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Declining tambram numbers..

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kunjuppu

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it has been said that you need to start a family of 2.2 to replace yourself. if your tribe wants to increase in numbers, you should offspring more than that.

i come from what i presume is a planned family. there is only me and my sister and both are born in the 1950s.

i suspect it is at that time, that the decline in our numbers started. i may be wrong.

i meet so many young tambram families these days. almost all with only child - boy or girl, it doesn't seem to matter. even trisha is an only child (i have a soft corner for trisha).

on the other hand, there is a lament that there are not enough girls to marry our boys.

i was forbidden from taking statistics & economics by the society of the day, when admission to iit was considered the ultimate. for some like me it was the kiss of death.

back to the subject: maybe statisticians here can tell us, how short breeding over the past 60 years or so, has diminished our eligible lot - not sure how many eligible bachelors are needed for each marriageable girls.

my query is for all of you here - who have only 2 children or less - did you not know that you were not replacing yourself? did it not bother you?

my spouse & i wanted minimum 4 children when we married. due to circumstances beyond our control, we ended up with three. i consider those the biggest gift of life.

so all those diehard tambrams who oppose ic marriages, why did you not breed to have more children, to improve the chances of selection for your offsprings? why do you lament for a lost cause, that you yourself were the cause?

pray enlighten me. thank you.
 
it has been said that you need to start a family of 2.2 to replace yourself. if your tribe wants to increase in numbers, you should offspring more than that.

i come from what i presume is a planned family. there is only me and my sister and both are born in the 1950s.

i suspect it is at that time, that the decline in our numbers started. i may be wrong.

i meet so many young tambram families these days. almost all with only child - boy or girl, it doesn't seem to matter. even trisha is an only child (i have a soft corner for trisha).

on the other hand, there is a lament that there are not enough girls to marry our boys.

i was forbidden from taking statistics & economics by the society of the day, when admission to iit was considered the ultimate. for some like me it was the kiss of death.

back to the subject: maybe statisticians here can tell us, how short breeding over the past 60 years or so, has diminished our eligible lot - not sure how many eligible bachelors are needed for each marriageable girls.

my query is for all of you here - who have only 2 children or less - did you not know that you were not replacing yourself? did it not bother you?

my spouse & i wanted minimum 4 children when we married. due to circumstances beyond our control, we ended up with three. i consider those the biggest gift of life.

so all those diehard tambrams who oppose ic marriages, why did you not breed to have more children, to improve the chances of selection for your offsprings? why do you lament for a lost cause, that you yourself were the cause?

pray enlighten me. thank you.
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,

There are some pre-conceived notions, it seems, in your mind. Why do you address "diehard tambrams"? Do you have any statistics to show that only the diehard tambrams (I am not clear as to what exactly your meaning of that word is) who procreated less children, and the non-traditionalists were having more than the required 2.2 per pair? As a person living in India for 70 years, among tambrams, it is the non-diehards (die-softs!) who were in the vanguard of family planning and limited to one child, especially if it was a son! (curious attachment to traditional requirements!)

The diehards, by which I mean those who were living in the slush and dirt of traditional values and outdated ideas, had more children, more poverty and troubles. Even today, side by side with a large balance of young men anxious to get married to tambram girls, there are a large number of tambram girls from the lowest rungs of the community ready for marriage. But the irony is, and this was mentioned by someone in the Naveenaswayamvaram thread also, I think, even these poor girls and their parents do not want a boy with limited means and aim for an IT boy and the prospect of settling abroad eventually!

Though I do not have statistics, it seems that there was a boom in male children during the 1970's and 1980's. I venture to say this because our tambrams are not known to have practiced female foeticide to any significant extent. The reasons for nature favouring the males is a mystery.

Hence your question should properly be addressed to "all those diesoft tambrams". They probably had their own rationale for doing what they did. Having been born in large families, poverty, and its associated difficulties, they perhaps thought that it will be best to restrict the number of children and optimized it a bit too much, viz., to one child, which will get the maximum care, attention and financial support. And if that first child happened to be a male, even the elders were satisfied of continuous supply of wherewithal in the next world!

The Govt. also was crying hoarse during that period about FP, we may note. Some incentives/disincentives were also brought in, particularly in govt. service.

All this while the Muslims knew the correct way and that was why Bal Thackeray's party made posters with "hum do, hamare do" side by side with "hum paanch, hamare pachis"! And despite the fact that Muslims generally do not favour love marriage, their genes are proliferating and seem to have better survival chances as of today.
 
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Sri Kunjuppu Sir,

My views are in blue

it has been said that you need to start a family of 2.2 to replace yourself. if your tribe wants to increase in numbers, you should offspring more than that.

In a literate society, the family size is reducing and population is declining. Kerala which has more than 9o percent literacy has declining population whereas Bihar, UP etc having least literacy are increasing the population. Tamilbrahmins as a whole with increased literacy are bound to have lower population growth.

i come from what i presume is a planned family. there is only me and my sister and both are born in the 1950s.

i suspect it is at that time, that the decline in our numbers started. i may be wrong.

I was also born in eary 50s and I have one brother and four sisters. Since cost of growing a child was very low those days, nobody was bothered. However dowry system was the only disincentive.

i meet so many young tambram families these days. almost all with only child - boy or girl, it doesn't seem to matter. even trisha is an only child (i have a soft corner for trisha).

You are correct. Nowadays tamilbrahmin community mostly have single child. (At this age I am not at all excited by Trisha. Anyway please keep it up)

on the other hand, there is a lament that there are not enough girls to marry our boys.

There is a shortage of girls for 30 plus aged boys but it seems to be short term phenomena. The problem is girls are not coming for marriage nowadays upto the age of say 25 years. Girls are better educated and well settled as compared to the boys which is also creating problems at the time of marriage.

i was forbidden from taking statistics & economics by the society of the day, when admission to iit was considered the ultimate. for some like me it was the kiss of death.

Today IIT entrants mostly come through coaching center except very few born brilliant students from our community. UP, Bihar, Rajastan, AP etc corner maximum number of IIT seats where as Tamilnadu, Kerala, Maharashra, Punjab, Haryana, Delhi etc fair very poorly. Since alternatives are available, IIT is no more an ultimate goal.


back to the subject: maybe statisticians here can tell us, how short breeding over the past 60 years or so, has diminished our eligible lot - not sure how many eligible bachelors are needed for each marriageable girls.

As I said earlier based on our swayamvaram statistics, at 30 plus age group four boys are chasing one girl. However our survey indicated that approx 60 percentage of boys parents are willing for inter-brahmin marriages. My personal estimate is approx 1500 boys in the age group of 30 to 40 are unable to find matching girls.

my query is for all of you here - who have only 2 children or less - did you not know that you were not replacing yourself? did it not bother you?

Since I have three children (two boys and one girl), I am not fit enough to answer your question.

my spouse & i wanted minimum 4 children when we married. due to circumstances beyond our control, we ended up with three. i consider those the biggest gift of life.

