Caste Based Discriminations

[happyhindu]

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Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu asked -



Sow.Happy Hindu, Greetings. I do not have to imagine. I know. I know it many times over. First, he directed his anger at himself, for having born as a Harijan. Then he took a stick and beat about most of the plants nearby until he bacame tired. Then he cried on my shoulders; cried for a long time; தேம்பி தேம்பி அழுதான். I was 8 years old; he was about 17 years old.

What gurus and priests? Last month I was in my village, saw discrimination taking place. (My brother forced me away from there). Caste based discrimination is settled like tar in our society, in our minds. I wish to bring India untouched to your memory, please.

1) What guru, what priest encouraged the discrimination in that tea shop? or forcing them to take of their foot wear and get down from their bicycles? What if they go in a car? would they have to get off the car and push the car until they pass the high caste area? Are these people follow a guru or priest to make those discriminations?

2) Gurus and priests should go to all these places and advice them not to follow discriminations; should visit again and again.

All of us could have done a bit more for our society. Atleast we should do a bit more in the future. It is going to take a very long time before our society come out of caste based atrocities and discriminations. But it is very slowly happening.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

I wholeheartedly agree with you on both points 1 and 2.

The varna system has so far benefitted 3 classes: brahmins, kshatriyas, vaishyas.

The brahmins provide the intellectual justification and spiritual discrimination.

The kshatriyas enforces the discrimination using fear -- and by doing so he takes a share of the spiritual "respect pie".

The vaishyas finance temples -- and by doing so, he gets to add his voice about who can be allowed / disallowed into temples -- this way he gets his share of the "respect cake".

All these 3 classes should take equal blame / responsibility to uplift the downtrodden.

And you have perfectly said that gurus and priests should visit places and ask people not to follow discrimination. To being with, no one can be denied entry into temples based on his birth.

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu said -

To being with, no one can be denied entry into temples based on his birth

Harijans are very uncomfortable to enter temples frequenteed by other upper caste Hindus. They are uncomfortable because, most people stare at them; there is a subtle discrimination in communication, for example, only close ended questions are used and the conversation is always restricted to business at hand (no one talks to them even about the weather); other caste hindus are very careful not to touch them when they deal with them. So, naturally, in some places, Harijans build and maintain their own temple; it is up to the caste hindus to visit those temples.
If the gurus and priests really believe that all the persons are children of Almighty, all the persons are equal in front of God, then, they should make an effort to visit such temples in Dalit colonies and conduct an eloborate pooja/festival for a day; distribute prasdadams to everyone (it need not be cooked by dalits, but should be prepared in the colony); honour few of the leading elders and youngsters of the colony by putting a garland around their necks). Such events if undertaken regularly, would empower Harijans and would bring some dignity to them.
(Gee! The more I look at this proposal, the more I like it! May be I should talk to someone in my village and try to make it happen).

All these 3 classes should take equal blame / responsibility to uplift the downtrodden

It is very nice to see your using the word 'downtrodden'. I agree with you about the responsibility. I may not agree with you about the blame part. I don't like to be blamed for other's fault and other's mistakes; when a blame game starts I go on the defense mode, start fighting tooth and claw to disown any blame, I don't expect anything less for others too. But as human being, it is our responsibility to help as many downtrodden as possible to come up in life. I don't know what class I belong to, but I shall help as much as possible.

We don't have Kshatriyas/kings per se. We have governments. If the Government is serious about eradicating caste, then it should alter the reservation system; it should not be caste based. Government should discourage the use of caste name at every opportunity. But today, we have to fill the caste name, starting from birth certificate up to death certificte and everything in between. This is but sheer mockery.

I don't know how much co-operation we would get from the priests for social reformation. Anyone clinging on to the hierarchy of 'birth based varna/caste system' would find it hard to accept such reforms.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

If the gurus and priests really believe that all the persons are children of Almighty, all the persons are equal in front of God, then, they should make an effort to visit such temples in Dalit colonies and conduct an eloborate pooja/festival for a day; distribute prasdadams to everyone (it need not be cooked by dalits, but should be prepared in the colony); honour few of the leading elders and youngsters of the colony by putting a garland around their necks). Such events if undertaken regularly, would empower Harijans and would bring some dignity to them.
(Gee! The more I look at this proposal, the more I like it! May be I should talk to someone in my village and try to make it happen).

