Is the Community digging its own grave

[Asirvadam]

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There is a certain definite perception of what brahmins are like in nature such as brilliant, soft, tolerant, law abiding etc. ....

There are many among Non-brahmins who also possess these traits and many among brahmins who do not possess any of these traits. I think we cannot jump to a generalized conclusion on these traits which are strictly individualistic.

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in his 532:

Smt. Renuka,

Since Shri Vaagmi burst out (as seems to be his wont) when I said "vaagmi gene" I was trying, for the last few days to find out what is it that Boyd had written which showed that the so-called brahmin culture had written into the brahmin genetic code etc. Since Vaagmi seems to be primarily cantankerous, I am bringing my doubt to you.

Sangom,

Though I could react to this calling names (“cantankerous” is not a decent word used in conversation by decent people.) I would say I am rather amused. I remember only the famous tamil quote which my father used to quote when he came across people like you –people who think and believe that they know every thing and yet know very little deeply about any thing. The tamil quote is this “ஆலிலை எப்படி இருக்கும் ஐயா? அட மடையா இது கூட தெரியாதா. அது புளிய இலை மாதிரி மஞ்சளா வேலியில படர்ந்திருக்கும்டா”. From your this post I have realized I have chosen the wrong audience to quote scientific journals and proven facts. It is just a திண்ணை. இங்கே கர்னாடக சங்கீத ராகங்களை(மட்டும்) அடித்து துவைத்து கிழித்து காயப்போட்டு மடித்து வைக்கவும்,, தங்களுக்குப்பிடித்த(ஆனால் சரியாக புரிந்துகொள்ளாத) விஷயங்களை வெத்தலையாகவும் பாக்காகவும் புகையிலையாகவும் போட்டு சவையோ சவை என்று சவைத்து இடமும் வலமும் துப்பி சித்திரம்(?) வரையவும் தெரிந்த, தங்களுடைய கடந்த காலங்களில் மட்டுமே வாழ்ந்து அப்படியே உறைந்து நின்றுவிட்டிருக்கும் பரிதாபமான ஜன்மங்களின் கூட்டம் கூடிப்பேசுகின்ற ஒரு திண்ணை. அவ்வளவே.

I respect your age and so do not write more about this.

Wikipedia says, "Most mammals normally cease to produce lactase, becoming lactose intolerant, afterweaning, but some human populations have developed lactase persistence, in which lactase production continues into adulthood. It is estimated that 75% of adults worldwide show some decrease in lactase activity during adulthood.[SUP][5][/SUP] The frequency of decreased lactase activity ranges from 5% in northern Europe through 71% for Sicily to more than 90% in some African and Asian countries.[SUP][6][/SUP] This distribution is now thought to have been caused by recent natural selection favoring lactase-persistent individuals in cultures in which dairy products are available as a food source.[SUP][7][/SUP] While it was first thought that this would mean that populations in Europe, India, and Africa had high frequencies of lactase persistence because of a particular mutation, it was later shown that lactase persistence is caused by several independently occurring mutations.[SUP][8][/SUP][SUP]"[/SUP][SUP]([/SUP]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance).

Sangom you have wasted your time. Instead of going to Wikipedia where raw opinions are just presented, you could have gone to either UCLA library on line or to the website of Robert Boyd where the synopsis of his theory is given. I fear your going to Renuka to do an interpretation is going to be of any use.

It therefore appears as if lactose intolerance is the normal thing for all mammals and if the brahmin way of using milk and milk products in their food is considered, then indian population should have high frequencies of lactase persistence; but the opposite seems to be the truth.

This is just remotely relevant to the subject in hand.

Again I find that lactose intolerance can set in suddenly as a result of acute gastroenteritis, diarrhea,chemotherapy, intestinal parasites or other environmental causes

I understand what you are trying to say obliquely. You know, people who dig the gutter will get only the smell of….you know what. Those who grind sandol will get the fragrance of sandal. The stink here is too bad.

 

[Vaagmi]

There are many among Non-brahmins who also possess these traits and many among brahmins who do not possess any of these traits. I think we cannot jump to a generalized conclusion on these traits which are strictly individualistic.

Though the traits are individualistic, the more frequent occurrence of some of them in an identifiable group of people as compared to another group can not be ignored. This is the gist of the argument here.

 

[Asirvadam]

"... the more frequent occurrence of some of them in an identifiable group of people as compared to another group can not be ignored. This is the gist of the argument here.

There are no statistics to prove this. There are the Jews who are believed to be the most intelligent, blessed etc. Your statement above would help to substantiate the viewpoint of Jews among them, for an example. Hence such arguments are difficult to accept.

 

[Vaagmi]

There are no statistics to prove this. There are the Jews who are believed to be the most intelligent, blessed etc. Your statement above would help to substantiate the viewpoint of Jews among them, for an example. Hence such arguments are difficult to accept.

Jews as a community are more intelligent perhaps. I am not bothered whether my point substantiate any body's position or not because I am not a politician to bother about such things nor am I engaged in any conversion activity to prove that every one is intelligent. You need not accept my argument. Let it remain a view point.

 

[vgane]

Dear Shri gane,

I am talking mostly about this tendency only. You were most agitated about IC/IR marriages and when somebody gives some action points, immediately your knee-jerk reaction is to point to Thambras. Why is it that you have not asked your equally brahminist members like Vaagmi, Sravna, Ravi and side actors like Zebra, Sarang, Kalabhairavan, etc., to consider these suggestions at least? That is why I am constrained to point out the weaknesses of tabras which immediately becomes 'brahmin bashing'; I am sure this tactic of calling brahmin bashing is also an equally disgraceful strategy to shirk any possible task of doing something to make this community active.

Anyway, I feel we can at least discuss the suggestions of Shri Chandru and what can be done in/by/through this forum.

Dear Shri Sangom,

I felt very strongly that each of the points mentioned by Shri Chandru as actionable...I am in 100% agreement with the suggestions given...Now as far as converting the suggestions be it conducting regular meetings within community, regular interaction with our children, starting a fund, taking a oath not to disclose the sect/ (can add to owe allegiance to our tradition, culture and community) or allowing inter sect marriages, have to be done at the Community level through an association..It is not a one man effort..

