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Caste Based Discriminations

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RVR

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The following incident happened in the heart of Chennai city less than a KM from the state headquarters in broad daylight.

Tribals denied entry into cinema - Chennai - City - The Times of India

People who don't want to give even cinema tickets to scheduled tribes in the balcony are going to lift them to greater heights in the social status. Inspite of a lawyer fighting for the Scheduled Tribes, the police is not willing to act. This is happening under dravidian rule.

All the best
 
Sri Sangom Sir,

My question in the `Reservations for Brahmins' thread is very clear.

Can you show me any ancient Hindu scripture which talks about the fifth `varna'. Peronally I know only Baghavat Geetha and it talks about just four `varnas' only.

Both Mahatma Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda spoke for the oppressed classes which is a recent event of say 100 years plus only. It is not answering my question.

For my second question about Brahmin kings, your explanation talks about two thousand years back some brahmin rulers ruled India that also from Narmada to Punjab area. It means in the entire soutern and western India Brahmins have never ruled.

I have already quoted an incident in my previous posting in this thread which happened only yesterday in which Scheduled Tribes were denied entry to a cinema hall. It is happening under `Dravidian Rule' and Police is just trying to close the case without doing justice to the affected Scheduled Tribes. It is a clear cut human rights violation.

I request those who shed tears for oppressed communities to take up this case with appropriate authorities and punish the culprits immediately.

I think it will be a great service to the Scheduled communities affected in yesterday incident.

All the best
 
Sri Sangom Sir,

My question in the `Reservations for Brahmins' thread is very clear.

Can you show me any ancient Hindu scripture which talks about the fifth `varna'. Peronally I know only Baghavat Geetha and it talks about just four `varnas' only.

Both Mahatma Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda spoke for the oppressed classes which is a recent event of say 100 years plus only. It is not answering my question.

For my second question about Brahmin kings, your explanation talks about two thousand years back some brahmin rulers ruled India that also from Narmada to Punjab area. It means in the entire soutern and western India Brahmins have never ruled.

I have already quoted an incident in my previous posting in this thread which happened only yesterday in which Scheduled Tribes were denied entry to a cinema hall. It is happening under `Dravidian Rule' and Police is just trying to close the case without doing justice to the affected Scheduled Tribes. It is a clear cut human rights violation.

I request those who shed tears for oppressed communities to take up this case with appropriate authorities and punish the culprits immediately.

I think it will be a great service to the Scheduled communities affected in yesterday incident.

All the best
I only wanted to give you some references which showed that the term panchama was accepted by Gandhiji and Vivekananda, both of whom you respect. I also pointed out that Gandhiji was of the view that the blood of the oppressed classes was "on our hands". In case you are not satisfied with a hundred years of blood, and will only be satisfied with more, I think we will have to ask Gandhiji or Vivekananda about their views as to when the oppression started, in their estimation.

Your style is somewhat slippery IMO. You said, I don't find any brahmin kings; you did not specify that you would have only brahmin kings ruling Tamil nadu or perhaps even more specific, if you are not having an answer. I don't think it will be useful to enter into any discussion with you as long as you stick to this style. Sorry, I stop here.
 
Sri Sangom,

Please read the following interview of Baba Saheb Ambedkar

The Original Home of the Hindus (Interview of Dr Ambedkar)

He clearly says that there is no fifth varna in our scriptures.

It only confirms my view that the socalled fifth varna is a creation of the rulers in the subsequent period. Without the patronization of the rulers, it is not at all possible.

Brahmins have ruled for short period compared to the long history of the nation,north of Narmada river more than 2000 years back and you cannot blame them for creation of untouchablity. Even whatever happened in a Cinema Theatre in Chennai is under Dravidian rule which has fundamental pricinciples of social reforms only. I very well know the theatre owner is not a brahmin and all of us know the rulers are not brahmins. Those who are really interested in fighting against oppressions should fight the present system of discrimination in a court of law instead of blaming the past for which no proof is available.

Other wise, we can conclude that it is nothing but brahmin bashing in this forum without any valid proof.

