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Is prayers alone - without jnana enough for salvation

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N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Sir/Madam,

Karma is divided into three - Sanchita, prarabdha and aagaami. Sanchita is
what is accumulated during the previous births, prarabdha is what we are
now enjoying/suffering and aagaami is what we are accumulating now.

Prarabdha is like a sustained/slow release capsule. In this birth, a part of it
is released and we suffer/enjoy the results of stored up karma. We do not
know how much balance is still left and how and when it is going to be released. Once it is released, we have to go through it. No way out.

Even in the case of Jnanis, there is prarbdha. Since they do not have
dehatma buddhi, that is non-attachment to the body which is only a upadhi,
they leave it to take its own course. Jnanis ignore this because it affects
the body only and the Soul is pure and can't be affected.

If we do karma , without expecting any reward and offering it to God, the
fruits of such karma will not get attached to you.( Iswararpanam.) We avoid
further accumulation - no aagaami.

In the case of Jnanis , there is no further accumulation on the one hand
and the balance of sanchita also is burnt by Jnana.
 
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N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Sir,
In this respect please refer to sloka 449 of Adi Sanakra's 'viveka chhoodamani'.

svamasangam udaseenaam parignayanabho yathaa
na slishyathi cha yatkinchith kadhachith bhaavi karmabhi:

I am not kartha, I am not bhoktha - with this sankalpa and as an offering
to Iswara, a jnani does karma and hence the fruits of karma do not get
attached to him.

Similar references are available in BS and BG.
 
Even in the case of Jnanis, there is prarbdha. Since they do not have
dehatma buddhi, that is non-attachment to the body which is only a upadhi,
they leave it to take its own course. Jnanis ignore this because it affects
the body only and the Soul is pure and can't be affected
.


May I add this because I find it relevant to the context:

This is the reason why you will find Vaishnavite prapannas , when they fall sick, it is said சுவாமி நோவு சாற்றிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார். Thus when a acharyan has fallen sick it is said சுவாமி நோவு சாற்றிக்கொண்டிருக்கிறார்.

Cheers.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

I understand the car will keep running until it runs out of petrol; after learning that, I stopped refilling; but keeps it running as useful as possible. You are saying I am carrying huge barrels of petrol from my past janmas; I am saying, I carry nothing. I went away with nothing; I came back with nothing. So, why didI come back? I did not come back because I had lot of petrol left in the tank; I came back because I could not overcome my desire until my death.... say, in my past life, while I was going, this good looking nurse was trying to perform CPR on me; I was enjoying watching her boobs bouncing through her thin skirt.... back I came here, since I did not overcome my desires. Now I know better.. now itself i watch all the boobs I want so that towards the end I would have seen them all! Like wise I would try to overcome all my desires! so, what happens if I kick the bucket now? that is the test, is it not?

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

Your unfulfilled desire is the PETROL.Do you really think that petrol came from the Petrol Station!!LOL
Unfulfilled desires fill up the Karmic petrol tank and a suitable chassis is designed for our next birth and we keep on Vrooming and Vrooming till there is no more petrol from life to life.

Hey Raghy..I also have done CPR and you know how..most of us actually climb across the patient on the bed and administer the CPR.
Standing on the side does not give a good Cardiac Massage.
So far as I know no one's eyes were opened till they regained a heart beat.

It is only possible for you to be seeing the Kampamana Payodhara (The Bouncing Mammary) if you were having an out of body experience and your subtle body is witnessing it.

Then there was a slight reminder from God an He says "Raghy my son..your time is still not up..I can see that you are taken by the sight of the mammary gland..Please kindly go through Adi Shankara's Bhajo Govindam

Naree sthana bhara nabhi nivesam,
Mithyaa mayaa mohaavesam,
Ethan mamsavasaadhi vikaram,
Manasi vichinthaya vaaram vaaram.

A lady’s busts divine,
Her bellies shapely,
They are but gates of deceit,
And the joy that is given out,
Is by flesh and fat alone..
Think of this,
Day in and day out

Read more:Kanchi Periva Forum - Adi Sankaracharya’s Bhaja Govindam

and my dear Raghy..so you are going to get another round of


Punarapi jananam punarapi maranam,
Punarapi janani jatare sayanam,
Iha samsaare khalu dusthare,
Krupayaa pare pahi murare.

Again and again one is born,
And again and again one dies,
And again and again one sleeps in the mother’s womb,
Help me to cross,
This limitless sea of Life,
Which is uncrossable, my Lord


I am sending you back to Earth again!!