I am not clear why you are trying to get a response from a separate group of members called Brahmanist as per you...In any case all members, including you are allowed to comment

When I post a thread, I do not beseech everyone by name to come and contribute

It is up to the concerned individual to take a call whether to respond or not, if respond whether to agree or disagree or share a view point

Let us wait for the members to accordingly decide...

 

[rishikesan]

Dear mr vgane and mr. Sangom,I am deeply interested to exchange views between ourselves, outside this forum for a while. Please talk to me on phone land line 044/24842279 . This topic requires to be analysed by persons of our age I am 80
I honestly expect you both talk to me . We 3 together can later discuss with our leader PTA den with no emotions . Hope you agree,
Rishikesan

 

[prasad1]

There are many among Non-brahmins who also possess these traits and many among brahmins who do not possess any of these traits. I think we cannot jump to a generalized conclusion on these traits which are strictly individualistic.

I agree with you.
Moreover there is so much of influence of environment on our traits. Not all traits are inherited by birth.

 

[prasad1]

Mr. Chandru's point

1. Abolition of various categories of brahmins (iyers/iyengars/madhwa) etc. And
subsects and follow only one system acceptable to all communites. This has
to be done immediately and only by the concerned acharyas and, if not, by the educated brahmin people, both men and women, who have interest in the community.

This shows the impracticality of this solution. If you think any acharya is going to give up his power over his follower, you have been smoking something weird.

8. Give equal importance to women for the empowerment of the community or
even the responsibility of managing the affairs may be given to women.

In TB community- this is a pipe dream.

4. Publishing a newspaper exclusively for the community.

Do you know that even established newspapers are finding it difficult to print newspapers? Newspapers can not be run on the basis of price of newspapers, they need advertising revenue and very deep pockets to buy news stories.

I think Vganeji and Chandruji have not spent any quality time on their suggestion. For a suggestion to be taken seriously you need to propose a workable solution.

You just do not throw enough mud at the wall, in the hope that some of it will stick.

I am all for TB's to do something constructive, instead of just wringing their hand in despair.

 

[sravna]

There are many among Non-brahmins who also possess these traits and many among brahmins who do not possess any of these traits. I think we cannot jump to a generalized conclusion on these traits which are strictly individualistic.

We can only give a generalized conclusion and not say anything at the individualistic level I think is what you mean and I agree with that.

 

[prasad1]

There is a certain definite perception of what brahmins are like in nature such as brilliant, soft, tolerant, law abiding etc. Nobody can really deny that such perceptions exist even though some may not be willing to admit the positive traits openly. The fact that these people so vociferously object to brahmins even having positive feelings, about their roots leave alone displaying it in attitude, strongly points to the fact that such people begrudge the positive traits of the brahmins.

Since many traits are common among brahmins, there is a strong case for inherited behaviour. Why do these people need proof for a brahmin gene and its superiortiy? If it is proved will they accept it wholeheartedly and so accept wholeheartedly that brahmins are superior? Their intention is not to arrive at a rational conclusion but to find one pretext or the other to put down the brahmins and their culture. They will keep objecting whatever you do. Ironically it is such people who really don't care for a rational assessment of the situation.

Sravnaji,
I have real difference with you on this genetic Traits for our behavior. This is not based on any scientific experiments.

Both Environment and Genetic Makeup Influence Behavior | Learn Science at Scitable

How do genes and the environment come together to shape animal behavior? Both play important roles. Genes capture the evolutionary responses of prior populations to selection on behavior. Environmental flexibility gives animals the opportunity to adjust to changes during their own lifetime.
.......

Evolution has acted so that genes and environment act to complement each other in yielding behavioral solutions to the survival challenges faced by animals. Innate, or instinctive, responses allow animals to benefit from generations of natural selection on behavior. Learning gives animals tools to respond to local conditions and changing environments. Understanding the relative roles of genes and the environment in determining human behavior continues to create controversy. Behavior is best seen as the result of evolutionary processes that sometimes create, through genetic coding, behavioral instructions for animals and at other times create flexible mechanisms to allow animals to solve problems specific to their environment.

Scientists have long studied the reasons why people develop different personalities, behaviors, thinking styles and temperaments, ultimately reaching the conclusion that a combination of genetic and environmental influences reflects equally in the overall understanding of personal development. Research involving identical twins who were separated at birth and eventually brought up within completely diverse families illustrate how there may exist some residual genetic components to inevitably assist in the overall developmental process, yet the twins ultimately grow up to be two very dissimilar individuals due to their respective upbringing.

Traits called Brahministic is a myth.
You of all people so well read in Advaita philosophy and Karma Theory should not propose this myth. Please update your POV.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sir,



I made a reply to your post in the "Your thoughts" thread but by the time I clicked the post button, the thread had been closed.

I am just giving the crux of my post:

1) Brahmins needed patronage, which shows that they were not the rulers. If not the thevars, nayakars, gounders, chettiars (TNGC) who were the kings really?
2) I wanted to point out that the hate rally by the NBs (whatever caste they may be) readily took up cudgels against the brahmins, and this is notwithstanding the smugness of the community.
3) It is after all a discussion, and we are here to give our point of view. I only feel this about the UP, in the tanglish language - "Chethule nambo vizhundhaalum, cheru nambo mele vizhundhaalum, azhukku ennamo nambo mele thaan padum" (If there are any grammatical errors, members are free to correct it).

Dear Shri auh,

1. The history of the tamil brahmins is not very clear. There is one set of opinion which holds that the words like 'anthaNar (அந்தணர்), pArppanar (பார்ப்பனர்), etc., which are found in the cangam literary works may not be referring to the later-day brahmins who recited the vedas of the North, performed fire sacrifices, etc., and that a distinct revered high class existed in the ancient Tamil society (read, Dravidian society). Hence, the Tamil Brahmins as we know them today are probably without roots in the Dravidian society and, naturally, in need of patronage. And such patronage to brahmins, all over India (not only in the south) usually came from the ruling dynasties and not the ruling castes or classes.

