Is prayers alone - without jnana enough for salvation

[renuka]

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For deeper discussions, one has to become proficient in religious literature.

Dear Sarangji,

Fair enough but nowadays we can learn from anybody.
I have seen many cases of people so learned that they know all 4 vedas but finally say there in NO GOD.

Technically knowledge can be got from anyone.
A Guru can appear in any form for a specific purpose.

I once witnessed this in Puttaparthi.That time the Kulwant Hall was not yet fully constructed.
I saw a sparrow bird building its nest.She would pick up a twig from the ground and fly to the Prashanti Mandir roof where Baba's room is and fly to her tree and make her nest.
Then she would again pick up some twigs go to the mandir again and then fly to the tree to make her nest.

The bird could have just flown directly to her tree and need not go to the Mandir which was way out of her direction from her tree.

It looked to me as if the little bird wanted Blessings for each twig she was picking up to make her nest.

So that day my Guru was the Little Bird..she was devotion is action.

So I always keep all options open cos I have no idea in which form a Guru might appear.

So far I have benefited lots from Forum and many here have been Gurus too when they share their thought in each post.
You too have been a Guru in some of your posts.

 

[murari1970]

Respected madam,

you are reflecting the tipical mindset of others by depicting Sri Ramakrishna and Vivekananda as Saptha Rishi and saying they should not be compared. Once you said that you can only worship and will not try to do what they have done, since they are god incarnate!!

But if you go thro their life and particularly the life of Vivekananda, how human he was and what a bundle of controversy he was, when he was touring in US and Europe. By saying the bundle of controversy, i am not telling offensive, but in a positive way. He was testing his own ideas and philosophy with western philosophy and science so many times and has to make so many amends to this thought process. But finally he was so convinced that Vedanta has answer for all the questions.

He himself told that divine is within every one and it is the duty of every one to invoke it through the process Hinduisim has given. It is a very scientific way of thinking. For this he sugggests Raya Yoga, particularly. If by going through a proccess, a person has some effects, why not other persons also? I very strongly believe anybody can become Ramkrishna or Vivekananda provide they go thro the required process. Yoga is a science and don't confuse it with religious dogmas. It is universal and it is the greatest contribution Hinduism has given to this world, not the epics, puranas or vedas.

Every human has the immense possibility within him. Only he has to go undergo the process and believe me, he will attain the realisation. But that is a hard parth. That is why I said bhakthi marga makes the path easier to achieve this.

Regarding the five koshhas and all other jargons, I have also read about it. But for me spirituality is simple and universal. Only when it is confused with religion, the problem starts.

I am not a medical person to elaborate on these chemical effects, but when you do meditation all these psychic and chemical effects happen in the physical body which gives you the feel good effect.

 

[renuka]

But if you go thro their life and particularly the life of Vivekananda, how human he was and what a bundle of controversy he was, when he was touring in US and Europe. By saying the bundle of controversy, i am not telling offensive, but in a positive way. He was testing his own ideas and philosophy with western philosophy and science so many times and has to make so many amends to this thought process. But finally he was so convinced that Vedanta has answer for all the questions.

He himself told that divine is within every one and it is the duty of every one to invoke it through the process Hinduisim has given. It is a very scientific way of thinking. For this he sugggests Raya Yoga, particularly. If by going through a proccess, a person has some effects, why not other persons also? I very strongly believe anybody can become Ramkrishna or Vivekananda provide they go thro the required process. Yoga is a science and don't confuse it with religious dogmas. It is universal and it is the greatest contribution Hinduism has given to this world, not the epics, puranas or vedas.

Every human has the immense possibility within him. Only he has to go undergo the process and believe me, he will attain the realisation. But that is a hard parth. That is why I said bhakthi marga makes the path easier to achieve this.

Dear sir,

You are absolutely right.All forms of Divinity come to the world in human form to pave the path for us.
Their very existence is a text book for us.
Lord Rama and Lord Buddha too have lead such lives to enlighten us.

I somehow can't DIVORCE Science and Sanathana Dharma..everything in this world comes under the umbrella of Brahman.

