Is reconciliation possible

[Subramanian Natarajan]

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And there is more to this story,the real problem with the girls marrying out is that,the husbands get henpecked and start becoming vegetarian and the kids also grow up like brahmins.Thats the sad part,my jaat friend is now eating paruppu thogayal and molagu koottan for lunch.He is getting culturally invaded and his kids ll grow up talking tamizh.

Anyway thats the corollary.

 

[sangom]

Folks,

I have observed that such ic/ir marriages are more in the case of highly conservative tabra households. At the other end of the spectrum there are a few upper crust (as well as lowest layer) tabras who just do not stuff their children's brains with brahmin glory and what a priceless jewel they are which is not to be squandered away in NB alliances. The upper crust marry even IR and there is no problem at least as far as outsiders know. The lowest layer marriages also go on, but frankly our community all but neglects them and what they do, etc., - a sort of brahmin sudras

In the conservative households the girl starts earning a handsome salary, gets an opportunity to work and mingle with NB boys, non-Hindu boys etc., on equal terms - both adults - and she feels an ic/ir marriage will be "two birds with one shot"; one, she will get a life free of all the restrictions and pretended religiosities of a tabra household, and, two, it will be the best way of making her parents rethink their brahministic pretensions and come to honest terms with the reality of their pretensions.

Of course I know two cases of a very highly qualified (M.Tech) and very well-employed girls who could not get a tabra groom till they both were very overaged and married her Ezhava colleagues. In one case the parents accepted her marriage fully while in the other the father makes a fool of himself by not speaking to his daughter, though the mother is in normal terms and goes to her house, etc. This father recently celebrated his 70th. birthday (Sapthathi, malayalis celebrate it) and I was told the daughter sent costly presents.

My considered opinion is that any wise couple (parents) should accept the alliance of their children gracefully if they have not been able to dissuade them. Otherwise we will only leave permanent embitterment in the minds of our own children when we finally get out of this world. Even tabras who are cocksure of moksha will be doing that imho.

 

[kkumar29]

Dear all,

I have been reading the posts regarding ic/ir marriages in this thread with interest. Everyone seems to be worrying about the parents' feelings but there are very few posts about the actual couple who are getting married. All posts make assumptions that the girl/boy getting married need directions. It makes me smile when they think the girls/boys are old enough to get married but are not mature enough to know what they want. All anecdotes involve a near relative or a friend. But not a single post which describes personal experience to substantiate their claim. So here is one.

As I have mentioned in the past I am married to a Catholic for more than 30 years and we have had no problems. My parents or my wife's parents contributed to the marriage by being there when we needed them. Yes my parents were cheesed off and so were her parents when we go married. But they had enough confidence in the way they brought up their children, that they accepted their dil/sil completely. I have participated in all religious functions in her family as a family member and she has participated in my family functions completely as my wife. When my parents passed away she was their wearing a traditional nine yard saree holding the darbai (I believe that is what is called). I was there as the SIL when her parents passed away.

Based on my experience I would suggest for people to look at it as an opportunity to learn something new about another culture and take the goodness from it. You know what, the christian philosophy is no different than hindu philosophy when it comes to leading your everyday life. They are very similar. It is only the fundamentalists in both religions who create the problems. For this you need to have absolute confidence in your belief that nothing can take it away. It makes me wonder whether all the angst expressed in this thread is because people basically lack the absolute confidence in their own belief.

My humble advice to parents who are faced with the situation of their children wanting to marry into another caste is to provide the support that they will need to succeed. Embrace the dil/sil with open arms. If there is pressure from relatives tell them to mind their own business because when problems arise they are not going to be their for your children but you will be. Believe me in the long run those very same nay sayers will come back on their own accord after witnessing the success of the marriage. Any marriage is hard work to make it work. This kind of marriage should be no different.

My two cents worth.

K. Kumar

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I have come across a few I/C marriages.In most of the cases,the parents relent
after some lapse of time.Recently I visited Srirangam and met a very orthodox family.
The head of the family is very orthodox and is doing Sandhyavandanam regularly.He has two daughters.Both have married N/B boys.When I visited their house the first daughter has just delivered a female child and parents are extending all help.The SIL visit them every evening and leaves for his residence after taking Dinner.The second daughter is leaving her child with her parents while going to office and both the daughter and SIL
come in the evening to take their child.In this case,I find perfect reconciliation has taken place.
In another case one family friend had 4 daughters and the first girl was only married.The second girl was employed in Postal department and wanted to marry
a N/B boy working in the same department.When she approached her father,
he blessed his girl to have a happy married life,but requested his daughter that he may have to marry off the remaining two daughters within the community and firmly told his daughter that she should severe her connection with this family.It is more than 10 years,there is no contact between the second daughter and rest of the family members. The other girls
are married to Brahmin boys and leading a happy married life.The father and mother of the girls have left this world.When I met one of the girls recently and enquired about the second daughter,she informed me that her elder sister(second daughter) never contacted the other sisters who are also not interested in trying to know the whereabouts of their sister who married the N/B guy.She only expressed the hope that her sister may be living happily with her husband.
I for one would like to respect the decision of the father of the girls and may not like
to either support his decision or criticize his decision.
What I want to emphasize here is the affected parties are the best judges in their cases and I as a member of Brahmin society cannot enforce my view on such affected parties.

