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Declining tambram numbers..

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There seems to be a wide gap between the view points of members living abroad and those here in India. First and foremost, your assumption that "for a majority of tambram families, we have someone outside of india" may be technically true; but that someone is not a son or daughter for very many tambram families even now.

ok

I don't know whether you will agree. I joined this forum in this May and for quite sometime the active participation was from a few members who had no problems in adopting and adapting to the ways in which most of our overseas members as also those in the metropolises of India, live. It appears to me that roughly, subsequent to the last Naveena Swayamvaram, many members have started taking active interest in the discussions here. I find that they try to project the cares and worries of the less privileged sections of our tambram society. (Honourable members please forgive me, I do not intend any disrespect to any one.) Since I am in a position to know at close quarters how different are the worlds of these two sections, I am able to empathize with the sentiments expressed by them also. To me it appears that this forum which was for the elites, so to say, has now become more broad-based. What passes off as good and enviable guidelines for the former is very much out of the world for the latter.

sangom, not sure where the elitist slant to the forum came. also what elitist means, i am not sure. if you mean that my postings are elitist, what can i say? even if i refute it, it will remain elitist as dabbed by you, and will so be quoted by others. which is why, i try to avoid any labels altogether. i think it is best to explain instance by instance.

but one thing i will agree. i come from a lower middle class roots including immediate extended ones, and over one generation have had the upward mobility to financial security. this does not necessarily mean that we have forgotten our roots. but my views could be interpreted from what i felt was a middle class tambram experience.

each time i come to india i see more and more of only tambram moving up and often wonder at the way the community has forged ahead against organized hostility or at best indifference from the state.

As an example, let us consider your advice that, "The tambram girls will continue to chose grooms outside of caste, as long as our boys are brought up as bookish nerds. Nowadays one needs to be more than that, and many many of our boys excel in their grooming and sports. Panache, style, charm all goes into the sport of finding mates – whether it be love or arranged.". Are we aware that there are still very many tambram families in, say, Chennai itself who are not fortunate enough to spend what will be required to groom say two sons to the standards cited above? It is easy to give such advice. But empty purses will not be able to achieve most of the things like excellence in sports, grooming of the standard needed to charm a mate. Since education is essential and a boy with purely charm, grooming, panache and the axe-effect, will also fail to trap his mate (except for one-night stands perhaps) the foolish parents spend what little they can on the son's education. The boys probably become more study-oriented in order to secure admission to professional colleges, at lower costs. The girls get free education and even with minimum expenses for make-up, beauty parlours, etc., they have the natural advantage of being the centres of attraction for the boys.

i think i am looking at the same issue differently. i am told by many in this forum, that money from the banks is freely available for education. perhaps mandated by the government. i am told that it is that easy, as going to a bank branch showing the app form and getting the money. i may be wrong, but if the above is true, there is no need for the parents to scrape out their savings. is there?

another fallacy is that it takes money to be groomed, panache et al. a set of weights cost about 200 or so ruppees. jogging around the block, doing buskis, pullups in corporation playgrounds etc. cost next to nothing. i am emphasizing a healthy body along with a healthy mind.

a strong physique builds confidence. self confidence is, i think the key to success. to getting good jobs. to doing well at interviews. sir, we need to instill thudukku in our boys. it is not the clothing that matters, but it is how you carry clothing. you may be tailored in savile row, but if you carry it like saidapet, what is the use; vice versa is also true. it does not take money. it takes a determination.

when i grew up, i knew poor brahmin boys, who looked fit and yet did well in their studies. one is not mutually exclusive to the other.

Advising the very many less fortunate members of our community about solutions which will really be out of their ability to implement, is not correct I think. I request you to introspect and find out whether you really had such poorer people in mind while writing your posts or whether you thought that all tambrams are like you and your more well-off relatives back in India.

i am not sure what you mean here. i belong to the kerala iyers trust where i do my mite, and of late we have not had any requests for education for that organization. the only requests are for health related stuff, and for which money is raised almost overnight and dispersed overnight.

another thing i would like to say - there will always be poor in any community. to raise yourself out of poverty you need to have a desire, determination and above a certain ruthless hatred of your current situation. you must first acknowledge poverty sucks. on the other hand if you wallow in the self pity of the poverty sand, and whine tunes to elicit pity or sense of guilt from the well off members of your community, i don't know what to say.

i empathize with elders who are sick and no money. i empathize with poor students who have ambitions. i am unable to empathize with people with no drive and who want to move up in life. moving up takes very very hard work. it is not only true of the poor tambrams, it is true for everyone here including my chldren and everyone's children. gone are the days when one could live off the ancestral land or ancestral wealth. in these days one has to put on one's own effort.

and personally i have a hard time believing in this chennai of today with its numerous factories opening every day, that a tambram can be unemployed. sure enough he wont be a manager, but he will have a job and chances to upgrade himself. if he is in the village and there is no job in the village, he should do what my father did, move out and seek his fortunes in the city, like many of us have done. i have a problem accepting the excuses shown here. they smack of a deprived entitlement.


It is true that other brahmin communities have not lined-up. but why should we presume that the effort is not worth it? It may bring results in due course. In the meanwhile individual cases will find out their own solutions whether it be icm, not seeing horoscopes, or any such methods.

sangom, there is no such thing as 'in due course' for a boy who is 38 and umarried. long gone are his first glow, hair thins, hips heavier.. and every day it gets worse. let me project his future in 10 years - after his parents have gone, he is left alone in this world, lonely and desperate and no one to share his life. do we want that? north indian brahmins marrying us is a pipe dream, i think. why has that initiative all of a sudden come to a full stop?


Here I think a mix-up happened in the thread on "Brahmin girls marrying NB boys". All that was said in a general tone went to mean only about girls getting married ic. There should have been another thread specifically to show that this advice and quick fix was being given for the problem of boys not getting girls; it had been discussed in detail earlier in another thread relating to icm, I think, when I had just joined this forum.

ok. all these topics appear inter related to me. girls going after ic (let them be, i say); boys remain unmarried (my utmost sorrow for them, and even more, because the parents are bull headed to stick to their prejudices at the expense of their son). man this guy needs a woman, and he has depended on the parents to find one. can they not let go of some of their moulded prejudices and find him one, that he can share his life? to me it is the height of selfishness.


