Caste Based Discriminations

[suraju06]

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Mr. Nara said:"I was not there, but from your account I gather you were in the middle of it. I defer to your personal experience. Many innocents from all sides suffered and that must be condemned. If the incident about the wife absconding is true then of course it is a terrible thing to happen."

This is in the context of the 1969 incident of a Mrs. Raval going missing in the curfew bound ahmedabad when it was in the grip of Hindu-Muslim communal riots. Even when condemning the incidents, the temptation to be equivocal by saying "many innocents from all sides suffered" is evident. Who is going to say that muslims were the only culprits or that Hindus rioting were all angels. If I am wrong I will stand corrected.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Suraju,

As you rightly said, the quote was from 'The Hindu' to provide distraction; Sri.Nara, instead of criticising such distractions, produces that to provide MK with a good image. Still it is distraction. Ironically, Sri.Nara produced it in the same message he accused Sri.RVR of producing distractions.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

sangom,

i am not sure how i came as being 'heartless' re the case of mrs. raval.

the fact that she went out alone probably in a riot infested locality, in the midst of a riot, all by herself, to me, is an open invitation to danger. having pointed that out, is that sound 'heartless'?

if so, i apologize. i did not intend to sound that way. but then, evern the most carefully composed prose can be misconstrued. mea culpa.

i do sympathize with the ravals. i suspect there is more to the story than what was let out. is there any possibility, that mrs. raval was unhappy in her home, and took upon this opportunity to run away. you will have to admit, that when 'disappearances' occur during riots, these are usually consigned as 'missing believed dead'.

no matter what, the thought of such happening in my family, is enough, to send shivers up my spine.

hope the raval family, particularly the children, recovered and went on to have a normal life. God Bless.

 

[sangom]

sangom,

i am not sure how i came as being 'heartless' re the case of mrs. raval.

the fact that she went out alone probably in a riot infested locality, in the midst of a riot, all by herself, to me, is an open invitation to danger. having pointed that out, is that sound 'heartless'?

if so, i apologize. i did not intend to sound that way. but then, evern the most carefully composed prose can be misconstrued. mea culpa.

i do sympathize with the ravals. i suspect there is more to the story than what was let out. is there any possibility, that mrs. raval was unhappy in her home, and took upon this opportunity to run away. you will have to admit, that when 'disappearances' occur during riots, these are usually consigned as 'missing believed dead'.

no matter what, the thought of such happening in my family, is enough, to send shivers up my spine.

hope the raval family, particularly the children, recovered and went on to have a normal life. God Bless.

Dear Kunjuppu,

From my limited experience of two years in Ahmedabad, I found that the worst riots (hindu-muslim) could ensue from the most insignificant of causes and as I said, it can mean an instantaneous conflagration. The ways of living of the lower middle class there would make them go to a vegetable market some distance away or some store nearby but any time things can explode and one will not know what will happen. I do not know whether the Rawals were rich, but if they were not, the wife could have gone to buy vegetable, basan or oil etc., in a store but could have met with some unhappy end. Having seen this extreme, in the next few days things quieten and one can find college girls going in batches in their scooters at the middle of the night (Yes, I was astounded when I found this while returning home from the rly. station once with a relative at around 12.15 midnight - the train was very late) through rather lonely areas of the city. There is drug, gambling, etc., among youngsters and the more well-off children reportedly used to lose (sixteen years ago)even tens of thousands of rupees in one night!!

It is a peculiar co-existence there and you have to see to believe it.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

I find that the response of Mr.SANGOM is more balanced in this thread.
I was in AHMEDABAD CITY from the last week of August,1969 to first week of
May,1970.The riots broke out in the month of September,1969 when I was quite new to the city.I should have been a victim of the riots on the initial day itself.
I have wriiten about this incident in another website'iyer123.yahoogroups on 12th July,2010.I will take the help of a person well versed in computer operation and reproduce the same in this thread.
Mr.RAWAL was working as a telegraphist in Ahmedabad and joined our newly set up office (TELECO ACCOUNTS) as assitant.I noticed that he was a calm and peaceful person.I heard from other staff that he was having a happy married life and belonged to a lower middle class family.I was also told by other staff members that such incidents do occur during riots and I am confident that Mr.Rawal's case is not an isolate incident as assumed by some members.
My only grievance is all Nationa newspapers,TV channels discuss threadbare the riots that took place in 2002 and they do not even mention that a similar riot took place in the year 1969 under CONGRESS party rule.
I wish to clarify that I do not follow any ideology either of RSS, BJP, , CONGRESS, COMMUNISTS etc.I can independantly think for myself and take a view.
I may like to share a news which I read in "DINAMALAR'sometime back.
There is a village called "CHANDAN VILLAGE" in AGRA district.ALL the residents are related.Some 750 years before a few families converted as Muslims but till today they continue to be blood relations and marriage takes place between hindus and muslims.Perfect peace prevails in the village among all residents.Outsiders who try to create disunity among the two religious groups have not succeded in their attempts so far.

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara.

My replies are in blue.

Dear RVR sir, greetings!


My offer still stands. I am willing to even up the ante, I will donate Rs. 2,500 for each icm prospect for whom you give special publicity.

I have a counter offer to make. If any of the reformers here (including his/her close relatives) belonging to upper castes is willing to marry a bride or bride groom belonging to a `Narikurava' community member, I shall organise to fund the entire marriage expenses. I am sure our community members belonging to conservative group here will liberally donate to perform the marriage in a decent manner.