Yes Raghy, its a wonderful suggestion. Wud be great if you can start this off in your village.

It is very interesting to see your using the word 'downtrodden'. I agree with you about the responsibility. I may not agree with you about the blame part. I don't like to be blamed for other's fault and other's mistakes; when a blame game starts I go on the defense mode, start fighting tooth and claw to disown any blame, I don't expect anything less for others too. But as human being, it is our responsibility to help as many downtrodden as possible to come up in life. I don't know what class I belong to, but I shall help as much as possible.

By downtrodden i meant the poor of all castes. Since there are more poor in the dalit groups, anyways one wud be reaching out to the dalits more i suppose..

I totally agree with you on the blame part (am sorry, i should have been clear in my previous post). By blame i meant everyone shd take up the onus to reach out atleast a wee bit..

We don't have Kshatriyas/kings per se. We have governments. If the Government is serious about eradicating caste, then it should alter the reservation system; it should not be caste based. Government should discourage the use of caste name at every opportunity. But today, we have to fill the caste name, starting from birth certificate up to death certificte and everything in between. This is but sheer mockery.

True, the reservations system needs to be modified.

I know of NB folks, very poor, who think it is below their dignity to ask for ST status.

Therefore on my part, i gathered supporting evidence from genetic studies to show that i must have shared the same parentage with some adivasi groups long back (perhaps a little more than 72 generations ago).

Also wrt customs, i was reading the works of kosambi regarding similarities (in customs) b/w tribals and caste hindus (plz note, am not interested in kosambi's political leanings, i restrict myself to the similarities he brought out wrt customs, which i consider fascinating). If the government wants to talk about caste (esp social backwardness), let them take such things (customs) also into consideration.

Actually i was thinking, if Shri RVR goes to any court to legally change his caste (occupation) as per his current one, i cud provide supporting evidence thru such stuff (as above) (and also using Shri RVR's possible genetic matches with adivasis). I suppose its high time, people force the government to take a very-hard look at its caste stance....

Regards.

 

[hoover]

I think
how people did physical violance with untouchables in past. it is a mystery.

 

[hoover]

we must see what assyrian, mongol,turks, Roman did with their victim as victor.
we will have to see the contmporary circumstances. we cannot judge that time with todays notions of human rights.
1. aryans were much humane with their enemy. even dalits are gifted land rights. and a place in social order instead of general massycre and other cruel practices.
2. when there was no central rule and social calm it is natural instinct to oppress weak . all did that even among dalits some castes were oppressed by other powerful one of them.
3. It cannot be denyed that those who got oppressed had opportunity to organise resistance as then there were lot of jungle and uninhabited areas which can satisfy all need if some one really want to resist or run away from tyranny. atleast when foreigners arrived. opressed did not do that. because though there was discrminaton. society was still providing material needs to live.
4. in todays world there is differnt status due to large number of differnt consumar items. in past it wasnt like that. though social staus was different, material conditions were not much differnt. in days of Krishna there were Sudamas who was brahmin but vary poor.
5. some among us tell exaggerated stories of discrmination to westerners. please trac their accout of that. even upto 1965 there were brutal murders of african americans due to hatred and local police do the wrapping up job so FBI had to inquest and it was a regular thing. what spanish and porugeues did with Incas and indian populations of south america is vary saddening and horrible equally horrible is persecution of Jews. persecution of Armenians by turks etc.etc. and lot other stories india was much peaceful, human and lawful in contemporary scenario.
What happening in India is sowing seeds for another such hatered. all policies of reservations are deeply routed in the concept of revenge. a reverse discrimination. past is full of blood. no community behave virtuously with other. If speaking only about brahmin. Brahmin were just learned slaves of powerholders. though they were learend and having respected post. they also were underpriviledged in large number. tied by decree of the power holders. A brahmin has to die due to hunger but he was not allowed job of sudra. It can be said proudly that their is least blood on hands of brahmin in the whole world.