Very good.

so all those diehard tambrams who oppose ic marriages, why did you not breed to have more children, to improve the chances of selection for your offsprings? why do you lament for a lost cause, that you yourself were the cause?

I don't know why you are jumping into intercaste marriage as a solution. Even though we are all termed as tamilbrahmins there is a vast difference in attitude between those who have migrated to western countries long back and those who are still living in India and neighbouring countries like Gulf, Asean etc. Even within India, there is vast difference in attitude between people who have migrated to north India long back and those who are living in South. Unity in diversity is Sanathana Dharma.

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While people who are living in India are not trying to enforce anything on those who have migrated to western world, the reverse is not true. Repeatedly I am hearing in this forum that intercaste marriage is the solution to the problems of tamilbrahmins living in India from their western counterparts.

I wish tamil brahmins living in the western world immediately stop promoting intercaste marriages among tamil brahmins living in India. Let the tamil brahmins living in India choose their own destiny.

If tamilbrahmins in India prefer interbrahmin marriages, let them do so. There are more than five crore brahmins in India and already tamilbrahmins living in north India are choosing brahmin girls speaking other languages.

Each one should be allowed follow their faith and practice according to Sanatana Dharma. I wish people living in western world understand this principle
.

pray enlighten me. thank you.

I earnestly feel that I am not competent enough to enlighten you or any body else. It is up to you to understand things and make your own decisions. Things are changing very rapidly in India also and our younger generation have started guiding us. India in 1992 when Babri Masjid was demolished is not the same as India in 2010 when the Ayodhya verdict is pronounced. It is better to leave things to natural forces rather than giving unsolicited advices.

All the best
 
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All the Tamil Brahmins who have migrated to the West especially U.S and Canada can help the community by having as many children as possible. The average norm in U.S is four children. These people can afford to have many children and also follow the norms of the society. No one will shout about increase in population.

The social norms in U.S and Canada favour more children.

Let the NRIs help out the ******* by having more children.

The question is why are the NRIs following family Planning and restriction on the number of children which have been forced on us in India by our growing population?
 
Thank you for your kind and detailed reply.

If you don’t mind I would like to make a point: to read something and extrapolate a generality is not correct or fair, I feel. For example, you have made a statement that tambrams in the west encourage inter caste marriages. Even as opposed to inter Brahmin marriages.

No where have I seen among those in any thread in this forum have non resident tambrams promoting this idea. The closest and consitent they have come: if a tambram girl wishes to marry outside the caste, it is not the end of the world. Evaluate her choice based on the boy’s merits and not on his caste alone. A NB boy can be a genius or a scoundrel, just like our own.

I also accept the fact that ic marriages are anethma to many in this forum. But we cannot wish it away, can we. Would it not be better to educate ourselves as to how to deal with this phenomenon in a better way than disowning the girl? And backtracking later? I think that was all the non resident tambrams were trying to get across.

Ofcourse to those whom this topic is distasteful would rather not discuss it. I think to put this under the carpet, would do more harm than good.

Back to the topic of the thread. I still do not think that education alone causes miniscule families. Are the working women refusing to have more babies? Are the men forcing the women not to have babies? Is this something that is discussed in tambram families in india? I know of one here, in Canada, where the hubby forced his wife to abort the baby, as he simply said, it was ‘too much work’.

Your point that it costs a great deal is an excellent one. I suspect this to be the limiting factor in many branches of my own family.

Personally, I think, we are losing the critical mass required for a community to propagate itself if we have a lop sided numbers of bachelors of either genders. Time keeps on ticking does it not. I suspect that we already have bachelors and spinsters in their 50s or 60s, having spent their life, waiting for a tambram spouse. Perhaps in this context, there may been suggestions from overseas folks to look beyond our own caste. But if you read carefully, nobody was peddling ic marriages per se as a solution to all ills.

When there are matching boys vs girls within tambrams, what is the acceptable solution for those residing in tamil nadu. I fully agree with you that tambrams of other states, in two generations, appear to prefer to seek mates from their adopted states, though I am not so sure, if these are all Brahmins. Admittedly, in the north, the upper castes like Brahmins, baniyas, jains, rajputs et al, have less social chasm than the Brahmin/NB divide in tamil nadu.

Again, marriage is a personal affair to an extent. In this context, I think people should not complain if our girls want to marry other castes. I am quite sure many boys do too, but there does not seem to be any lament over it. I am yet to see a post or thread complaining about our boys indulging in ic marriages.

Finally, ‘pray enlighten me’, is an 18th century or around thereabouts way, of requesting a response. In no way was it soliciting enlightenment. My apologies for any confusion. Thank you.
 
Dear Kunjuppu ji,

My views are in blue.
Thank you for your kind and detailed reply.

If you don’t mind I would like to make a point: to read something and extrapolate a generality is not correct or fair, I feel. For example, you have made a statement that tambrams in the west encourage inter caste marriages. Even as opposed to inter Brahmin marriages.

You are a longstanding member in this forum. Please go through the past postings and decide who are all promoting intercaste marriages in this forum repeatedly. Personally we have taken a survey from the participants of TVM swayamvaram where nobody is interested in intercaste marriage. After this survey, we the organisers of swayamvaram functions have closed the issue of intercaste marriage once for all from our minds. But some how or other it is ignited repeatedly in this forum mostly by people living in the western world. Even my reply to you is only based on your view to enhance the population by adopting intercaste marriage

No where have I seen among those in any thread in this forum have non resident tambrams promoting this idea. The closest and consitent they have come: if a tambram girl wishes to marry outside the caste, it is not the end of the world. Evaluate her choice based on the boy’s merits and not on his caste alone. A NB boy can be a genius or a scoundrel, just like our own.

Personally I took a statistics of my village where we had 65 brahmin families few decades back. Except two girls marrying other community boys, I have not come across inter-caste marriage in a very big way. Even in these two cases, the parents are responsible to a great extent. In my surroundings in Chennai City also I came across just one girl marrying other community boy where again parents have to be blamed. We are not bothered about all these things and let them have a happy married life. It is upto the parents & the girl and we have nothing to say about the whole thing.

I also accept the fact that ic marriages are anethma to many in this forum. But we cannot wish it away, can we. Would it not be better to educate ourselves as to how to deal with this phenomenon in a better way than disowning the girl? And backtracking later? I think that was all the non resident tambrams were trying to get across.

This issue is being discussed by various brahmin groups within India and self introspection is being done in great detail. To sight an example `Sruthivaani' in Trichur organised a meeting of girls parents some time back and gave lot of suggestions. It is not a phenomena for Brahmin community alone but other communities have similar problems. My own supervisor not belonging to our community sent his daughter to native place once she attained age since he feared that she should not become a victim of intercaste marriage. He told me plainly that his community will not approve intercaste marriage even if the boy is from brahmin community. So each community likes to take care of its culture, tradition and practices which most of our community members living in India respect to the best possible extent. Respecting various cultures, traditions and practics is nothing but Sanatana Dharma

Ofcourse to those whom this topic is distasteful would rather not discuss it. I think to put this under the carpet, would do more harm than good.