Now you are being fictitious. I suppose you are implying I am a hypocrite, waxing eloquent for Dalit cause, but refusing to take concrete action when an opportunity arises. If this is your point, I have no problem, I can live with it. Please understand what I am saying, I am not saying you are right, or, I am a hypocrite. All I am saying is I have no problem if you think that.

Next, let us assume you are correct and I am indeed a hypocrite. In what way would that make any difference to the validity of the arguments I am presenting on caste-based reservation system. This is a classic example of what is called ad hominem logical fallacy. Instead of arguing the point, you are painting me as a hypocrite.

For your information, Narikurava community is not listed in Scheduled Tribes and is clubbed with Backward classes in Tamilnadu. They are suppose to be much higher than Most Backward Communities like Vanniars, Thevars etc.

Focus of SC/ST is not given to Narikuravas. 7 Aug 2010

Narikurava - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You seems to be happy with the present reservation system where a community which is suppose to be listed in Scheduled Tribes is classified much above Most Backward classes under Dravidian rule in Tamilnadu. Is this social justice?
Further, there is no case, the matter got resolved, they got the tickets they wanted -- they had the choice of Rs. 85 ticket also. There is no case, but what Devi Theater folks did was stupid and discriminatory. Whether it was caste based discrimination or not, I don't know. My feeling is, it was probably due to perceived uncleanliness and how other patrons of the theater may feel.

You seems to be very happy that Narikuravas were forced to wait for more than three hours to watch the next show at the lowest class of Rs.10. But for the intervention of the Lawyer and the media, the Theatre would not have allowed them to watch the movie. I think all the cinema theatres hereinafter should display a board as per your suggestion - `Everybody should come clean after taking bath to watch the movies' `ஸ்நானம் செய்துவிட்டு சினிமா பார்க்க வரவும்'

Finally, all this is just distraction. I was discussing caste-based reservation, whether it is good idea or not, does it benefit the intended groups, etc. Now, you have successfully distracted me from that discussion into a one about a stupid cinema theater employee.

I have told much earlier that personally I have no problem with the reservations. Our community in Tamilnadu has learnt to live with the 69 percent reservation for more than four decades. I have not talked about reservations in this thread and you are only confusing me.


First, I don't, and don't wish to, hold a brief for MK.

His own personal record of corruption not withstanding, the Dravidian rule has been a good one for Tamil Nadu. Tamil Nadu ranks quite well compared to many other states.

If you are happy with more than 26 percent of the Tamilians as illiterates, then there is no point in arguing further. Nearby Kerala and Pondicherry which were part of Chola, Chera, Pandia rule have achieved 100 percent literacy where as Tamilnadu is still lagging behind at less than 74 percent literacy. Dravidian Governments are ruling here for more than four decades.

Also, you are not presenting the whole story. You want to highlight only those parts that in your opinion shows hypocrisy on the part of the Dravidian politicians. That is fine, I have no interest in that argument, the Dravidian politicians can defend themselves.

To the best of my knowledge, I have not heard any incident similar to Kizhavenmani has occurred either in Kerala and/or Pondicherry. Still caste Hindus are indulging in violence against daliths and if you are happy with it, it is ok.

All I want to do is to point out a piece of the story you did not present here, and that is, it seems the government has given land and educational opportunities to these traveling vendors of handicraft trinkets. Here is what tp://www.hindu.com/2010/08/09/stories/2010080958070200.htm"]The Hindu says about this:

"The government had also given them free patta for their land. Most of the children in the family are pursuing education in their hometown."
​

That is not too bad for the MK government, is it?
[/COLOR]
I think you have belief that all the discrimination committed against Narikuravas and others could be washed away by offering free land patta and other freebies.

Long back Catholics were selling `tickets for sins'. If some body commits a sin, he can wash the same by buying tickets from Catholic Church. I think you are also adopting the same principle that by issuing free land patta, the discimination could be corrected. Good. Keep it up.

Dear RVR sir, I don't have an agenda, I am just saying what I think is right, just as you are doing. I have no problem in general with you except the one time I think you hit below the belt which you refuse to admit. But that is not a big deal any more and if I don't get reminded of it constantly I will soon even forget it.

We are only discussing the caste discrimination issue and I don't think we are trying hit below belt.



cheers!

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

To the best of my knowledge, I have not heard any incident similar to Kizhavenmani has occurred either in Kerala and/or Pondicherry. Still caste Hindus are indulging in violence against daliths and if you are happy with it, it is ok.

Please travel a bit up north. You can find Kizhavenmani type of incidents happening in Bihar even today. Its not necessary to keep burning down each other. Mental violence and physical violence against dalits still exists. Ranvir Sena is known to have shot down dalits. Why, even in Kerala, lower caste ppl in the past were not allowed to cover their upper torso in front of upper caste people or so i hear.

In Kizhavenmani, you had uppercaste foxes who pit dalits against one another. They did not get their hands dirty, they only stood aside and watched them burning down each other.

In nothindia too you can find non-brahmin FCs (the uppercaste foxes) who do such things. But where did they get their ideology of superiority by birth. Where did they get their ideology that a man's occupation must be enforced upon him based on his father's occupation.

Sorry Shri RVR, no matter what you say. Those who created and uphold the shastras till date must be accountable.

