Dear Sri KRS ji,
My views are in blue.
Dear Sri RVR Ji,
Finally I got an answer that points out to the reason why our community should be preserved: That the brahmins are supposed to be selfless, live to uplift the society and promote the noble ideas such as non-violence, Truthfulness etc. Yes, I also get from Swami Vivekananda that the ideal Hindu man is a brahmin. But then, this where the rub is. A lot of caste brahmins I know today do not practice the above. I have already mentioned that the cultivation and practice to put a man to do all the above are outlined through the four ways, even though our community had over time evolved in to following the rituals as laid down in the Karma Khanda of the Vedas. And I dare say, that this purva mimamsa practice, which is what in my opinion is viewed as 'Brahminism', brings no value or least value to the society as the whole varna chain is broken in to pieces that can not be put together. The 'ideal' brahmin does not exist anymore. Instead we now have to pat our backs for contributions to the society in a limited ways, in a secular setting, be it getting nobel prize, or contributions to the secular arts. In other words, while the brahmins of yesteryear earned the respect of the society for living selflessly and solely for the uplift of the society in all spheres, that is not the case today.
Thanks for you above comments. Most of the brahmins particularly from fairly well to do sections continue to do social service. May be they are not seeking publicity. Even poor people are coming forward to do voluntary service without expecting anything. During their prime employment period, they are unable to spend their time for such social work but they contribute monetarily. But post retirement they are actively spending their time for social work not only to our community but to the society as a whole which probably most of the eminent members here are not aware of. Some people mastering vedhas, upanishads, slokas etc and again they are not expecting any money for their performance.They voluntarity come to various functions and perform excelently which all of us should appreciate
Yes, I have also observed this. My point is not that our community is not socially engaged, but 1) Our past role in the society has changed and 2) Our engagement is more in terms of secular activities. (what I mean by this is that almost all of us do not perform the prescribed FULL nithya karmas, let alone fulfilling that Pancha Maha Yagnas anymore.)
This is why you look at your forefathers' leaving the legacy of taking care of the village by a Trust comes in. By the way, we have the same deal in our village. Our role had become secular, nothing to do whether we are 'brahmins' or not. This, while noble, in my opinion has nothing special attached to it - our community like everyone else work, make money and contribute to the society anyway we can. While we do have some cultural aspects of our tribe that are worth preserving (our habits, reverence for education etc.), again, these are very generic. This is why, I believe that our community over time will become diffused, starting with those of us living abroad and then in India.
I have to defer with you a little bit on this. Only our community members took the lead and initiated the work in my native village which other communities are fully co-operating. Our community has to take the lead role and initiate wherever possible in such works. It is not to get some special status in the society but to act as a catalyst in the whole process. Once we act as catalyst or focal point, other communities also contribute to the work with more sincerity forgetting their local differences.
Could very well be. But again, I do not know how one can generalize it. In my village, the agraharam is gone. A mosque has appeared nearby and most of the homes were bought with Gulf money. A request to rebuild the local Shiva temple came from a NRI, who is not a Brahmin. While I can see why our community would be in the vanguard of the rejuvenation of the local villages, let us also make sure to give credit to our other Hindu brothers as well.
I usually do not comment on ICMs. Mainly because, marriages are personal choice nowadays and any broad statements like one should marry / not marry from this clan or the other, while may serve as a guide post or caution, do not in my opinion has value. It is at each family level and in the long run, these ICMs do not really matter anyway.
Again thanks for putting the issue in a better perspective. Personally I have not supported or opposed ICM in this forum. I have also quoted previously from the Brahmin Nayanmars -Sundarar, Sambandar life histories where inter caste marriages were very much prevalent during 7th to 9th Century AD and Lord Shiva himself has blessed such marriages. But during subsequent periods things have changed and nobody knows why it got changed.
Okay - as I have said, this is not something that captures my interest. Society changes at a macro level, with the demands of the time enforcing the adaptive behavior.