Personally I am not interested in hiding anything under the carpet. The matter has been discussed for quite some time and I have also participated in the discussions. But harping on only on this issue again and again has to be avoided

Back to the topic of the thread. I still do not think that education alone causes miniscule families. Are the working women refusing to have more babies? Are the men forcing the women not to have babies? Is this something that is discussed in tambram families in india? I know of one here, in Canada, where the hubby forced his wife to abort the baby, as he simply said, it was ‘too much work’.

Definitely working girls are postponing pregnancy in India also. But it is a general society problem and not limited to Tamil Brahmins girls alone. But I have not come across willful abortion in my circles. Again it is the duty of the parents to tell the consequences of delaying child birth. If the age difference between the child and parents are more, it will create more problems at a later stage.

Your point that it costs a great deal is an excellent one. I suspect this to be the limiting factor in many branches of my own family.

Education has become a very costly affair nowadays. Government aided schools have become useless and private schools have become exorbitantly costly. One of the reasons for reducing family size is also costly education.

Personally, I think, we are losing the critical mass required for a community to propagate itself if we have a lop sided numbers of bachelors of either genders. Time keeps on ticking does it not. I suspect that we already have bachelors and spinsters in their 50s or 60s, having spent their life, waiting for a tambram spouse. Perhaps in this context, there may been suggestions from overseas folks to look beyond our own caste. But if you read carefully, nobody was peddling ic marriages per se as a solution to all ills.

Again present materialistic world has created all these problems. Unless we start respecting our old value systems, this is bound to happen. Again it is not limited to brahmin community alone and it is the society problem in the cities and towns. People have to balance between materialistic life and family values, cultures and traditions. I don't think intercaste marriage is a solution to this problem. People have to learn to live in a particular way respecting our age old culture, tradition & values instead of allowing the life to take its own course

When there are matching boys vs girls within tambrams, what is the acceptable solution for those residing in tamil nadu. I fully agree with you that tambrams of other states, in two generations, appear to prefer to seek mates from their adopted states, though I am not so sure, if these are all Brahmins. Admittedly, in the north, the upper castes like Brahmins, baniyas, jains, rajputs et al, have less social chasm than the Brahmin/NB divide in tamil nadu.

Personally I have seen people living in Mumbai/Delhi and other areas getting married to locals. They claim that their spouses are local Brahmins and nobody so far has attempted to verify the same. It is their problem and personally I don't want to interfere in their affairs.

Again, marriage is a personal affair to an extent. In this context, I think people should not complain if our girls want to marry other castes. I am quite sure many boys do too, but there does not seem to be any lament over it. I am yet to see a post or thread complaining about our boys indulging in ic marriages.

Girls of our community got freedom only in the last one or two decades. May be just one or two child family has made them to get maximum freedom irrespective of whether the child is a boy or girl. But girls seems to be more adventurous as compared to boys. It may be a pure short term problem which may get corrected in the long term.Again parents play an important role in the whole affair.

Personally my children will give due respect to my feelings and at the same I will also give equal respect to their feelings. It is not just forcing one's wish on other. I don't expect any surprises in this arrangement.

Finally, ‘pray enlighten me’, is an 18th century or around thereabouts way, of requesting a response. In no way was it soliciting enlightenment. My apologies for any confusion.

There is no confusion and there is no need for any apology. I just wrote that I am not a competent person to enlighten any body.


Thank you.

All the best
 
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bravo bravo bravo
you are correct. 'Just life take its own cource' this is not admissible in india where there are strong family bonds and own traditions of different communities. Politics of this country is nearabout eighty persent based on caste equation. so this approach of ignorance is not wise one. Parents must find good parteners for their children it is age old tradition. there is not point in thiking that those who leave groom or bride finding to parents are somewhat inferior. afterall there is respect for white hairs, they know something more about life than younger, because of their experiences.
 
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Definitely working girls are postponing pregnancy in India also. But it is a general society problem and not limited to Tamil Brahmins girls alone. But I have not come across willful abortion in my circles. Again it is the duty of the parents to tell the consequences of delaying child birth. If the age difference between the child and parents are more, it will create more problems at a later stage.
Dear Shri RVR,

There seems to be some awareness coming all around for not delaying pregnancies. The medical people also advise girls to conceive and deliver, as far as possible, early and in any case before they are 30. In two recent cases the girls got married at the age of 26 or 27 and both had their first child in a year's time. I casually enquired as to why there was such a hurry. (I felt perhaps they did not plan properly.) The answer I got from the boys (husbands) was that it is better to have at least the first child before the mother was 30 and anyway, they have married for having children and raising a family; so earlier the better. Hence I think the delayed pregnancies, single child norm, etc., are slowly bound to disappear. In the meanwhile the numbers will continue to show further shrinkage for a few more years to come.
 
Dear Shri RVR,

There seems to be some awareness coming all around for not delaying pregnancies. The medical people also advise girls to conceive and deliver, as far as possible, early and in any case before they are 30. In two recent cases the girls got married at the age of 26 or 27 and both had their first child in a year's time. I casually enquired as to why there was such a hurry. (I felt perhaps they did not plan properly.) The answer I got from the boys (husbands) was that it is better to have at least the first child before the mother was 30 and anyway, they have married for having children and raising a family; so earlier the better. Hence I think the delayed pregnancies, single child norm, etc., are slowly bound to disappear. In the meanwhile the numbers will continue to show further shrinkage for a few more years to come.

Sri Sangom Sir,

Awareness is bound to come as there is no other option. I wish girls should get married before 25 and boys should get married before 30. As you rightly said, the couple should not delay the first child so that the age difference betwen the parents and the child is not very big.

I don't expect people of our community to get out of single or two child norms. We don't have to feel bad about the same as it is a global phenomena in most of the developed societies.

Just like consolidation taking place in business units, consolidation of all brahmin sects is bound to happen in the future. There are more than 5 crore brahmins in the whole of India and I will not be surprised if the entire brahmin community becomes one. It is not a small population and it is bigger than the entire population Canada and Australian continent.

www.outlookindia.com | Brahmins In India

Uniting the entire brahmin population is the need of the hour. Let us make sincere attempts in that direction

All the best
 
Sri. RVR Sir,

Greetings. I am one of the members often write in support of ICM, if the son's/daughter's happiness is involved. But strangely enough, if the children know they have parents support in choosin their partners, more often than not, they always consult with their parents first. While most brahmin parents don't like the idea of their children falling in love with NB boy/girl, are they supportive to their children falling in love with brahmin boy/girl? When the parents try to control any kind of 'love thinghy', then it is bound to break at the seams. The parents think the children falling in love is like a 'sin'; they say 'நான் என் பசங்களை அப்படியெல்லாம் வளர்க்கலை ...' as if the children who fall in love have been trained to do that!