All the best

I only wanted to give you some references which showed that the term panchama was accepted by Gandhiji and Vivekananda, both of whom you respect. I also pointed out that Gandhiji was of the view that the blood of the oppressed classes was "on our hands". In case you are not satisfied with a hundred years of blood, and will only be satisfied with more, I think we will have to ask Gandhiji or Vivekananda about their views as to when the oppression started, in their estimation.

Your style is somewhat slippery IMO. You said, I don't find any brahmin kings; you did not specify that you would have only brahmin kings ruling Tamil nadu or perhaps even more specific, if you are not having an answer. I don't think it will be useful to enter into any discussion with you as long as you stick to this style. Sorry, I stop here.
 
Frankly, RVR, this incident does not show caste discrimination. We know how these Nari Kuravars are? If I admit a Nari Kuravar to my house, I would be more than careful. Not because there is anything wrong with them. But they do not know the norms of the normal urban society. Restaurants and cinema houses are reluctant to admit them especially when they come in larger groups.

It is more for protecting the property from damage than anything else. Nari Kuravas do have a reputation for damaging property. Not intentionally, but because they do not know how to handle the property.

I remember long time back in one of the rural areas the village people would walk out when the local engineering college students came in large groups. The noisy and boisterous behavior of the students turned them away. The cinema owner tolerated this because the students were his major customers.

When I read this news, we had a laugh. There is no caste discrimination in this.

My communist friends would call this a class discrimination. The Urban Rich versus the Rural Poor.
 
Sri Sangom,

Please read the following interview of Baba Saheb Ambedkar

The Original Home of the Hindus (Interview of Dr Ambedkar)

He clearly says that there is no fifth varna in our scriptures.

It only confirms my view that the socalled fifth varna is a creation of the rulers in the subsequent period. Without the patronization of the rulers, it is not at all possible.

Shri RVR,

Since you are now using BR Ambedkar's work as a reference to claim there was no fifth varna, therefore you should also read his works to understand why he held brahmins responsible for the ills of the caste system, and for the oppression of the 'dalits'.

Actually, i really do think you should read more books by BR Ambedkar. So that you can understand the caste-system, before you jump to the defence of it the next time (no worries, i have defended the caste system previously too, so i too have jumped before, just that you do it more often without turning in any direction).

Hopefully after reading books written by BR Ambedkar, your mind might suddenly open up to what he has conveyed thru his writings.

Brahmins have ruled for short period compared to the long history of the nation,north of Narmada river more than 2000 years back and you cannot blame them for creation of untouchablity. Even whatever happened in a Cinema Theatre in Chennai is under Dravidian rule which has fundamental pricinciples of social reforms only. I very well know the theatre owner is not a brahmin and all of us know the rulers are not brahmins. Those who are really interested in fighting against oppressions should fight the present system of discrimination in a court of law instead of blaming the past for which no proof is available.

Other wise, we can conclude that it is nothing but brahmin bashing in this forum without any valid proof.

All the best

Shri RVR, please do me a favor. Please read the dharmashastras. Start with Manu, proceed to the others. Then ask brahmanical gurus of mutts why they want everyone to follow the dharmashastras in the present times. Then please come back and post their views here so that all of us can know what they said.
 
Sri Sankara Sharma Sir,

Nari Kuravas belongs to Scheduled Tribes community. As per our constitution, they are specially protected against untouchability and other discriminating practices.

Cinema Theatres doesn't prescribe any dress code for admission to the cinema hall.

If the `nari kuravas' damages the property of the theatre, they can be prosecuted under Indian Penal Code by the theatre owners.

Denying admission to them to the theatre anticipating that they damage the property is not correct as per any law.

All Scheduled tribes are given reservation in Government employments and eductional institutions under special preference. Nari Kuravas can apply for the same and enter into elite Instituions like IIT, IISc, AIIMS etc. The equipments in those institutions are much more costly. IIT/IISc etc have state of art equipments and AIIMS is dealing with human life. If the Nari Kuravas do damage in these institutions to costly equipments or human life, then it will be much more dangerous.