Today brahmins want reservations. Its like wanting the cake and eating it too. They want to remain 'brahmin' (superior by birth) plus they want the privilege to study. Going by what i understand of 'dalit' mentality, this sir, imo, won't work (the 'dalits' will not agree).

Shri Nara is out on work and may not be able to reply until about a week.

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir, Greetings!

I have a counter offer to make. If any of the reformers here (including his/her close relatives) belonging to upper castes is willing to marry a bride or bride groom belonging to a `Narikurava' community member, I shall organise to fund the entire marriage expenses. I am sure our community members belonging to conservative group here will liberally donate to perform the marriage in a decent manner.

This is a very good suggestion. I will join with you and provide even further support as needed. From your side, may I request you to solicit and list some eligible candidates from their ranks in the next swayamvaram?

With regard to your offer to fund marriage expenses, thank you for your generous offer. I am already married to a lovely person and have no wish to jeopardize my marriage by considering bigamy. My two children are already married or committed, both to "mlechchas" who are, according to the Brahminism of Brahminists, socially even lower then these unfortunate people who are referred to as "nari kuravas".

There is nothing new for me to address in the rest of your note, so yours shall be the last words in this matter between the two of us.

Thank you....

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Prof Nara,

My offer is meant for the reformers in this forum who are willing for `intercaste marriages' or for those who are propagating intercaste marriages. If any of them are willing, please inform through this forum or through personal messages to me so that I shall try to organise a swayamvaram for them exclusively with participation from Narikurava community members.

It have nothing to do with the `Naveenaswayamvarams' being conducted right now exclusively for brahmins of all sects.

All the best

Dear RVR sir, Greetings!


This is a very good suggestion. I will join with you and provide even further support as needed. From your side, may I request you to solicit and list some eligible candidates from their ranks in the next swayamvaram?

With regard to your offer to fund marriage expenses, thank you for your generous offer. I am already married to a lovely person and have no wish to jeopardize my marriage by considering bigamy. My two children are already married or committed, both to "mlechchas" who are, according to the Brahminism of Brahminists, socially even lower then these unfortunate people who are referred to as "nari kuravas".

There is nothing new for me to address in the rest of your note, so yours shall be the last words in this matter between the two of us.

Thank you....

Cheers!

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

In continuation of my post no55 recorded yesterday,I reproduce below the copy of my Mail to "iyer123-yahoo groups on 12th July,2010.

[FONT=&quot][Iyer123] COMMUNAL RIOTS IN GUJARAT. 2002 and 1969 [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Mon, 12 July, 2010 10:28:39 AM[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]From:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]krishnamurthy <[email protected]>

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Add to Contacts[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]To:[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot][email protected][/FONT]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]​