Caste brahmin boys are minoritiy in the boys population; they do face difficult task getting the college admission, getting a government employment, service commission exams.....and promotions when (if) they do get a job. Quite an 'unenviable' situation indeed. In such situations, it is the parents and other elder's duty to help them become 'street smart'. Most of the girls don't get attracted with income, money and status. They fall for dashing/ arrogant/ confident young men. Imagine the 'Nadars' of yester years; most of them started some small business, worked hard and made money. I have seen so many of them. They didn't wait to pass bank exams or service commission exams or any such things. With the kind of population in India, mostly everything gets sold. I don't know....caste brahmin boys have to be more dashing to win brahmin giirls.

Sri. Kunjuppu's concern is a valid concern. The sustainable rate of growth is not present amoung caste brahmin population. I too think in those lines.

Cheers!
 
Thanks Sri Raghy,

My replies are in blue.

Sri. RVR Sir,

Greetings. I am one of the members often write in support of ICM, if the son's/daughter's happiness is involved. But strangely enough, if the children know they have parents support in choosin their partners, more often than not, they always consult with their parents first. While most brahmin parents don't like the idea of their children falling in love with NB boy/girl, are they supportive to their children falling in love with brahmin boy/girl? When the parents try to control any kind of 'love thinghy', then it is bound to break at the seams. The parents think the children falling in love is like a 'sin'; they say 'நான் என் பசங்களை அப்படியெல்லாம் வளர்க்கலை ...' as if the children who fall in love have been trained to do that!

Things have changed very much now. Parents of brahmin boys are openly encouraging their boys to fall in love with a brahmin girl. Every body knows the writing on the wall that `there is a shortage of girls for 30 plus boys'. They don't bother about sub-sects and other criteria and will not mind even other language speaking brahmin girls. In Trivandrum swayamvaram survey, we were surprised to find 60 percentage parents ticking yes to other language speaking brahmin girls. India in 2010 is totally different from India in 1992. Ayodhya is no more an issue in the minds of young Indians and the same is reflected when it comes to personal life also.

Caste brahmin boys are minoritiy in the boys population; they do face difficult task getting the college admission, getting a government employment, service commission exams.....and promotions when (if) they do get a job. Quite an 'unenviable' situation indeed. In such situations, it is the parents and other elder's duty to help them become 'street smart'. Most of the girls don't get attracted with income, money and status. They fall for dashing/ arrogant/ confident young men. Imagine the 'Nadars' of yester years; most of them started some small business, worked hard and made money. I have seen so many of them. They didn't wait to pass bank exams or service commission exams or any such things. With the kind of population in India, mostly everything gets sold. I don't know....caste brahmin boys have to be more dashing to win brahmin giirls.

I fully agree with your view that our boys should be more enterprising and entrepreneurial. They have to dream like Ambanis and become big business magnets. Mindset should change from joining 9 to 5 jobs to offering jobs to others. One need not be highly educated for the purpose but has to be really street smart. Let us identify talented entrepreneur potential boys from our community and help them establish own businesses through our trust.

Personally I aspired to become a bank clerk almost 38 years back but was destined to run my own business. One of my son has already resigned his job and is starting his own business. I am encouraging him to the fullest extent. Unless our boys are enterprising, they cannot attract girls just like that.


Sri. Kunjuppu's concern is a valid concern. The sustainable rate of growth is not present amoung caste brahmin population. I too think in those lines.

Nobody can help in declining population among our community. But our community in India is willing to accept Inter Brahmin marriages which is a welcome change. There are more than 5.5 crore brahmins speaking different languages in the country and let them mingle with them freely. It is better for the country as well to the community. Such a population of 5 crore plus is not a small figure to ignore by any body including our politicians. Intercaste may not be the solution since there is resistance from other castes also. Let us hope that mass inter brahmin marriages takes place so that the community becomes more vibrant in the future.

Cheers!

I wish members of our community residing in the western world understands the sentiments of our community members residing in India. Ultimately the decisions are taken at Individual levels and no body should force anything on any body.

All the best
 
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Sri Sangom Sir,

Awareness is bound to come as there is no other option. I wish girls should get married before 25 and boys should get married before 30. As you rightly said, the couple should not delay the first child so that the age difference betwen the parents and the child is not very big.

I don't expect people of our community to get out of single or two child norms. We don't have to feel bad about the same as it is a global phenomena in most of the developed societies.

Just like consolidation taking place in business units, consolidation of all brahmin sects is bound to happen in the future. There are more than 5 crore brahmins in the whole of India and I will not be surprised if the entire brahmin community becomes one. It is not a small population and it is bigger than the entire population Canada and Australian continent.

www.outlookindia.com | Brahmins In India

Uniting the entire brahmin population is the need of the hour. Let us make sincere attempts in that direction

All the best
Shri RVR,

I wish we are able to persuade brahmins with enough resources and wealthy religious mutts, to give some incentive for the third child of brahmin couples to be born in future, so as to take away a part of the high education costs, especially after plus 2. Will it not induce at least some young couples to relax the two children norm? Perhaps many of us can contribute to the mutts towards this purpose. Will it be illegal?
 
Dear K,

As can be expected, I have a different take on this. Many moons ago there was one Appaiah -- he seemed a a dried in the wool RSS type, at least to me -- who made the same suggestion, go forth you brahmin boys and girls and multiply.

IMO, this is a very selfish and short-sighted idea, and in the end it may be quite counter-productive. On a broad scale, with the global population having crossed 7 billion and marching on, and the Indian population not expected to stabilize until at least the middle of this century, the last thing any young couple should do in India is to add to the burden of mother earth.

Secondly, even if our boys and girls take this to heart and produce at the rate of 1 every year for several years through their productive years, still Tambrams will only be a minuscule minority in TN with not very much political power. If this is perceived as caste-centric, and if other castes also do the same, what then? In the end, there will just be more brahmin boys and girls competing with each other for the ever more declining piece of the left over pie.

Thirdly, what will we be preserving by this increased population that cannot be done by being more open? Can we not preserve the benign aspects of brahmin culture like the jews do when they marry so often outside religion, the most recent high-profile case being Chelsey Clinton. (I know, I know, this is bound to be taken as uncalled for interference in the private affairs of those who live in India by one who lives in the west with no idea about the ground realities :()

All around, aiming to increase the Brahmin population by encouraging our youngsters to have more kids is a bad idea, all around, methinks.

cheers ...
 