On the contrary only seats can be damaged in a cinema theatre which even hard core cinema fans belonging to all communities are anyway doing rgularly. Then why discriminate Nari Kuravas alone? Simply because they belong to scheduled tribes community?

All rural people are admitted to cinema theatres in cities without any discrimination. Simplly because Nari Kuravas belog to rural the cannot be denied admissions to the cinema theatre and the argument is not at all acceptable .

Let people who talk about age old discriminations answer my queries. According to Baba Saheb Ambedkar, there is no fifth varna as per our scriptures. Brahmins were not rulers of the country for the past two thousand years plus. But discrimination practice is prevailing even today under our honourable CM,Mr. Karunanidhi. Incidentally the Tamilnadu CM holds Home portfolio also under which Police department is attached. Mr.Karunanidhi is a direct disciple of EVR and he was with him even when DMK split from DK. He joined DMK at a much later date.

Discrimination is happening now in broad day light in the heart of Chennai City under the direct control of a direct disciple of EVR.

Let our members who are continuously fighting for the oppressed sections here answer my quarries.

All the best
 
Shri RVR,

Since you are now using BR Ambedkar's work as a reference to claim there was no fifth varna, therefore you should also read his works to understand why he held brahmins responsible for the ills of the caste system, and for the oppression of the 'dalits'.

Actually, i really do think you should read more books by BR Ambedkar. So that you can understand the caste-system, before you jump to the defence of it the next time (no worries, i have defended the caste system previously too, so i too have jumped before, just that you do it more often without turning in any direction).

Hopefully after reading books written by BR Ambedkar, your mind might suddenly open up to what he has conveyed thru his writings.



Shri RVR, please do me a favor. Please read the dharmashastras. Start with Manu, proceed to the others. Then ask brahmanical gurus of mutts why they want everyone to follow the dharmashastras in the present times. Then please come back and post their views here so that all of us can know what they said.

Ms Happy Hindu,

I believe in Indian constitution only and it supersedes all individual religious laws belonging to all religions.

For example a muslim woman divorcee is not entitled to compensation from her erstwhile husband as per Muslim Personal Law (popularly known as shariat law) but Supreme Court pronounced judgement in Shah Banu case that all Indian women irrespective of their faith are entitled for compensation from their erstwhile divorcee husbands.

There is no single Hindu law practiced throughout the country and there are several laws and practices prevailing in the country. A male child gets a right over ancestral property at the time birth in several parts of India except Bengal (Mitakshara School). In Bengal where Dayabagha school is practiced,a male gets a right over ancestral property only after the death of the father. In Kerala Nair community, Marumakka Daayam is practiced where a Son-in-law inherits the ancestral property. But according to my lawyers both boy and girl gets equal share of ancestral property as per Indian Laws. I already highlighted in another thread where our own CM, Mr.Karunanidhi is discriminating his own daughters Selvi and Kanimozhi in denying property rights.

I am interested in learning only Indian constitution and the laws enacted under it which are applicable for all citizens of the country without any discrimination. I have no legal background and learning it at this age is a very difficult proposition. But `ignorance of law is no excuse' as per the court decisions and every Indian citizen is suppose to know the law of the land. Let me atleast make a sincere attempt to learn the Indian laws which itself is going to be very difficult.

My question is not answered still. Those who claim that they have mastered Hindu scriptures enlighten me whether the fifth varna is mentioned in our scriptures. I just searched in the web and I got the opinion of Baba Saheb Ambedkar and reproduced here.

Personally I am interested in Gandhian philosophy and economics which one of my dalith friend Mr. Rangasamy Elango is doing.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4413-gandhian-economics-village-2.html

After successful implementation in Tiruvallur district, he is implementing the above in nearly thousand villages in Tamilnadu. I met him just two days back and we are regularly discussing in fine tuning the model.

I don't have either time or usage to read old scriptures. I am not visiting Madathipathis or God men as I have enough productive work in hand.

All the best
 
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Regarding the term "Panchamas", I quote some of the sutras from Manava Dharma Sastra (aka Manu Neethi).