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dear Sir,
I was in AHMEDABAD City from the last week of August,1969 till end of
April,1970.I was transferred from NAGPUR to AHMEDABAD to start a new office from 1st September,1969.Two friends from my office who were my colleagues and our immediate boss from Hyderabad were all staying in a P&T quarter (near SHAH ALAM DARWAJA) allotted to a Tamilian Iyengar who had sent his wife to her mother's place for delivery.ALL the four of us had left our families in the old station.
An officer from P&T AUDIT OFFICE known to me personally was returning to NAGPUR after completing his inspection work.I went to the station to see him off and to hand over a sweets packet to be delivered to my family at NAGPUR.The train departed from Ahmedabad Rly station around 7am.I do not exactly remember the day but it was in Semptember,1969.
I heard that there were five places in Ahmedabad were the minarettes in the MOSQUE will shake if you shake it.One was close to the Railway station.I went inside the MOSQUE and was trying to remove my shoes in a bending posture.Suddenly one Moulvi came and accused me that I am passing urinine inside the mask and started shoting at me.
I tried in vain to convince him that I am trying to remove my shoes only and the entire area is dry.He was not convnced and continued to shout and start a quarrel with me.I told him that he is not in proper mood and will come some other day. I returned home and went to office.
at about 11am we heard that communal riots had started and all SINDHI shops opposite the Mosque which I visited in the morning had been burnt., and curfew is likely to be imposed in the city.Somehow we managed to return in the evening.From next day onwards we were confined in our house and we could get meals only for two more days from a nearby Kerala Hotel.We started cooking some food in the house itself.Most part of SEPTEMBER,1969 passed on like this and during
curfew relaxation we used to buy essential requirements.OUR immediate neibourhood is a predominantly a MUSLIM locality.WE all used to participate in night vigil.Opposite our colony was A.G's office staff
colony.One SAturday a big crowd of muslims came from SHAH ALAM DARWAJA
with stones broken glass.North indians residing in the P&T colony
Jumbed the compound and faced the crowd.Immediately people from the opposite A.G.'s colony also joined.There was only a police outpost.
The battle continued for more than 30 minutes and was disbursed after
considerable number of police force came.Army took control on the fourth or fifth day and started enforcing curfew strictly.
We used to hear news that many hindu families were burnt.similarly we also used to hear that many muslim families were burnt.
I think Rich People from both communities finance the riots and engage poor people.INDIRA GANDHI was the PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA
and MR.HITENDRA DESAI(CONGRESS) was the CHIEF MINISTER.
IN AHMEDABAD there were two busy roads one MAHATMA GHANDHI ROAD and another RELIEF ROAD.ONE BIG MOSQOUE in one of the roads was
completely destroyed and in front there was a very big police station.
FRONTIER GHANDHI from PAKISTAN had visited INDIA after the riots.He also visited AHMEDABAD city.
Even now when I recollect the incident( I am now 76 years of age)I
am unable to sleep.I used to think that if I had continued the fight with the Moulvi on that day perhaps I would have been manhandled.
Government of INDIA would have apponted a committee and that committe would have come to the conclusion that the riots broke because one HINDU passed 'URINE' inside the mosque.THE REAL TRUTH WILL NEVER COME OUT.
When I used to read the news about riots in 2002, I was always recollecting the riots in 1969.According to me both the riots in
1969 and 2002 are exactly similar in terms of HUMAN LOSS and destruction of property.Riots in 2002 got TV coverage ang CONGRESS PARTY wanted to gain political advantage by blaming BJP without realising that they are bringing the country to DISREPUTE IN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL.I am also surprised that all NATIONAL TV channels give adverse publicity about riots in 2002 but never even mention that equally bigger communal riots took place in GUJARAT in 1969 when CONGREE PARTY was ruling at the centre and in GUJARAT state.
Some gentleman made a picture of some events in 2002 riots and minted money.FOR him and information of general public I want to report an event which took place in 1969 riots.
ONE MR.RAWAL came to our newly established office(Telecommunications Accounts, Gujarat in NAVARANGPURA AREA) on deputation from local TELEGRAPHS office.He was working as ASSITANT and reporting to me.
He was about 40 years of age married with three young children.
After near normalcy was restored, offices started fuctioning.
Mr.RAWAL was attending office but always looking worried and sad.
Often he used to get telephone calls and I noticed he was going out and return after sometime.I asked his colleague as to why Mr.RAWAL looks worried.I got shock of my life when I was told that his wife is missing.It appears she left the house during curfew relaxation period for shopping and never returned.His colleague was mentioning that HINDU woman will be abducted raped and killed.Many such events will never be reported.POOR RAWAL.HE WAS NOT EVENSURE WHETHER HIS WIFE WAS ALIVE OR DEAD.
ANOTHER THING I NOTICED.THERE IS POLARISATION among the people according to religion.People belonging to different political partiee
forget their party affiliation and sympathise with their religious group.SANITY & COOL thinking is the casualty during rits.
THERE ARE number of HISTORIANS IN OUR COUNTRY.I am doubtful whether any HISTORIAN will compare the events during 1969 and 2002 riots in GUJARAT will bring to light the real truth.
LET US ALL ENSURE THAT SUCH UNFORTUNATE INCIDENTS DO NOT RECUR IN INDIA.OUR neibour country will always try to divide the people in INDIA according to RELIGION
B.Krishnamurthy[/FONT]
The'NEWS" about CHANDAN VILLAGE appeared in "DINAMALAR" newspaper on 28th, December,2008 under the caption"General News-Pothu Seithigal"
Dinamalar paper is available on "www.dinamalar.com"

 

[happyhindu]

In continuation of my post no55 recorded yesterday,I reproduce below the copy of my Mail to "iyer123-yahoo groups on 12th July,2010.

Dear Sir,

I was in AHMEDABAD City from the last week of August 1969 till end of April 1970. I was transferred from NAGPUR to AHMEDABAD to start a new office from 1st September, 1969.Two friends from my office who were my colleagues and our immediate boss from Hyderabad were all staying in a P&T quarter (near SHAH ALAM DARWAJA) allotted to a Tamilian Iyengar who had sent his wife to her mother's place for delivery.ALL the four of us had left our families in the old station.

An officer from P&T AUDIT OFFICE known to me personally was returning to NAGPUR after completing his inspection work. I went to the station to see him off and to hand over a sweets packet to be delivered to my family at NAGPUR. The train departed from Ahmedabad Rly station around 7am. I do not exactly remember the day but it was in Semptember,1969.
I heard that there were five places in Ahmedabad were the minarettes in the MOSQUE will shake if you shake it.One was close to the Railway station.I went inside the MOSQUE and was trying to remove my shoes in a bending posture. Suddenly one Moulvi came and accused me that I am passing urinine inside the mask and started shoting at me.

I tried in vain to convince him that I am trying to remove my shoes only and the entire area is dry.He was not convnced and continued to shout and start a quarrel with me. I told him that he is not in proper mood and will come some other day. I returned home and went to office.

At about 11am we heard that communal riots had started and all SINDHI shops opposite the Mosque which I visited in the morning had been burnt., and curfew is likely to be imposed in the city. Somehow we managed to return in the evening. From next day onwards we were confined in our house and we could get meals only for two more days from a nearby Kerala Hotel. We started cooking some food in the house itself.

Most part of SEPTEMBER,1969 passed on like this and during curfew relaxation we used to buy essential requirements. OUR immediate neibourhood is a predominantly a MUSLIM locality. WE all used to participate in night vigil.Opposite our colony was A.G's office staff colony.

One Saturday a big crowd of muslims came from SHAH ALAM DARWAJA with stones broken glass.North indians residing in the P&T colony jumped the compund and faced the crowd. Immediately people from the opposite A.G.'s colony also joined. There was only a police outpost. The battle continued for more than 30 minutes and was disbursed after considerable number of police force came. Army took control on the fourth or fifth day and started enforcing curfew strictly. We used to hear news that many hindu families were burnt. Similarly we also used to hear that many muslim families were burnt.

