Why is that different levels of life forms exist?

There is nothing that proves that intelligence like what we observe in living beings cannot come into being without an priori intent. If you reject this proposition then you need to say why without resorting to religious doctrine.
That being the case, there should be life forms materializing just like that, in thin air, without any prior cause. Does that happen?

Then what is the cause of this cause of all causes? We are back to square 1. The best we can do at this point is to say well I don't know. To say their must be this or that is dogma.
If it is the cause of all causes, then it is the cause for itself, isn't it?? :wave:
 
...to realise a cause,one must realise one's self first,then the causes of all causes will be known,this is the sanathana dharma way to spiritual life.when one doesn't believe our shastras or sampradayas,but indulge in wanton argumentative 'vaada' of what use will be it, to any?...
Actually in the process of discussing on topics like this, I find that it is actually an experience by itself... :playball:
 
...

Cause and effect can be meaningful only in the realm of
space and time or the physical world. To try to look for
it beyond that reality does not make sense. If the universe
were created by God he was obviously operating outside
the realm of space time and the question who created him
would not arise.
The question is that if it cannot be debated, then any claim can be made on the basis that it is outside our dimension.

The conclusion that there is a cause, and that there is a force (sustaining or whatever), should be the result of irrefutable logic and not by mere assertion.

I am treading this line of reasoning with Shri Nara to see whether logic and reason can be used to determine the presence of an 'unknown'.

Regards,
 
Saptha

Nara ji's point is that you have to handle the problem
of infinite regress while talking about cause effect.
So we come to the problem of who created God?
But in a similar vein you can also say what caused
the big bang if that created the universe?
 
it's hilarious to note,that as human's today our life span is max between 60-90 years,and yet we are keen tounderstand the origin's of life,despite the fact scripture's exist explaining them in detail,but then these scripture's are penned by brahman's of india,so naturally,the abrahamic faith dominated education system,will pooh pooh any finding's of past,while the abrahamic faith itself is an offshoot of sanathana dharma principle's.avidya karanam tathasthu.
 
Saptha

...
But in a similar vein you can also say what caused
the big bang if that created the universe?
sravna, thank you for your pointer, but then, it is too easy to say 'I don't know'...;) ... and it does not serve any purpose, does it...!

As for the question on infinite regress, I think it rests on leading a life as per the scriptures and then 'knowing' for oneself whether it is so.
 
Shri nachi,
it's hilarious to note,that as human's today our life span is max between 60-90 years,and yet we are keen tounderstand the origin's of life,despite the fact scripture's exist explaining them in detail,but then these scripture's are penned by brahman's of india,so naturally,the abrahamic faith dominated education system,will pooh pooh any finding's of past,while the abrahamic faith itself is an offshoot of sanathana dharma principle's.avidya karanam tathasthu.
Actualy the problem orginated when we, brahmins, started moving away from our lifestyle and purpose.
 
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