So this is how Raghy came back to the Ocean of Samsara!!LOL
 
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N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Dear sir,

Yes, you are right. They brush aside the prarabdha as something applicable
to sarira only. It is said by Sankara that they leave it to the body and at
the end of it , jnanis attain videha mukthi.
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Dear Raghy,

Your unfulfilled desire is the PETROL.Do you really think that petrol came from the Petrol Station!!LOL
Unfulfilled desires fill up the Karmic petrol tank and a suitable chassis is designed for our next birth and we keep on Vrooming and Vrooming till there is no more petrol from life to life.

Hey Raghy..I also have done CPR and you know how..most of us actually climb across the patient on the bed and administer the CPR.
Standing on the side does not give a good Cardiac Massage.
So far as I know no one's eyes were opened till they regained a heart beat.

It is only possible for you to be seeing the Kampamana Payodhara (The Bouncing Mammary) if you were having an out of body experience and your subtle body is witnessing it.

Then there was a slight reminder from God an He says "Raghy my son..your time is still not up..I can see that you are taken by the sight of the mammary gland..Please kindly go through Adi Shankara's Bhajo Govindam



and my dear Raghy..so you are going to get another round of



I am sending you back to Earth again!!

So this is how Raghy came back to the Ocean of Samsara!!LOL

Renuka,

Why you single out Mr.Raghy alone. What about all of us ? We are all
here because of this only.

In BG, Lord Krishna says- desire is the root cause of all the birth/death
cycle. Kaama and Krodha, he says. If the desire is unfulfilled you get
anger and thats why he clubs both. Old vasanas rise its head as
kaama and hence it is the vasanas that must be totally eradicated.
Do not suppress it because it will erupt again. Kill it with viveka
and vairagya. Abhyasa is a must to achieve this state.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Renuka,

Why you single out Mr.Raghy alone. What about all of us ? We are all
here because of this only.

In BG, Lord Krishna says- desire is the root cause of all the birth/death
cycle. Kaama and Krodha, he says. If the desire is unfulfilled you get
anger and thats why he clubs both. Old vasanas rise its head as
kaama and hence it is the vasanas that must be totally eradicated.
Do not suppress it because it will erupt again. Kill it with viveka
and vairagya. Abhyasa is a must to achieve this state.

Dear sir,

Yes sir..all of us are in the same boat but you see Raghy was very specific..he knew the reason of his rebirth!!LOL(did you read what he wrote about the Kampamana stuff of the Anuvaidya :D)

So I was just giving a scenario of what could have taken place with Raghy and God.

I have no idea what brought me back to earth.

God knows what Kampamana object I saw.LOL

Note: The word Kampamana is a Sanskrit word meaning Shaking(present continuous tense).
 
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Hi Renuka and Raghy,

Reference post #105 and 108:

When I read these out to my wife (she was busy in the kitchen), this was her comment:

We have our friend Raghy here who can vividly see the final moments of his poorva janma just with the help of one or two pegs of JD. And we have Renuka dear here who pulls his legs and brings him down to this janma with a jolt, stopping and freezing every kampamana object in the process. World is such a nice lively to place to live in.

Cheers.
 
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One used to have noticed in some houses, those days elders scolding a particular
child, it is a Prarabdham to me, etc., because the child may not be up to the mark
or he/she is not able to live properly. Prarabdham is nothing but a collection of
past Karmas to be undergone during this generation. May be some one is constrained
to undergo such things. With adequate knowledge only, the concept of ignorance
can be removed, similar to a light which dispels the darkness. I would like to quote
a Thevaram in this connection, sung by Thirunavukarasar in Thevaram to get rid
of Karmas.

Allal encheyum aruvinai encheyum
Thollai valvinaith thondhanthan encheyum
Thillai Managarch chirram balavanarkku
Ellai illadhor adimai pundenukke

Thiruchirrambalam

Om Nama Shivayah

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I refer to the gem in post #105. This reminds me a scene from 'sri Raghavendra' movie. sathya Raj ( the Muslim ruler) presents Sri. Raghavendra a plate full of meat coverd with a silk cloth. Sri. Raghavendra accepts it; when he opens it they were fragrant fresh flowers. Sowbagyavathy Renuka in reply to my usual bewildering message, presented a gem indeed! Just great! my compliments for such a lovely message. thank you.

Cheers!
 
Sowbagyavathy Renuka,

Hey Raghy..I also have done CPR and you know how..most of us actually climb across the patient on the bed and administer the CPR.
Standing on the side does not give a good Cardiac Massage.
So far as I know no one's eyes were opened till they regained a heart beat.