 

[kunjuppu]

BK,

re your post # 179

good instances narration of real life experience. it shows there are no rules, and as observers, we should learn from the faults and mistakes of others.

we the public have no say in the matter of the 4 girls father. i know of instance in my own surrounding, where the eldest daughter, unhappily married, waited till all the siblings got married, and then left the husband. the girl has since then, remarried, a white guy.

it took about 7 years for the parents to reconcile to the fact, that she abandoned the relationship that they help make. but when they met the happy girl + extremely gently white husband, they accepted the situation. may not be whole heartedly, and probably with some regret too. had the girl got into a second unhappy marriage, atleast they could have blamed her for her senselessness, but when it turns to be otherwise, they cannot but swallow their pride and move on.

my take on this, is that life is so short. yes, we all are in here for eternity, recycling our births, but this life is what we feel. how can a parent, who brought a child into this world, given them so much affection and succour, abandon the same child, because into adulthood, she follows her primary need to mate?

why do we, as a culture, deny the basic instict of a person, to partner and procreate? is it that much a sin?

i agree that cultural norms are very strong. in my family in india. each time, i receive a wedding invitation, about 3/ of them are louv, but within the same iyer clan (one to an iyengar), for my chennai domiciled relatives.

in the north, where the children of marriageable age, are second generation, there appears to be more leeway. all and i mean all, delhi/cal/bom brought up kids, are into louv, with maharashtrians, UP wallahs, bengus or gujjus - not necessarily brahmins, but what i would call forward caste, and definitely forward economically, socially and monetarily.

in fact, most of these northie kids, do not consider themselves 'tamil' anymore, a status tolerated by their parents. just as my parents spoke talayalam, these kids speak hindlish at home.

only sometimes confusion happens. a neice of mine, mumbai brought up, married a menon, also mumbai upbrought. she had the habit of saying 'achchaa! achchaa!' every other sentence; except that the boy's grandfather was addressed 'achchaa' (father) by his family, and soon he would come running to his new grand daughter in law, only to find duped

louv is a strong bond, and where parental approval is withheld, it is even more strong, i feel. for without a recourse to vent any potential disagreements, the couple will work hard, to make the marriage a success. the result being perfect opposite of what the disapproving parents may have wanted.

i too have a story of an unforgiving father. his son married a malayali christian girl. the son was banished, and the father went to his grave without making up. in this case, the father was a tyrant, and the son deliberately chose a wife outside the clan, just to make a point, and perhaps, seal his disconnect from his father. the mother, ever docile, went along with the dad. so did rest of the siblings. the only one who kept in touch was the elder son's wife, but that too, only very discretly, and without the knowledge of the rest of the family

 

[sangom]

I for one would like to respect the decision of the father of the girls and may not like to either support his decision or criticize his decision.
What I want to emphasize here is the affected parties are the best judges in their cases and I as a member of Brahmin society cannot enforce my view on such affected parties.

Shri Krishnamurthy sir,

It is very clear that people outside a family have no right to decide what that family should do in case an IC/IR marriage happens to take place. But surely, people outside will definitely have - and they have a right to - form their own opinions and conclusions. Viewed in that light only is the discussion taking place here, imho and our views are not binding on anyone, except perhaps ourselves.

Coming to the four-daughter family which you have referred, if I were in that father's place I would have adopted one of the following courses:—

• Request the second daughter to keep her love without publicity, (request the concerned NB boy also similarly) for a few (two or three years maximum)years, if the other 3 girls could be married off in that time - depends on age of the four girls which is not furnished.
• Marry off the first daughter to a suitable B boy or whatever is considered socially correct and then conduct the second daughter's marriage. If the second daughter's love affair happens to block the elder one's proposals, allow freedom to all the other three to find out and select their own mates. (In fact I have a live case of a gentleman Tabra, now 80+, who has five (or six) daughters. The eldest is married to a tabra but the rest have married from Nair (Ezhava?), Tabra, and other castes. The Nair (Ezhava) couple are staying in our colony, very decent people. The old man and his wife are also in this colony only with their only (physically handicapped) son, dil and their single daughter studying B.Tech. All the daughters and sons-in-law are very well-placed and that shows how shrewd the girls had been in selecting their life partners. The Tabra dil cooks and supplies food to homes and they also live quite reasonably well - though mil-dil fights seem to be there.