Raja Yoga is one of the paths in Self Realization just like Karma Yoga,Bhakti Yoga and Jnana Yoga.
The choice is ours and every path has the same destination.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I can't help it. I really like to pose this question. What about the persons who has no bhakti, no jnana to write home about, no knowledge in vedas, upanishad, vedanga etc.... where would they stand? Would any of them get self-realisation? I am talking about real down-to earth persons. Just don't care what they eat, don't care what others think about them, just single track minded persons... not involved in any illegal or wrong activities though..all simple, down to earth, honest activity.. say for example, a meat trimmer in an abattoir. Kindly let me know, please, what are his chances?

Cheers!

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

I can't help it. I really like to pose this question. What about the persons who has no bhakti, no jnana to write home about, no knowledge in vedas, upanishad, vedanga etc.... where would they stand? Would any of them get self-realisation? I am talking about real down-to earth persons. Just don't care what they eat, don't care what others think about them, just single track minded persons... not involved in any illegal or wrong activities though..all simple, down to earth, honest activity.. say for example, a meat trimmer in an abattoir. Kindly let me know, please, what are his chances?

The answer to your question was given by Swami Alavandar long back in a verse in his Stotra Ratnam:

na dharma nishtOsmi na ca AtmavEdi na bhaktimAn twachcharanAravindE
akinchanO ananyagatissaranya twat pAda mUlam saranam prapatyE.

Meaning:
I am not a person who live strictly according to the dharma. Nor am I a person who knows myself well (knowing one's atma swarupa is considered as knowing oneself correctly and fully because that automatically gives you the knowledge about the brahman and the relation between the atman and the brahman. A person who has the knowledge of atman is variously called as Atma vedi, swaparoopa jnani etc.This can be elaborated further but not done here for time and space). I am not a bhaktimaan(one who is deep in bhakti) either. I know doing only one thing and I have done that. I have completely surrendered myself at your feet knowing fully well that I am the lowest of the lowly(with no credits to flaunt about my dharma nishtai or atma vedam) and I have no other source to rely on for my salvation other than you and I am confident that you will save me.

Essence of the meaning:A saranagati done to God with the proper frame of mind saves each soul, however harsh his situation may be in this world - this includes a meat trimmer in an abattoir.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Raju, Greetings.

Thanks for you kind explanation. This is absolutely fantastic. I can just say one word 'Wow'! My question was sincere. Your answer is equally sincere. Thank you very much.

Just lovely!

Cheers!

 

[prasad1]

Dear Raghy,



The answer to your question was given by Swami Alavandar long back in a verse in his Stotra Ratnam:

na dharma nishtOsmi na ca AtmavEdi na bhaktimAn twachcharanAravindE
akinchanO ananyagatissaranya twat pAda mUlam saranam prapatyE.

Meaning:
I am not a person who live strictly according to the dharma. Nor am I a person who knows myself well (knowing one's atma swarupa is considered as knowing oneself correctly and fully because that automatically gives you the knowledge about the brahman and the relation between the atman and the brahman. A person who has the knowledge of atman is variously called as Atma vedi, swaparoopa jnani etc.This can be elaborated further but not done here for time and space). I am not a bhaktimaan(one who is deep in bhakti) either. I know doing only one thing and I have done that. I have completely surrendered myself at your feet knowing fully well that I am the lowest of the lowly(with no credits to flaunt about my dharma nishtai or atma vedam) and I have no other source to rely on for my salvation other than you and I am confident that you will save me.

Essence of the meaning:A saranagati done to God with the proper frame of mind saves each soul, however harsh his situation may be in this world - this includes a meat trimmer in an abattoir.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.

Very good quote.
Mr. Raju ji,
I think you still have to do nishkama service, otherwise you are accumulating more vasana's. It also gives you impetus to serve the humanity.
I am not in the same league as you or Renukaji, but I think if you are merely existing at animal level, then you are taking a step backwards in your evolution towards jeevenmukta. So there has to be desire and a goal for your journey.

 

[Raghy]

Dear Sri. Raju,

I grew up in vadakalai Iyengar house hold. Every now and again one would talk about 'saranagathi' as a lip service. I never felt it there. My life was not exactly a flower bed. There were lot of instances I got disillusioned. Bhakti, Saranagathi etc were just mere words for me. Personally, if I can't do anything sincerely, I won't do it. So far I have been maintaining that. Often times I fail; but my efforts would be sincere to my knowledge. Slowly 'God' became a concept for me. When 'God' is a concept, where am I going to find Bhakti and Saranagathi? But I lead my life with as much sincerity as I can muster. Truth, Honesty and Sharing is my way of life. I am making myself as easily approachable as possible.