I think Rich People from both communities finance the riots and engage poor people. INDIRA GANDHI was the PRIME MINISTER OF INDIA and MR.HITENDRA DESAI(CONGRESS) was the CHIEF MINISTER.
IN AHMEDABAD there were two busy roads one MAHATMA GHANDHI ROAD and another RELIEF ROAD. ONE BIG MOSQOUE in one of the roads was
completely destroyed and in front there was a very big police station. FRONTIER GHANDHI from PAKISTAN had visited INDIA after the riots. He also visited AHMEDABAD city.Even now when I recollect the incident (I am now 76 years of age) I
am unable to sleep. I used to think that if I had continued the fight with the Moulvi on that day perhaps I would have been manhandled.
Government of INDIA would have apponted a committee and that committe would have come to the conclusion that the riots broke because one HINDU passed 'URINE' inside the mosque. THE REAL TRUTH WILL NEVER COME OUT.

When I used to read the news about riots in 2002, I was always recollecting the riots in 1969. According to me both the riots in 1969 and 2002 are exactly similar in terms of HUMAN LOSS and destruction of property. Riots in 2002 got TV coverage and CONGRESS PARTY wanted to gain political advantage by blaming BJP without realising that they are bringing the country to DISREPUTE IN INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. I am also surprised that all NATIONAL TV channels give adverse publicity about riots in 2002 but never even mention that equally bigger communal riots took place in GUJARAT in 1969 when CONGREE PARTY was ruling at the centre and in GUJARAT state.

Some gentleman made a picture of some events in 2002 riots and minted money. FOR him and information of general public I want to report an event which took place in 1969 riots.

ONE MR.RAWAL came to our newly established office (Telecommunications Accounts, Gujarat in NAVARANGPURA AREA) on deputation from local TELEGRAPHS office. He was working as ASSITANT and reporting to me. He was about 40 years of age married with three young children. After near normalcy was restored, offices started fuctioning. Mr.RAWAL was attending office but always looking worried and sad.
Often he used to get telephone calls and I noticed he was going out and return after sometime.I asked his colleague as to why Mr.RAWAL looks worried. I got shock of my life when I was told that his wife is missing .It appears she left the house during curfew relaxation period for shopping and never returned.His colleague was mentioning that HINDU woman will be abducted raped and killed. Many such events will never be reported. POOR RAWAL.HE WAS NOT EVENSURE WHETHER HIS WIFE WAS ALIVE OR DEAD.

ANOTHER THING I NOTICED. THERE IS POLARISATION among the people according to religion. People belonging to different political partiee forget their party affiliation and sympathise with their religious group. SANITY & COOL thinking is the casualty during riots.

THERE ARE number of HISTORIANS IN OUR COUNTRY.I am doubtful whether any HISTORIAN will compare the events during 1969 and 2002 riots in GUJARAT will bring to light the real truth.

LET US ALL ENSURE THAT SUCH UNFORTUNATE INCIDENTS DO NOT RECUR IN INDIA. OUR neighbour country will always try to divide the people in INDIA according to RELIGION.

B.Krishnamurthy
The'NEWS" about CHANDAN VILLAGE appeared in "DINAMALAR" newspaper on 28th, December,2008 under the caption"General News-Pothu Seithigal"
Dinamalar paper is available on "www.dinamalar.com"

Dear Sir,

Thankyou very mush for this post. I tried to search for the news on the 1969 riots. I think even the media has not compared the 1969 and 2002 riots. No historian or investigative journalist will play his life on the dice and investigate the reason for such riots. As you have written, truth will never come out.

Do you have any information, what happened to Mrs.Raval? Did she return home?

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sir,

Thankyou very mush for this post. I tried to search for the news on the 1969 riots. I think even the media has not compared the 1969 and 2002 riots. No historian or investigative journalist will play his life on the dice and investigate the reason for such riots. As you have written, truth will never come out.

Do you have any information, what happened to Mrs.Raval? Did she return home?

Regards.

Dear Happy,

The sad truth is that we in Kerala or T.Nadu have not been subjected to the experiences of people in endemic riot-prone areas like Gujarat, Kashmir, Assam and, lately, the Maoist areas. In Ahmedabad particularly, the speed with which the riots spread is perhaps due to the fact that in the inner or walled city (Shah Alam Darwajah to which Shri Krishnamurthy refers, is near Mani nagar, slightly outside the central old city) in which both Hindus and muslims live, cheek by jowl, so to say. In Kanpur, Lucknow etc., the areas of the two communities are separate and you will be surprised to see the type of houses in a walled colony. (You can still see one - now partly changed - if you look for Meston Road, Kanpur and see the walls and houses to the left (east) of the road, and to the south of the Shivalaya road.)

And, as I said in an earlier post, even when curfew is relaxed for one or two hours, and you happen to go out for some purchase (not all shops will open during such curfew relaxations) you might get caught as curfew is suddenly reimposed. Since I was staying in Navrangpura, a better locality and only 2 furlongs from my office, I was not much affected by all the curfews but I had some relatives staying near Maninagar and knew well what happens during the riots.

As Suraju (that is from memory) said in any riot both sides will resort to violense. But from my experience in many parts of India, only a strong side will be respected and govt. (the congress) will never come to the help of Hindus (except as a meek show). That is why one finds very few communal riots in Gujarat after 2002. The moral is there for all to see, I think.