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the question of marrying outside the tribe, either for boys or girls, should be looked at objectively and with some goals in mind, and with family support. i think so.

i do not say 'community support', because ultimately i feel we are among the least of community centric people. we 'speak' of community, but even the most ardent brahminist here, if it were to affect his or her life, would accept fait accompli, willingly or otherwise.

i do not know of anyone who nowadays who banishes the offspring because of mixed marriages, to white, muslim or christian. they accept it and work around it. none of them, that i know, now a days, even speak disparagingly of the notofcaste relation.

i am talking of relatives or friends in india, and not abroad.

it was not long ago i think, it was a jewish intellectual who said, that family planning is ok for everyone, except jews and parsis. i am somewhat inclined to say the same thing about brahmins, but then i have some quesy feelings about brahminism as expressed here among many a folks.

if it is the love of thayir sadham, a good work ethic, thrift, a certain style of cooking etc. i am ok with it. if it just be these values, i cannot understand why there is so much reluctance to welcome newcomers to our fold. genetically and biologically, this is the best thing that could happen to our tribe.

on the other hand, if migrating to brahminism would mean a reinforcement of an elitist attitude, sense of entitlement and above all an inbuilt or inculcated feeling of superiority, i would let this appeal to procreate, pass. the community, and indirectly the world would be better off without such folks.

priesthood, another monopoly of our community for a long time, is no longer officially, and rightfully so, solely ours to have by inheritance. i have no problem with someone earning it through erudition, but i have had enough of half baked vaadhyars mumbling quite some mumbo jumbo, to be passed of as sanskrit, presiding over key functions in our home.

it may be better off, to let others who are more interested to have such and the erstwhile pseudo priests go after some other profession more in line with their interests.

i do not, repeat do not, advocate ic marriages or deviant children intent on alienating their parents. i could advocate good parenting.

in our culture, the parents could do no wrong. i fundamentally disagree with that. our parents have a lot to learn. a well equipped parent with the norms of today, is best suited to deal with the problems and challenges impacting the child.

very important, it is, to keep the lines of communication open. that is the onus on the parents. most of them, in my opinion, at the very utter of some desires, scream shout and shut off their offspring.

the first reaction is one of anger or indignation.

instead, it should be one of reaffirmation of support and taking it from there on, even though the end result may be not what we liked.

its tough. but who said parenting was easy.

thank you.
 
these cheerleaders of Brahmin persecution are again harping tune of icm they are more concerned to send brahmin girls out of community than declining numbers of brahmin.
the foremost agenda for them is not welfare of brahmin community but more and more icm of brahmin girls. They are left with only work to do in this world and i.e. icm of brahmin girls.
 
these cheerleaders of Brahmin persecution are again harping tune of icm they are more concerned to send brahmin girls out of community than declining numbers of brahmin.
the foremost agenda for them is not welfare of brahmin community but more and more icm of brahmin girls. They are left with only work to do in this world and i.e. icm of brahmin girls.

Sri Hoover,

By promoting icm, our friends here are doing greatest service to the cause of the missionaries.

Unlike in other religions, Hindus have two layers. First is caste and second is religion. Caste is also recognised by the successive Governments which nobody can erase even if they want. Most of the Hindus doesn't want to give up their caste identity for various reasons-may be to avail benefits from the Government or may be for some other reason.

Missionaries are unable to make major breakthrough here because of the first layer resistance- i.e. caste. Caste is very much embedded in every one's life here, missionaries are finding it very difficult to implement their agenda.

Scheduled castes and tribes are the only soft targets but here also Ambedkar embraced Buddhism and has set an example to his own community.

Sanadhana Dharma accepts multiple forms of worship and practices which is again a major obstruction to the missionaries agenda.

The statement of Pope shows that he is highly frustrated about India.

Only by promoting mass intercaste marriages, the caste barrier could be broken. Somehow it is being perceived that Brahmins are the guardians of Hindu religion. So if intercaste marriages are promoted among brahmin community, then they can kill Hinduism once for all and missionaries can implement their agenda at a faster phase.

Our community members who have migrated to western countries and also adopted that country as their home country have no necessity to keep the caste or religious identity. In fact if they go for inter religion, inter race marriages, it may be more beneficial to them in their country as compared to adopting the so called pure brahmin alliance. One of my own cousin migrated to Maryland, USA about four decades back and all his children are married to local Americans.

We wish all those who migrated out of India to carry on their life as they like and at the same time please don't interfere in the affairs of resident Indian Brahmins. Sanadhana Dharma accepts all practices alike and nobody should claim that their practice is superior.

All the best
 
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Shri RVR,

I wish we are able to persuade brahmins with enough resources and wealthy religious mutts, to give some incentive for the third child of brahmin couples to be born in future, so as to take away a part of the high education costs, especially after plus 2. Will it not induce at least some young couples to relax the two children norm? Perhaps many of us can contribute to the mutts towards this purpose. Will it be illegal?

Sri Sangom Sir,

I think it is very difficult to induce people to go for more children. It is purely an individual personal affair.

I also feel that Mutts may not be able to advice on this matter. It is a global phenomena of family planning among educated classes and we have to live with it.

Personally I feel that there is no solution to this problem

All the best
 
those fading old family group photos was what induced me to start this post.

a bit of nostalgia at seeing photos of a stack of brothers, sisters, all gathered under the lens of one camera, black and white, usually three or sometimes 4 rows.

the men invariably, atleast in my photos, are clad in white, veshti all, white shirt, short sleeved or folded long sleeves, plenty of hair pomaded with brylcream or coconut oil. there is invariably a serious look as these men are stacked in some vague seniority.

the matriarch or the patriarch couple are seated in the centre seat of honour, flanked by some immediate older relative. a place is also set aside for the widowed live in relative, head shaved, and sorrow hidden deep under the dead eye stare to the camera.

then there are the dozen or so of children, the little ones in the mother's arms or laps, also seated in the same bench as the matriarch. the ground floor is occupied in the sirusukkal and years later provide a great joy at family gatherings to identify that pig tailed oily haired girl now blossomed to a sophisticated young lass, or that nerdy boy in shorts, now a CEO in Mumbai.

what overwhelms me is the sheer numbers of blood relations and it is in this context that i have a tug in my heart at the passing away of that era of large families.

believe me, i am committed to change, accept it, and treat change to be a inevitable reality of modern life. that too, change at a faster pace, than many a times, i can fathom, as i struggle to keep up with the changes and figure out how to best manage my own life in the ever changing canopy.

today's group photos are in colour, bright and shiny, limited to the father mother son sil daughter dil and one or two grand children. a far cry from one group photo i have, where i counted 100 faces, all nephews and neices of a grand uncle's sathabhishekam. in the 1970s, ie not too far long ago.

it was in this context that i initiated this thread. not with a view to promote ic marriages or berate the young tambram couples for being dinks (double income no kids) or such...

thank you.
 
Number game results in what?

I wonder what is this number game -- of increasing the number of people who will most probably call themselves "brahmins" in mere name...

I shudder to think what will happen if the whole of India decides to increase their numbers for the sake of 'caste' in mere name.

Methinks the government should take steps to decrease the whole of Indian population legally ((like Indira Gandhi who made family planning compulsary) .

Indian government should go the China way where the doctor will also conduct a tubectomy if a caesarean (no consent is taken from patient). And in case of normal delivery i hear they compulsarily conduct tubectomy before the baby is 1 year old (so that the mother will never become pregnant again).