 

[kunjuppu]

hoover,

i am amazed at some of the things you attribute to aryans. these folks, are images of distant past. and perhaps have nothing to do with the caste and religion based india of today.

historically, the victors in a war, have been merciless. the aryans, if they existed, i would imagined behaved the same. for your information, the nadars of deep south tamil nadu, claim that they are the folks who founded the indus valley civilization and were drove south by invaders. nadars means 'of the land - naadu'. even the sindhu cow, so cherished by tamils, is nadar's gift to the tamil people.

once again, we should treat all this with a grain of salt and focus on today. to deny today, and to seek solace in the distant past, will not change one iota of today's challenges.

i disagree with almost all that you imagine of the past, but i think we are better focussing our energy on today and tomorrow than an imagined glorious past with no historical documents or proofs.

thank you.

 

[hoover]

this is commen sentiment I hear every hour on every news chanell today, 'let forget past , let see today and future'. Is it that simple?. After 60 years of independance the number of so called underpriviledged is increasing surprisingly and it is mentioned by honerable supreme court also. Only dalits were true claimants of the reservations and not any other caste and even for dalits it is enough now. but now this is not affirnative policy. It is revenge. a revenge for sin not committed and against only those who are least to blame. It is jungle law where when resources shrink like water only powerful survive on flesh of weak. even today those who habitually bash Brahmin, do not have courage to say a single word about those powerful nb communitis. it is hypocracy. What a brahmin should tell to his children?. Is it 'accept all injustice against you because hypothetically your 4/5 generations ago you ancesters done something wrong'. Is he should say that 'your only duty is now to breed girls, educate them and give it to nb as bride'. In this century it is totally unacceptable that some ethnic groups having prefferd status. and others deprived of opportunity. we may say that we are indians by origin. It is not concurrent with what genetics and science say . it is not even acceptable to nb. I read adds in mumbai painted on walls saying Brahman videshi hai baki sab mulnivasi means Brahmin are foreigners and all others are native. Yes, if there are equal rights i will not be a castist but when it is clearly percieved that some thing wrong is happening with me and my community only due to our ethnic origin and birth I have a just right to do whatever to settle the score.
I find no point in accepting, when an IAS officers boy gets seat as an OBC and at the same time boy of brahmin priest in small villege is loosing same. second the unjust claimants of reservations taking brahmin girls in their class as bonus of reservation policy. It is injustice not only that it is passive genocide of brahmin.
Reservations on basis of cast must stop. unless this state is cetainly going to detorioraton, collapse of administration and anarchy.
some people easily say that brahmins were advocate o discrimination etc. etc. those who listen their advocates werent imbesile. I agian have to say brhmin were just learnd slave puppets in hands of the powerholders. they had to say whatever their masters dictate.
a famous political scientist Mr. Herold Laski have said that for survival and smooth running of a state it is a condition that there should not exist a priviladged class or a class with special constitutional powers.

 

[Nara]

... What a brahmin should tell to his children?. Is it 'accept all injustice against you because hypothetically your 4/5 generations ago you ancesters done something wrong'.

Tell them there is nothing called jAti, it is all made up construct, tell them to love everyone and treat everyone equally. Tell them to be whatever they want to be. Tell them to enjoy life. There is so much to tell, why tell they are Brahmins!!!

 

[sangom]

Shri Hoover,

...second the unjust claimants of reservations taking brahmin girls in their class as bonus of reservation policy.

I do not think so far the OBC boys have forcibly carried away brahmin girls and married them. It is as much a trend among brahmin girls to love NB boys and insist on getting married to them. This topic has been discussed in another thread.

Regarding reservations, brahmins as a small percentage of the total population of this country and that too widely dispersed all over, do not have any political weightage. We should be well aware of this in the first instance.

Secondly, in so far as TN is concerned, the TBs had cornered almost all government jobs at one stage about 100 years ago. That, coupled with a certain dismissive attitude of the brahmin leaders then, even towards the other FCs, alienated the latter, who then formed the Justice Party, won the elections to the Provincial Government and issued the (first) Communal GO of 1927 under which compartmental reservation was made for various communities. Hence, even if we dismiss all talk of Manu, Dharmasastras, etc., the fact remains that when an opportunity came their way, about 100 years or so, the brahmins of Tamil Nadu (the learned slave puppets, according to you) were so avaricious as to corner all benefits for themselves (thus instigating the FCs, who were the powerholders, in your words) without having the foresight to understand the meaning of the saying "union is strength". So, the bitter truth is that the "learned slave puppets", in their folly, became audacious enough to antagonize the "power holders" which recoiled on the "slave puppets" and the 'recoil effect' is still being felt.