Yet another incident. 1970. The Assam Liberation Front (ALF) was gaining strength rapidly
and just like Shivsena in Maharashtra, their call for "sons of the soil" was at very great popularity, making the lives of Bengalis and Biharis miserable; the oriyas were also bete noire in Assam. A Parliamentary Committee had come and they were visiting all government establishments (both central and state) to review the progress in giving jobs to local people. They visited RBI office also and the discussions were in progress. Someone in the delegation said so many Bengalis had settled down for generations, purchased land and they are for all practical purposes Assamese only. The sharp reply of the ALF representative was that all the purchses were made by cheating the poor, illiterate Assames villagers - not from other Bengalis or Marwaris - and if there was a Chinese attack, all these people will entrain or fly by the first available opportunity, to Calcutta where their savings are parked and utilized for the development of that state. That is what differentiates them from a "true" Assamese! These are the realities of India, even today.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

Dear sri sangom ji
post # 62 is verygood,very much informative one.

 

[Nara]

Dear RVR sir, Greetings!

Your offer to organize special swayamvaram is commendable. This will be a nice addition to your oft publicized list of charity works that are as great as your own unmistakable distinction. Right from the first time I came across your posts in the forum I always knew you are a legend in your own mind.

I am quite taken by your superior skills in the style of debates that you engage in. It can only be characterized by what one could call full of awe, not some. I am now fully relieved of the notion that I belong in your league. So, I shall bow out and watch you collect scalps of the vanquished, figuratively of course, from the sidelines.

Thank you....

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR said;_

I have a counter offer to make. If any of the reformers here (including his/her close relatives) belonging to upper castes is willing to marry a [COLOR=#DA7911 ! important][COLOR=#DA7911 ! important]bride[/COLOR] or bride groom belonging to a `Narikurava' community member, I shall organise to fund the entire marriage expenses. I am sure our community members belonging to conservative group here will liberally donate to perform the marriage in a decent manner.[/COLOR]

My offer is meant for the reformers in this forum who are willing for `intercaste marriages' or for those who are propagating intercaste marriages. If any of them are willing, please inform through this forum or through personal messages to me so that I shall try to organise a swayamvaram for them exclusively with participation from Narikurava community members.

Sri.RVR Sir, you have not posted a 'challenge'; you have posted an invitation to a party. I have written in favour of Inter-caste marriages. In fact, in my opinion, that is going to be the only weapon that would work against the caste-based discriminations. I am more than happy to accept your invitation. My son is seeking (not seriously yet though) a bride. He is 27 years old; approximately 6 feet tall; very well built, all muscle; dark complxion; very well mannered; about 4 times more polite than myself; Engineer; employed in the same company for the last over 5 years; (I did speak to you about his career advancements); earns very decent money (details in PM please). Any girl from any community ...she may be from the highest of the high caste or lowest of the low caste like all SC and ST castes including 'Nari kuravas' is fine. There is one important condition though; the girl and my son should like each other (this is quite an important condition though). So, what is my part? Well, I and my wife will receive and look after such a girl as our own daughter. I am more than happy to send more information in PM. I will really be very greatful if you come across such a bride for him.I am not presenting this as a challenge; I am presenting this a polite acceptance to your invitation. I don't think I would need any money from anyone for this. I thank you in advance.
By the way, I did not consider myself belonging to 'upper caste'. I responded to the invitation since I suggested Inter-caste marriages. That's all.

to your kind notice - If you intended to Challenge Sri.Nara, you may have to think of real challenges. For starters, you may Challenge Sri.Nara to consider a dalit and a caste brahmin with equal empathy. Seems simple, is it not? you would think any human would do it, right? Try it, please! It will be interesting. While saying this, I have to caution you though; kindly be prepared to take up the challenge Sri.Nara would throw at you.

Cheers!

 

[pannvalan]

I wish to share an experience of my own about communal riots here.

I and my family were living in Solapur (pronounced wrongly as Sholapur by many) in Maharashtra. In September, 2002, communal riots broke out all of a sudden. The trigger was some American priest/senator spoke of all Muslims in a disparaging and damaging manner. In retaliation, the local Muslims indulged in arson, looting and murder and naturally, the Hindus hit back. This resulted in unchecked vandalism and a long spell of curfew that lasted for nearly 15 days. Initially, the curfew was enforced for all the 24 hours of a day and then gradually relaxed in phases.

People who are familiar with Maharashtra will endorse my statement that Maharashtrians by nature are very sensitive and never hesitate to react violently, if provoked. More so in a place like Solapur where the Kannadigas (Lingayats), Telugus (Padmasalis), Muslims and Marvaris outnumber the Maharashtrians, the Marathis are so powerful and vociferous of all and they have a great influence on all. But, all of them even today co-exist peacefully and mingle with each other freely, though their tenements are concentrated in pockets, according to their religious or linguistic identity.

What I observed was, even though the Muslims constitute only 15% of the city's population, they could inflict equal if not more damage to the lives and properties of the majority community.

This taught me two lessons.

1. We should not marginalize the majority population in their own mother land.

2. When mob fury catches up, people become beasts and forget their other identities/responsibilities and polarisation on caste/communal lines takes
place, giving way to utter lawlessness and chaos everywhere.

I should also wish to tell that Maharashtrians are otherwise loving and friendly people, as long as their cultural identity is not perceived to be under threat.