Talking about the classification of offsprings born of mixed caste marriages, Manu says:-
निषादस्त्री तु चण्डालात् पुत्रम् अन्त्यावसायिनम् । श्मशान गोचरम् सूते बाह्यानाम् अपि गर्हितम्॥ १०-३९
10.39. A Nishada woman bears to a Chandaala, a son (called) Antyaavasaayin, employed in burial-grounds and living within its bounds, and despised even by those excluded (from the Aryan community, i.e., the four castes brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya and sudra).

Describing the vaisvadevam ritual, Manu states, among various other details, as under:-
शूनाम् च पतितानाम् च श्वपचाम् पापरोगिणाम् । वयसानाम् कृमीणाम् च शनकैर्निर्वपेद्भुवि ॥ ३-९२
3.92. Let him gently place on the ground (some food) for dogs, outcasts, chandaalas (svapaakas), those afflicted with diseases that are punishments of former sins, crows, and insects.

Note: Thus chandaalas and svapaakas (another outcaste group beyond the pale of chaaturvarnya); since the place of the offering was just outside the Brahmana's house, and since the chandaalas, svapaakas, etc., could never aspire to come even within the Aryan (four caste) village, this sloka just tells the reader that the status of the chandaala/svapaaka/outcast was nothing more than that of the dogs.

Among the rules of conduct for a good brahmana, Manu lays down as under:-
न सम्वसेत् च पतितैर्न चाण्डालैर्नपुल्कसैः । न मूर्खैर्नाविलप्तैश्च नान्त्यैर्नान्त्यावसायिभिः ॥ ४-७९
4.79. Let him not stay together with outcasts, nor with Chandalas, nor with Pukkasas, nor with fools, nor with overbearing men, nor with low-caste men (antyaas), nor with Antyaavasaayins. Here Manu mentions "antyaavasaayins" as different from "antyas" or low-caste men.

In the section dealing with offsprings of the offsprings of inter-caste marriages, Manu says,
यथैव शूद्रो ब्राह्मण्याम् बाह्यम् जन्तुम् प्रसूयते । तथा बाह्यतरम् बाह्यश्चातुर्वर्ण्ये प्रसूयते ॥ १०-३०
10.30. Just as a Sudra begets on a Brahmana female a being which is excluded (from the Aryan community), even so (a person who is himself so) excluded procreates with (females of) the four castes (varnas), (sons) who are more (worthy of being) excluded (than he himself).

This is the origin of a group or caste or whatever one might call them, as the "fifth caste" (baahyaas). They were not allowed to live near any of the four castes and the burning place (smasaanam) was earmarked for them, outside the village, settlement of the Aryan community.

The groups antyaavasaayins and antyas got combined, in course of time, since both were outside the pale of Chaaturvarnya and Aryan settlements, and came to be denoted by the common word "antyaja".

These lowest group of human beings, cast outside the "chaaturvarnya" system of the Aryans, were generally known as "antyaja" as stated above. In Madras Presidency, they were originally grouped as "Paraiyas and kindred classes", which included (according to earlier references) the Pulayan, Chakkilian, and Thotti. This classification was replaced, probably for convenience, by the term "Panchamas" first in the Madras Census Report, 1871. Obviously, it must not have been an invention by a Britisher but of a native who was aware of this term being applied to denote the said classes. Since the Madras Presidency included, besides the present day T.N., other areas also, similarly disadvantaged groups or classes from the other areas also got included in the term "Panchamas". AFIK, this term was not current outside the Madras Presidency. In the north terms like "Dom, Domb" etc., were used, I think.
 
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What is the meaning of "ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி" and did the text in which it occurs came into existence after the British came to India?
 
Frankly, RVR, this incident does not show caste discrimination. We know how these Nari Kuravars are? If I admit a Nari Kuravar to my house, I would be more than careful. Not because there is anything wrong with them. But they do not know the norms of the normal urban society. Restaurants and cinema houses are reluctant to admit them especially when they come in larger groups.

It is more for protecting the property from damage than anything else. Nari Kuravas do have a reputation for damaging property. Not intentionally, but because they do not know how to handle the property.