Sangom Sir,
it is quite possible that Muslim population has increased due to extensive conversions (even my father was offered Rs.50,000 to convert to a muslim - please think of poor people living a poverty life, can they deny such an offer). Also all the muslim girls in their 20s and 30s i come across are particular not to have more than 2 kids (they want "quality" of life...which also means to keep the men from straying, bcoz according to them, too many deliveries wud make the man seek pleasure elsewhere - am talking above muslim women who are just above poverty line)..
 
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As can be expected, I have a different take on this. Many moons ago there was one Appaiah -- he seemed a a dried in the wool RSS type, at least to me -- who made the same suggestion, go forth you brahmin boys and girls and multiply.

IMO, this is a very selfish and short-sighted idea, and in the end it may be quite counter-productive. On a broad scale, with the global population having crossed 7 billion and marching on, and the Indian population not expected to stabilize until at least the middle of this century, the last thing any young couple should do in India is to add to the burden of mother earth.

Secondly, even if our boys and girls take this to heart and produce at the rate of 1 every year for several years through their productive years, still Tambrams will only be a minuscule minority in TN with not very much political power. If this is perceived as caste-centric, and if other castes also do the same, what then? In the end, there will just be more brahmin boys and girls competing with each other for the ever more declining piece of the left over pie.

Thirdly, what will we be preserving by this increased population that cannot be done by being more open? Can we not preserve the benign aspects of brahmin culture like the jews do when they marry so often outside religion, the most recent high-profile case being Chelsey Clinton. (I know, I know, this is bound to be taken as uncalled for interference in the private affairs of those who live in India by one who lives in the west with no idea about the ground realities :()

All around, aiming to increase the Brahmin population by encouraging our youngsters to have more kids is a bad idea, all around, methinks.

cheers ...
Dear Shri Nara,

I have some different views on this subject.

Firstly, regarding population increase etc., it may be theoretically correct to say that tambrams should not try to add to the already burgeoning population. But one has to consider the fact that the Muslim population is increasing at a dangerous pace and it is a thumb rule held as correct by many (this has been found true in the case of Mewat district in Haryana, carved out in 2005) that when the Muslim concentration exceeds a certain level in some contiguous areas, there is a strong clamour for a separate district and it has to be conceded if some party has to get electoral support. Against such ominous developments, it is necessary, IMO, for not only the tambrams but the entire hindu population to take heed and and consider their future course of action.

It is true that tambrams or for that matter, even brahmins cannot become any significant percentage in India, even if they hectically resort to a population increase programme on a war footing. But at least there will be some chance of preserving the culture, for facilitating historical research at least, if tambrams or brahmins continue to exist as a community/communities, howsoever small they may be in terms of percentages.

I don't know what you mean when you say that the jews preserve the benign aspects of their culture. AFAIK, intermarriages between jews and non-jews are not accepted by the orthodox jews even now.

Here is an extract from a web page, for the information of our members:

"
[SIZE=-1]"Our grandparents prayed for a melting pot. What they got instead was a meltdown!" - Rabbi Ephraim Buchwald, Founder, National Jewish Outreach Program
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]As the year 2000 fast approaches, North America's Jewish population faces a disturbing set of trends that threatens the viability of Judaism on this continent in the next century -- The J2K (Jewish 2000) Problem. Unlike the persecution that the Jewish people have endured by the hands of others for over 3,000 years, Jews on this continent now face a "silent holocaust" stemming from within their very own communities and their very own households.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Today, of the approximately 6 million Jews in the United States, about 2 out of 3, either do not identify themselves Jewishly or maintain an affiliation with a synagogue. This staggering portrait of American Jewish life is perpetuated by a host of disturbing national trends, including a quickly growing rate of Jewish intermarriage, an extraordinary low birth rate, and a sharp increase in the number of children being raised as non-Jews. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]In the past, Jews rallied together around a core of religious and ethnic traditions, such as synagogue affiliation, lighting of Shabbat candles and giving charity to Jewish institutions. These practices were first learned in the home and were enhanced over a lifetime of familial and communal interaction.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]However today, North America's Jewish population has experienced an internal breakdown of both the family unit and the concept of community, that have unified the Jewish people for so long. As these ancient practices and rituals disappear, so do the number of Jewish people on this continent who consider themselves Jewish. So powerful is this meltdown of Jewish life, that Judaism in America, as we have known it for the last 300 years, will likely cease to exist in the new millennium.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Consider the following statistics*: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Jewish identity is declining sharply: Of 5.6 million Jews, 2 million American Jews live in households identified as non-Jewish
60% of Jews below 40 years of age live in households identified as non-Jewish
20% of Jews over 60 years of age live in households identified as non-Jewish Intermarriage rates are increasing dramatically:
Before 1965, 10% of Jews who married, did so outside the faith.
Since 1985, 52% of Jews who married have done so outside the faith. Children are being raised as non-Jews:
1 million, or 54% of all American Jewish children under the age of 18 are being raised as non-Jews or with no religion...."

JEWISH INTERMARRIAGE STATISTICS


[/SIZE]Chelseah Clinton's example does not enlighten anybody unless we are told how she preserves the benign aspects of - her husband's - jewish religion in her household. Her marriage was inter-faith, not jewish. Pl. see:

On July 31, 2010, Clinton and Marc Mezvinsky were married in an interfaith ceremony at Rhinebeck, New York. The venue for the nuptials was Astor Courts, a 50 acre 1902 Beaux-Arts estate on a bluff overlooking the Hudson River. The estate is presently the home of Hillary Clinton supporter Kathleen Hammer, once a producer at Oxygen Media, and Arthur Seelbinder, a developer and businessman.[43]
Mezvinsky was born December 15, 1977 to former Iowa Democratic congressman Edward MezvinskyPennsylvania Democratic congresswoman Marjorie Margolies-Mezvinsky, and is one of their 11 adopted and biological children. He was raised in the Conservative Jewish tradition.[44]
The Clintons and the Mezvinskys were friends in the 1990s and their children met on a Renaissance Weekend retreat in Hilton Head, SC.[44] They first were reported to be a couple in 2005, and became engaged over Thanksgiving weekend in 2009.[45]
Marc was a Goldman Sachs investment banker, and, at the time of the marriage, an investment banker at 3G Capital Management.[45] The couple live in New York City's Gramercy Park[46]"
and former neighborhood.
Chelsea Clinton - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where is the guarantee that the fate of tambram community will be different from that of jews? As of now, I find it is the non-brahmins' culture that prevails in the few icms I have knowledge of, irrespective of whether it is the boy or the girl who is tambram, for reasons that have to be investigated.

I, therefore, feel that instead of stymying any attempt at increasing the number of tambrams we should exhort at least those couples who are willing, to have 3 children at least.
 
Dear Shri sangom, Greetings!

...I have some different views on this subject.
Different opinions get the juices flowing, make life interesting, give us something to do. I welcome them.