I thank you very much for your message in post #55. I really appreciate your sincere reply. Fro your reply, I got a lot of things cleared out for me. It is very kind of you.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I can't help it. I really like to pose this question. What about the persons who has no bhakti, no jnana to write home about, no knowledge in vedas, upanishad, vedanga etc.... where would they stand? Would any of them get self-realisation? I am talking about real down-to earth persons. Just don't care what they eat, don't care what others think about them, just single track minded persons... not involved in any illegal or wrong activities though..all simple, down to earth, honest activity.. say for example, a meat trimmer in an abattoir. Kindly let me know, please, what are his chances?

Cheers!

Dear Raghy ji,

For all I know the meat trimmer might actually already be a Jeevan Mukta.
I think there is a story from the Puranas about a Sage who attains powers that can kill by a glance and he killed a crane and how he learns about duty from a housewife and a butcher.

Frankly speaking none of us really know the spiritual evolution of anyone.

Dear Raghy..as I said earlier..some people might not have any idea of religion,vedas etc but have firm faith in themselves.
SELF=BRAHMAN..need I say more?

here is the story:
This story from Mahabharata brings to light that our spiritual achievement is useless if we neglect our duties or Dharma.
Kaushika was his parents' only son.
"Mother," he said one day, " I want to go off into the jungle and devote myself to spiritual studies. "

His mother said with concern, "But son, your father and I are very old. Your father is so sick he can hardly move. If you go away, what will happen to us? Who will attend to our needs?"
Kaushika did not listen. He was determined to study the Vedas. His mother cried in vain as she watched her son turn his back on her and leave for the jungle.
Eventually Kaushika acquired great mystical powers.
One afternoon, as he was meditating under a tree, a crane flew up, and perched herself on a branch above Kaushika. Some bird droppings fell on Kaushika's head. Kaushika furiously threw a fiery gaze at the crane.
The crane immediately fell dead.
The sage felt sorry for what he had done. "How could I have allowed my anger to take over me that way?" He mourned.
Later in the day, he went to a village to beg for alms. The lady of the house asked him to wait and went to get some food. Right then her husband arrived. She immediately set aside the pot of food she was taking to the sage and went to attend her husband.
After washing his feet, giving him food, and attending to his needs, she came back out to give the alms to the sage. The sage was very insulted. "You put your husband before a pious sage? Do you know the power of a Brahmin?"
She calmly replied, "Yes, a true Brahmin is he who has mastered his anger. Please do not threaten me, I am not a crane that will die by your fiery gaze."
The sage was amazed. "How does she know about the crane?" he wondered.
The lady continued, "Oh holy one! You are a learned Brahmin but you have not understood the truth about virtue. If you want to be enlightened, go to Dharmavyadha who lives in Mathura. Any one will tell you where he lives."
The sage thanked the lady and hurried to Mathura. "He must be a great and learned sage indeed," Kaushika thought to himself.
But when he finally reached Dharmavyadaha's place, he found it to be a butcher shop!
A very ordinary looking man came out and said, "Welcome holy one. I am Dharmavyadaha, the man you seek."
"How can a butcher be spiritually enlightened?" Kaushika asked in amazement.
Dharmavyadaha smiled and said with compassion, "I know the story of the crane and of the woman who sent you here. Come, let us go to my house. "
The sage could not contain himself and blurted out, "But butchering animals is such a sinful profession! Are you not ashamed?"
"I am not," the butcher calmly said. "I am engaged in a family trade. I work hard and honestly at it. There is no reason for me to be ashamed of my work!"
"Holy one," continued the butcher. "If I do injury to other creatures, so do you as you did to the crane. "
"As we walk on the soil, we are trampling on numerous creatures. Nor is the air devoid of creatures."
"You see that farmer tilling the land? He is killing so many animals that thrive under the soil."
They reached the butcher's house. The butcher's wife was doing her house hold chores and his two boys were playing.
The butcher introduced the sage to his wife and boys.
Then the butcher entered the house and touched his parents' feet.
"Here is a learned Brahmin who has come from a far-off place." the butcher told his old father.
"Welcome, holy one," the father said.
Before leaving the room, the butcher remarked, "My parents are my Gods. My wife and my children attend to them with devotion and love. We consider caring for them to be our greatest duty."