I do not know what makes you conclude that tambram community is in trisanku swargam. Do you really feel that they are unwilling to change with the times? If so what is it that they should do? Pl. take into account that I am talking here of average lower middle class families with about Rs.10,000/= to Rs. 15,000/= per month income, rent of about 3000/= to Rs. 4000/=, two children and parents, staying in Chennai.

i refer to KRS' definition in his post. atleast the way i understood it. please go through it again, and KRS may be more articulate in his explanation than yours truly.

heaven forbid, if i have mocked poverty anywhere. or the poor. that is plainly not true. if it be so, please point out to me. in advance i have laid a platter of apologies in front of you. now i would like to see those mocks, so that i can mend.

Sir, there are many families in which the father did not have a job which ensured a pension or some similar retirement benefit. Still, in the desire to give a good future to the son the parents spent their entire earnings in bringing him up and educating. Their only hope for their old age was the son. But after marriage, the treatment meted out to them was so humiliating and the son was voiceless in front of his wife, that ultimately they end up in an orphanage. There is not one case but many. (FYI, one of the grand daughters of cp is also in one such orphanage.) I would request you to kindly come on some two months' leave to India, visit some of the orphanages and low-cost old age homes, meet with the tambram inmates there and then frame your policies.

as said above, there is no need to spend money on education.better to borrow money from bank. it is also a good feeling for the yougsters to know that he paid for his own education. pay it off when he starts working. all over the world, many many youths do this. it is new to india but a welcome phenomenon nevertheless.

i do not have answers for old people's agonies and loneliness. it is a tough time for many of us. i can foresee that unless i take care of my financial security, i am in for trouble that is the reality of today. if you have cruel dil, too bad. i know of enough stories of cruel mil. these two are like oil and water, and not meant to mix.stay with the daughters. the reality, all over the world, is that a daughter always stays with you. the son often walks out with his wife. but then we have a hangup of staying with daughters. get rid of that mental handicap. this is what i mean that paradigms have changed, and unless we do, we are in for sorrow.

The account does not end with this. Of course, this is also not individual case. There are many homes, comparatively richer, where the old parents are relegated to either the top floor or ground floor (depending upon which suits the dil) and they have to live separately, separate cooking, fending for themselves as if they have rented out the other floor. You might say it is all because the mil is bad. But then how can so many mils be so bad? Kindly look at what is going on in the tambram community here. That is why I said there is a wide gulf between the tambram whom you imagine and the real tambrams in flesh and blood.

whatever works for each family. there is no right or wrong in living separately. why do we have to insist that everyone should live under one roof, cook the same meal etc etc. once upon a time there was no choice. today i believe there are choices. the fact of life today, is that there is no dedicated dil to wait at the foot of the fil. because she is out working, earning money, tending to the children, cooking, cleaning, and pleasing her husband. let us have a heart for her. she is a human too. each person in the house has to pull their weight and in this context old age homes are good - you throw some money, and you have standard care. period.

also frankly i am not sure, what i have got to do with these situations. i am not responsible for any of those happenings. i do not advocate ill treatment towards dil or mil. but what i do feel strongly, is there is no reason for any one (well almost anyone) to wallow in their misery. to their mite, they should attempt to get out of it. find solutions. even partial solutions. don't sit and complain and whine and blame the whole world for your situations. believe in yourself. have that confidence. faith. if that means letting go of some ancestral practices, then let it go. much as we believe in rebirth, the one that we are aware of is this world.let us make it better for ourselves, our children and in the process for the community.


Yes, definitely there are people who are adopting the western style and ideas. they will find this quite stimulating. But then it is better to rename this forum as something like "www. affluentbrahmins.com"

i don't know about affluency. what i do know, is that there are various pov tossed about, including yours and mine. which is good, for with discussions, ideas are exchanged, and somewhere there is hidden, perhaps a sliver of hope or answer for someone else.

i do not know what is meant by 'western style and ideas'. if it is in clothes, when i grew up tamil girls wore thavanis; today they wear only salwars. changes happen and in many instances one has no choice but to adapt. one cannot tell one's daughter to stick to thavani, when the rest of the girls are wearing salwars. we have the internet. could we deliberately stay away from it, because it exposes one to 'western' thought and ideals. the best of west is par none in the world. the worst of west is on par with the worst of india. the choice is upto us, and no amount of advice will change that.

what is important, is that we do our debates without rancour. it is paramount to accept the fact that you and me belong to that vasudeva kutumbam. i feel very honoured that you have spent so much time and effort to reply me. what i say, is just another human mouthing off some nonesense, based on my 60 years on this earth. it is a very narrow and perhaps myopic viewpoint, nevertheless, i think i have the right to be heard, whether it be in a whisper or broadcast through a loudspeaker.

with utmost respects and regard, thank you.
 
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Sri.Kunjuppu said -

another fallacy is that it takes money to be groomed, panache et al. a set of weights cost about 200 or so ruppees. jogging around the block, doing buskis, pullups in corporation playgrounds etc. cost next to nothing. i am emphasizing a healthy body along with a healthy mind.

a strong physique builds confidence. self confidence is, i think the key to success. to getting good jobs. to doing well at interviews. sir, we need to instill thudukku in our boys. it is not the clothing that matters, but it is how you carry clothing. you may be tailored in savile row, but if you carry it like saidapet, what is the use; vice versa is also true. it does not take money. it takes a determination.

when i grew up, i knew poor brahmin boys, who looked fit and yet did well in their studies. one is not mutually exclusive to the other.
Sri. Kunjuppu Sir,

Greetings. I quite agree with your logic here. When I read Sri.Sangom's initial message, I recalled few youngsters. It is not just the physical fitness per se. It is also the psychological resolve. It takes a lot of energy to face critical situations. Unluckily, I had been there few times in such situations. Sri. Sangom is addressing such youngsters. I was ridiculosly lucky to make a good start in life (if one can consider Rs.480 per month as a good start in 1979!). But no matter what, I had an immense psycological strength; I was skinny, pathetic looking creature before joining the trade school, but, getting selected itself (20 out of 150 interviewed; don't know howmany applicants) gave the psychologiical supermacy and there was no turning back from that point in my life. Sri. Sangom mentions about the youngsters who had not broken the barrier to attain the self-confidence. I tend to agree with Sri. Sangom that a portion of the youngsters are taught to follow humility, end up lacking self-confidence. I think this forum may have work to do in reaching youngsters to boost self-confidence.