How I wish the brahmin leaders of those days, who were responsible for this sorry impasse, had the humility and the realism to know that they, after all, were a minority, and the foresight to judge that they will be looked down upon by their own people, a century later, as mere "slave puppets" and not as very powerful elites as they thought themselves to be, probably!

 

[rcscwc]

The following incident happened in the heart of Chennai city less than a KM from the state headquarters in broad daylight.

Tribals denied entry into cinema - Chennai - City - The Times of India

People who don't want to give even cinema tickets to scheduled tribes in the balcony are going to lift them to greater heights in the social status. Inspite of a lawyer fighting for the Scheduled Tribes, the police is not willing to act. This is happening under dravidian rule.

All the best

Are the cenema owners checking for castes? Seems to be a pile of BS.

Solution: Reserve seats in cinemas on basis of castes.

 

[hoover]

<removed>

please understand there are many members who might find this offensive and downright insulting. Please take into account the sentiments of other members and refrain from posting such comments henceforth.

Take this as a warning or take it as a request from one member to another - leave the choice to you.

Regards
Praveen

 

[hoover]

if i have crossed, my opology, once agains extremely sorry.

 

[rcscwc]

Tell them there is nothing called jAti, it is all made up construct, tell them to love everyone and treat everyone equally. Tell them to be whatever they want to be. Tell them to enjoy life. There is so much to tell, why tell they are Brahmins!!!

i am with you. Start by abolishing reservations, they perpetuate castes.

 

[Nara]

i am with you. Start by abolishing reservations, they perpetuate castes.

This is a kind of standard response I hear from a lot of people when I argue that Brahmins must cast aside their caste identity, and it goes something like this -- even if we do, the government labels us as Brahmins. IMO, this is a completely disingenuous argument. It is hard for me to agree that the reason brahmins cling on to their caste is because government is labeling them as brahmins. Most TBs, who have left India for good, are unwilling to shed their Brahmin identity, why? They try to raise their children born outside India, and therefore not labeled by the Indian government in any way, as Brahmins.

The intended purpose of caste-based reservation system is uplift of the long oppressed. Whether this is a good idea or not could be debated, and we have debated this until at least all the old-timers are exhausted. But, nobody can seriously argue that the reason Brahmins refuse to go for icm, the only sure sign of ignoring jAti, is because of the reservation policy of the Indian government.

 

[sangom]

This is a kind of standard response I hear from a lot of people when I argue that Brahmins must cast aside their caste identity, and it goes something like this -- even if we do, the government labels us as Brahmins. IMO, this is a completely disingenuous argument. It is hard for me to agree that the reason brahmins cling on to their caste is because government is labeling them as brahmins. Most TBs, who have left India for good, are unwilling to shed their Brahmin identity, why? They try to raise their children born outside India, and therefore not labeled by the Indian government in any way, as Brahmins.

The intended purpose of caste-based reservation system is uplift of the long oppressed. Whether this is a good idea or not could be debated, and we have debated this until at least all the old-timers are exhausted. But, nobody can seriously argue that the reason Brahmins refuse to go for icm, the only sure sign of ignoring jAti, is because of the reservation policy of the Indian government.

Shri Nara,

In one sense what you say is true, I agree. Today, there is hardly any discrimination outside our homes in regard to any caste (whether SC, ST or Dalits). But beyond this if the caste difference or caste feeling has to reduce icm is probably the only effective means IMO. As most of the contributors here are past the age for implementing this in their lives, I think even those who would welcome icm (like Shri Raghy or myself) can at best allow our chilldren to marry whomever they choose and accept it wholeheartedly. Only more and more icms will bring about some amount of reduction in the caste identity and caste separateness. I think it will be a good idea to request GOI for freedom to parents to register their children born of icms to be registered without any reference to caste and only religion, if that is necessary. Will we find enough support?