"In doing one's duty cheerfully, lies true virtue. This is what the dutiful wife sent you to learn."
"Oh learned one!" the butcher continued, "You have run away from your responsibilities and deserted your aged father and mother. Spiritual achievement is useless if one has neglected one's Dharma, or duties."
The sage remembered his mother crying, "Who will look after us when you are gone my son?"
The sage apologized, "You have shown me the path of true virtue, the true meaning of Dharma, Oh pious one. I am deeply indebted to you."
Kaushika immediately returned to his parents and served them lovingly till the end of their days.


INDOlink Kidz-Korner - The Enlightened Butcher

 

[suraju06]

Dear Mr. Prasad,

I think you still have to do nishkama service, otherwise you are accumulating more vasana's. It also gives you impetus to serve the humanity.
I am not in the same league as you or Renukaji, but I think if you are merely existing at animal level, then you are taking a step backwards in your evolution towards jeevenmukta. So there has to be desire and a goal for your journey

.

All actions bear fruits whether you like it or not. Saranagati is a route in which you give up everything. It is a state of mind in which knowledge, actions, fruits, the two types of actions and accumulation of resutant papa and punya every thing is given up. Even the ability to surrender to God is derived from HIM and is not considered an action. I do not subscribe to the theory of state of jeevanmukta. It is a very elaborate subject. Would require personal one to one discussion.

 

[suraju06]

I grew up in vadakalai [COLOR=#da7911 !important][COLOR=#da7911 !important]Iyengar[/COLOR][/COLOR] house hold. Every now and again one would talk about 'saranagathi' as a lip service. I never felt it there. My life was not exactly a flower bed. There were lot of instances I got disillusioned. Bhakti, Saranagathi etc were just mere words for me. Personally, if I can't do anything sincerely, I won't do it. So far I have been maintaining that. Often times I fail; but my efforts would be sincere to my knowledge. Slowly 'God' became a concept for me. When 'God' is a concept, where am I going to find Bhakti and Saranagathi? But I lead my life with as much sincerity as I can muster. Truth, Honesty and Sharing is my way of life. I am making myself as easily approachable as possible.
I thank you very much for your message in post #55. I really appreciate your sincere reply. Fro your reply, I got a lot of things cleared out for me. It is very kind of you

.

Dear Raghy,

Your spiritual journey is no different from that of many others. May be you did not try hard enough to know/search for the answers or you gave up too early in the struggle. But I find that you are tuned now to the wavelengths in which you will find the answers. God has equiped you with the wherewithals to find the truth and answers. As you have said, be true to yourself,be honest, be sharing your good things with every one and be always approachable. Also keep searching for the answers for the questions which you have filed in the archives of your mind and forgotten. Open them and try to find answers. In our religion there are enough sources from which you will get answers.

I stop here. I have already become very advisory. I am sorry. Best wishes.

Cheers.

 

[suraju06]

Dear Raghy,

As my translit software was out of action I could not give you this. Now that I have repaired it I give simple and beautiful tamil verses of alwar which speaks about saranagati.

ஊரிலேன் காணி இல்லை உறவும் மற்றொருவரில்லை
பாரில் நின் பாதமூலம் பற்றினேன் பரமமூர்த்தி
காரொளி வண்ணனே கண்ணனே கதறுகின்றேன்
ஆருளர் களைகண் அம்மா அரங்க மாநகருளானே.

மனத்திலோர் தூய்மை இல்லை வாயிலோரின்சொல் இல்லை
சினத்தினால் செற்றம் நோக்கி தீவிளி விளிவன் வாளா
புனற்றுழாய் மாலையானே பொன்னி சூழ் திருவரங்கா
எனக்கினி கதிஎன் சொல்லாய் என்னை ஆளுடைய கோவே.