Take the earliest known case of Chandragupta Maurya. He was the progeny of one Mura, a courtesan or helper in the Nanda palace for queens (harem?). Paternity is not clear. But chANakya, a brahmin, helped him become an emperor and once he got regal status, Chandragupta belonged to the "kshatriya" clan of Mauryas and not to either his mother Mura's class/caste nor to his father's. If you will only read our vedas or authentic translations thereof, you will find that there are ceremonies like rAjasUyam which enable the brahmin (priesthood) to proclaim any one belonging to any caste (Brahmin, Vaisya and may be even Shudra) as a kshatriya and coronate him. By means of mantras the brahmin priests will give the benediction, "You have become the rAjA of all these people....etc." but also add "Soma is our king". By means of all such religious ceremonies, the brahmins, in my opinion, became king-makers and cleverly avoided making public that it was they who needed the patronage of the ruler.

The Travancore king Marthanda Varma, who belonged to the "aay" dynasty (of cowherd class, possibly) committed murder of some brahmins in his task of creating a large kingdom. The brahmins advised him to perform "hiranyagarbham", a golden egg, large enough to accommodate the adult king who will ceremoniously enter into the egg, its lid will be shut, mantras recited and the lid again opened, with the king emerging out of that golden egg as a full-fledged Kshatriya!! The golden egg is cut into pieces and gifted to brahmins later, after the ceremony. But despite this, the Namboodiris do not, even today, accept him as a full-fledged Kshatriya. This is perhaps the most recent instance I can cite.

2. The brahmins became, by their own continued over-confidence, a despised class within a short span of about two or three decades. When the British also made known that they had no love lost for the brahmins, by reserving certain % of government jobs for NBs, they (the NBs) knew that the Bs had been isolated and so they could do whatever they wanted.

3. I think it is not a simple question of "Chethule nambo vizhundhaalum, cheru nambo mele vizhundhaalum, azhukku ennamo nambo mele thaan padum", according to me; if it was so, we could wash the clothes & iron them, take a good shower bath and be our old selves again, but here the situation is that just as vAmana kicked down the mighty emperor Mahabali, the once mighty tabra community has been completely and irrevocably thrashed out of the Tamil Nadu social scene. Those who are still living in TN are doing so because they have nowhere else to relocate, but the laws of the land protect them to some extent. They are very acutely aware of this extreme helplessness and that is why this high level of touchiness in discussing that person or that unhappy episode. We were as obstinate now in this forum as the tabras were obstinate during the 1930's & 1940's. In the latter case, we know what happened. That's all I can say now.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Shri gane,

....Why is it that you have not asked your equally brahminist members like Vaagmi, Sravna, Ravi and side actors like Zebra, Sarang, Kalabhairavan, etc., to consider these suggestions at least?

Shri Sangom,

You have raised a very valid point.

BUT, Shri Vgane's suggestion to Shri.Chandru to pass on his recommendations to ******* makes very good sense, because, ******* is a well established Brahmin Organization, having reach through out Tamil Nadu, with presence of its branches, circulation of Magazines, Matrimonial services etc. As well is equipped well to be capable to sue a person or a group or media that has attempted to malign the Brahmin Community.

I am in Dubai and visit Chennai only for a month in a year. I will be very happy if a feasible action plan been worked out and am briefed about it, passed on with important contact numbers of members in TN who would back up and carry out the agenda as per recommendations of Shri.Chandu, I would do my best very sincerely, to spread them among our community people, as much as I can do.

Just because Shri Vgane gave a suggestion to Shri.Chandru, expecting a possible and quick undertaking by *******, doesn't mean, that the Members you have listed out including myself are not interested to make our contributions as per our possibilities and it can not be the right reason for you to find and conclude the weakness of Brahmin community based on this particular observation of yours.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Prasad,

I am trying to be consistent in what I understand. I mostly go by intuition in my approach to any problem even related to my career and only then I reason out step by step what I grasp by intuition. So personally I do not have any problem when I do not see any evidence in the physical world when I have to accept anything. The consistency among the premises presented alone convince me of the conclusion, of course with some basic asumptions.

The reason I say all of the above is because I see such a consistency in Hindu philosophy. So today I accept the core of it blindly and then try to rationalize it if I could. I think there is a rationale behind the classification according to gunas and that definite differences in terms of spiritual development exists.

By saying the above I am not putting down any of the other groups since as you have understood I believe there is really only one reality and the differences we see are only real in this world. The point is if I can just accept that differences exist now and take that only as a matter of fact without feeling superior and only try to further my spiritual growth with such an objective approach, I don't think a person who understands this will complain.

That is the rationale behind my views.

 

[Nara]

That is why I am constrained to point out the weaknesses of tabras which immediately becomes 'brahmin bashing'; I am sure this tactic of calling brahmin bashing is also an equally disgraceful strategy to shirk any possible task of doing something to make this community active.

.....Anyway, I feel we can at least discuss the suggestions of Shri Chandru and what can be done in/by/through this forum.

Dear Sangom, as the Brahmin Basher that the Brahminists love to hate, let me take a swipe at the suggestions given and enthusiastically welcomed by the OP.

1. Abolition of various categories of brahmins (iyers/iyengars/madhwa) etc. And subsects and follow only one system acceptable to all communites. This has to be done immediately and only by the concerned acharyas and, if not, by the educated brahmin people, both men and women, who have interest in the community.

Trying to mold a single system acceptable to all Brahmin castes directly contradicts the goal of preserving the culture. There are many Iyengars, not just orthodox, who won't step into any temple other than Perumal Kovil. Undergoing Panca Samskaram, and in the case of Vadakalai Baranyasam, are integral parts of their religious life. How will these aspects of their culture be preserved in an unified common system? In other words, a unified system cannot be achieved without destroying -- not even eroding, but completely eliminating -- many cherished cultural practices of at least some of the sub-castes. So, a unified system by its very development will negate the stated objective of preserving the Brahmin culture. at least for some of them. Is their culture not worth preserving?