Well, I stand at the side when do the compressions. Usually, after 12 to compressions, colour would return; after 20, pulse would return. Usually after the first 30 compressions and two blows, in the second set, there would be enough colour and pulse to administer adrenaline.... then his/her luck takes over. If I climb on the patient, I would break few ribs when compressing. But my CPR days are over for now. I am more in rehab. You shouldn't take literally take CPR only.. there are other instances too, to see down the valley.....

Your unfulfilled desire is the PETROL.Do you really think that petrol came from the Petrol Station!!LOL
Unfulfilled desires fill up the Karmic petrol tank and a suitable chassis is designed for our next birth and we keep on Vrooming and Vrooming till there is no more petrol from life to life.

Although I too didn't mean petrol literally, after watching the price of petrol, now I am wondering if I missed a golden opportunity ask the God to let my birth to be as the heir of an oil tycoon or at least as the son of an oil dealer .... would have enjoyed free supply of oil!

Unfulfilled desire is not sanchita or prarabdha karmas. Desire is not a karma; only an action is a karma. My desire for all the fancy sanskrit words you put down are not karma at all! So, they could not have converted into Sanchita/prarabdha karmas!

I should say, Nice Try!

Cheers!
 
Renuka,

Why you single out Mr.Raghy alone. What about all of us ? We are all
here because of this only.

In BG, Lord Krishna says- desire is the root cause of all the birth/death
cycle. Kaama and Krodha, he says. If the desire is unfulfilled you get
anger and thats why he clubs both. Old vasanas rise its head as
kaama and hence it is the vasanas that must be totally eradicated.
Do not suppress it because it will erupt again. Kill it with viveka
and vairagya. Abhyasa is a must to achieve this state.

Sri. Ranganathan, Greetings.

Everyone came back to earth for the same reason? That reason should be quite powerful indeed! ( Just joking!)

Yes, sir. we have to overcome desires. But how is the question. there are various ways to do it. As long as we are not attached, we can very well indulge in it and enjoy that as much as possible and pass to the other side. When most others think denial, I think indulge!

Cheers!
 
Shri Raghavendra Swami, in fact, was the Head of the Sri Mutt in Kumbakonam
while he took Sanyas sometime between 1624 and 1636, though HE was born
in Bhavanagiri and later he attained Samadhi at Mantralayam.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 

renuka

Well-known member
Unfulfilled desire is not sanchita or prarabdha karmas. Desire is not a karma; only an action is a karma. My desire for all the fancy sanskrit words you put down are not karma at all! So, they could not have converted into Sanchita/prarabdha karmas!


Cheers!

Dear Raghy,

You know the difference between a neurotic and a psychotic?

Neurotic....builds castles in the air.

Psychotic...lives in it.


So same thing for desire...we are neurotics and have desires that help construct the castle for our next life and the we live psychotic lives staying in our constructed castle.
Every action preformed in that castle is Karma.

BTW desire is feeling that elicits a thought wave.
So its active in our mind.
Anything that is active is the precursor of Karma.

So a desireless mind=no karma
 
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N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Sowbagyavathy Renuka,



I was going to write this reply to Sri. Ranganathan. But I am writing this to you.

I can not accept 'Eureka movement' of self realisation. One instant I am not self-realised , the next instant I am self-realised and stays self-realised does not sound right to me. As I progress in my life, as I gather more and more wisdom, the instances and frequencies I fall prey to my senses keeps reducing. Self realisation is a very slow, gradual process. For some atmans it may take few janmas. If self realisation is an instantaneous occurence, why should the atma go through many janmas before mukhti?

Cheers!

Dear sri Raghy,

You could have very well addressed it to me.

Self-realisation is experiencing. When a sadhak experiences this - no one knows
and he also does not know. If you ask him, he will not be able to tell you when
and how. Such enlightened souls are silent and they do not give you any
lecture. Only half-baked people like me give lecture on Advaita vedanta,
based on some studies. All theoretical.

Yes, effort is needed and we call it sadhana. After the basics like chittasuddhi
and chitta ikakgram, we study nitya-anitya vastu vivekam, develop vairagya
and cultivate shraddha. We have deep yearning to attain moksha (mumu-
kshutvam ).

Then we seek a Guru who is a stotriya and brahmanishta. You serve him
and learn many things adhyatmic from him. He does upadesa of mahavakya
which is followed by sravana, manana and nidhityasam by the sadhak. All these
are efforts on our part.

How many hours, how many days or how many years or even how many
janmas you spend in nishityasana, you don't know. It is the intensity and
serious longing for liberation that counts.