But one thing we have to appreciate that arranged marriages have worked very well in the past and also working fine even now. Failure rates are negligible. Most of these arranged marriages have taken place within the concerned caste itself whether it is in brahmin or in some other communities.
In an arranged marriage it is not just integration of a boy and a girl but it is much more than that. Both the immediate families gets integrated. Close relatives of both the families are getting integrated. I have seen in my village and neighbouring villages when such marriage takes places between a boy and a girl from two independent villages, both the villages gets integrated . In such an environment, both the boy and girl are made to keep the integration alive as their stakes have become very high in the society. There are elders on both side to intervene and correct even if some difference crops up at a later stage. This practice has been working beautifully till date.
Yes, India has the LOWEST divorce rate of any country in the world. I have nothing against arranged marriages. It has been serving our society for a very long time. But, in my opinion, this practice is changing rapidly, judging from the wedding invitations I have been receiving. We are also seeing this phenomenon occurring based on the postings right here in this Forum, even though it is anecdotal. The reasons for the arranged marriage system to be not followed are many, but in my opinion, these two are the primary ones: 1) Nowadays, the marriage takes place much later in their lives, giving them ample opportunities to 'fall in love' when their harmones are high. Add to this the fact that we raise them nowadays to be independent, logical thinkers so that they are successful in their secular lives. 2) The joint family concept is rapidly fading, because of mobility and individualism taking over and so the usual constraints in the past that would contribute to the formation and support of arranged marriages - one had a 'favourite' relative one can go to get advice who knew the situation - and this also along with nuclear families growing put a damper on very close relationships with the elders that would otherwise act as a barrier to 'falling in love'.
In the west, they have gone through this. India is just behind by a few decades.
I am just recollecting an incident in New York way back in 1994. My brother and me were waiting in the `Q' to board the boat to visit Statue of Liberty. We noticed a boy and a girl publicly kissing each other in the same Q . I was just wondering, `if they like each other so much, why so many divorces are taking place in the American society'. I asked my brother who visits USA almost every year but he didn't had any answer.
After returning to India, I saw few dogs in my street making intercourse publicly. The next day I saw the same dogs fighting each other bitterly in the same street. I couldn't resist but the New York incident came to my mind. Please don't think that I am degrading American society. If you feel so, I shall remove the above postings and there is absolutely no ill feelings about it.
I will leave it up to you whether you are downgrading the American Society or not after reading my explanation. But let me say a few words here, so that you may understand why you felt the way you did:
1. Public show of affection is accepted as normal in the western society. It is not considered as 'vulgar' (of course there are limits to 'how much' show of affection is tolerated - e.g., nudity, exhibitionism, public intercourse etc, - are offenses punishable by law.) Because we Indians are raised in almost a prudish manner with Victorian morals, we get scandalized and our senses are attacked by seeing this type of public show of affection. Westerners do not even gaze at such incidents (they do not want to invade the privacy of the couple). Also, such an act in public does not necessarily tell you that the couple engaged in the act are in love or not. They could just be dating. In western culture, just because one is physically intimate with some other, that does not automatically mean that they are in love. Now, one can discuss the merits of the dating system in detail, but one thing is clear - to our conservative minds they would not make sense. As much as today, it does not make sense for someone who grew up in the west to accept arranged marriages, it does not make sense for us to understand the open western culture. But, in my opinion, we can not compare the two. The socities are different and they work for each society. Divorce rates in the west arehigh and the reasons are quite many, but one can not automatically say that the arranged marriages will work here. The society here seems to accept the high divorce rate and while it is a source of discussions and studies, it is not just a very big concern as they all hope and think that they will 'live together forever' at the time of their marriage. I think the main reason for the high divorce rate is the individualism and the youth oriented culture that exists here.
One more thing about the difference between what is 'vulgar' and what is not. Two examples: 1) Women in swim suits bathing in a beach in India (especially near Chennai) and scores of men ogling. 2) Man and a woman kissing on the silverscreen as opposed to the vulgar tamil movies songs with explicit double meanings. The former in both cases are not vulgar, while, in my opinion the later both are. This is why, your analogy about the American lovers versus the copulating dogs is not valid and yes, again in my opinion is offensive because it reduces the values of an entire culture to inhuman levels, based on measuring it on our own vales.