Against such ominous developments, it is necessary, IMO, for not only the tambrams but the entire hindu population to take heed and and consider their future course of action.
Deliberately trying to increase population of in-group as a political strategy is a dangerous thing. Isolating Muslims will only radicalize them even further. I remember reading a report on population by religion, if my memory serves me right, the overall trend has been reasonably stable, with some slight increase in Muslim population, and the Christian population in % terms remaining quite minuscule.

The family size often is directly related to education and economic status. Well educated and middle-class families tend to have lower number of kids. This must be true across all religions. So, making quality education available to all, and economic growth that reaches all sections of the citizenry is a better approach to deal with these problems.

But at least there will be some chance of preserving the culture, for facilitating historical research at least, if tambrams or brahmins continue to exist as a community/communities, howsoever small they may be in terms of percentages.
I am not sure what brahmin culture you are concerned about preserving. For most Tambrams, uniquely Brahmin culture that cuts across all sub-groups constitutes not a whole lot, perhaps the language Samskritam, nitya/naimitika karma, annual pitru ArAdanam, annual upAkarma, kaccam, what else, I can't think of any.

As of today, how many Tambrams truly make an attempt to follow any of these sincerely? Even the name of the everlasting great religion gets repeatedly mangled -- so much for basic knowledge of samskritam.

For most brahmins nitya/naimitika karma is drinking coffee and reading newspaper. upAkarma is one these nominal brahmins religiously perform, this does not take a lot of effort, it is only once a year, it is lot of fun with all the relatives and friends gathered, and above all they get to feel "Brahmin" on that day. The next day, how many do Gayatri japam 1008 times?

For annual pitru ceremony more and more people go to places where these are done on contract basis. Who knows, they may even prepare the food in common and divide them up among all the clients of the day. Many even opt the easy option of just giving certain items like plantain, etc. So, what I am getting at is, preserving Brahmin culture is not on the top of the agenda for most Brahmins, I feel.

I don't know what you mean when you say that the jews preserve the benign aspects of their culture. AFAIK, intermarriages between jews and non-jews are not accepted by the orthodox jews even now.
Jews are among the most diverse and progressive groups. There are ultra-orthodox, and also just orthodox Jews. But the majority of Jews are liberal. The Jewish traditions they preserve are limited to Jewish holidays like Hanukkah and Rosh Hashanah, and Bar Mitsva for the youngsters. They view Jewishness more as ethnicity than religion. KRS may be able to throw more light on this.

I, therefore, feel that instead of stymying any attempt at increasing the number of tambrams we should exhort at least those couples who are willing, to have 3 children at least.
:), let me assure you sir, however much I try, I will never be able to stymie anything people want to do. All I can do is give my perspective on the issue. The action of people will depend on many factors and this may figure as one of the factors only to the extent they themselves feel is important.

Cheers!
 
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I could not but respond to the general comment that tambrams living in the west, to the effect, do not interfere in the affairs of those of us who are in tamil nadu. I would interpret this note as something that is written with me in mind, among others. If not, still I would like to respond.

We are a global community now like it or not and it may be fair to say that for a majority of tambram families, we have someone outside of india. It would also be fair to say, that as of tambram heritage, those of us who participate here, do so out of interest and care. I have participated in this forum for a few years now, and it is the first time I have been told by a fellow participant that certain topics are ‘none of my business’.

No matter what is said, as long as it is laid out with civility and coherent logic, I think, it deserves a place in this forum. You must agree that the NRI posters are not only coherent in their posts, but have no power to ‘force’ anyone to do what they might be perceived to peddle.

Let me, for example take the most touchy topic here – our tambram girls marrying outside of castes.

This is a reality today, and it looks to me that it is going to increase and not decrease. The consequences are huge to the future of the community in india.

Corollary to it, we have a sizeable number of our boys who are unable to find brides within the community.

If we consider this forum as a microcosm of our community, what did we do?

- We had a swayamvaram and I suspect while a few marriages were arranged, compared to the number of boy particpants, the success rate for these was below expectations.

We stopped the swayamvaram and suggested that we try other Brahmin communities. Yes there are 5 crore Brahmins in india, but I do not see any of them lining up marry our 30+ years boys.

Same goes for our girls seeking grooms outside of the caste.

I do not see the trend of any posts advocating ic marriages per se. only that if the girl so prefers, let it be. Not one of NRI posters is pushing ic marriages. I think those who believe that, like to believe it. All is said, is to consider ic marriages as a quick fix to a very grave need. That too, in the absence of any other immediately soluble viable alternatives.

Instead of coming up with solid suggestions and plans of quick action to produce quick results (because the time clock is ticking for these boys), we have a certain folks here calling other members epithets such as – commies, liberals and so on. Name calling, to me is an indication of weak or absence of logic or reasoning. They can continue to do that, but that is going nowhere to solve the issues of our unmarried boys, or our girls seeking NB grooms. Both are ground reality, and while may be related, have two different ways of resolution.

In a forum as mature as this, the least courtesy would be to desist name calling or abusive language. Maybe some people do not like our suggestions. Let it be so. This is just another viewpoint, and atleast it produces solutions.

I echo KRS’ view that our community in india appears to be in a ‘trisangu sorgam’, unwilling to change with the times, and unable to give up the past and finding succour in neither.

In today’s world, the tambram woman is close enough to the tambram male. In many families, thanks to the small size, there is/are only girls. They will and rightfully should not revert to the status of what their mothers were. Even if someone tries to turn back the clock, it will not happen. This is the fundamental truth.

When such truths are openly expressed, I can understand that those that are adversely impacted by it, to put it mildly, disagree. I understand their anguish, but I think these needs to move on, and adapt to the changing community attitudes and profiles.

To ask folks like me ie NRIs to shut up and leave the forum alone and free, is not going to resolve any issues.

The unmarried boys will remain unmarried, and their numbers will increase. The tambram girls will continue to chose grooms outside of caste, as long as our boys are brought up as bookish nerds. Nowadays one needs to be more than that, and many many of our boys excel in their grooming and sports. Panache, style, charm all goes into the sport of finding mates – whether it be love or arranged. Otherwise, these can try to find brides outside – Brahmins from other states, and to date, I have not seen, after so many months any rush to line up for this search.

Even though we live outside of india, we consider ourselves part of the tambram heritage, and I think, it is only proper that we give perspectives. There may not be much audience for that here, but I suspect there is a wider reading public for this forum, who may consider it useful.

If we do not change to fit in with the times, time will force us to change or be annihilated. For our community, how we deal with challenges of changes brought by female education and liberation, at this point, the poll is still open.

Hope this explain.. Thank you.
 