 

[hoover]

only 5% brahmin doing so will not make any difference it will only diintegrate brahmin and rise in injustice against them. mejority of population of all caste wants to mentain their identity. only brahmin talk about caste barrier breaking bussiness. and what difference it makes if there is no caste. only miscreants and bad people unite. not good hearted and gentleman. Caste is a big obstacle in uniting of miscreants. 1,2 children not mentioning their caste in class of 60 is not going to make difference only it will end their own identiy and ultimately in chirstianity or other religion.

 

[Nara]

.... I think it will be a good idea to request GOI for freedom to parents to register their children born of icms to be registered without any reference to caste and only religion, if that is necessary. Will we find enough support?

Dear Shri Sangom, that will be a worthy effort, to petition the GOI to have caste identification optional, i.e. those who are eligible and wish to avail of affirmative action programs can get caste at birth verification letter or something like that.

Cheers!

 

[rcscwc]

This is a kind of standard response I hear from a lot of people when I argue that Brahmins must cast aside their caste identity, and it goes something like this -- even if we do, the government labels us as Brahmins. IMO, this is a completely disingenuous argument. It is hard for me to agree that the reason brahmins cling on to their caste is because government is labeling them as brahmins. Most TBs, who have left India for good, are unwilling to shed their Brahmin identity, why? They try to raise their children born outside India, and therefore not labeled by the Indian government in any way, as Brahmins.

The intended purpose of caste-based reservation system is uplift of the long oppressed. Whether this is a good idea or not could be debated, and we have debated this until at least all the old-timers are exhausted. But, nobody can seriously argue that the reason Brahmins refuse to go for icm, the only sure sign of ignoring jAti, is because of the reservation policy of the Indian government.

What do the brahmins gain by accepting that they are brahmins? Nothing but ridicule and denial of seats in education and govt jobs. And btw, Brahmins do not produce a caste certificate too, they have none issued by the govt. If they shed their brahmin ID, would they get the seats which are denied to them, for not being of the "right" castes? Not at all.

If castes are to be ignored, deservation is the only way out. ICM are not an important issue. ICM is opposed not only by brahmins but by all castes.

By all means give a leg up to certain castes. But need it be the cost of the meritorius of not of those castes?

If TBs have left India, then it is because of denial of opportunities and search for a place where their merit, not caste certificate, is scutinised. But that is true of all brahmins, not only tamilians.

Btw, why not press USA to give caste reservations in visas? Or why not enforce reservations in issuing passports? Best of all, why not issue them caste certicates and tax them punitively?

 

[hoover]

shri rcscwc,
para 4 is correct.
I want to inform here that in some states promotion is given to sc/st for foreign education. in Maharashtra the govt. bears total expense of living, fees , travel of candidates of the said catagory going to study abroad.

 

[hoover]

in civil services exam the main exam to select the beurocrats.
1. age limits are different for different catagories even when 50 seats are reserved for various catagories.
2. Number of attemts permited are different. for open It is 4, for OBC it is 7 and for sc st it is no limit. even when 50% seats are reserved.
3. This exam is difficult to pass in 2 attemts. so many of open catagory candidates try and fail. on the other hand you will find a large no. of OBC candidates are passing these exams in 5,6,7 th attempt. Is this not simply injustice.
4. when an serving IPS, IRS officers attempts for IAS; he does not attempts as an IPS or IRS, but as an sc, st, obc.
5. Creamy layer : the limit for non creamy layer is 450000 rupees p.a. i.e. 37000 per month i.e. salary of well earning person including IAS, IPS.
6. A large number of castes who have mejoriy in small geographical area and so vary priviledged in those areas have enterd in those reserve catagories.
7. A large no. of worrier castes have aquired status of OBC by way of political lobbing.
8. there is a large no. of people serving with fake of fraudulantly obtained caste certificates.
so where is equality and justice and equal opportunity guaranteed in pramble of constitution.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