Cheers!
 
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Sri.RVR Sir said -

By promoting icm, our friends here are doing greatest service to the cause of the missionaries.

Unlike in other religions, Hindus have two layers. First is caste and second is religion. Caste is also recognised by the successive Governments which nobody can erase even if they want. Most of the Hindus doesn't want to give up their caste identity for various reasons-may be to avail benefits from the Government or may be for some other reason.

Missionaries are unable to make major breakthrough here because of the first layer resistance- i.e. caste. Caste is very much embedded in every one's life here, missionaries are finding it very difficult to implement their agenda.

Sri. RVR sir, Greetings. Kindly allow me to disagree with the quoted message, please.

Christianity and Islam which copied Christianity conducted conversions either at the tip of the sword or through proselytising. Both the religions tried both methods in India. Now missionaries follow proselytising. Remarkably, they target only Hindus, not muslims in India since both of them sell the same product.

Since Hinduism do not follow any 'holy book' revealed by the God; since Hinduism do not have any central authority who could 'direct' the actions of Hindus, the missionaries found it very hard to proselytise Hindus; almost every Hindu is an individual and they have to proselytise every Hindu. Very hard work indeed. To make the matters worse, Hindus don't take religion seriously. They have to brain-washed to take it seriously, which is an on-going head-ache for them.

Hinduism has one huge weakness, that is caste divisions. The missionaries are driving the wedge using caste divisions. Unfortunately, We Hindus provided such gaps for the room to drive the wedge.

(I know the whole forum is going to thrash me for the following words!). ICMs cement the gaps. If more and more ICMs take place, the missionaries will go out of business, for they would find it incresingly difficult to find gaps to drive wedges. (I can imagine my own daughter living in a Dalit colony! It would be real fun! In fact, I have seen the missionaries gets thrownout from the Harijan colony in my village for last 25 years! the missionaries made countless attempts so far).

ICM marriages would bring about a new Hinduism. Missionaries have no strategy to counter such a force. Present caste divisions help the missionaries. The progress the missionaries made in India was due to caste divisions; if not for the caste divisions they had no prayer in proselytising Hindus.

Cheers!
 
...... There are many homes, comparatively richer, where the old parents are relegated to either the top floor or ground floor (depending upon which suits the dil) and they have to live separately, separate cooking, fending for themselves as if they have rented out the other floor.
Dear Sangom sir, this is indeed true, and I know of at least couple of cases that fit the above. But, sometimes, the mils want to be independent too. My own father-in-law and mother-in-law were consigned to the top floor by my fil's mother, she lived downstairs, alone, insisting on having her own kitchen. My in-laws would send down some dishes to round out her meals, but she insisted on having her independence. This is my wife's grandmother, two generations above us the over-the-hillers. She lived independent till the day she died. My mil got all the blame for her mil wanting to be independent. She is now pushing 80, and still subject to nitpicking by her many widowed nathanars. May be my mil deserves all the blame, but I doubt it.

But, I agree with your general point, it is important for all of us to realize that the present day mils are having to pay, dearly, for the excesses of the mils of the past.


ok
... to raise yourself out of poverty you need to have a desire, determination and above a certain ruthless hatred of your current situation. you must first acknowledge poverty sucks.
K, this is so true in the case of my own chittappa, another personal story. My chittappa, hardly 7 years older than myself, my father's step-brother, the last one, he used to be derisively called Gazni Mohhamad, for he had a love affair with SSLC exam, never wanting to part from it. After several attempts finally managed to pass it. He was supposed to amount to not a whole lot. He went to trade school and joined BHEL as unskilled labor. Whatever happened, I really don't know, but something took him over, he took up LME in the evenings and then, AMIE. By the time he retired from BHEL, he had climbed to be a manager. Now, in retirement, he gets offers of part-time work, but his afternoon date with TV is too high a price to pay for a measly 20 or 30 grand. My chittappa is a role model for what can be had with sheer perseverance.

Cheers!
 
Sri. Kunjuppu said -

The unmarried boys will remain unmarried, and their numbers will increase. The tambram girls will continue to chose grooms outside of caste, as long as our boys are brought up as bookish nerds. Nowadays one needs to be more than that, and many many of our boys excel in their grooming and sports. Panache, style, charm all goes into the sport of finding mates – whether it be love or arranged.

Greetings. Sri. Kunjuppu, do you really believe it? If you believe it, do you think one should do something about it? I met one youngster (my wife says he could be in the wrong side of 30s) who is still looking for an alliance. He said 'I will marry any brahmin girl'. He said he is registered in somany sites; but not getting a response. He lives in his own home just by himself. He hasn't much of social skills. He teaches Hindi and has a decent living (no need to pay rent. Has to earn only for expenses). He has not paid any attention to his appearence though. I don't know how often he eats, but looks like a famine victim. I think his worry is psychological.

Well, I think, this forum should do something for the youngsters to develop their self-confidence.

Cheers!
 
Sri.RVR Sir said -



Sri. RVR sir, Greetings. Kindly allow me to disagree with the quoted message, please.

Christianity and Islam which copied Christianity conducted conversions either at the tip of the sword or through proselytising. Both the religions tried both methods in India. Now missionaries follow proselytising. Remarkably, they target only Hindus, not muslims in India since both of them sell the same product.

Since Hinduism do not follow any 'holy book' revealed by the God; since Hinduism do not have any central authority who could 'direct' the actions of Hindus, the missionaries found it very hard to proselytise Hindus; almost every Hindu is an individual and they have to proselytise every Hindu. Very hard work indeed. To make the matters worse, Hindus don't take religion seriously. They have to brain-washed to take it seriously, which is an on-going head-ache for them.

Hinduism has one huge weakness, that is caste divisions. The missionaries are driving the wedge using caste divisions. Unfortunately, We Hindus provided such gaps for the room to drive the wedge.

(I know the whole forum is going to thrash me for the following words!). ICMs cement the gaps. If more and more ICMs take place, the missionaries will go out of business, for they would find it incresingly difficult to find gaps to drive wedges. (I can imagine my own daughter living in a Dalit colony! It would be real fun! In fact, I have seen the missionaries gets thrownout from the Harijan colony in my village for last 25 years! the missionaries made countless attempts so far).