Personally I don't want to interfere in the system which is working fine for generations. If the Tamil Brahmin community wants to go for inter caste marriage let them do so. If they want to go for Inter Brahmin marriage, let them do so. We are just playing a facilitators role in the Swayamvaram functions and it is up to the individuals to take decisions in the best interest of their children and family.
In my opinion, no one can 'interfere' with such macro movements in the society.
The reason I commented here, because Sri Kunjuppu Ji cited me and comments were made.
Now to the other two points. Again, respectfully, I still do not understand any connection between the countries we live in and our community fellowship. When sri Kunjuppu says that ICM is one way to increase our clan, he is correct. When you say that that can not be applied to the local conditions in India, you may be correct. But, I do not see, where 'all the western living' barhmins are saying the same things! I would go even so far as to say that members of our community living in the west generally have a better understanding of what is going on in our community in India than our brothers like you who understand what is going on in the 'west'.*
Again I stress here that I don't have any personal preferences. In the swayamvaram functions, we are just playing the role of facilitators only. I want to further stress here that none of the organisers of swayamvaram functions or the `tamilbrahmins.com' doesn't have any role in individual alliances and such alliances are made absolutely at the discretion of the individuals concerned.
But I got feed back from some of the participants that they don't like some of the writings here on inter caste marriages particularly by members living in Western countries. The same message was also expressed by local Kerala Brahmana Sabha and Tambrss members belonging to Kanyakumari, Tirunelveli and Tuticorin belt. Just like telling our friends here to restrain from such writings repeatedly here, I have also told the other side that it is just suggestions from our western counterparts and please don't take all these things to your heart.
To tell you frankly my position has become a `Thirisangu Swargam' after seeing both extremes. But I am very much sure that our community in Inida is not at the `Thirisangu Swargam' stage and definitely they have better clarity and understanding of the situation. The same people who were holding sub-caste mentality in their minds some time back are changing to Inter Brahmin Marriage proposals.
I have nothing but only admiration for yours and others efforts on the swayamvarams, not withstanding my opinions about the efficacy of those in terms of 'mobilizing' our whole community, which I have clearly voiced before. There is a posting by Prof. Nara Ji on the 'western' voices of our community, but to tell you the truth, such 'western'(presumably progressive) voices included many members from our community in India and vice versa. I hope one does not automatically link some of our members' progressive ideas to the 'west'. In the same vein, I hope our more conservative members understand that the ideas that they do not like will be discussed within the guidelines of this Forum. The goal is to accommodate everyone's ideas without overtly injuring the sentiments of our members.
Your third point about the poll. I was careful not to say 'not broad minded' about our folks attending the swayamvarams and that is exactly why I said 'without negativity' in my posting. My implication was about the poll (well amplified by Professor Nara Ji) and not to criticize, oppose or belittle any folks.
Frankly none of the organisers are experts in conducting such polls. However before venturing in to such a survey, we consulted office bearers of local Brahmin associations of both Kerala and Southern Tamilnadu. The questionnaire was carefully prepared taking most of their sentiments into account.
We cannot hire the services of a professional market research agency as it may cost anywhere between 4 to 5 lakh Rs for this activity alone. However I request all our honourable members not to under estimate the calibre of the participants and they know very well what they want.
Again, my comments are not in any way based on estimating the 'calibre' of the participants. I don't know what else and how else I need to say that my comment was based on taking a particular group's comments and making it generic, applicable to the whole community. Professor Nara Ji has clearly posted what one can deduct from the survey. And I totally agree with him.
This is why I have consistently opposed any idea of some folks here thinking that orthodoxy and conservatism should go away from our community. Everyone has the right to go for any alliance they want and I do not look down on anyone who want only brahmin alliances.
Thanks for your above statement and I am also having similar sentiments only. I wish all our honourable members here to follow the same priniciple.
All the best