I therefore feel that the decision of the father of the 4D family was not good.

 

[informed]

IC marriages are very important decisions one has to make in that point of life. One has to recognize that they are about to break a very long chain of genetic, knowledge, traditional, spiritual and cultural lineage and accept that they are about to get into something very different. As a father, I would tend to respect that decision and go along; and as son/daughter I would take responsibility for my helplessness in continuing this chain.

However, IRs are quite dangerous imo. Many cases always force convertion at some point against the will of the girl or boy, through various means including emotional and physical threats. There are so many cases of abductions of girls by boys, till even human trafficing to pak and arab countries. Lets not get carried away by exceptions like the gentlement who did srardham with his christian wife, I assume they are not in India.

 

[prasad1]

IC marriages are very important decisions one has to make in that point of life. One has to recognize that they are about to break a very long chain of genetic, knowledge, traditional, spiritual and cultural lineage and accept that they are about to get into something very different. As a father, I would tend to respect that decision and go along; and as son/daughter I would take responsibility for my helplessness in continuing this chain.

However, IRs are quite dangerous imo. Many cases always force convertion at some point against the will of the girl or boy, through various means including emotional and physical threats. There are so many cases of abductions of girls by boys, till even human trafficing to pak and arab countries. Lets not get carried away by exceptions like the gentlement who did srardham with his christian wife, I assume they are not in India.

In this age, where the world is shrinking, and we as Indians are becoming a global players. Forget about IC/IR it is becoming more International. We went to a family gathering, it looked more like a UN. Yes it becomes difficult to include everyone, and not hurt some feelings. Sometimes you break into Tamil, or discuss some old tradition and realize that you lost half your people.

I would not put great faith in traditions, as they will be ever changing. If they do not change then that society will die.

 

[suraju06]

Nara,

You have said:

Contrast this with the practice of strict segregation practiced in all SV Matham along caste lines. The SV practice today specifically forbids what SPVP says they must do,

அவர்கள் காலிலே விழுங்கோள் .. அவர்களை ஆராதியுங்கோள் .... அவர்கள் உண்ட சேஷத்தை புஜியுங்கோள் ..... அவர்களின் ஸ்ரீபாத தீர்த்தம் அருந்துங்கோள்.

To answer you I need a clarification. Please let me know what do you mean by the word "அவர்கள்".

 

[suraju06]

Nara,

Please refer to your post #133.

Nara,

Before taking up your pet theme “ மத ஹேது ….. தம ஹேது…..வித்யா வருத்தங்களும் ஜன்மொத்கர்ஷங்களும் ……..etc., I would like to clear a few other issues with you first.. I had been telling you and the members of this forum that you are in the habit of misinterpreting and twisting the words of Alwar and Acharya’s to suit your passions and revolutionary fervour. You have been denying this. Now I would clear this one first –please read this:

You had said in Enge Vaishnavam thread as follows:

(1)

But I want to highlight just one verse from the very first 10 verses, known as திருப்பல்லாண்டு. Here is the last two lines of verse #5:
.தொண்டக்குலத்திலுள்ளீர் வந்தடி தொழுது ஆயிரம் நாமம் சொல்லி
பண்டைக் குலத்தைத் தவிர்ந்து, பல்லாண்டு பல்லாயிரத்தாண்டு என்மினே!
(thoNdak kulaththil uLLIr! vandhadi thozudhu Ayira nAmam solli
paNdaik kulaththaith thavirndhu pallANdu pallAyiraththANdu enminE)
Here, by பண்டைக்குலம் Azhvar is referring to the high born brahmins. He is calling out to them to relinquish the high born status, "பண்டைக் குலத்தைத் தவிர்ந்து" and join the assembly of humble servants of Sriman Narayana தொண்டக்குலம்.Even though this Azhvar was and still is celebrated with the unique honor as being Sriman Narayana's மாமனார், his words of social reform never took hold among the Sri Vaishnava Brahmins. His lofty words were given very narrow interpretation by later day status-quo commentators.
More than 1200 years ago this Azhvar dreamed of a casteless and egalitarian congregation of Sri Vaishnavas. Where did this fervor go? எங்கே such Sri Vaishnavas?