ICM marriages would bring about a new Hinduism. Missionaries have no strategy to counter such a force. Present caste divisions help the missionaries. The progress the missionaries made in India was due to caste divisions; if not for the caste divisions they had no prayer in proselytising Hindus.

Cheers!

Dear Sri Raghy,

Please spare just ten minutes of your valuable time to watch the following video

YouTube - Mittaai Veedu - by M.Balaji and team

I would like to have your views on the above video before venturing into answer you.

All the best
 
Dear Sri Raghy,

Please spare just ten minutes of your valuable time to watch the following video

YouTube - Mittaai Veedu - by M.Balaji and team
Dear Shri RVR,

Sorry to interfere. The video is superb. But going by today's norms, no prudent mother will usually dare to suggest to her son, "ப்ளூ ஷர்ட்டெப் போட்டுக்கோ" in the presence of the would be dil, especially since the boy asked the query specifically to his girlfriend. This indiscretion itself could go against the future mil becoming a bete noire for the dil which means both husband and wife.

I don't know how you will react to my view.
 
Dear Shri RVR,

Sorry to interfere. The video is superb. But going by today's norms, no prudent mother will usually dare to suggest to her son, "ப்ளூ ஷர்ட்டெப் போட்டுக்கோ" in the presence of the would be dil, especially since the boy asked the query specifically to his girlfriend. This indiscretion itself could go against the future mil becoming a bete noire for the dil which means both husband and wife.

I don't know how you will react to my view.

Sri Sangom Sir,

Thanks for your comments. It is just a video which I saw in the you tube which I thought all of us should see and understand the reality.

Anyway let us wait for reactions from others and then discuss further.

All the best
 
...Deliberately trying to increase population of in-group as a political strategy is a dangerous thing. Isolating Muslims will only radicalize them even further. I remember reading a report on population by religion, if my memory serves me right, the overall trend has been reasonably stable, with some slight increase in Muslim population, and the Christian population in % terms remaining quite minuscule.
I did not say anything about "isolating" Muslims. What gives you that impression?

Muslim population in India has grown by more than 60 percent in the last 60 years and formed around 14 percent of the total population as of 2001. The overall world growth is not relevant when we discuss Indian situation, unless there is some guarantee that all future increases in Muslim (percentage) population, will be absorbed by the west.

And when Muslims increase their numbers it is politically advantageous for them; so why should it be opposite when it comes to the case of Hindus?

The family size often is directly related to education and economic status. Well educated and middle-class families tend to have lower number of kids. This must be true across all religions. So, making quality education available to all, and economic growth that reaches all sections of the citizenry is a better approach to deal with these problems.
You try to make a convenient assumption that "this must be true across all religions". Please get some statistics about Muslim household incomes and family sizes in India and verify whether what you hold is true.

I know from experience that most Muslims do have more than 3 or 4 children, exceptions apart.

I am not sure what brahmin culture you are concerned about preserving. For most Tambrams, uniquely Brahmin culture that cuts across all sub-groups constitutes not a whole lot, perhaps the language Samskritam, nitya/naimitika karma, annual pitru ArAdanam, annual upAkarma, kaccam, what else, I can't think of any.

As of today, how many Tambrams truly make an attempt to follow any of these sincerely? Even the name of the everlasting great religion gets repeatedly mangled -- so much for basic knowledge of samskritam.

For most brahmins nitya/naimitika karma is drinking coffee and reading newspaper. upAkarma is one these nominal brahmins religiously perform, this does not take a lot of effort, it is only once a year, it is lot of fun with all the relatives and friends gathered, and above all they get to feel "Brahmin" on that day. The next day, how many do Gayatri japam 1008 times?

For annual pitru ceremony more and more people go to places where these are done on contract basis. Who knows, they may even prepare the food in common and divide them up among all the clients of the day. Many even opt the easy option of just giving certain items like plantain, etc. So, what I am getting at is, preserving Brahmin culture is not on the top of the agenda for most Brahmins, I feel.
What you say is true of most of the upper crust or elite tambrams living in the metropolises. But you are unaware, and that exactly is the problem, of a large segment of tambrams (I can say about smartas mainly; don't know about the conditions among vaishnavas) who make sincere efforts to keep our traditions going, even in their daily lives. If you come to Chennai, you will find many examples. Perhaps Shri RVR will be able to take you around and show you the innumerable groups trying to study mantras (purusha suktam, rudram-camakam, pancaati, mantra pushpam, upanishad (taittiriyam mostly), and some even studying mahanyasam, udaka santi mantra, etc. Yes their performance may be sub-standard. But the awareness is there. Many middle-aged tambrams still do the sandhyavandanam morn and evg. Hence it is uncharitable to brush aside all these things and conclude that there is nothing worth preserving in the lives of the tambrams which can be called brahmin culture. Of course it may not be on the "top of the agenda" because they have to eke out their livelihood. But it is still in their agenda.

Jews are among the most diverse and progressive groups. There are ultra-orthodox, and also just orthodox Jews. But the majority of Jews are liberal. The Jewish traditions they preserve are limited to Jewish holidays like Hanukkah and Rosh Hashanah, and Bar Mitsva for the youngsters. They view Jewishness more as ethnicity than religion. KRS may be able to throw more light on this.
The fact that most children born of inter-marriages are not brought up as Jews is being conveniently forgotten. So, what will remain of even the benign aspects of Jewish religion after the inter-married generation?

:), let me assure you sir, however much I try, I will never be able to stymie anything people want to do. All I can do is give my perspective on the issue. The action of people will depend on many factors and this may figure as one of the factors only to the extent they themselves feel is important.
I agree that our views are not going to affect the course of events in the world even an iota. But I feel these views will definitely show this forum, and hence tambrams, in a certain particular colour to the world which may or may not be beneficial to the future welfare of tambrams as a caste or community, whatever you may call it.
 
Sri Sangom said

Perhaps Shri RVR will be able to take you around and show you the innumerable groups trying to study mantras (purusha suktam, rudram-camakam, pancaati, mantra pushpam, upanishad (taittiriyam mostly), and some even studying mahanyasam, udaka santi mantra, etc. Yes their performance may be sub-standard. But the awareness is there.