Further, on a mundane level, there is so much rivalry among various sub-castes even within the Iyengar caste. I don't know about Iyer sub-castes, but I am personally familiar with it within the Iyengar sub-castes. The division is not just along the Kalai level, but within Vadakalai itself there are divisions, there is palpable loathing between Matam and Munithraiyam. When the previous Azhagiya Singar met Shankarachariyar there was severe criticism from Munithraiyam stalwarts. So, the proverbial hell may freeze over before the Brahmins agree on a unitary system that all Brahmins can follow.

2. Identify the brahmins (both men and women) who are seriously interested in the community and appoint them as caretakers.

Caretakers of what? What authority will they have to enforce their "caretaking" fatwas? Will they have the power to ostracize the disobedient?

Suggestions 3. to 5. are are so obviously bereft of any usefulness to the stated goal, I shall skip them. #6. is already being done, it seems.

7. Identify the reasons for ib / ir marriages thru professionals like psychiatrists, psychologists etc., and try to eliminate them.

To identify the reasons for IC/IR marriages you need to talk to and listen to the youngsters. It is not a disease that a psychiatrist can diagnose and prescribe a pill for. Neither is it a mental deviancy that a psychologist can explain with precision.

IC/IR marriages have always existed. Now, it is far more common and on the rise. The stigma is on the wane. White skinned daughter-in-law is a doll to be flaunted with pride, all clad in saree and a pottu on the forehead. But, I suppose if it was a Black son-in-law it still may be a problem.

8. Give equal importance to women for the empowerment of the community or even the responsibility of managing the affairs may be given to women.

This suggestion needs to the juxtaposed with the following observation Shri Chandru has made:

However, there is no harm if a brahmin boy marrying a nb girl, since the girl will become a brahmin after marriage, it is exactly on the opposite if a brahmin girl marrying a nb boy. Hence, we may even encourage a b boy to marry a nb girl.

If preserving the so called Brahmin culture means the control of the uteruses of their daughters, in what way is it possible to "give" importance to empowering women? "Give" is so dripping with male chauvinistic thinking the goal expressed, "equal importance to empowering women" is a non-starter.

9. Constant interaction is a must to avoid further erosion.

If this means interaction with children, yes, it is a must. If it is interaction among greying old men with the idea of "avoiding further erosion" I can tell the anxious Brahmin daughters, don't you worry, nothing is coming out of any of this.

Regards ....

 

[Vaagmi]

Sangom in 562:

1. The history of the tamil brahmins is not very clear. There is one set of opinion which holds that the words like 'anthaNar (அந்தணர்), pArppanar (பார்ப்பனர்), etc., which are found in the cangam literary works may not be referring to the later-day brahmins who recited the vedas of the North, performed fire sacrifices, etc., and that a distinct revered high class existed in the ancient Tamil society (read, Dravidian society). Hence, the Tamil Brahmins as we know them today are probably without roots in the Dravidian society and, naturally, in need of patronage. And such patronage to brahmins, all over India (not only in the south) usually came from the ruling dynasties and not the ruling castes or classes.

If the history is not very clear why do you authoritatively present it here and base your arguments on that speculation? "one set of opinion", "probably", "may not be" etc are speculative terms and you have used them liberally. And that gem of a conclusion come finally that "such patronage to brahmins came from the ruling dynasties and not the ruling castes or classes". Mr. Sangom what are you telling here? Is it that the ruling dynasties did not come from the ruling castes or classes, or that these dynasties did not have the support of ruling classes and castes and yet ruled? Who ruled whom? You have tied yourself in knots unnecessarily.

Take the earliest known case of Chandragupta Maurya. He was the progeny of one Mura, a courtesan or helper in the Nanda palace for queens (harem?).[COLOR=#DA7911 !important]Paternity[/COLOR] is not clear. But chANakya, a brahmin, helped him become an emperor and once he got regal status, Chandragupta belonged to the "kshatriya" clan of Mauryas and not to either his mother Mura's class/caste nor to his father's. If you will only read our vedas or authentic translations thereof, you will find that there are ceremonies like rAjasUyam which enable the brahmin (priesthood) to proclaim any one belonging to any caste (Brahmin, Vaisya and may be even Shudra) as a kshatriya and coronate him. By means of mantras the brahmin priests will give the benediction, "You have become the rAjA of all these people....etc." but also add "[COLOR=#DA7911 !important]Soma[/COLOR] is our king". By means of all such religious ceremonies, the brahmins, in my opinion, became king-makers and cleverly avoided making public that it was they who needed the patronage of the ruler.

If paternity was not known then how come you say tongue in cheek Chandragupta maurya belonged to kshatriya class and not to either his mother Mura's class/caste nor to his fathers. Don't you think you have contradicted your first sentence with the following sentence itself. Why this confusion?

The Travancore king Marthanda Varma, who belonged to the "aay" dynasty (of cowherd class, possibly) committed murder of some brahmins in his task of creating a large kingdom. The brahmins advised him to perform "hiranyagarbham", a [COLOR=#DA7911 !important]golden egg[/COLOR], large enough to accommodate the adult king who will ceremoniously enter into the egg, its lid will be shut, mantras recited and the lid again opened, with the king emerging out of that golden egg as a full-fledged Kshatriya!! The golden egg is cut into pieces and gifted to brahmins later, after the ceremony. But despite this, the Namboodiris do not, even today, accept him as a full-fledged Kshatriya. This is perhaps the most recent instance I can cite.

What do you prove by this? That the king Marthanda Varma was a மாங்கா மடையன் ? Come on Sangom. The king needed the approval of the subjects and he thought he would get it by pleasing the brahmins. That was perhaps the social reality that day. What is your grouse?

2. The brahmins became, by their own continued over-confidence, a despised class within a short span of about two or three decades. When the British also made known that they had no love lost for the brahmins, by reserving certain % of government jobs for NBs, they (the NBs) knew that the Bs had been isolated and so they could do whatever they wanted.