 

[RVR]

Sri.RVR said;_



Sri.RVR Sir, you have not posted a 'challenge'; you have posted an invitation to a party. I have written in favour of Inter-caste marriages. In fact, in my opinion, that is going to be the only weapon that would work against the caste-based discriminations. I am more than happy to accept your invitation. My son is seeking (not seriously yet though) a bride. He is 27 years old; approximately 6 feet tall; very well built, all muscle; dark complxion; very well mannered; about 4 times more polite than myself; Engineer; employed in the same company for the last over 5 years; (I did speak to you about his career advancements); earns very decent money (details in PM please). Any girl from any community ...she may be from the highest of the high caste or lowest of the low caste like all SC and ST castes including 'Nari kuravas' is fine. There is one important condition though; the girl and my son should like each other (this is quite an important condition though). So, what is my part? Well, I and my wife will receive and look after such a girl as our own daughter. I am more than happy to send more information in PM. I will really be very greatful if you come across such a bride for him.I am not presenting this as a challenge; I am presenting this a polite acceptance to your invitation. I don't think I would need any money from anyone for this. I thank you in advance.
By the way, I did not consider myself belonging to 'upper caste'. I responded to the invitation since I suggested Inter-caste marriages. That's all.

to your kind notice - If you intended to Challenge Sri.Nara, you may have to think of real challenges. For starters, you may Challenge Sri.Nara to consider a dalit and a caste brahmin with equal empathy. Seems simple, is it not? you would think any human would do it, right? Try it, please! It will be interesting. While saying this, I have to caution you though; kindly be prepared to take up the challenge Sri.Nara would throw at you.

Cheers!

Hats off to you Sri Raghy.

சொல்லுதல் யாவர்க்கும் இனியதாம் சொல்லிய வண்ணம் செயல்

"Preaching is the easiest thing; to put it in practice is difficult"

Generally we come across people who preach others but when it come to action, they run away from the problem.

You are definitely different from all others and I bow to you for your bold decision.

Personally I am interested in doing something for the deprived sections who are ignored by the Governments in India. These people are still discriminated by caste Hindus and atrocities are still going on both physically and mentally.

Just now I returned from a discussion where one of my oldest friend has offered to donate about 10 acres of land for a charitable school near Melmaruvathur in the Chennai Tindivanam route. I had telephonic conversation with the Junior Swamiji (disciple of Swami Dayananda Saraswathi) and he readily agreed to take the proposal of deveoping a school, a hospital, vocational training centre and a senior citizens complex. It is in a rural area where mostly daliths and other backward communities are living.

We are inspecting the spot in the next two days and I shall convince the Swamiji and admit as many students of `Narikurava' community as possible free of tuition fees. Since this community is deliberately classified as `Backward Class' and are deprived of their `Scheduled Tribe' status by both the State and Central Governments, we have to help them with good education to come up in life.

Whatever help required for an alliance for your son, please inform me through personal message and I am always at your service.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR said:-

Just now I returned from a discussion where one of my oldest friend has offered to donate about 10 acres of land for a charitable school near Melmaruvathur in the Chennai Tindivanam route. I had telephonic conversation with the Junior Swamiji (disciple of Swami Dayananda Saraswathi) and he readily agreed to take the proposal of deveoping a school, a hospital, vocational training centre and a senior citizens complex. It is in a rural area where mostly daliths and other backward communities are living.

Sri.RVR sir,

Your service to the community is highly commendable. It is really great!

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

I spoke to the Tahsildar of my area in the morning and he showed me a guide line issued to him by the Government of Tamilnadu. He didn't part with hard copy of the guideline as it is an internal document.

I searched the web and got the guidelines which are similar to what was shown to me. Here are the links.

Caste Certificate

http://www.tiruvannamalai.tn.nic.in/edocs/pdf-ccommunity.pdf

He told me bluntly that he will go strictly according to the above guidelines and issue the certificate based on the verification of the previous details of my parents as well as my own SSLC certificate.

He told me that he is least bothered about what work I am doing now. He said, even if I am doing a hair cutting job, I am not entitled to get caste certificate as `barber' if the supporting certificates declare otherwise.

It is a futile exercise to argue with him further and he would have literally thrown me out of his office if I had argued with him further.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

I spoke to the Tahsildar of my area in the morning and he showed me a guide line issued to him by the Government of Tamilnadu. He didn't part with hard copy of the guideline as it is an internal document.

I searched the web and got the guidelines which are similar to what was shown to me. Here are the links.

Caste Certificate

http://www.tiruvannamalai.tn.nic.in/edocs/pdf-ccommunity.pdf

He told me bluntly that he will go strictly according to the above guidelines and issue the certificate based on the verification of the previous details of my parents as well as my own SSLC certificate.

He told me that he is least bothered about what work I am doing now. He said, even if I am doing a hair cutting job, I am not entitled to get caste certificate as `barber' if the supporting certificates declare otherwise.

It is a futile exercise to argue with him further and he would have literally thrown me out of his office if I had argued with him further.

All the best

Please let us know what are you going to do next. To boost the morale of all the downtrodden that you claim you are working for (to show them that they are not born inferior and that you are "proud to be a shudra"), you have to do something big.

Please find the next authority higher to the Tashildar and take your case to him. Eventually you will have to go to the courts to fight your case. Hopefully you will be prepared with the necessary documents.

Regards.