Sri Sangom Sir,

You are absolutely correct. We organised a Rudrabhisekam to Lord Shiva at Paadi Sivan temple

Tiruvalleeswarar Temple, Tiruvalidhaayam - Paadal Petra Sivasthalam in Thondai Naadu

where we didn't engage regular Vadhyaars. They performed Rudram, Chamakam, Mantra Pushpam ருத்ரம் சமகம் மந்திரபுஷ்பம் etc with utmost devotion and total sincerity.Those who recited include a Chief Engineer of All India Radio, Deputy Director of Heavy Vehicles Factory, Avadi and many other top officials. They came in their own vehicles and refused to accept any dakshinai and were just satisfied with temple prasadham.

There are several groups like the above in Chennai and even if one wants to perform a Adhi Rudram or Maharudram, அதிருத்ரம், மகாருத்ரம் they can do so combining all these groups without any problem.

There are also several groups performing Vishnu Sahasranamam recitation regularly and they do Vishnu Sahasranamam- Akanda Paaraayanam விஷ்ணு சகஸ்ரநாமம் அகண்ட பாராயணம் with full devotion and sincerity. All the reciters are holding top positions and will not accept any money for the performance.

Our own member Sri G Soundararajn working a private company is well versed in all the above and has a very big group for reciting Thiruppugazh.

All the best
 
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I guess there is no decline in the numbers and whats more is there is an increase in population and no point in going beyond one or two children
 
Dear Shri Sangom sir, Greetings!

I did not say anything about "isolating" Muslims. What gives you that impression?

Muslim population in India has grown by more than 60 percent in the last 60 years and formed around 14 percent of the total population as of 2001.
My comment was based on your observation about growing Muslim population and their tendency to demand separate districts, etc. Sure, Muslim population has been growing at a faster rate than others, 2.7% compared to 2.2% overall. Still, as a % of overall population (see below -- I calculated these %s based on the numbers I found in Table 3.1 of the appendix to Sachar Commission Report), I can't see how they are going to overrun India anytime soon.

HTML:
       Hindu    Muslim   Christian  Sikh  Buddist   Jain   Other   All
1961    83.4%    10.7%     2.4%     1.8%    0.7%    0.5%    0.4%   100%       
2001    80.5%    13.4%     2.3%     1.9%    0.8%    0.4%    0.7%   100%
Next, I took the growth rate for the most recent 10 year period for which data are available (from 1991 to 2001) and extrapolated till 2050, and then on to 2100. If the growth rates of Hindus and Muslims remain the same as during 1991 to 2001, by 2050, there will be 76% Hindus and 16.4% Muslims. By 2100, it will be 68.5% Hindus and 19.1% Muslims. 90 years from now, Hindus will still be 3 times the size of Muslim population.

What the religious outlook will be like at that time is anybody's guess. If future generations are smarter than we are, probably there would be no religion at all by then. All said and done, nothing to worry about for at least another 90 years.

BTW, in spite of all the efforts of the evil missionaries, whose schools and colleges Brahmins love, have resulted in their % actually going down from 2.4% in 1961 to 2.3% in 2001, according to the figures found in Sachar report.

You try to make a convenient assumption that "this must be true across all religions". Please get some statistics about Muslim household incomes and family sizes in India and verify whether what you hold is true.
:) Is it not natural that if I am to make assumptions they will be ones that are convenient? Anyway, it is only my hunch that education, economic security, and justice will result in moderation even among Muslims.


Of course it may not be on the "top of the agenda" because they have to eke out their livelihood. But it is still in their agenda.
Yes, this is what I was trying to point out. Economic consideration will always trump preservation of tradition. Further, continuation of the tradition of chanting rudram etc., does not require caste purity.

The fact that most children born of inter-marriages are not brought up as Jews is being conveniently forgotten. So, what will remain of even the benign aspects of Jewish religion after the inter-married generation?
I will let Shri KRS answer this.

Let me conclude my presentation in this thread by summarizing, (i) encouraging or offering incentives for Brahmin couples to have more children is not a good idea, both politically and economically, and (ii) list of worthwhile traditions unique to Brahmins is not long and even this small list is not a high priority for ordinary brahmins.

best regards ...
 
my query is for all of you here - who have only 2 children or less - did you not know that you were not replacing yourself? did it not bother you?

so all those diehard tambrams who oppose ic marriages, why did you not breed to have more children, to improve the chances of selection for your offsprings? why do you lament for a lost cause, that you yourself were the cause?

pray enlighten me. thank you.
Sir,
We have two children and in highsight, we should have had 1 more. (It is a regret and we will be encouraging our children to have 3.)

Why was that?
1. The economic situation (as we perceived it) was like that.
2. We were thinking only about our family not the global issues and it wouldn't have made any difference to our thinking.

Children do cost a lot of money (time & effort as well) to bring up properly.

Am I opposed to ic marriages?
I am not in favour and I hope it does not happen in our family as I can see issues (which we can do without, if we have a choice).
Regards
 
No one is paying atteintion to one importatnt cause and it is scintifitc. repeating again. due to decline in physical work/ labour esp. of women, it is causing abnormal deliveries esp. cesarian section deliveries conseqently stopping further childbirth due to fear of problems.
 
Dear Sri Raghy,

Please spare just ten minutes of your valuable time to watch the following video

YouTube - Mittaai Veedu - by M.Balaji and team

I would like to have your views on the above video before venturing into answer you.

All the best

Sri.RVR Sir,

Greetings. Thank you for the link. It was a very nice short film. I enjoyed watching 'இனிய குடில்' (sweet Home).

The parents limited their child to just one. They just put every thing they have/had for bringing up their only child. It was an equal effort from both the parents.

The young girl wants to know everything about his parents. (We don't know if she said everything about her parents. She may have said that already; she may say that later; he may not be interested in knowing...we don't know).

The unspoken understanding is, the young man was looked after by the parents; the role would be taken over by the girl in the future.

His mother is very nervous; the girl is nervous too. The role is reversed; his mother is trying to impress that girl from the word 'Go'. His mother is actually concerned about 'loosing' her son to that young girl.

Everyone in that short film lack experience. The parents have no prior experience of either conducting a marriage (since this is their only child) or the experience of handling two youngsters in love.

The youngsters have no experience of including the parents in the conversation/activities. The time together could have been better utilised by the all the four of them going out together some where, may be to the nearest temple; or a park or any place of interest, where the atmosphere could have become more lighter.

The whole thing lacked an elderly person who could have better directed all the persons involved.