Yes, efforts are needed for liberation, but the very same effort will become a
barrier too. You drop it at a certain point of time. என் செயலால் ஆவது
ஒன்றுமில்லை, எல்லாம் உன் செயலே என்று உணர்ந்தவுடன் , you drop
the effort. Along with it , you drop yourself. You are not there. At that
point of time, some flash like an electric current enters into your heart.
You become a jivanmuktha.

Adi Sankara then describes a jivanmuktha. He still retains some small doses
of vasanas. Again thru' abhyasa and constant meditation, he continues his
journey. After the prarabdha finishes its work with the sarira, the jnani
leaves this body , like serpent removing its skin, and attains videha mukthi.

If you notice from the book ' viveka choodamani ', you will find that sri
Acharyal has jumped from sadhana to jivanmukthi lakshana, leaving a gap
inbetween. He does not describe how the enlightenment dawns on the
mumukshu. This is known by the saadhak and Iswara only or by Iswara
only.

In my post I have not said that effort is not needed. It is needed and when
it is dropped, the 'I' also is dropped. It is beautifully said in tamil - நான்
போனால் போவேன் ' ( aham )

If I have not explained all this in detail, I am sorry.
 
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Dear Sri. Ranganathan, Greetings.

Kindly don't mistake me; I addressed the same point with Sowbagyavathy Renuka too. At that time sinceI remembered I was planning to address the same 'instantaneous self-realisation' to one your messages too, I just mentioned that.

I quite agree with you, atman doesn't identify when it realises. But self realisation is a long road as you rightly said. I am not a learned person. In fact, I did not read any spiritual book at all. Once in one of my messages I said, "no Guru would even touch me with a ten feet pole!". that still applies. My theory, yes, my pesonal theory is, by indulging in a desire, one can overcome the desire. I know, nobody would even consider such a theory. But I do. Who knows? I may even succeed too!

In one of the messages you mentioned about 'Jeevatman' and 'Paramatman'. In my opinion, Jeevatma and Paramatma do not exist as 'asariri'; they exist inthis body, so, this body should be considered as the third entity too. Achryal said "not Two'. Most people say " not two; but one"; but I think, "not two but three" including this body. This body goes through hunger and thirst, not the Atman.. this body goes through harmonal changes, not te atman.. this body goes through the sense gratifications, not the atman. Denying any of the sense gratifications would only encourage the body to rebel against the atman. I don't see any harmony denying tactics. Instead, let the body indulge without any attachment. When we come to think of it, only the atman wants to join the paramatma; not this body! So, why worry the body?

I know my arguments are quite weird. But, that is a point of view too!

Cheers!
 
Dear Raghy,

You know the difference between a neurotic and a psychotic?

Neurotic....builds castles in the air.

Psychotic...lives in it.


So same thing for desire...we are neurotics and have desires that help construct the castle for our next life and the we live psychotic lives staying in our constructed castle.
Every action preformed in that castle is Karma.

BTW desire is feeling that elicits a thought wave.
So its active in our mind.
Anything that is active is the precursor of Karma.

So a desireless mind=no karma

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

Neurotic is centred on senses and transformation of senses. All our sense gratifications are neurotic. sure, desires are for sense gratifications. So, in a way, in a roundabout way, I buy the theory neurotic is building up based on senses.

Psychotic are feelings based on thinking process; amount of thought that gets processed in one's mind. I shall get to psychotic later. When I go in detail about neurotic, psychotic would join some where in the middle though.

I can't agree we carried desire from the past janma. We just came along since we had unfulfilled desire; but we don't know what they were. Even if I complete one full bottle of JD, still I may not be able to work that out! :happy: But desires are driving our life. If we don't have desire, we will come to a grinding halt.

I desired I wanted to get a decent education.. I got some education.... I desired to get a readily employable qualification; I got a trade qualification...... I desired to marry the girl who would love me...... I did; I desired..... that list goes on. point is, if the desire is strong enough, we do get them accomplished.

But some of the desires are not strong enough... we imagine accomplishing such desires... those desires die after a brief life in our imagination and in our dreams. Living those desires in our imagination and or dreams is psychotic. If we actually live the desire, then it is not psychotic.

Yes, any desire produces an energy. A strong desire produces a very strong energy. We can actually feel the energy from others too, if that energy is directed towards us. Such energies are precursor of karma, agreed. But only when the desire gets acted upon, the karma gets completed. For example, I walk in a buffet lunch and notice this mouth watering spinach keish and desires to eat it; that desire is not karma... only when I eat some of the keish to satisfy my sense gratification, a karma is completed. I could overcome my desire and walk without taking the keish; then the karma is not completed.