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...We are a global community now like it or not and it may be fair to say that for a majority of tambram families, we have someone outside of india. It would also be fair to say, that as of tambram heritage, those of us who participate here, do so out of interest and care. I have participated in this forum for a few years now, and it is the first time I have been told by a fellow participant that certain topics are ‘none of my business’.
There seems to be a wide gap between the view points of members living abroad and those here in India. First and foremost, your assumption that "for a majority of tambram families, we have someone outside of india" may be technically true; but that someone is not a son or daughter for very many tambram families even now. I don't know whether you will agree. I joined this forum in this May and for quite sometime the active participation was from a few members who had no problems in adopting and adapting to the ways in which most of our overseas members as also those in the metropolises of India, live. It appears to me that roughly, subsequent to the last Naveena Swayamvaram, many members have started taking active interest in the discussions here. I find that they try to project the cares and worries of the less privileged sections of our tambram society. (Honourable members please forgive me, I do not intend any disrespect to any one.) Since I am in a position to know at close quarters how different are the worlds of these two sections, I am able to empathize with the sentiments expressed by them also. To me it appears that this forum which was for the elites, so to say, has now become more broad-based. What passes off as good and enviable guidelines for the former is very much out of the world for the latter.

As an example, let us consider your advice that, "The tambram girls will continue to chose grooms outside of caste, as long as our boys are brought up as bookish nerds. Nowadays one needs to be more than that, and many many of our boys excel in their grooming and sports. Panache, style, charm all goes into the sport of finding mates – whether it be love or arranged.". Are we aware that there are still very many tambram families in, say, Chennai itself who are not fortunate enough to spend what will be required to groom say two sons to the standards cited above? It is easy to give such advice. But empty purses will not be able to achieve most of the things like excellence in sports, grooming of the standard needed to charm a mate. Since education is essential and a boy with purely charm, grooming, panache and the axe-effect, will also fail to trap his mate (except for one-night stands perhaps) the foolish parents spend what little they can on the son's education. The boys probably become more study-oriented in order to secure admission to professional colleges, at lower costs. The girls get free education and even with minimum expenses for make-up, beauty parlours, etc., they have the natural advantage of being the centres of attraction for the boys.

Advising the very many less fortunate members of our community about solutions which will really be out of their ability to implement, is not correct I think. I request you to introspect and find out whether you really had such poorer people in mind while writing your posts or whether you thought that all tambrams are like you and your more well-off relatives back in India.


If we consider this forum as a microcosm of our community, what did we do?

- We had a swayamvaram and I suspect while a few marriages were arranged, compared to the number of boy particpants, the success rate for these was below expectations.

We stopped the swayamvaram and suggested that we try other Brahmin communities. Yes there are 5 crore Brahmins in india, but I do not see any of them lining up marry our 30+ years boys.
It is true that other brahmin communities have not lined-up. but why should we presume that the effort is not worth it? It may bring results in due course. In the meanwhile individual cases will find out their own solutions whether it be icm, not seeing horoscopes, or any such methods.

I do not see the trend of any posts advocating ic marriages per se. only that if the girl so prefers, let it be. Not one of NRI posters is pushing ic marriages. I think those who believe that, like to believe it. All is said, is to consider ic marriages as a quick fix to a very grave need. That too, in the absence of any other immediately soluble viable alternatives.
Here I think a mix-up happened in the thread on "Brahmin girls marrying NB boys". All that was said in a general tone went to mean only about girls getting married ic. There should have been another thread specifically to show that this advice and quick fix was being given for the problem of boys not getting girls; it had been discussed in detail earlier in another thread relating to icm, I think, when I had just joined this forum.

I echo KRS’ view that our community in india appears to be in a ‘trisangu sorgam’, unwilling to change with the times, and unable to give up the past and finding succour in neither.
I do not know what makes you conclude that tambram community is in trisanku swargam. Do you really feel that they are unwilling to change with the times? If so what is it that they should do? Pl. take into account that I am talking here of average lower middle class families with about Rs.10,000/= to Rs. 15,000/= per month income, rent of about 3000/= to Rs. 4000/=, two children and parents, staying in Chennai.

In today’s world, the tambram woman is close enough to the tambram male. In many families, thanks to the small size, there is/are only girls. They will and rightfully should not revert to the status of what their mothers were. Even if someone tries to turn back the clock, it will not happen. This is the fundamental truth.

When such truths are openly expressed, I can understand that those that are adversely impacted by it, to put it mildly, disagree. I understand their anguish, but I think these needs to move on, and adapt to the changing community attitudes and profiles.
Sir, there are many families in which the father did not have a job which ensured a pension or some similar retirement benefit. Still, in the desire to give a good future to the son the parents spent their entire earnings in bringing him up and educating. Their only hope for their old age was the son. But after marriage, the treatment meted out to them was so humiliating and the son was voiceless in front of his wife, that ultimately they end up in an orphanage. There is not one case but many. (FYI, one of the grand daughters of cp is also in one such orphanage.) I would request you to kindly come on some two months' leave to India, visit some of the orphanages and low-cost old age homes, meet with the tambram inmates there and then frame your policies.

The account does not end with this. Of course, this is also not individual case. There are many homes, comparatively richer, where the old parents are relegated to either the top floor or ground floor (depending upon which suits the dil) and they have to live separately, separate cooking, fending for themselves as if they have rented out the other floor. You might say it is all because the mil is bad. But then how can so many mils be so bad? Kindly look at what is going on in the tambram community here. That is why I said there is a wide gulf between the tambram whom you imagine and the real tambrams in flesh and blood.

Sorry, if I have hurt the sentiments of anybody. But I did not know any other way to put these across to our esteemed members who are abroad.

The unmarried boys will remain unmarried, and their numbers will increase. The tambram girls will continue to chose grooms outside of caste, as long as our boys are brought up as bookish nerds. Nowadays one needs to be more than that, and many many of our boys excel in their grooming and sports. Panache, style, charm all goes into the sport of finding mates – whether it be love or arranged. Otherwise, these can try to find brides outside – Brahmins from other states, and to date, I have not seen, after so many months any rush to line up for this search.
This looks like a prophesy. Can it not become false? I will hope so.

Even though we live outside of india, we consider ourselves part of the tambram heritage, and I think, it is only proper that we give perspectives. There may not be much audience for that here, but I suspect there is a wider reading public for this forum, who may consider it useful.
Yes, definitely there are people who are adopting the western style and ideas. they will find this quite stimulating. But then it is better to rename this forum as something like "www. affluentbrahmins.com"

If we do not change to fit in with the times, time will force us to change or be annihilated. For our community, how we deal with challenges of changes brought by female education and liberation, at this point, the poll is still open.

Hope this explain.. Thank you.
With all humility at my command let me say that none of us can assert that such and such a thing will happen. Nature's ways are mysterious and unfathomable. Why not we, as sincere tambrams, hope that a glorious future awaits us despite the many omissions and commissions we may be doing now?
 
1. due to decline to physical labour esp. of women, it is causing abnormal deliveries esp. cesarian section deliveries conseqently stopping further childbirth due to fear of problems.
2. It is interisting, those who accept icm for sake of goodness of the boy are fearing of muslim, why, arent muslim also good hearted. afterall according to your hypothesis, in marriage it is important to see qualities than caste. what difference it makes if brahmin cease to exist and muslim grow in number. afterall your condition may be going to be satisfied i.e. good people roaming on earth. it is your theory that there are good and bad people in every community including brahmin.
 
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