Yes they brought in the middle NB castes into the business. They gave them contracts, jobs and the official position of pimps. They thought they can not rely on brahmins for many of these services because they had their own mind. The truth you do not know. I will tell you the truth. The brahmins depended on the lands as much as the middle castes as that was the only productive asset those days. The droughts and repeated visit of these droughts robbed the brahmins of their properties because their holdings were marginal unlike the powerful middle NB castes). Landholdings below a critical level are bound to disappear in course of time if there are repeated droughts. Are you aware that there were 7 years of drought continuously in Tamilnadu at one time? There were many cases of complete ruination of families due to droughts. This weakened the community because brahmins were slowly perceived as பிச்சைக்கு வந்த பிராமணன். Then came the killer instinct of the Nb middle castes and with one fell blow they brought down the community.

3. I think it is not a simple question of "Chethule nambo vizhundhaalum, cheru nambo mele vizhundhaalum, azhukku ennamo nambo mele thaan padum", according to me; if it was so, we could wash the clothes & iron them, take a good shower bath and be our old selves again, but here the situation is that just as vAmana kicked down the mighty emperor Mahabali, the once mighty tabra community has been completely and irrevocably thrashed out of the Tamil Nadu social scene. Those who are still living in TN are doing so because they have nowhere else to relocate, but the laws of the land protect them to some extent. They are very acutely aware of this extreme helplessness and that is why this high level of touchiness in discussing that person or that unhappy episode. We were as obstinate now in this forum as the tabras were obstinate during the 1930's & 1940's. In the latter case, we know what happened. That's all I can say now.

The pity is that people like you who know very little of Tamil Brahmins history come here to crow loudly. I do not want to say anything about the last but one sentence because it is banned subject. I understand your anxiety about that God of you which has been thrown out. Thanks.

 

[sangom]

Sangom in his 532:

Smt. Renuka,



Sangom,

Though I could react to this calling names (“cantankerous” is not a decent word used in conversation by decent people.) I would say I am rather amused. I remember only the famous tamil quote which my father used to quote when he came across people like you –people who think and believe that they know every thing and yet know very little deeply about any thing. The tamil quote is this “ஆலிலை எப்படி இருக்கும் ஐயா? அட மடையா இது கூட தெரியாதா. அது புளிய இலை மாதிரி மஞ்சளா வேலியில படர்ந்திருக்கும்டா”. From your this post I have realized I have chosen the wrong audience to quote scientific journals and proven facts. It is just a திண்ணை. இங்கே கர்னாடக சங்கீத ராகங்களை(மட்டும்) அடித்து துவைத்து கிழித்து காயப்போட்டு மடித்து வைக்கவும்,, தங்களுக்குப்பிடித்த(ஆனால் சரியாக புரிந்துகொள்ளாத) விஷயங்களை வெத்தலையாகவும் பாக்காகவும் புகையிலையாகவும் போட்டு சவையோ சவை என்று சவைத்து இடமும் வலமும் துப்பி சித்திரம்(?) வரையவும் தெரிந்த, தங்களுடைய கடந்த காலங்களில் மட்டுமே வாழ்ந்து அப்படியே உறைந்து நின்றுவிட்டிருக்கும் பரிதாபமான ஜன்மங்களின் கூட்டம் கூடிப்பேசுகின்ற ஒரு திண்ணை. அவ்வளவே.

I respect your age. Otherwise I might have addressed you hey olman, and given you a bit of my mind about your calling me cantankerous.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

I did not know that "cantankerous" is not a decent word. During my working life, I have seen personal reports recorded by many eminent and well-read highly placed officials in which the employee/officer working below them used to be reported as "cantankerous" and, after referring the dictionary and coming to know that it means 'Stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate', 'Having a difficult and contrary disposition', 'irritable, ill-natured, quarrelsome, peevish', etc., I also have used, though rarely only, this word to describe some of the staff who worked under me and my superiors never admonished me for using indecent language.

Anyway, if you were hurt by my use of the word, I apologize sincerely and unconditionally. And I thank you for giving respect to my age.

When your words themselves are clear enough indications, I must thank you for sparing me (as also the forum members) for refraining from giving a bit of your mind too.

This forum, as you have rightly concluded, is more in the nature of திண்ணைப் பேச்சு (tiṇṇaip peccu) than a learned discussion forum like the Royal Society of England and similar highly prestigious fora. I thought that with your level of knowledge, scholarship, etc., you had taken an informed decision to lower yourself to this திண்ணைப் பேச்சு level, since, after all geniuses like Einstein may require some light, tension-free moments in life.

However, I fail to understand or agree with your observations regarding கர்னாடக சங்கீத ராகங்களை(மட்டும்) அடித்து துவைத்து கிழித்து காயப்போட்டு மடித்து வைக்கவும், because to the best of my knowledge it is only Smt. Raji Ram who writes about Carnatic Music in one thread and I do not venture there because I have very little knowledge of that field.

You are probably quite right when you say தங்களுக்குப்பிடித்த(ஆனால் சரியாக புரிந்துகொள்ளாத) விஷயங்களை வெத்தலையாகவும் பாக்காகவும் புகையிலையாகவும் போட்டு சவையோ சவை என்று சவைத்து இடமும் வலமும் துப்பி சித்திரம்(?) வரையவும் தெரிந்த, persons are participating in the discussions here. Yes, I am one such and I feel that through this lowly forum of nincompoops, I may stand to benefit whereas if I spend the same time in any other learned forum where all the members will be of your high knowledge standards, or even higher, things will simply go over my head

But I have to respectfully differ from you in the last part of your assessment viz., தங்களுடைய கடந்த காலங்களில் மட்டுமே வாழ்ந்து அப்படியே உறைந்து நின்றுவிட்டிருக்கும் பரிதாபமான ஜன்மங்களின் கூட்டம். Sir, we have here many youngsters, middle aged people who are all still living their lives with zeal and do not belong to "people who live in their past only and have ossified in that position itself" (தங்களுடைய கடந்த காலங்களில் மட்டுமே வாழ்ந்து அப்படியே உறைந்து நின்றுவிட்டிருக்கும்). Many of the honourable members here also will not satisfy your description of பரிதாபமான ஜன்மங்களின் கூட்டம் (group of pitiable persons) because many here have made it really good in their lives both in India and abroad.