I remember long time back in one of the rural areas the village people would walk out when the local engineering college students came in large groups. The noisy and boisterous behavior of the students turned them away. The cinema owner tolerated this because the students were his major customers.

When I read this news, we had a laugh. There is no caste discrimination in this.

My communist friends would call this a class discrimination. The Urban Rich versus the Rural Poor.

Narikkoravas do not keep themselves clean--true. But how many of the other visitors in the front rows at the cinema theatre keep themselves clean? Here it was a clear case of discrimination because they were Narikuravas and no one will take up their case even if they were illtreated. Not because of anyother reasons.
 
What is the meaning of "ம்ரித்யூர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி" and did the text in which it occurs came into existence after the British came to India?
Dear Suraju06,

Your query does not seem (to me) to be a genuine request for knowing the meaning. If you have heard "ம்ரித்யுர் தாவதி பஞ்சம இதி (not ம்ரித்யூர், please note)", you will normally know where it appears and whether that book is older than the English East India Company (or its predecessors) or not. I therefore feel it may not be necessary to give you a genuine answer. You may now please state your opinion on the point raised by you, instead of trying to gauge someone else.

Thanks
 
DR Jambu Sir,

Just copy the web address at the top of the browser and paste in your posting page.

The webaddress may start as www followed by the website address and then the actual news page


All the best



Dear
thank you for getting that link I could not do it on that day . Can you guide as to how this is done. Jambu:humble:
 
Shri RVR,

Since you are now using BR Ambedkar's work as a reference to claim there was no fifth varna, therefore you should also read his works to understand why he held brahmins responsible for the ills of the caste system, and for the oppression of the 'dalits'.

Actually, i really do think you should read more books by BR Ambedkar. So that you can understand the caste-system, before you jump to the defence of it the next time (no worries, i have defended the caste system previously too, so i too have jumped before, just that you do it more often without turning in any direction).

Hopefully after reading books written by BR Ambedkar, your mind might suddenly open up to what he has conveyed thru his writings.

Ambedkar was just a poliitician with all the shortcomings of a politician. Like other politicians he was sold on an idea and he promoted it with the skills of an able advocate.He was not such a noble soul that one should emulate him. What he has conveyed through his writings are not gospel truth to be accepted without questioning.
Shri RVR, please do me a favor. Please read the dharmashastras. Start with Manu, proceed to the others. Then ask brahmanical gurus of mutts why they want everyone to follow the dharmashastras in the present times. Then please come back and post their views here so that all of us can know what they said.
Manu was a kshatriya. 80 out of every 100 persons in the country do not know who these "brahminical gurus" are and they do not care to know either. They do not practice casteism because of any o0f these non-existent(as far as these people are concerned) gurus but because it is convenient for them and it protects their economic interests. These gurus who are in the periphery of the scheme of things, are an obsession only for the politicians who have an axe to grind. They see in these gurus a hatred object, and in whipping them an opiate which can be distributed to the gullible public to keep them for ever slaves of the hatred opium. HH are you really bothered about these gurus? Ask yourself this question and get a honest answer. How many times have you listened to their advice or teachings? Do you follow all that they say without questioning? and Yes. dont forget to do that. Ask atleast a 100 strangers u meet on the road and ask them individually whether he/she knows so and so as a guru. The answers you get will be revealing. I can post here the views of these gurus.These are not as casteist as you assume and you would like us believe.But who says their views matter? Only the disciples who are a woefully insignificant minority. Then where does your penchant for dragging these gurus here stand? In any case I did not expect this kind of "dare" challenges in this forum. They are usually raised in the street corner political meetings where hatred mongers sell the opiates liberally with a sweetener by name Tamil.
My views are highlighted in red.
 
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Sri Sangom Sir,

The Sutras for Manava Dharma Sastra doesn't have the word Panchamas.

Both in Ramayana and Mahabaratha, we heard about Rakshashas, Asuras, Gandarvas etc.

Ravanan & his brothers are termed as Rakshashas. But Ravanan is a highly learned person and his weekness for other man's wife was the only problem.

Vibishana, inspite of being born in Rakshasha community displayed high level of maturity.