Cheers!
 

N.R.Ranganathan

Active member
Dear sri Raghy,
Thanks for the response.

Jivatma is vyasti and Paramatma is samasti. Sarira is only a upadi. When the
upadi falls, both are one.

Indriyas are after the outside objects. They have a keen desire to enjoy
them and this leads to karma with its attendant fruits, good or bad.

Our scriptures say that cast aside the vishayas , they are visham. Seek
permanent happiness or bliss.

Then why all this creation ? This is a rational question, I do agree. We
( at least I ) do not have any answer. Why should God play with us,
tempt us with outside objects and then involve us in karmas, birth and
death,, heaven and hell ? Frankly no answer. we can only say it is God's
அலகிலா விளயாட்டு ! , as one saint said. If it is a play, there is no
reason behind it.
 

renuka

Well-known member
I will be taking a short break from forum cos I have to attend a medical conference.
will be active again next week.
 
Dear Raghy,

You have said:

Most people say " not two; but one"; but I think, "not two but three" including this body. This body goes through hunger and thirst, not the Atman.. this body goes through harmonal changes, not te atman.. this body goes through the sense gratifications, not the atman. Denying any of the sense gratifications would only encourage the body to rebel against the atman. I don't see any harmony denying tactics. Instead, let the body indulge without any attachment. When we come to think of it, only the atman wants to join the paramatma; not this body! So, why worry the body?

I know my arguments are quite weird. But, that is a point of view too!

Your view is neither weird nor some thing new/unique. The body spirit integration is the basis on which Christian religious philosophy rests. They do not agree with the Atman being distinct from the Body. You may please read the books on their religious philosophy(there are many available on the web). As you read, questions will come to your mind and you find them getting you nowhere in that philosophical school of thought. You will get back to the Hindu school of thought.

Cheers.
 
If the prayer is desirelessness or no demand (i.e. begging for something from the God),
then it has its own sanctity. Prayer should be spontaneous and it should emerge from
the heart. Prayer does not mean just memorizing a sloka or stotra or a mantra and
repeating them without any devotion or attachment to the God. Above all, it should
not be for the fulfillment of a desire, as stated above. We have a Jasmine Flower Garland.
Whether, we hold it either in the right hand or in the left hand, the fragrance is not going
to be hidden. Like that, God is always with us. A true prayer is one that one does it
with full devotion of thoughtless state of mind maintaining silence and dedicating himself/
herself entirely towards HIM.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
Dear Raghy,

You have said:



Your view is neither weird nor some thing new/unique. The body spirit integration is the basis on which Christian religious philosophy rests. They do not agree with the Atman being distinct from the Body. You may please read the books on their religious philosophy(there are many available on the web). As you read, questions will come to your mind and you find them getting you nowhere in that philosophical school of thought. You will get back to the Hindu school of thought.

Cheers.

Dear sri. Raju, Greetings.

I did not say atman and the body are the same.

Sri. Raju, Sowbagyavathy Renuka and Sri. Ranganathan,

Thank you very much for tolerating my rantings. When I know I am not a learned person, I should at least learn keep my mouth shut and listen to other learned people. I did not do that. But you guys are extremely polite with me.

I learnt my lesson for not controlling my desires. I don't have to learn any scriptures; don't have to learn any rituals or poojas. I do't even have to believe in God.

But I should learn to control my desires. I learned my lesson. Now I understand what happens if I don't control my desires. I had been too egoistic and let the handle go! Like Sowbagyavathy Renuka described, I went Vrooomm... Vroooommmm .... and crashed.

Guys, thanks for your politness and kindness. I am not qualified to discuss in this thread anymore. I better go and learn some self control first! I am not qualified to even stay close to people discussing self realisation! I got a very very longgggg way to go!

Cheers!
 
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Greetings.

This is the Post Script for my message in post #124, I supppose!

There are countless messages I spoke about JD, about my ..... ahm....unconventional methods of appriciating beauty etc. I also spoke countless times about my desire to indulge in desires so as to overcome them. Sometimes such actions do not work. I don't want antone to follow my examples. That's why, at the first instance I crashed chasing my desires, I felt it is important to caution everyone.

One even may consider my message as "சாத்தான் வேதம் ஓதுகிறது!" and reject it!

I may be the devil. But even I may have a message! I reflected and realised my lack of self control lead to the crash.

So, my message is simple. Chasing desires are fine as long as one can practice self control. If one is not sure about his/her self control capacities, then handle the desires with care!

Cheers!
 
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