Subject to the above humble remarks, I now proceed further.

Sangom you have wasted your time. Instead of going to Wikipedia where raw opinions are just presented, you could have gone to either UCLA library on line or to the website of Robert Boyd where the synopsis of his theory is given. I fear your going to Renuka to do an interpretation is going to be of any use.

You see, sir, I would have tried to understand something about your line of argument if only the scientific journals and supporting evidence to prove the scientific basis of your arguments had been given or their url furnished. I tried to understand Boyd's arguments viz., that culture transforms genes. But the notion of "culture" itself was not clear to a halfwit like myself and the following explanation completely confounded me:

"Particular manifestations of culture find their primary significance in other cultural manifestations, and can be most fully understood in terms of these manifestations; whereas they cannot be specifically explained from the generic organic endowment of the human personality, even though cultural phenomena must always conform to the frame of this endowment." (Culture Is Essential by Peter J. Richerson and Robert Boyd, excerpted from Not By Genes Alone: How Culture Transformed Human Evolution)

That was when I found that there had been some mention of lactose intolerance by yourself here and I googled that. Since that also showed no sign of culture interaction with personality or genetic structure, I thought of writing a post to Smt. Renuka.

Even now I am not clear as to how culture will modify the genes. But I recollect one very aged Telugu smarta brahmin lawyer who had eleven children of which one became a thief and went to jail. The father moaned the tragedy saying "in my lineage such a thing happening? How is it possible?". So, I think that even after thousands of years of culture shaping that family's genes as per Boyd, something went wrong somewhere.

I understand what you are trying to say obliquely. You know, people who dig the gutter will get only the smell of….you know what. Those who grind sandol will get the fragrance of sandal. The stink here is too bad.

I was not saying anything obliquely. If lactase persistence is a culturally formed genetic trait over thousands of years how come just one infection episode will completely wipe it out? I think Boyd's theory is, as TKS has stated, just not yet accepted science.

That said, even a dull wit like me will leave the gutter once and for all and find where sandal is available to grind? Possibly in Tirupathi temple, what with the price of sandalwood!!

 

[Vaagmi]

Dear Sangom, as the Brahmin Basher that the Brahminists love to hate, let me take a swipe at the suggestions given and enthusiastically welcomed by the OP.

Trying to mold a single system acceptable to all Brahmin castes directly contradicts the goal of preserving the culture. There are many Iyengars, not just orthodox, who won't step into any temple other than Perumal Kovil. Undergoing Panca Samskaram, and in the case of Vadakalai Baranyasam, are integral parts of their religious life. How will these aspects of their culture be preserved in an unified common system? In other words, a unified system cannot be achieved without destroying -- not even eroding, but completely eliminating -- many cherished cultural practices of at least some of the sub-castes. So, a unified system by its very development will negate the stated objective of preserving the Brahmin culture. at least for some of them. Is their culture not worth preserving?

Further, on a mundane level, there is so much rivalry among various sub-castes even within the Iyengar caste. I don't know about Iyer sub-castes, but I am personally familiar with it within the Iyengar sub-castes. The division is not just along the Kalai level, but within Vadakalai itself there are divisions, there is palpable loathing between Matam and Munithraiyam. When the previous Azhagiya Singar met Shankarachariyar there was severe criticism from Munithraiyam stalwarts. So, the proverbial hell may freeze over before the Brahmins agree on a unitary system that all Brahmins can follow.

Caretakers of what? What authority will they have to enforce their "caretaking" fatwas? Will they have the power to ostracize the disobedient?

Suggestions 3. to 5. are are so obviously bereft of any usefulness to the stated goal, I shall skip them. #6. is already being done, it seems.

To identify the reasons for IC/IR marriages you need to talk to and listen to the youngsters. It is not a disease that a psychiatrist can diagnose and prescribe a pill for. Neither is it a mental deviancy that a psychologist can explain with precision.

IC/IR marriages have always existed. Now, it is far more common and on the rise. The stigma is on the wane. White skinned daughter-in-law is a doll to be flaunted with pride, all clad in saree and a pottu on the forehead. But, I suppose if it was a Black son-in-law it still may be a problem.



This suggestion needs to the juxtaposed with the following observation Shri Chandru has made:

If preserving the so called Brahmin culture means the control of the uteruses of their daughters, in what way is it possible to "give" importance to empowering women? "Give" is so dripping with male chauvinistic thinking the goal expressed, "equal importance to empowering women" is a non-starter.


If this means interaction with children, yes, it is a must. If it is interaction among greying old men with the idea of "avoiding further erosion" I can tell the anxious Brahmin daughters, don't you worry, nothing is coming out of any of this.



Regards ....

Dear Sri Chandru,

Shorn of verbage, the gist of Mr. Nara's message is this:

1. You brahmins can never unite for anything.(Nara:I have been telling you this again and again here)
2. If you have to unite then the first option is that the various subgroups should give up their individuality first and merge into a single monolithic mess.(Nara gleefully clapping his hands: I know each of you clowns. If you try to do any such thing I will enjoy the clashes from the sidelines because my prediction would have come true)
3. Give up all your efforts. And surrender to the IC/IR marriages. (Nara: may be this is perhaps what Krishna said in BG when he said sarva dharmaan parithyajya...)

4. You may even get a doll like curvaceous and firm bodied white damsel as your wife or D-in law with a tilak and suggestive madisar saree to boot. Won't you love that? Won't you like to flaunt that doll?

5. Don't bother about the uteruses of your daughter. Just give her unconditional love and condoms every time when she goes out on one of those endless/numerous trial and error dating with her boy/girl friend (make sure the condom is of good quality). Or you can go one step further and use ovulation strips to determine the "danger" period and warn your daughter so that she can remain unrestrained on other days. You have to just live for six months in US or in one of those nordic European nations to know all these tricks of the trade. The idea is, you should never waste your money on Psychological counselling of your daughter about the advantages of same caste marriage. Instead all these OTC equipments will stand you in good stead. Don't be a chauvinistic pig. Instead let your daughter be a ......