Here by பண்டைக்குலம் Alwar is not referring to “the high born brahmins” as interpreted by you. As is evident to any one without prejudice பெரியவாச்சான் பிள்ளை has also correctly interpreted it as follows in his commentry: பண்டைக்குலத்தைத்தவிர்ந்து -தொண்டக்குலத்திலே வந்தன்வயித்தவாறே “மமேதம்” என்றிருந்த காலம் ஜன்மாந்தரமாய் தோற்றுமிரே . ஒரு ஜன்மத்திலே த்விஜன்மனாகிரானிரே -ராஜர்ஷியான விஸ்வாமித்திரன் அந்த ஜன்மத்திலே பிரம்மர்ஷியனானிரே . அங்கு ஒரு தபஸ் ஸாலே வர்ண பேதம் பிறந்தது ; இங்கு பகவத் ப்ரசாதத்தாலே ஸ்வரூப பேதம் பிறந்தது…..இப்படி ஆனந்யப்ரயோஜனரான நீங்கள் மங்களாசாசனம் பண்ணு ங்கள் …..

I am sure I do not have to translate this for you. ‘ஸ்வரூப பேதம் ’ as different from ‘வர்ண பேதம்’ is the term used by acharya PVP. The caste, as it is understood by you, was no where there in the mind of Alwar or PVP. So, Nara, you stand exposed. My statement that you are in the habit of twisting and misinterpreting alwars’ and acharya’s words to suit your misplaced revolutionary fervour stands proved.

Misinterpreting ancient literature and in the process superimposing your own prejudices and passions on those literature is worst than telling a lie. This is so because you are not only telling a lie here but also moving ahead building a castle of lies over that shaky foundation.

(2) You had again said in #10 in the thread ‘Enge Vaishnavam’ on 11-11-2009:

The brahmin Azhvar is not limiting his desire for servitude to just Brahmin bhakthas, but all bhakthas. How can I say this from the above pasuram? Well, the answer is in verse #41, #42 and #43 of Thirumalai. You need to look at all three to get a grasp of the Azhvar's progressive fire some 1200 to 1300 years ago.
#41வானுளார் அறியலாகா வானவா என்பராகில்
தேனுலாம் துளப மாலைச் சென்னியா என்பர் ஆகில்
ஊனம் ஆயினகள் செய்யும் ஊன காரகர்களேனும்
போனகம் செய்த சேடம் தருவரேல் புனிதம் அன்றே.
In this verse Azhvar describes a bhaktha in the first two lines. Then, he says, even if such a bhaktha engages or gets other people to engage in demeaning occupation, yet their leftover food is consecrated isn't it? Apparently not in the Matams I have visited where strict segregation between B's and NB's is practiced and B's go first and then only NB's except if it is a rich NB.
Next, the Azhvar lifts the bar up several notches in
#42.பழுதிலா ஒழுகல் ஆறு பலசதுப் பேதிமார்கள்
இழிகுலத்தவர்கள் ஏலும் எம் அடியார்கள் ஆகில்
தொழுமினீர் கொடுமின் கொள்மின் என்று நின்னொடும் ஒக்க
வழிபட அருளினாய் போல் மதிள் திருவரங்கத்தானே.
This verse is addressed to high born Brahmins who can trace their lineage to Brahmma himself. Azhavr says to them, if you find a narayana bhaktha -- worship him (தொழுமின்), give your daughter in marriage (கொடுமின்), and take their daughters in marriage (கொள்மின்) -- even if that person is from the lowliest of low kulam. Praise him as equal to lord ranganatha.

To this I had replied in #22 in the same thread as follows:

“This is in continuation of my earlier posting:

Now taking point no.2 above. Alwaar is not discussing here any issue of social justice. I have mentioned this already. He is talking about the surrender or prapatti or Saranagati. He stresses the point that once you surrender yourself to God, you should do only those things which will please Him. There is nothing else which pleases him more than doing service to his adiyars. Being preoccupied with casteism you have interpreted or have chosen to understand only the caste part of Alwars pasuram. Yes. Alwaar has said all that you have quoted. Periya vaachanpillai has correctly interpreted it. The “ தொழுமின் , கொள்மின் , கொடுமின் ” part of the pasuram has also been correctly interpreted by him when he said “salute them, take knowledge from them if they offer and give knowledge to them if they asked for” as the meaning of these words of Alwar. He has also put this in its proper context by this following passage which you have conveniently left out in your pre occupation with casteism.Periyavachchaan pillai said”…..ஜாதி நிபாந்தனமான சம்பந்தம் போலே யாதல் , குண நிபாந்தனமான சம்பந்தம் போலேயாதல் , நீர் மேல் எழுத்தான சம்பந்தமன்றிரே இவர்களோடு பண்ணும் சம்பந்தம், இது யாவதாத்மபாவியான சம்பந்தமிரே ” The meaning of this is –“caste based marital relations, character based marital relations etc are co terminus with this life(janmam). So they are like the letters written on flowing water. They are not permanent. The relationship which is struck by exchanging true knowledge (here it is knowledge pertaining to the true nature of self, God and the relation between the two) will continue in the paramapatham also after leaving this world”. So, dear Mr. Nara your veiled accusation that even periyavachan pillai has misinterpreted Alwar’s pasuram or that he has glossed over caste differences is not correct. This is the reason why I mentioned in my earlier posting that poetry requires a different state of mind to understand and appreciate. Any independent observer who judges this pasuram will only happily agree with Periyavachan pillai’s apt interpretation. Today’s learned srivaishnavites do not have any dispute with Alwar. They understand his words fully and agree with him about the greatness of bhagavathoththamas. I would humbly suggest that you join a good kalakshepa ghoshti to understand srivaishnavam from a proper perspective. Thank you.”.

In spite of this clear proof you were adament in maintaining that you were correct and finally I had to write as follows:

“I believe that their interpretation is the correct one. No compromise on that. May be you too would have accepted that the Acharyas are great people infallible etc if they had said " மங்கை எனும் சொல்லை இடையே ஆழ்வார் சேர்த்திட அறியாதவரல்ல. இத்துணை தமிழறிவு நிரம்பப்பெற்ற அவர் கூடுதலாக ஒரு நேரசையும் நிரையசையும் சேர்த்து பாசுரத்தில் தளையும் அடியும் தொடையும் சரியே அமையுமாறு பொருந்த விட்டிருந்தால் நாம் ஐயத்துக்கிடமின்றி அவரது திருவுள்ளத்தை அறிந்திருப்போம் என்றாலும் அப்படி சாதிக்காது விட்டது பற்றிகிலேசப்படாமல் அவர் இப்படிக்கூறிப்போந்ததிலேயே எல்லாம் அடங்கிற்று என்று கொள்ளலாம்". Unfortunately that was not to be.”

So , Nara, my charge that you misinterpret/twist Divyaprabhantham literature to suit your pet obsessions stands proved again from the above second instance. As you tell lies and build castle of lies as proved above, your telling me that I am telling lies make me laugh.

If you have very revolutionary ideas about casteism tell them straight in your words without looking for support from ancient literature by misinterpretation. That will prove your honesty and you will be challenged for your own ideas and not for the misdemeanour of twisting/misinterpreting.

I will write more about this.

Cheers.

 

[Nara]

... So, Nara, you stand exposed.

Folks, this must be tiring to many of you, I regret that. Please bear with me just this once, and then I will let it go, you can decide for yourself.

Swami Periyavachchan Pillai (SPVP) specifically says that high born brahmins must fall at the feet of other varna bhagavathas, they must eat the left overs of what they have eaten. I quoted SPVP verbatim, I did not offer any interpretation, and Raju says I am twisting.

By now it is clear that Raju is not interested in answering a very specific question. As though to avoid answering Raju has kicked up a lot of dust, quoting what is not relevant to the specific question I asked.

My position on Azhvars and Acharyas is very clear from the beginning. I never claimed the early acharyas were firebrand progressives, they were not, especially the Vadakalai ones. They did support the varna system in Thiruppallandu or Kodumin kolmin. I never said SPVP rejected varna or SPVP urged marriage between varnas, that is a canard.

However, I do believe Azhvars rejected the varna system, Periyazhvar did urge brahmins to give up their caste superiority, Thondaradipposi did urge marriage when he said kodumin/kolmin, that is my view, not that of SPVP, I never claimed it was. Raju is free to characterize my view as twisting or whatever he wants, that is again his opinion only.

From the very beginning I have been saying that the early acharyas watered down Azhvar's revolutionary message. Today, even the watered down reforms early acharyas wrote passionately, like fall at their feet and eat their leftover, have been rejected out of hand by SVs from top to bottom -- this is not my interpretation, and Raju cannot call this twisting, if he did that would be dishonest.

SVs today pay great lip service to Azhvars and Acharyas, but they are rank hypocrites, they have rejected even the weak interpretations of the early acharyas like SPVP, let alone the true meaning of Azhvar's words.

I don't expect reasonable response from Raju, so it is time for me to stop taxing neutral observers.

Thanks ...