Bagasuran was an asura in Mahabaratha killed by Bheema Sena. But Bagasuran is a man eater.

Bheema Sena had a Gandarva marriage and Gadothkasan was his son.

But none of them were termed as `Panchamas'

The word Panchamas seems to be a latter day invention by British in 1871.

We have heard both Tiruppanazhwar and Nandanar stories but God himself intervened and corrected the wrong doings.

Please read the story of Sridhara Ayyaval of Tiruvisanallur dated around 16th century AD from the following weblink

FESTIVAL CELEBRATED IN KUMBAKONAM TEMPLES

Our own community members have displayed humanity to the best possible extent before British invasion.

May be due to the food habits of present day SC/ST, other communities were not mingling freely with them.

But discriminating `nari kuravaas' now in a public place is against the basic principles of the constitution. Today we have a `constitution' which is supreme and supersedes all other scriptures of all the religions.

It is happening in a state where the so called champions of social justice is ruling.

Please read my link of Ambedkar's views on `panchamas' which cannot be discarded just like that.

I personally feel that the so called `panchamas' are the creation British with the connivance of Justice party - predecessors of the present day Dravidian parties. The present Dravidian parties are silent on ill treatment done to the `Nari Kuravas'

Brahmins may be silent spectators all along as they were not the ruling class for more than 2000 years. Even today we are just silent spectators only.

Today also Brahmins have no problem in supporting a dalith leader like Mayavathi. But other communities are not having the same broad mind.

Personally I am supporting a dalith leader in his community service activities. But there are murmurs from other communities which I am ignoring.

Please look into whole thing objectively without any pre-conceived opinions.

All the best








Regarding the term "Panchamas", I quote some of the sutras from Manava Dharma Sastra (aka Manu Neethi).

Talking about the classification of offsprings born of mixed caste marriages, Manu says:-
निषादस्त्री तु चण्डालात् पुत्रम् अन्त्यावसायिनम् । श्मशान गोचरम् सूते बाह्यानाम् अपि गर्हितम्॥ १०-३९
10.39. A Nishada woman bears to a Chandaala, a son (called) Antyaavasaayin, employed in burial-grounds and living within its bounds, and despised even by those excluded (from the Aryan community, i.e., the four castes brahmana, kshatriya, vaisya and sudra).

Describing the vaisvadevam ritual, Manu states, among various other details, as under:-
शूनाम् च पतितानाम् च श्वपचाम् पापरोगिणाम् । वयसानाम् कृमीणाम् च शनकैर्निर्वपेद्भुवि ॥ ३-९२
3.92. Let him gently place on the ground (some food) for dogs, outcasts, chandaalas (svapaakas), those afflicted with diseases that are punishments of former sins, crows, and insects.

Note: Thus chandaalas and svapaakas (another outcaste group beyond the pale of chaaturvarnya); since the place of the offering was just outside the Brahmana's house, and since the chandaalas, svapaakas, etc., could never aspire to come even within the Aryan (four caste) village, this sloka just tells the reader that the status of the chandaala/svapaaka/outcast was nothing more than that of the dogs.

Among the rules of conduct for a good brahmana, Manu lays down as under:-
न सम्वसेत् च पतितैर्न चाण्डालैर्नपुल्कसैः । न मूर्खैर्नाविलप्तैश्च नान्त्यैर्नान्त्यावसायिभिः ॥ ४-७९
4.79. Let him not stay together with outcasts, nor with Chandalas, nor with Pukkasas, nor with fools, nor with overbearing men, nor with low-caste men (antyaas), nor with Antyaavasaayins. Here Manu mentions "antyaavasaayins" as different from "antyas" or low-caste men.

In the section dealing with offsprings of the offsprings of inter-caste marriages, Manu says,
यथैव शूद्रो ब्राह्मण्याम् बाह्यम् जन्तुम् प्रसूयते । तथा बाह्यतरम् बाह्यश्चातुर्वर्ण्ये प्रसूयते ॥ १०-३०
10.30. Just as a Sudra begets on a Brahmana female a being which is excluded (from the Aryan community), even so (a person who is himself so) excluded procreates with (females of) the four castes (varnas), (sons) who are more (worthy of being) excluded (than he himself).