Now Mr. Chandru what do you do with this message? I am sure you have a dust bin.

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Sri Chandru,

Shorn of verbage, the gist of Mr. Nara's message is this:

1. You brahmins can never unite for anything.(Nara:I have been telling you this again and again here)
2. If you have to unite then the first option is that the various subgroups should give up their individuality first and merge into a single monolithic mess.(Nara gleefully clapping his hands: I know each of you clowns. If you try to do any such thing I will enjoy the clashes from the sidelines because my prediction would have come true)
3. Give up all your efforts. And surrender to the IC/IR marriages. (Nara: may be this is perhaps what Krishna said in BG when he said sarva dharmaan parithyajya...)

4. You may even get a doll like curvaceous and firm bodied white damsel as your wife or D-in law with a tilak and suggestive madisar saree to boot. Won't you love that? Won't you like to flaunt that doll?

5. Don't bother about the uteruses of your daughter. Just give her condoms every time when she goes out on one of those endless/numerous trial and error dating with her boy/girl friend (make sure the condom is of good quality). Or you can go one step further and use ovulation strips to determine the "danger" period and warn your daughter so that she can remain unrestrained on other days. You have to just live for six months in US or in one of those nordic European nations to know all these tricks of the trade. The idea is, you should never waste your money on Psychological counselling of your daughter about the advantages of same caste marriage. Instead all these OTC equipments will stand you in good stead. Don't be a chauvinistic pig. Instead let your daughter be a ......

Now Mr. Chandru what do you do with this message? I am sure you have a dust bin.

:lol:

 

[sangom]

Shri Sangom,

You have raised a very valid point.

BUT, Shri Vgane's suggestion to Shri.Chandru to pass on his recommendations to ******* makes very good sense, because, ******* is a well established Brahmin Organization, having reach through out Tamil Nadu, with presence of its branches, circulation of Magazines, Matrimonial services etc. As well is equipped well to be capable to sue a person or a group or media that has attempted to malign the Brahmin Community.

I am in Dubai and visit Chennai only for a month in a year. I will be very happy if a feasible action plan been worked out and am briefed about it, passed on with important contact numbers of members in TN who would back up and carry out the agenda as per recommendations of Shri.Chandu, I would do my best very sincerely, to spread them among our community people, as much as I can do.

Just because Shri Vgane gave a suggestion to Shri.Chandru, expecting a possible and quick undertaking by *******, doesn't mean, that the Members you have listed out including myself are not interested to make our contributions as per our possibilities and it can not be the right reason for you to find and conclude the weakness of Brahmin community based on this particular observation of yours.

I feel there is a standing ban on anything to do with *******, in this forum. Possibly that ban has not been revoked. I view Shri Gane's asking Chandru to send copy to ******* and not saying anything more in his post as tantamount to saying that it is for ******* to do with the remarks "Dear Chandru,

Your message is very relevant, concise and actionable...I think Thambras has to take this up..You can forward to them also." as clear indication that it is for Thambras to take this up.

It is this "passing the buck" which I commented upon.

 

[Nara]

:lol:

Ravi, I am glad you got a kick out of the mocking. Mocking is easy and probably fun too. To present a cogent and rational argument is much more satisfying.

BTW, it would be nice if you could respond to my post 472. Please do not change the topic to why IC/IR is bad, this is about your assertion that what I advocate is "completely giving up everything and merging with the alien culture".

For your reference:

4. The recommendations of reform by reformists involves completely giving up everything and merging with the alien culture. That is why it invites strong criticism here.

Shri Vaagmi, your concluding point no.4 correctly reveals what exactly Shri Nara, Shri Sangom and Shri Kunjuppu are advocating and why the strong criticism erupts here from the opposite camp.

 

[C RAVI]

Ravi, I am glad you got a kick out of the mocking. Mocking is easy and probably fun too. To present a cogent and rational argument is much more satisfying.

BTW, it would be nice if you could respond to my post 472. Please do not change the topic to why IC/IR is bad, this is about your assertion that what I advocate is "completely giving up everything and merging with the alien culture".

For your reference:

Shri Nara,

I didn't get kick out of mocking. In fact, I have not found Shri Vaagmi's post mocking on that of yours. I could sense lots of pain in Shri Vaagmi's post and same is the case with my "LOL" smilie.

Shri Vagmi's post no.568 reflected what any other member can derive from your post no.565, IMO.



Shri Nara, regarding your repeated request to me for my specific reply -


I already replied to you in detail. But, that's not convincing to you and I can't help further..

In short, I said that, your 100's of posts here in various threads related to issues that Brahmins are concerned about and finding possible solutions, especially when the issue in hand is about Brahmin girls opting for IC/IR marriages, you readily have advised Brahmins to embrace their choices as the "best resort" for the Smart Brahmins to live a Human and Pragmatic life. We have not find any pro-active recommendations from your side that can help sustain Brahmin Community.

Time and again, when you repeatedly say, on each given chance, that, objection to IC/IR marriages by Brahmins is the result of Brahmins Supremacy, Brahmins Arrogance and Brahmins Hypocrisy showing false inclination towards Brahmanism of "today's" Brahmins with no ditto practices as per Brahmins forefathers etc..etc, what else it shows about your rational & revolutionary thoughts/intentions other than expecting Brahmin community to vanish in due course of time (as quickly as possibly) by shedding everything related to Brahmanism and getting merged with other culture, considering Brahmanism of today a Zilch and just a community in disguise?

Such ideologies of yours and other like minded members were the reason behind Shri.Venkata Raman & Shri.Swaminatha Sarma kicking themselves out of this Forum, once for all.

 

[Nara]

....Shri Nara, regarding your repeated request to me for my specific reply -


I already replied to you in detail. But, that's not convincing to you and I can't help further..

Ok, fair enough .... But, the fact is you can't show a single post where I have advocated "completely giving up everything and merging with the alien culture" because I have never advocated it.