 

[tbs]

hi nara sir,
i came to know that there are 2 systems wanted to remove the caste/class system in hinduism......1 srivaishnavism or sri ramanuja

system.....2 sikhism ....founded by guru nanak dev ji......in reality ....both system failed and continued as same as rigid hindu

system.......sometimes they are more rigid than normal hindu caste/class system.....


regards
tbs

 

[nachi naga]

tbs you are right.never knew sikhs would be so rigid but again so much of divisions there too.guru nanak dev ji was truly superior guru of his time,imho.

 

[prasad1]

I meat a Goan Christian, he used to date a Kerala Catholic Christian. The father of the boy would not accept the marriage as they were Brahmin Christian, and the girls were Nair family.:faint:

We move a lot with Gujrati community. Did you know that there are various divides in Patel community.

 

[Nara]

i came to know that there are 2 systems wanted to remove the caste/class system in hinduism......1 srivaishnavism or sri ramanuja system.....

tbs sir, SV is not Bhagavat Ramanuja's system, and Ramanuja says so himself. Going backwards through an unbroken chain of Acharyas we will end with Sriman Nathamunigal of Kattumannarkudi near Chithambaram. After Nathamuni, the guru parampara jumps to Swami Nammazhvar.

What the nature of SV was during the time of Azhvars and during the time of later Acharyas starting with Nathamunigal is hard to decipher precisely. If you read Azhvar's own words we see a very expansive vision, one that rejects birth-based superiority/inferiority, the kind enshrined in smrithees. By the time commentaries for Azhvar pasurams were getting written, the Vadama converts were firmly in control and they tried their best to fit Azhvar's words into the dharma sashtra rules. This is why we see a significant watering down of Azhvar's words. Azhvar's broad kodumin/kolmin gets restricted to not include inter-marriage or even have guru/sishya relationship.

If you look at some of the words of Azhvars you would be amazed at the extent of social reformation they envisaged, albeit within the community of Bhagavathas. Let me give a sampling. In all of the following Azhvars express a deep desire to be servants of other Bhagavathas regardless of varna.

அளியன் என்று அருளி உன் அடியார்க்கு ஆட்படுத்தாய் -- Thondaradippodi

இழிகுலத்தவர்களேலும் எம்மடியார்கள் ஆகில், தொழுமினீர், கொடுமின், கொள்மின் -- Thondaradippodi

தொண்டர் சேவடிச் செழுஞ்சேறு என் சென்னிக்கு அணிவனே -- Kulasekaran

சாதிகள் நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்து [...] சண்டாள சண்டாளர்கள் ஆகிலும் [..] அடியார் தம் அடியார் எம் அடிகளே -- Nammazhvar

அடியார் அடியார் அடியார் என் கோக்கள் -- Nammazhvar

A neutral observer can see the expansive vision of Azhvars. It got restricted by the time of Swami Periyavacchaan pillai, but even then some of the Azhvar's fervor was left, he did say fall at the feet of these bhagavathas of "Shudra" origin, partake their leftover food.

By the time Swami Sri Desikan (SSD) came around -- he is probably one of the best intellect human race ever produced, but alas he clamped down varna theory of Brahminism upon SV -- only a whimper was left, SSD went to the extent of comparing devotees of "Shudra" origin to கோவில் மாடு, one that can be respected, but மாடு nevertheless.

From then on it was open season for Brahmin SVs to caste aside NB SVs as "Shudras", rejecting the Azhvar's vision in toto. Today, even the Thenkalai SVs, who are a little bit better than the Vadakalais, refuse to admit NB SVs anywhere near their congregation. They recite NB azhvar's pasurams with great fanfare, but NB SVs are not allowed to join in. Such is the magnitude of hypocrisy of present day SVs, starting from the top Jeeyars and Andavans all the way down to மடப்பள்ள்ளி கைங்கர்யப்பராள்.

Here, I have to say, at least there is some revered literature that rejects the casteism of Dharma Sashthras within the SV canon. The smarthas on the other hand tout the monicker "smartha", what a shame!

Cheers!

 

[tbs]

I meat a Goan Christian, he used to date a Kerala Catholic Christian. The father of the boy would not accept the marriage as they were Brahmin Christian, and the girls were Nair family.:faint:

We move a lot with Gujrati community. Did you know that there are various divides in Patel community.

hi prasad
patel community mainly divided into 2 groups.....so called KADVA PATEL AND LEVA PATEL....they say that they are descendents

of LAV AND KUSH OF LORD RAMA/S SONS.......they have many subgroups ..like KATYAVAADI/SURATI/MEHSANA AREAS.....

patels are generally followers of SWAMI NARAYAN SYSTEMS.....there are 3 groups of SWAMI NARAYANS.....BAPS. IS THE MAIN....

other 2 small groups....i dont remember exact names.......whole BAPS community is patels....many swamijis are patels......my 2 cents...

regards
tbs

 

[happyhindu]

Very moving post Nara sir. Although Sri Nathamuni collected the Divya Prabandhams, i believe the tradition of such hymns pre-date both, Swami Nammalvar as well as Sriman Nathamuni. Just that perhaps the hymns went unrecorded.