This is the origin of a group or caste or whatever one might call them, as the "fifth caste" (baahyaas). They were not allowed to live near any of the four castes and the burning place (smasaanam) was earmarked for them, outside the village, settlement of the Aryan community.

The groups antyaavasaayins and antyas got combined, in course of time, since both were outside the pale of Chaaturvarnya and Aryan settlements, and came to be denoted by the common word "antyaja".

These lowest group of human beings, cast outside the "chaaturvarnya" system of the Aryans, were generally known as "antyaja" as stated above. In Madras Presidency, they were originally grouped as "Paraiyas and kindred classes", which included (according to earlier references) the Pulayan, Chakkilian, and Thotti. This classification was replaced, probably for convenience, by the term "Panchamas" first in the Madras Census Report, 1871. Obviously, it must not have been an invention by a Britisher but of a native who was aware of this term being applied to denote the said classes. Since the Madras Presidency included, besides the present day T.N., other areas also, similarly disadvantaged groups or classes from the other areas also got included in the term "Panchamas". AFIK, this term was not current outside the Madras Presidency. In the north terms like "Dom, Domb" etc., were used, I think.
 
Ms Happy Hindu,

I believe in Indian constitution only and it supersedes all individual religious laws belonging to all religions.

For example a muslim woman divorcee is not entitled to compensation from her erstwhile husband as per Muslim Personal Law (popularly known as shariat law) but Supreme Court pronounced judgement in Shah Banu case that all Indian women irrespective of their faith are entitled for compensation from their erstwhile divorcee husbands.

There is no single Hindu law practiced throughout the country and there are several laws and practices prevailing in the country. A male child gets a right over ancestral property at the time birth in several parts of India except Bengal (Mitakshara School). In Bengal where Dayabagha school is practiced,a male gets a right over ancestral property only after the death of the father. In Kerala Nair community, Marumakka Daayam is practiced where a Son-in-law inherits the ancestral property. But according to my lawyers both boy and girl gets equal share of ancestral property as per Indian Laws. I already highlighted in another thread where our own CM, Mr.Karunanidhi is discriminating his own daughters Selvi and Kanimozhi in denying property rights.

I am interested in learning only Indian constitution and the laws enacted under it which are applicable for all citizens of the country without any discrimination. I have no legal background and learning it at this age is a very difficult proposition. But `ignorance of law is no excuse' as per the court decisions and every Indian citizen is suppose to know the law of the land. Let me atleast make a sincere attempt to learn the Indian laws which itself is going to be very difficult.

My question is not answered still. Those who claim that they have mastered Hindu scriptures enlighten me whether the fifth varna is mentioned in our scriptures. I just searched in the web and I got the opinion of Baba Saheb Ambedkar and reproduced here.

Personally I am interested in Gandhian philosophy and economics which one of my dalith friend Mr. Rangasamy Elango is doing.

http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4413-gandhian-economics-village-2.html

After successful implementation in Tiruvallur district, he is implementing the above in nearly thousand villages in Tamilnadu. I met him just two days back and we are regularly discussing in fine tuning the model.

I don't have either time or usage to read old scriptures. I am not visiting Madathipathis or God men as I have enough productive work in hand.

All the best

Shri RVR,

No one really cares about your personal opinion or mine. So no point in going on repeating things again and again.

I have highlighted the point in bold that you made, which obviously is sheer escapism. You know very well in your heart what the answers of mathadipathis will be.

You claim you have no usage for scriptures, but you call yourself a brahmin. According to you, you are proud to be a shudra. Please visit any brahmanical mutt as a shudra, and let us know what they say about your new-found shudra status -- ask them, that since you have become a shudra, what will be the caste of your children?