These are my observations and opinios about that short film.

Cheers!
 
i watched mittai veedu. loved it.

it is something i can relate to with three children, and many of my friends in toronto can relate. these parents could be anywhere in the world, and it gratifies me that this short film is in tamil.

we have come a long way in movie making. if this is even 1% of reality, i am impressed with the attitude of the parents. our children are our most precious gifts and i think, if done right, will continue to be our source of joy and succour.

it is always a learning experience, parenthood, and fraught with doubt. i loved the way, when the mother had doubts. a good parent never takes her child for granted. the mother was as anxious as the girl, to be accepted and be liked.

this young man is confident, i feel, in life, due to the strong belief he has, that his parents will like the girl. also, he has spoken a lot about her, so that when they finally meet, they know enough of each other, and we have to assume that upto them, the parents were ok. this was another step in the progress of their relationship.

the way the girl is presented, i suspect, that she may not have had such good rapport with her parents. just a gut feeling of mine.

one of the greatest openings i ever heard: was in a situation similar to this; when the boy later asked his girl friend what did they have in common, she laughed and told him, 'YOU'. and that was enough. the blue shirt here is the start of a great dil mil tobe relationship, atleast from the theme of this movie

if some of us would like to retrospect on this movie: my suggestions would be: would we have similar situations like this at our home? would our son feel free to talk about a heart throb and confide into his parents? if it be our daughter, would she do the same thing? how would we react to it? would we be llike the parents in the movie, and probably treat the whole project as something that affects the famiily as a whole, treat it gingerly and with care?or would we move roughshod over the whole thing? in this case the boys' parents approve of the girl as was presented to them by the son in the period prior to the meeting? what if they did not approve? if so, comes special skillsets to deal with it - do the parents have them?

very good movie. thanks RVR.
 
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Thanks Sri Raghy, Sri Sangom and Sri Kunjuppu,

I really enjoyed the movie which has brought todays problems in a nutshell.

Parents of the boy are having high hopes on the boy, highly matured and are willing to do anything.

Boy is also highly responsible and doesn't bring any sudden surprises.

But the movie has not brought the girls parents in the picture at all. Probably it is the reality today.

The movie is not particular caste centric but has definitely reflected the typical middle class brahmin family in a city.

Personally I have seen the worries of several brahmin boys at swayavaram functions more or less reflecting the same sentiments.

Parents of boys are willing to be highly flexible off course within the broad boundaries. If their son brings a fairly acceptable proposal, they may not object to it. Definitely sub-caste will not be a problem. Even other language speaking brahmin girls will not be a problem. It is up to the boys to go for right choices. The same freedom was not available to us in our younger days. To that extent we have to appreciate the change.

This is the case with most of the caste Hindus and the policy is not just brahmin centric.

At the same time,

Christians are openly encouraged by church to go for inter religion marriages with an ulterior motive to convert the new boy or girl to their fold.

Today BPO, Call Centers, Information technology companies employs large number of boys and girls working closely to each other.

I wish Hindu boys and girls irrespective of caste doesn't fall to the evil designs of these missionaries.

Caste identity prevents missionaries to implement their agenda.

All the best
 
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Thanks Sri Raghy, Sri Sangom and Sri Kunjuppu,

I really enjoyed the movie which has brought todays problems in a nutshell.

Parents of the boy are having high hopes on the boy, highly matured and are willing to do anything.

Boy is also highly responsible and doesn't bring any sudden surprises.

But the movie has not brought the girls parents in the picture at all. Probably it is the reality today.

The movie is not particular caste centric but has definitely reflected the typical middle class brahmin family in a city.

Personally I have seen the worries of several brahmin boys at swayavaram functions more or less reflecting the same sentiments.

Parents of boys are willing to be highly flexible off course within the broad boundaries. If their son brings a fairly acceptable proposal, they may not object to it. Definitely sub-caste will not be a problem. Even other language speaking brahmin girls will not be a problem. It is up to the boys to go for right choices. The same freedom was not available to us in our younger days. To that extent we have to appreciate the change.

This is the case with most of the caste Hindus and the policy is not just brahmin centric.

At the same time,

Christians are openly encouraged by church to go for inter religion marriages with an ulterior motive to convert the new boy or girl to their fold.

Today BPO, Call Centers, Information technology companies employs large number of boys and girls working closely to each other.

I wish Hindu boys and girls irrespective of caste doesn't fall to the evil designs of these missionaries.

Caste identity prevents missionaries to implement their agenda.

All the best
Dear Shri RVR,

You have brought out the position of tambram families very well. But whether you will be able to persist or protect the limit of "brahmin" to which you refer to, in the ensuing discussions (which I am sure, will be there!) is to be seen.

I am afraid this thread also will be devoured by the icm agenda, sooner than later; tambram numbers declining or not!
 
Dear Shri RVR,

You have brought out the position of tambram families very well. But whether you will be able to persist or protect the limit of "brahmin" to which you refer to, in the ensuing discussions (which I am sure, will be there!) is to be seen.

I am afraid this thread also will be devoured by the icm agenda, sooner than later; tambram numbers declining or not!

Sri Sangom Sir,

Did we ask brahmin parents to change their attitude from our days to the present day. The attitudes have changed over a period of time on their own.

We took a survey in Trivandrum Swayamvaram where more than 600 people participated where we were able to assess the feelings of the participants directly.

Participants have overwhelmingly voted for inter brahmin marriages which we have to respect and move on. We are just facilitators and we don't want to impose any policy on anybody.

We are reviving our swayamvarams shortly and we shall invite brahmins speaking all languages to the function. Chennai and Bangalore has lot of other language speaking brahmins and we shall make all the efforts to invite them. Chennai has substantial Telugu/Kannada brahmin population and Bangalore is highly cosmopolitan.

After TVM swayamvaram, lot of members of our community have started looking for other language speaking brahmins and we are getting calls from them regularly. We are just trying to fulfill the aspirations of the real stake holders and we don't want to impose our personal whims and fancies on anybody. Let us hope to see some inter brahmin marriages in the near future and based on their success, I am sure the momentum will pick up very fast.

Changes will happen continuously without none of our intervention and let us just play the role of facilitators only.

I don't think there will be substantial reduction of tamil brahmin families in the near future. May be it may be become "All Brahmin family" instead of "Tamil Brahmin family".