 

[B.Krishnamurthy]

Ms HappyHindu,
Dear Madam,
As I stated in my original posting, I left Ahmedabad in the first week of May,1970
on promotion and posted in RAJAHMUNDRY,ANDHRA.I never visited Ahmedabad after 1970 till date.My normal presumption is that poor lady would have been a victim of communal riots as I was told that such incidents do take place during and immediately after communal riots.
People also settle scores by stabbing or throwing acids etc in isolated pockets
though the The LAW ENFORCING AGENCIES will claim that complete NORMALCY has been restored
.

 

[happyhindu]

Ms HappyHindu,
Dear Madam,
As I stated in my original posting, I left Ahmedabad in the first week of May,1970
on promotion and posted in RAJAHMUNDRY,ANDHRA.I never visited Ahmedabad after 1970 till date.My normal presumption is that poor lady would have been a victim of communal riots as I was told that such incidents do take place during and immediately after communal riots.
People also settle scores by stabbing or throwing acids etc in isolated pockets
though the The LAW ENFORCING AGENCIES will claim that complete NORMALCY has been restored
.

Dear Sir,

I earnestly request you please do not call me madam (it feels ackward, and you are older than my father).

It is sickening to think what might have happened to the lady. Law enforcement in India is almost a joke. And the judicial system remains outdated with plenty of loopholes and is an even weaker system.

The riots we hear about in independent India is nothing new. I was reading some vijayanagar accounts.

We think only muslim soilders have attacked hindus. But during the vijayanagar period counter attacks on muslim women by hindu men (out of revenge) existed.

Practically all thru the Vijayanagar period, whenever muslims attacked hindus, the hindus no longer remained meek, they too retailated and attacked the muslims.

I have never been able to understand why does a woman have to pay the price for such things. If a man is a man let him fight a man, why does he need to bring a woman in between to settle scores.

I think this hatered-thing and revenge-seeking is a vicious cycle. How many wrongs can one set right.....there will be no end to it ...

It wud be so much better to leave the past behind and move forward peacefully, collectively ...but how many people are willing to leave the past behind ?????

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu asked -

I think this hatered-thing and revenge-seeking is a vicious cycle. How many wrongs can one set right.....there will be no end to it ...

It wud be so much better to leave the past behind and move forward peacefully, collectively ...but how many people are willing to leave the past behind ?????

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

Greetings. There is nothing wrong in learning a lesson from history for building a peaceful future. But unfortunately, I see most persons, including members in this forum dig out the past only to blame a person or a group of persons; digging the past is done only in revenge by these people, most times such acts may not even be logic. (Although I don't normally hesitate to name names, I am not doing it this time because, the list is way too long, including my name at times). We have not matured enough to say 'enough is enough' towards caste based atrocities and paybacks / religion based atrocities and pay backs.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu asked -

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu,

Greetings. There is nothing wrong in learning a lesson from history for building a peaceful future. But unfortunately, I see most persons, including members in this forum dig out the past only to blame a person or a group of persons; digging the past is done only in revenge by these people, most times such acts may not even be logic. (Although I don't normally hesitate to name names, I am not doing it this time because, the list is way too long, including my name at times). We have not matured enough to say 'enough is enough' towards caste based atrocities and paybacks / religion based atrocities and pay backs.

Cheers!

Dear Shri Raghy,

Many times over the past 7 months i have written things for the sake of some things (though my personal thots either played no role, or were different). In that sense, i have not been true to myself and have failed myself in the ethics of conversation.

When it comes to blaming, please understand that pointing out a few things is not blaming.

Just imagine if you were a dalit and if you were treated as an untouchable because the brahmanical shastras say so, where wud you direct your anger at...esp when you have gurus and priests who insist upon birth based untouchabiility in this day and time..

When i bring out the points of such priests and gurus, certainly i am not blaming all brahmins. (Please spare me from the accusation of such a crime. Am most certainly aware that all brahmins or all people of one caste are not the same).

The tone of my posts changes only for certain folks like Shri RVR (the vox populi of brahmins) who defends certain varna- concepts in the guise of freedom of faith...i therefore wud like to see how Shri RVR fares as a proud shudra....

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sow.Sri.Happy Hindu asked -

Just imagine if you were a dalit and if you were treated as an untouchable because the brahmanical shastras say so, where wud you direct your anger at...esp when you have gurus and priests who insist upon birth based untouchabiility in this day and time..

Sow.Happy Hindu, Greetings. I do not have to imagine. I know. I know it many times over. First, he directed his anger at himself, for having born as a Harijan. Then he took a stick and beat about most of the plants nearby until he bacame tired. Then he cried on my shoulders; cried for a long time; தேம்பி தேம்பி அழுதான். I was 8 years old; he was about 17 years old.

What gurus and priests? Last month I was in my village, saw discrimination taking place. (My brother forced me away from there). Caste based discrimination is settled like tar in our society, in our minds. I wish to bring India untouched to your memory, please. What guru, what priest encouraged the discrimination in that tea shop? or forcing them to take of their foot wear and get down from their bicycles? What if they go in a car? would they have to get off the car and push the car until they pass the high caste area? Are these people follow a guru or priest to make those discriminations?

Gurus and priests should go to all these places and advice them not to follow discriminations; should visit again and again.

All of us could have done a bit more for our society. Atleast we should do a bit more in the future. It is going to take a very long time before our society come out of caste based atrocities and discriminations. But it is very slowly happening.

Cheers!