தவத்துளார் தம்மில அல்லேன் தனக் படைத்தாரும் அல்லேன்
உவர்த்த நீர் போல நெஞ்சம் உற்றவர்க்கொன்றும் அல்லேன்
துவர்த்த செவ்வாயினாற்கே துவக்கற துரிசனானேன்
அவத்தமே பிறவி தந்தாய் அரங்கமாநகருளானே.

One can not say in a better way the state of mind for observing saranagati than Alwar.

Cheers.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #59. Thanks very much for the nice reply. I already know that story. While I was typing my question, I was only thinking about that butcher ( again and again one thing gets confirmed - we just seem to think alike. Just weird!); but only presented as a 'meat trimmer in an abattoir to make him one amoung 1,000s others.

Argument 1 - That butcher, since he was honest and helpful towards his parents, sincere to his wife and children, truthful to others would be rewarded by an elevated birth in the next birth. As per the heirachy, his next birth would be a promotion. Eventually he would born as a brahmin and would get self realisation.

Argument 2 - Killing animals is a sinful thing to do. He would be accumalating more and more sin everyday! Since he has so much knowledge, his sins are commited with full knowledge, so more sinful!

Argument 3 - So what if it is 'family business'? Animals love each other like he loves his parents, wife and children. How can he do such a henious task just make a living? He is better off begging 'unja vrudhi' than killing an animal!

Argument 4 - this whole story is 'kudharkkam!' ' vidhandaa vaadham'!

These are some of the arguments presented to me when I said this story to others. When I said this story to my young wife, she was sitting in silence for a long time. ( not that she did not know the story; she knew, read from 'Nrusimha Priya' magazine).

I can't quite accept the concept of 'jeevan mukhtan'. If he/she is a 'mukhtan/mukhti, wgy should he/she undergoes the janma? Is not a rule of thumb - mukhti is - "no more janma - bye bye"?

Self = Brahman.. yes, you need to say more. Self is only self. Self is not Brahman. Self becomes Brahman only after self realisation. That is only "Self Realisation"; others can't see it, or feel it. So, when does the self realisation happen? when 'I' acheive all the Godly qualities attribute by 'me' to ' God'. In other words, I should be able to impart all the 'Godly' good qualities like Love, Afection, Empathy...... all such nicer qualities. Even then, only 'I' get a Godly feeling. I can't say that to others; if I did, I loose the plot! because, God doesn't go around boasting to others about himself/herself!

So, when we mention about someone as 'self-realised' soul, we don't really know what we are talking about!

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Raju, Greetings.

Thanks for the 'Thondar Adi Podi Azhwar' Paasuram. That is one of my favourite. I think I should get back to reading Prabhandham. Now that we can get the meaning in the net, it would be more easier. In those days I used to read and try to work out the meaning all by myself.. didn't get too far though!

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I can't help it. I really like to pose this question. What about the persons who has no bhakti, no jnana to write home about, no knowledge in vedas, upanishad, vedanga etc.... where would they stand? Would any of them get self-realisation? I am talking about real down-to earth persons. Just don't care what they eat, don't care what others think about them, just single track minded persons... not involved in any illegal or wrong activities though..all simple, down to earth, honest activity.. say for example, a meat trimmer in an abattoir. Kindly let me know, please, what are his chances?

Cheers!

In fact you have narrated all the qualities a man is expected to possess to achieve
self-realisation. Bhagawan Ramana did not study any scriptures.

Saint Pattinathar was an illara jnani. You can become a jnani, which is nothing
but destruction of mind ( mano-nasa in technical parlance ). It is the mind
which is the mischief-maker , according to Yoga Vasistha.

All men ( and women ) are bound to get salvation or liberation or whatever name
you can attribute to it. It is a question of time.

Our scriptures say emphatically that jivatma and paramatma are one and the
same. Remove the thought that you are seperte from Brahman. That is all.

 

[Raghy]

.

Dear Raghy,

Your spiritual journey is no different from that of many others. May be you did not try hard enough to know/search for the answers or you gave up too early in the struggle. But I find that you are tuned now to the wavelengths in which you will find the answers. God has equiped you with the wherewithals to find the truth and answers. As you have said, be true to yourself,be honest, be sharing your good things with every one and be always approachable. Also keep searching for the answers for the questions which you have filed in the archives of your mind and forgotten. Open them and try to find answers. In our religion there are enough sources from which you will get answers.