We don't have to teach a honey bee to extract the best honey. There are many varieties of flower in the field but a honey bee knows very well to extract the right flower to get the best variety of honey.

All the best
 
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Sri.RVR Sir,

Greetings. I refer to post #42 in this thread.

But the movie has not brought the girls parents in the picture at all. Probably it is the reality today.

Sir, we don't know that. That movie did not show everything; it just showed one incident and one conversation between the boy and the girl. It is true, it had not showed anything about the girl's parents. For all we know, the girl's father may beat the living daylight out of the boy; I wouldn't be speculating until I know.

Secondly, the girl is undecided. She is still in doubt; but the boy is decided. Unfortunately, before addressing her concerns properly, he took her home to meet the parents.

There is basic flaw in the presentation; in most cases, the boy's parents in majority, accept a DIL in 'love marriage' situations while the girl's parents mostly don't accept a SIL in 'love marriage' situation. That was not addressed in that movie.

I still consider the lack of an elderly person as a major set-back.

Christians are openly encouraged by church to go for inter religion marriages with an ulterior motive to convert the new boy or girl to their fold.

Christianity has been formed as a proselytising religion. So, one should not expect anything else. Most of the Christian youngsters sincerely believe that proselytising is honourable thing, they think they are helping the person proselytised.

Caste identity prevents missionaries to implement their agenda.

Sir, that movie has not shown anything in that angle at all. Caste identity had not prevented the missinaries in the past. We can see Christian nadar, Christian Devar, Christian Daliths etc. Caste identity had not prevented anything. Caste segragation had given small pockets of hindus to be worked on. The missionarie's job is made easy by caste segregation.

Cheers!
 
Sri. Sangom Sir said -

I am afraid this thread also will be devoured by the icm agenda, sooner than later; tambram numbers declining or not!

Greetings, sir. The thread initiator could even now add one more message in effect to say 'messages in support to ICM and Inter-religous marriages may not be posted in this thread, please'. That would deter any messages in support of ICM marriages. In fact, I would not post any further message in support of ICM marriages, unless I am invited to.

My message is simple. - Kindly don't lament the decline of number of statues; there are plenty stones around, go away and make more statues. If someone is going to argue, the statues can be made only from specific stones, not all stones; my reply would be, "Sri. Ramanujar did not think so when he invited all and sundries to the Vaishnava fold".

Cheers!
 
Sri Raghy,

My views are in blue.

Sri.RVR Sir,

Greetings. I refer to post #42 in this thread.



Sir, we don't know that. That movie did not show everything; it just showed one incident and one conversation between the boy and the girl. It is true, it had not showed anything about the girl's parents. For all we know, the girl's father may beat the living daylight out of the boy; I wouldn't be speculating until I know.

Secondly, the girl is undecided. She is still in doubt; but the boy is decided. Unfortunately, before addressing her concerns properly, he took her home to meet the parents.

There is basic flaw in the presentation; in most cases, the boy's parents in majority, accept a DIL in 'love marriage' situations while the girl's parents mostly don't accept a SIL in 'love marriage' situation. That was not addressed in that movie.

I still consider the lack of an elderly person as a major set-back.

I fully agree with you that the movie doesn't capture everything. But omitting girls parents -is it deliberate or just accidental? Anyway let us not go into very deep into an imaginary movie. But at the same time, the movie captures the reality of present day to a great extent.



Christianity has been formed as a proselytising religion. So, one should not expect anything else. Most of the Christian youngsters sincerely believe that proselytising is honourable thing, they think they are helping the person proselytised.

For the missionaries it is a routine ordinary work. But it is the responsibility of all the Hindus irrespective of caste to protect their turf. We cannot open the flood gates just like that without having proper checks and balances. Otherwise we may be playing into the hands of missionaries



Sir, that movie has not shown anything in that angle at all. Caste identity had not prevented the missinaries in the past. We can see Christian nadar, Christian Devar, Christian Daliths etc. Caste identity had not prevented anything. Caste segragation had given small pockets of hindus to be worked on. The missionarie's job is made easy by caste segregation.



I have also said that the movie is not caste centric.


I defer with you on certain points. Today Nadars who converted in the past are returning back to the Hindu fold for obvious reasons. Nadars is a highly enterprising community and majority of them are doing well economically. Still they marry within Nadar community only but they don't differenciate between Hindu and Christian Nadars. If a Christian Nadar girl marries a Hindu Nadar boy, she is automatically gets into Hindu fold without any problem. One of my Nadar friend whose father was a CSI Bishop has recently moved to Hindu fold without any instigation from the Hindu groups. Christian Nadars are less than 10 percentage of the total Nadar population and the community may give up christianity once for all in the near future.

Daliths doesn't have proper leader to guide. Mayavathi is the only all India level leader but her influence is limited to north of Vindhiyas. In the south, particularly in Tamilnadu, they are very much divided between Thiruma, Krishnasamy, DMK, Admk, Communists, Congress, Vijayakanth etc. It is high time a leader emerges for daliths who can guide the community properly. Missionaries make small headways only among daliths but it is also marginal.

Regarding Devars, the conversion may be negligible. Muthuramalinga Thevar was a staunch Hindu and he propagated Desa Bakthi and Deiva Bakthi.

Cheers!

There is no single leader/Guru for the entire Hindus. In such a situation, local caste/community level Gurus are suppose to guide the community at local levels which works without any problem so far. Changing this practice without adequate controls, will only help missionaries to a great extent.

All the best
 
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Folks,

I just finished reading this thread. And it is very interesting. Two questions right away popped in to my mind:

1. What are we 'preserving' by continuing our lineage? Is it 'culture' and if so what it is? And why should that be preserved?

2. Is there a difference between what the so called 'western' members of community are saying here and what our brothers in India are saying.

These are the seminal questions. My opinions are as follows:

1. No one has told me yet in any Forums or in any literature on our religion that we, as Tamil Brahmins should be propagated as a people. Please tell me why we should exist as people? What do we bring to today's world in terms of contributions to the mankind, today, with our 'culture'? Please forgive me if this is an intemperate question, but, is there anyone out there who can articulate this simple value proposition? Even Maha Periaval of Kanchi has said that He was not interested in the survival of a caste named 'Brahmins' if the Varna system is not in force with it's original intent.