I was asking someone about the tradition of Yatikavas (chants / prayers) which are spelled by the kapuralas of Srilanka. There has been no attempt to date them (as yet). But was told off-hand that it is "a belief" the tradition of specialized compositions have existed before the advent of Buddhism. Not surprisingly there the kapuralas seem to have a close but unexplored link with Atharva texts. Typically their method of offering a prayer involves mantras, yatikavas, shlokas, all interspersed with one another.

Am wondering why did the tradition of collecting such rapturous hymns die out in India -- did people stop composing -- or did the varna-jati system become so rigid that uppercastes stopped listening to or stopped collecting such hymns?

 

[sangom]

Shri Suraju,

It would have enhanced your image if you had first answered Nara's point of SPVP's passage and then, if necessary, include all the charges against Nara in the same post, if you so felt. But now, I find you are avoiding the SPVP passage but trying to be divert the topic. This will only give the impression that you are being too smart by half.

Please try at least now to answer the point raised by Nara.

 

[suraju06]

Shri Suraju,

It would have enhanced your image if you had first answered Nara's point of SPVP's passage and then, if necessary, include all the charges against Nara in the same post, if you so felt. But now, I find you are avoiding the SPVP passage but trying to be divert the topic. This will only give the impression that you are being too smart by half.

Please try at least now to answer the point raised by Nara.

Sangom,

This is between Nara and me. <removed>

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Folks, this must be tiring to many of you, I regret that. Please bear with me just this once, and then I will let it go, you can decide for yourself.

Swami Periyavachchan Pillai (SPVP) specifically says that high born brahmins must fall at the feet of other varna bhagavathas, they must eat the left overs of what they have eaten. I quoted SPVP verbatim, I did not offer any interpretation, and Raju says I am twisting.

By now it is clear that Raju is not interested in answering a very specific question. As though to avoid answering Raju has kicked up a lot of dust, quoting what is not relevant to the specific question I asked.

My position on Azhvars and Acharyas is very clear from the beginning. I never claimed the early acharyas were firebrand progressives, they were not, especially the Vadakalai ones. They did support the varna system in Thiruppallandu or Kodumin kolmin. I never said SPVP rejected varna or SPVP urged marriage between varnas, that is a canard.

However, I do believe Azhvars rejected the varna system, Periyazhvar did urge brahmins to give up their caste superiority, Thondaradipposi did urge marriage when he said kodumin/kolmin, that is my view, not that of SPVP, I never claimed it was. Raju is free to characterize my view as twisting or whatever he wants, that is again his opinion only.

From the very beginning I have been saying that the early acharyas watered down Azhvar's revolutionary message. Today, even the watered down reforms early acharyas wrote passionately, like fall at their feet and eat their leftover, have been rejected out of hand by SVs from top to bottom -- this is not my interpretation, and Raju cannot call this twisting, if he did that would be dishonest.

SVs today pay great lip service to Azhvars and Acharyas, but they are rank hypocrites, they have rejected even the weak interpretations of the early acharyas like SPVP, let alone the true meaning of Azhvar's words.

I don't expect reasonable response from Raju, so it is time for me to stop taxing neutral observers.

Thanks ...

Nara,

That was a nice escape door you had kept handy. It is you who wanted to discuss this topic again by your post #133 in this thread when Praveen closed the thread "What is their intention" and when I confronted you with your misinterpretations of Alwar and Acharyas, you just try to escape from the engagement by saying all this. And you have called the "Folks" to come to your help. And what more, promptly there are friendly 'folks' promptly obliging, some by their "likes" and some by their posts. You had mentioned three lies in your post in the closed thread and the first lie is still an enigma understood only by you. You have not clarified as to what is that lie despite my asking you. I am fed up with this cat and mouse game you play here. Please be specific and answer the points in my post. Only because you have quoted repeatedly from the commentry written by Periyavachan Pillai, I had taken that you accept his commentry as a reference source/stuff. If you had said in the beginning that you have no respect for PVP's or any of the commentators' work and that you interpret Alwars according to your free will, I would have kept a safe distance from you and would not have engaged you in a discussion at all because that would have made me put you in the league of the usual atheist crowd that belongs to DK, who keep posting hatred stuff in their various websites. If you are still interested as mentioned in your post #133 in this thread I will complete my argument by posting the rest of the three posts that I have prepared. If you are not interested then good bye. God bless you.