anyways the caste would be irrelevant in coming centuries taking account of inter marriages that are taking place in india and the world and the steps that the govt is taking in this direction is well appreciated. every one is equal. god gives equal mind to all. its all abt upbringing and valarpu. in north india there r tamil christians who were previously dalit hindus who hold high posts coz of education. nobody is civilised or uncivilised by birth. its all in the mind. why a guy who is a dalit hindu doesnt succeed and that same guy when converts to christanity florishes by climbing up the ladders. this is bcoz of the self depreciating tendency among them. they should live in the present and do away with this ancient old thinking which is irrelevent in the present day world characterised by freedom, focus on humane principles and equality. the importance of education among the so called low caste, dalits, scheduled castes, tribals, non brahmins, must be emphasised. they should try to get the jobs, seats without the reservation. if we as brahmins continue to isolate the nonbrahs they will naturally convert then that itself will weaken the hinduism. we say we do a lot of yeomen service but as geeta says do but do without expecting anything in return. we cant say we will give free food but u should never revolt and stay where u r. well i know in present times this mindset is only there in the fellow minority brahs who r economically well off but morally worse off but hope that will change with the passage of time. our actions should match our words. there should be no hyphocracy. nandrigal. following is a very nyc hindi poem which gives a good msg of humanity

मंदिर मस्जिद गुरूद्वारे बनाये, बाँट दिया भगवान् को, धरती बांटी सागर बांटे, ना बांटो इंसान को.

u(referring to mankind) made mosques, temples and gurudwaras,
thus divided the lord,
divided the land, divided the oceans,
now don't divide the humankind,

यार घर से मंदिर है बहुत दूर, चलो किसी रोते हुए बच्चे को हँसा दें. चलो किसी भूखे बच्चे को खाना खिला दें.
boss the temple is very far away from home, let me make any crying kid smile, let me feed any starving kind some food.

wat a nyc msgs

"Caste is a notion, it is a state of the mind. The destruction of Caste does not therefore mean the destruction of a physical barrier. It means a notional change."
-Bharat Ratna Dr.B.R. Ambedkar
"It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees"
-Zapata

This ugly caste system is hindering the development of our great indian nation. Wake up india. abhi nahi toh kabhi nahin.(its now or never)

 

[rcscwc]

shri rcscwc,
para 4 is correct.
I want to inform here that in some states promotion is given to sc/st for foreign education. in Maharashtra the govt. bears total expense of living, fees , travel of candidates of the said catagory going to study abroad.

That is giving them a support. Welcome to it.

BUT do the foreign universities give them admissions on the basis of caste or merit?

 

[rcscwc]

Shri Nara,

In one sense what you say is true, I agree. Today, there is hardly any discrimination outside our homes in regard to any caste (whether SC, ST or Dalits).

Then what is your grouse??

But beyond this if the caste difference or caste feeling has to reduce icm is probably the only effective means IMO.

That is an intrusive demand, sir. How shall you ensure ICM. By a law I suppose.

 

[sangom]

Shri Nara,

In one sense what you say is true, I agree. Today, there is hardly any discrimination outside our homes in regard to any caste (whether SC, ST or Dalits).

Then what is your grouse??

It is not out of grouse but a desire for betterment of our country.

But beyond this if the caste difference or caste feeling has to reduce icm is probably the only effective means IMO.

That is an intrusive demand, sir. How shall you ensure ICM. By a law I suppose.

There is nothing intrusive in it, it is only an opinion and an opinion cannot be intrusive. It is not necessary to to have an enactment. Our girls will do that anyway when they get more and more educated, self- supportive and bold enough to withstand the opposition from the hardliners.

 

[rcscwc]

Originally Posted by rcscwc

Shri Nara,

In one sense what you say is true, I agree. Today, there is hardly any discrimination outside our homes in regard to any caste (whether SC, ST or Dalits).

Then what is your grouse??

It is not out of grouse but a desire for betterment of our country.

I sure fail to see how the country would be taken if I decide whom to socialise or not.

But beyond this if the caste difference or caste feeling has to reduce icm is probably the only effective means IMO.

That is an intrusive demand, sir. How shall you ensure ICM. By a law I suppose.

There is nothing intrusive in it, it is only an opinion and an opinion cannot be intrusive. It is not necessary to to have an enactment. Our girls will do that anyway when they get more and more educated, self- supportive and bold enough to withstand the opposition from the hardliners.

On the other hand a member here opined that ICM is the best way to finish Brahmins as a community. I hope you are not of that school.



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