Please think through this carefully. This is where my statement about 'Thirisanghu Swargam' of the Tamil Brahmins of today comes in.

2. Whatever we from the 'West' face today is going to visit upon you soon. I do not think that anyone can 'force' any ideas on others, if the 'forced' party is not receptive to those ideas already. Some of us are more 'progressive' than others. But this is not based on where we live.

I do not think also that a poll taken out of the participants of the 'swayamvaram' is necessarily going to reflect the broad sentiments of our community. But, I do think that the IC marriages are looked upon in our broad community today as 'one off' affairs, to be looked upon as the least wanted ones. How they are handled is from the individual family's perspective.

Regards,
KRS
 
Christians are openly encouraged by church to go for inter religion marriages with an ulterior motive to convert the new boy or girl to their fold.

Today BPO, Call Centers, Information technology companies employs large number of boys and girls working closely to each other.

I wish Hindu boys and girls irrespective of caste doesn't fall to the evil designs of these missionaries.

Caste identity prevents missionaries to implement their agenda.

All the best

Sh.RVR, declining numbers is the concern. But given a chance, for your own son or daughter, and inorder to maintain the tradition to some extend at least, which one you will choose ?

1) Brahmin Muslim convert
2) Christian Vellala
3) Paraiah Hindu
 
Dear friends,

My views are in blue below the views expressed by Sri KRS. I request all of you to give your views so that we can discuss the issues and try to reduce the gap to the best possible extent


Folks,

I just finished reading this thread. And it is very interesting. Two questions right away popped in to my mind:

1. What are we 'preserving' by continuing our lineage? Is it 'culture' and if so what it is? And why should that be preserved?

We follow certain customs, practices and traditions because our forefathers have followed it. We have also adopted some changes here and there to suit the present conditions. Indian constitution guarantees each and every individual to follow his faith and practices. Personally I don't feel anything wrong about it.

2. Is there a difference between what the so called 'western' members of community are saying here and what our brothers in India are saying.

Definitely there is difference. For example, we cannot propagate inter-caste marriages freely among our community members in India where as our western counter parts here advocate the same freely in this forum.

These are the seminal questions. My opinions are as follows:

1. No one has told me yet in any Forums or in any literature on our religion that we, as Tamil Brahmins should be propagated as a people. Please tell me why we should exist as people? What do we bring to today's world in terms of contributions to the mankind, today, with our 'culture'? Please forgive me if this is an intemperate question, but, is there anyone out there who can articulate this simple value proposition?

Both Government of India and alnd the state Governments recognizes the mother tongue `Tamil' as well as `Brahmin' as a caste. Government of India has decided to go for caste based census at all India level after a long gap eighty years now. In India both caste and language are distinct identities and I don't think of any better recognition anybody else. If the Governments in India decides to change it, we can think of our next move at that time.

Those who profess contribution to mankind should first look inwards before attempting to point fingers on others. When I say inwards, it includes the country in which they belong also.

1. Is it correct to drop nuclear weapons at Hiroshima/Nagasaki?
2. Is it correct to intervene in the Vietnam conflicts?
3. Is it correct to breed `Taliban'? When erstwhile Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, it is an open secret that Americans and allied forces cultivated the `Taliban' movement against Soviet Union
4. Again Pakistan was armed all along by the USA and even today more than US $ 2 billion arms aid package has been committed. Most of these weapons are invariably used against India only by Pakistan.
5. What is the necessity of invading Iraq killing millions of civilians
6. When an Indian Airlines plane was hijacked by terrorists, what help the western world did to save the innocent civilians.

Even Maha Periaval of Kanchi has said that He was not interested in the survival of a caste named 'Brahmins' if the Varna system is not in force with it's original intent.

Kanchi Paramacharyal has preached so many things but we are not following each and every one of His word in actual life. For example we have not given up buying silk saree which was vehementally opposed by Him. Still we respect Him and treat Him as a guiding force. In actual practice, I am sure none of us are following Him completely.

Please think through this carefully. This is where my statement about 'Thirisanghu Swargam' of the Tamil Brahmins of today comes in.

The changes which has taken place in India after liberalization in 1991 has thrown lot of opportunities, challenges and threats. While Tamil Brahmin community in general has taken up the challenges and grabbed the opportunities, it is also facing some threats also due to sudden opening of flood gates. If some body thinks that this position is `Thrisangu Swargam', it is purely their individual opinion and not the collective opinion of the community.

We have met more than 2000 families in the last one year and we have seen mostly optimism everywhere. There is also concern for less privileged members of the community. Trusts like KIT are already doing a good job. Even for our swayamvaram functions, we are getting enough support from the community in various forms and we have already made the entry absolutely free for girls at Trivandrum and also made `Annadhanam' for all during the last three events.

2. Whatever we from the 'West' face today is going to visit upon you soon. I do not think that anyone can 'force' any ideas on others, if the 'forced' party is not receptive to those ideas already. Some of us are more 'progressive' than others. But this is not based on where we live.*

One of our young member who has migrated to USA recently has written in this forum not to link them along with those who migrated to USA a few decades back. He has clearly stated that he wants to preserve his `Tamil Brahmin' identity and continue its traditions, values and culture like the way it is practiced in Thailand. Among my own relatives also, there is a vast difference between those who migrated few decades back and those who migrated recently. Those who migrated recently are investing in properties in India and are also repatriating their savings to India fearing that they may be forced to leave USA any time due to its economic conditions.

If some of you want to be more progressive, please be so. Please allow the conservatives to follow their path.


I do not think also that a poll taken out of the participants of the 'swayamvaram' is necessarily going to reflect the broad sentiments of our community. But, I do think that the IC marriages are looked upon in our broad community today as 'one off' affairs, to be looked upon as the least wanted ones. How they are handled is from the individual family's perspective.

Again collecting opinion from approx 600 people of our community should not be brushed aside just like that. In future Swayamvarams also, we are going to collect the opinion of our community members at every stage for every action affecting the community. We are just playing role of facilitators only and so far we have been very careful in respecting majority opinion. It is not just collecting opinion of just 600 people but we are also discussing with various brahmin associations and get their expert advice at every stage. For example Kerala Brahmana Sabha (an apex body of Tamil Brahmins in Kerala ) senior office bearers actively participated in our discussions at Trivandrum. Everybody appreciates our efforts and are encouraging us to do more.

All the best
 
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