 

[sarang]

Sri Ramanuja believed in varnashrama dharma. He also believed that all vaishnavas are worth worshipping. There is no contradiction in this.

hi nara sir,
i came to know that there are 2 systems wanted to remove the caste/class system in hinduism......1 srivaishnavism or sri ramanuja

system.....2 sikhism ....founded by guru nanak dev ji......in reality ....both system failed and continued as same as rigid hindu

system.......sometimes they are more rigid than normal hindu caste/class system.....


regards
tbs

 

[suraju06]

This is from #190 in this thread:

If you look at some of the words of Azhvars you would be amazed at the extent of social reformation they envisaged, albeit within the community of Bhagavathas. Let me give a sampling. In all of the following Azhvars express a deep desire to be servants of other Bhagavathas regardless of varna.
அளியன் என்று அருளி உன் அடியார்க்கு ஆட்படுத்தாய் -- Thondaradippodi
இழிகுலத்தவர்களேலும் எம்மடியார்கள் ஆகில், தொழுமினீர், கொடுமின், கொள்மின் -- Thondaradippodi
தொண்டர் சேவடிச் செழுஞ்சேறு என் சென்னிக்கு அணிவனே -- Kulasekaran
சாதிகள் நாலிலும் கீழ் இழிந்து [...] சண்டாள சண்டாளர்கள் ஆகிலும் [..] அடியார் தம் அடியார் எம் அடிகளே -- Nammazhvar
அடியார் அடியார் அடியார் என் கோக்கள் -- Nammazhvar
A neutral observer can see the expansive vision of Azhvars. It got restricted by the time of Swami Periyavacchaan pillai, but even then some of the Azhvar's fervor was left, he did say fall at the feet of these bhagavathas of "Shudra" origin, partake their leftover food.

Nara,

As you have expressed a desire to leave this discussion, and even though you have not come out with a reply to my question in post # 184 above asking you what you mean by "avarkal", I am giving you my brief reply to the point raised by you.
1) You have said that Alwar has said all this because he had an expansive vision and this expansive vision is reflected in the reiteration every now and then by telling brahmins to fall at the feet of bhagavathoththamas (Bs), eat the left over of Bs, take the sri paatha theerththam of these Bs etc., Brahmin SVs have no issue doing all this when they find an Adiyar/Bhagavathoththama as described by Alwar/Acharyas.

2) You have singled out bhagavathas of 'Shudra' origin for such treatment which was not what Alwar said (again a misinterpretation by your fertile mind). May be you think that shudras are izhikulam. Brahmin SVs do not make any distinction and are ready to extend all these special treatment to any bhagavathoththama irrespective of his caste and this would include the 'week-end brahmins' and dalits also. Your special love for Shudras to the exclusion of dalits is well known to members who are independent observers here.

3) My charge that you are displaying your immense capacity to bring in caste into every discourse here and use it to whip brahmins repeatedly and relentlessly stands. By your virulently casteist posts you have rubbished Alwars' and Acharyas' philosophic and bhakti out pourings and have caused intense pain to faithfulls (who do not bother about castes) who visit this forum. You can never repair the damage you have done.You can never,never, perhaps, answer that charge.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

<removed>
Absolutely no need for provocation.

 

[sarang]

Nayanmars, azhwars and acharyas never preached or practiced brtahmin bashing, brahmin hating or extermination of brahmins.

Like trigunas, the trivargas among brahmins are - very strict, liberal to varying extent and irrelevantly liberal. Brahmin bashers, of course, are outside this classification. They must apply their logic to all other religious groups, if they want to discuss inequality. They know which side of the bread is buttered.

 

[happyhindu]

Raju,

This was unnecessary.

My post was to Nara Sir, not to you -- regarding social outcome of the varna-jati rigidification from the SV point of view; and how it could have affected the recording / collection of Hymns.

Am curios wrt Srilankan history, because am told they also have some native beliefs, like the families of Kush (Rama's son), Angad (Bali's son) and Vibhishana's families inter-marrying and merging post-ramayana; the idea that Valli was Vishnu's daughter adopted by the "Nambis", and various such beliefs that are not found in indian versions of Puranas and Itihaasas.

Am interested in history. Am also interested in comparing the yatikas or yatikavas (chants and liturgical prayers) chanted / sung to Vishnu in Srilanka with the meanings conveyed by the Divya Prabandhams. All this had / has nothing to do with you.

<deleted portions since Praveen deleted Raju's post>

Regards.