 

[C RAVI]

Ok, fair enough .... But, the fact is you can't show a single post where I have advocated "completely giving up everything and merging with the alien culture" because I have never advocated it.

Shri Nara,

Yes, I agree completely with your above statement..

But, the thing is, if telling things straight away is one way, then, telling the same thing in many different ways are other ways of telling the same thing and both the former and the later keeps the crux of the message intact.

 

[sangom]

Sangom in 562:


[/B]
If the history is not very clear why do you authoritatively present it here and base your arguments on that speculation? "one set of opinion", "probably", "may not be" etc are speculative terms and you have used them liberally. And that gem of a conclusion come finally that "such patronage to brahmins came from the ruling dynasties and not the ruling castes or classes". Mr. Sangom what are you telling here? Is it that the ruling dynasties did not come from the ruling castes or classes, or that these dynasties did not have the support of ruling classes and castes and yet ruled? Who ruled whom? You have tied yourself in knots unnecessarily.

Dear Shri Vaagmi,

Before I venture to respond to your -as usual - brilliant remarks, may I ask you what draws and keeps you coming again & again to this "stinking gutter"? Is it that you are unable to find any sandal grinding forum?

When we nitwits make posts in this stinking forum, we or at least I, use the phrases like "one set of opinion", "probably", "may not be" etc. Most other members being on the same wavelength as myself, we don't insist on non-user of these phrases, as in forums citing scientific journals and proven facts.


I am surprised that a phenomenal intellect such as yours is not capable of understanding (or is it that there is a tendency on your part to be stubbornly obstructive and unwilling to cooperate?) the simple fact that many shudra kings have been there but once they become kings, thanks to the brahmins' cooperation, they graduate themselves as Kshatriyas, ask the very same brahmins to bestow them with a geneology and it has been the custom to create legends showing the newly crowned king as coming in Surya vamsa or Chandra vamsa. From that point onwards, as a Kshatriya, the king gets a seat of honour in the brahmins' yAgasAla and this honour will disappear if he (the king) continues to pose himself as belonging to his erstwhile caste/class/group or whatever.

Once the kingship was approved by the brahmins all castes followed the dictats of the king. Thus the king ruled all his subjects.

If paternity was not known then how come you say tongue in cheek Chandragupta maurya belonged to kshatriya class and not to either his mother Mura's class/caste nor to his fathers. Don't you think you have contradicted your first sentence with the following sentence itself. Why this confusion?

Mura is held to be a dAsi in the Nanda kingdom by historians. History being what it is, there obviously cannot be scientific proof for each and every statement. You are, however, free to do your own research and present your findings with necessary supporting evidence, keeping in mind the standards of this forum. (all of low intelligence, just திண்ணைப் பேச்சு level of intellects here). Only when Chandragupta was crowned "king", did he become a kshatriya and the name came to be known to later history as Chandragupta Maurya and the dynasty also is now identified as the Maurya dynasty. Since the name gupta appears in the name some historians say that possibly he owed allegiance to some Vaisya caste. In any case, once the coronation was over Chandragupta became a kshatriya in the eyes of the ancient indians living in his empire. His paternity was not relevant there.

What do you prove by this? That the king Marthanda Varma was a மாங்கா மடையன் ? Come on Sangom. The king needed the approval of the subjects and he thought he would get it by pleasing the brahmins. That was perhaps the social reality that day. What is your grouse?

Did I say I have any grouse? Come on Shri Vaagmi, why do you want to flash out your difficult and contrary disposition in this stinking gutter, again and again? go find some sandalwood forest. lots of king cobras will be there for you to match your venom with. Or else settle down in Agumbe itself.

Now, you have yourself admitted that in 'that day' the social reality was that by pleasing the brahmins one could get the approval of all his subjects. Yet one para before you had all kinds of doubt about Chandagupta doing the same. Strange are the ways of super-intellects indeed!!

Yes they brought in the middle NB castes into the business. They gave them contracts, jobs and the official position of pimps. They thought they can not rely on brahmins for many of these services because they had their own mind. The truth you do not know. I will tell you the truth. The brahmins depended on the lands as much as the middle castes as that was the only productive asset those days. The droughts and repeated visit of these droughts robbed the brahmins of their properties because their holdings were marginal unlike the powerful middle NB castes). Landholdings below a critical level are bound to disappear in course of time if there are repeated droughts. Are you aware that there were 7 years of drought continuously in Tamilnadu at one time? There were many cases of complete ruination of families due to droughts. This weakened the community because brahmins were slowly perceived as பிச்சைக்கு வந்த பிராமணன். Then came the killer instinct of the Nb middle castes and with one fell blow they brought down the community.

I see that like the saying which goes as போத்திக்கிணே படுத்துக்கலாம், படுத்துக்கிணே போத்திக்கலாம், etc., you also agree that "brahmins were slowly perceived as பிச்சைக்கு வந்த பிராமணன்". Whether this was due only to the seven-year drought or due to other reasons also is the important question.

The pity is that people like you who know very little of Tamil Brahmins history come here to crow loudly. I do not want to say anything about the last but one sentence because it is banned subject. I understand your anxiety about that God of you which has been thrown out. Thanks.

I agree that I may not know everything about Tamil Brahmins' histrory. But you have not yet proved your credentials about knowing everything about that subject either; yet you feel you can crow and that you have a right to crow. perhaps that is Robert Boyd's theory. FYI, my ancestry is from Tamil Nadu and till my father-in-law's time they had small agricultural lands there, now all sold. Hence, you seem to be an ideal example of தனக்குப்பிடித்த(ஆனால் சரியாக புரிந்துகொள்ளாத) விஷயங்களை வெத்தலையாகவும் பாக்காகவும் புகையிலையாகவும் போட்டு சவையோ சவை என்று சவைத்து இடமும் வலமும் துப்பி சித்திரம்(?) வரையவும் தெரிந்த, தன்னுடைய கடந்த காலங்களில் மட்டுமே வாழ்ந்து அப்படியே உறைந்து நின்றுவிட்டிருக்கும் பரிதாபமான ஜன்மம்.