I stop here. I have already become very advisory. I am sorry. Best wishes.

Cheers.

Sri. Raju,

I have no spiritual journey. I am not going to pretend. For me, past is dead; future is unknown; only present is visible. Sometimes, even what I see, what is visible is not true! For example, Visible is I own one home; truth is that home is owned by the bank by the way of mortgage!

My janma in this world is the reality now. My poorva janma, if there was one, is an assumption; the future janma, if I do get one, will be a speculation.

I reject both assumption and speculation. My simple motto is, just live for today! So, why am I not living a life of lie, fraud and cheating? I thought about that. Why should I do that? Should I do that to earn money? So, what is money?Money to day is just a bunch of numbers in cyberspace! Yes, i know I need money to live. That amount of money can be very easily made from a honest work. I never have to look behind my shoulders. I don't have to lie; don't have to lie again to cover one more lie! I lead a life with happiness.

I may never find any answers. Sowbagyavathy Renuka seemed to have measured me very well! ( I don't rember the post number otr the thread) Once she said, "Raghy, you don't even seem to have questions!". She is so right! I don't have questions!

What are the usual questions? Who am I? Where did I come from? Where am I going?

The answers - I don't know where I came from; i could only assume about where I came from.. meaning my poorva janmas.

I don't care where I am going. " Just do your best; leave the rest" is my policy. Whatever i do, I just do sincerely. If I fall short... I fall short! What else can be done? I could have few 'Gurus' behind me.. I could have 'God' beside me... still, I have to do my best! Krishna was the sarathy; Ruthran was the bow; Hanuman was the flag.... Karnan knew all that! Inspite of all that, he was sincere in his action; loyal to his friend! He fought against all of them put together!

My life is very simple. I know I have one janma. Here that janma is typing a message. Just be sincere. That's all.

Sri. Raju, I immensely appreciate your reply to me. But I don't have any question at all. Not that I have all the answers; all the answers I thought so far are listed above. I don't have an empty feeling in life; I don't have an 'acheived' feeling either. (But I know, people like me! I know all those people are not quite well psychologically... but, still it is a nice feeling). I know, my writing is all over the place. But that's what I feel when I sit down and think about janma, life concepts. ( I am not even mentioning Karma here).

Cheers!

 

[N.R.Ranganathan]

Renukaji's narration of the story illustrates the principle of svadharma. You follow
your svadharma, and that is enough.

The original story is a fascinating one. The housewife asks the half-baked tapasvi
who thought he has attained the Ultimate - Naan enna kokkaa ? ( am I the crane
in the forest which you burnt with your angry look. ). See , he has not conquered
anger.

The butcher makes the tapasvi wait and wait till he has finished his business and
served his parents. After doing all the work, he attends to the tapasvi, not before
asking him whether the housewife has sent him here !

 

[Raghy]

In fact you have narrated all the qualities a man is expected to possess to achieve
self-realisation. Bhagawan Ramana did not study any scriptures.

Saint Pattinathar was an illara jnani. You can become a jnani, which is nothing
but destruction of mind ( mano-nasa in technical parlance ). It is the mind
which is the mischief-maker , according to Yoga Vasistha.

All men ( and women ) are bound to get salvation or liberation or whatever name
you can attribute to it. It is a question of time.

Our scriptures say emphatically that jivatma and paramatma are one and the
same. Remove the thought that you are seperte from Brahman. That is all.

Dear Sri. Ranganathan, Greetings.

With due respect to your message, Self-Realisation is not such a simple subject. That's why it is explained as 'கண்டவர் விண்டதில்லை ; விண்டவர் கண்டதில்லை ' ( One who saw that doesn't speak of it; the one who spoke about that had not seen it!). It is for each individual. It can only happen in small steps as our thinking and action gets nicer and nicer over the period. That's why, although a youngster under the age of 5 is usually so nice and innocent, we can't consider him/her as a self-realised soul.

I really appreciate your thoughts. But the process is not that simple. Kindly go through my other posts addressed to Sowbagyavathy Renuka and Sri. Raju, please.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Argument 1 - That butcher, since he was honest and helpful towards his parents, sincere to his wife and children, truthful to others would be rewarded by an elevated birth in the next birth. As per the heirachy, his next birth would be a promotion. Eventually he would born as a brahmin and would get self realisation.

I do not agree with your last line...Eventually he would born as a brahmin and would get self realisation.

Self realization is divorced from Birth Based Varna.

 

[renuka]

Argument 2 - Killing animals is a sinful thing to do. He would be accumalating more and more sin everyday! Since he has so much knowledge, his sins are commited with full knowledge, so more sinful!

Here again I beg to differ.
Killing anything is technically a negative Karma.I prefer the word negative Karma since we every action is a Karma that produces effect and we do not really have the eternal merit and eternal sin concept.

Ok so what about the ancient Twice Borns who killed animals for a Yagna?
That is sin too isn't it?
I feel that is greater sin cos they are supposed to be learned.
That's why Lord Vishnu took avatar as Lord Buddha to stop animal sacrifices.
(I know many will disagree when I equate Lord Buddha and Lord Vishnu but this is what I believe).

Lives are lost on daily basis as explained by the butcher when we walk,we till the soil,when we eat vegetables etc.

I agree that slaughtering animals causes pain for animals but why blame the butcher alone?
You see King Dasharatha happily hunted whatever he wanted in the jungle but Lord Rama was born as his son.

So now I am starting to wonder if God really cares who is vegetarian and who is not.
Vegetarianism is one of the tenets of Ahimsa but I do not really think God is going to judge anyone on his diet alone.

 

[renuka]

Argument 3 - So what if it is 'family business'? Animals love each other like he loves his parents, wife and children. How can he do such a henious task just make a living? He is better off begging 'unja vrudhi' than killing an animal!

It all boils down to Dharma finally.
Whatever you do for a living..do it right!

If he is a butcher he is not supposed to feel guilty cutting an animal.

Just like a doctor..I never felt guilty killing bacteria in my day to day practice.
Just imagine I prescribe antibiotics and kill thousands of bacteria daily but the butcher only takes few lives a day.

Ok lets take a Commercial Sex Worker..in her job she does not kill anyone but provides pleasure.

So lets compare all now..

1)Butcher..takes few lives a day say 10 animals

2)Doctor..countless lives..killing bacteria by prescribing antibiotics

3)Commercial Sex Worker..does not kill anyone


So Raghy Ji..who is accumulating more Negative Karma?
Can we really say?
No isn't it?
That's why I feel as long each of the category I mentioned stick to their own Dharma of profession one acquires no sin!!

 

[renuka]

I can't quite accept the concept of 'jeevan mukhtan'. If he/she is a 'mukhtan/mukhti, wgy should he/she undergoes the janma? Is not a rule of thumb - mukhti is - "no more janma - bye bye"?


Cheers!

Nope..there is something called Prarabdha Karma that still has to be carried out.

 

[renuka]

Self = Brahman.. yes, you need to say more. Self is only self. Self is not Brahman. Self becomes Brahman only after self realisation. That is only "Self Realisation"; others can't see it, or feel it. So, when does the self realisation happen? when 'I' acheive all the Godly qualities attribute by 'me' to ' God'. In other words, I should be able to impart all the 'Godly' good qualities like Love, Afection, Empathy...... all such nicer qualities. Even then, only 'I' get a Godly feeling. I can't say that to others; if I did, I loose the plot! because, God doesn't go around boasting to others about himself/herself!

So, when we mention about someone as 'self-realised' soul, we don't really know what we are talking about!

Cheers!

All this talk about Brahman sometimes is best summarized in a few words cos otherwise we would go around in circles of Maya!!LOL
Ok here is my reply to your question..simple and from Google Images:

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I refer to your messages in post #69 and post #70. Those arguments I listed in post # 66 are not my arguments; rather, arguments presented to me. Still I like your counter arguments. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[renuka]

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I refer to your messages in post #69 and post #70. Those arguments I listed in post # 66 are not my arguments; rather, arguments presented to me. Still I like your counter arguments. Thank you.

Cheers!

I know!!LOL
Especially the one about a higher birth for the butcher..I know you do not think on those lines.
But just for practical purposes we are having a Q and A here for the heck of it.