Manu was a kshatriya. 80 out of every 100 persons in the country do not know who these "brahminical gurus" are and they do not care to know either. They do not practice casteism because of any o0f these non-existent(as far as these people are concerned) gurus but because it is convenient for them and it protects their economic interests. These gurus who are in the periphery of the scheme of things, are an obsession only for the politicians who have an axe to grind. They see in these gurus a hatred object, and in whipping them an opiate which can be distributed to the gullible public to keep them for ever slaves of the hatred opium. HH are you really bothered about these gurus? Ask yourself this question and get a honest answer. How many times have you listened to their advice or teachings? Do you follow all that they say without questioning? and Yes. dont forget to do that. Ask atleast a 100 strangers u meet on the road and ask them individually whether he/she knows so and so as a guru. The answers you get will be revealing. I can post here the views of these gurus.These are not as casteist as you assume and you would like us believe.But who says their views matter? Only the disciples who are a woefully insignificant minority. Then where does your penchant for dragging these gurus here stand? In any case I did not expect this kind of "dare" challenges in this forum. They are usually raised in the street corner political meetings where hatred mongers sell the opiates liberally with a sweetener by name Tamil. .

You seem to have done a great deal of research before coming to the conclusion that Manu was a Kshatriya. How do you know Manu was a Kshatriya?

Anyways, i suppose the best thing to do wud be to ask your gurus. So, please cud you ask your guru(s) to know who wrote the dharmashastras, and let us know their answer here.

Did i ever say gurus are hatered objects? You have gone quite the way with your personal statistics of 80 out of 100, and your 'dare' challenge cr*p, etc....no need to characterise me, esp with things i did not say. Am well aware that all gurus are not the same.

Sri Sangom Sir,

The Sutras for Manava Dharma Sastra doesn't have the word Panchamas.

Both in Ramayana and Mahabaratha, we heard about Rakshashas, Asuras, Gandarvas etc.

Ravanan & his brothers are termed as Rakshashas. But Ravanan is a highly learned person and his weekness for other man's wife was the only problem.

Vibishana, inspite of being born in Rakshasha community displayed high level of maturity.

Bagasuran was an asura in Mahabaratha killed by Bheema Sena. But Bagasuran is a man eater.

Bheema Sena had a Gandarva marriage and Gadothkasan was his son.

But none of them were termed as `Panchamas'

The word Panchamas seems to be a latter day invention by British in 1871.


We have heard both Tiruppanazhwar and Nandanar stories but God himself intervened and corrected the wrong doings.

Please read the story of Sridhara Ayyaval of Tiruvisanallur dated around 16th century AD from the following weblink

FESTIVAL CELEBRATED IN KUMBAKONAM TEMPLES

Our own community members have displayed humanity to the best possible extent before British invasion.

May be due to the food habits of present day SC/ST, other communities were not mingling freely with them.

But discriminating `nari kuravaas' now in a public place is against the basic principles of the constitution. Today we have a `constitution' which is supreme and supersedes all other scriptures of all the religions.

It is happening in a state where the so called champions of social justice is ruling.

Please read my link of Ambedkar's views on `panchamas' which cannot be discarded just like that.

I personally feel that the so called `panchamas' are the creation British with the connivance of Justice party - predecessors of the present day Dravidian parties. The present Dravidian parties are silent on ill treatment done to the `Nari Kuravas'

Brahmins may be silent spectators all along as they were not the ruling class for more than 2000 years. Even today we are just silent spectators only.

Today also Brahmins have no problem in supporting a dalith leader like Mayavathi. But other communities are not having the same broad mind.

Personally I am supporting a dalith leader in his community service activities. But there are murmurs from other communities which I am ignoring.

Please look into whole thing objectively without any pre-conceived opinions.

All the best

Shri RVR,

You have already decided how the scriptures are. So, the best thing to do wud be to get confirmation if your views are correct or not.

And since its about scriptures, who can be the better persons to confirm stuff apart from your own mutt gurus. So, why don't you ask them their views on the panchamas and let us know.

Regards.
 
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Happy Hindu said"You seem to have done a great deal of research before coming to the conclusion that Manu was a Kshatriya. How do you know Manu was a Kshatriya?"

I think you are so confident that Manu cannot be a kshatriya,you are asking me this question. Please let me know where is it said that Manu was a Brahmin because that has been the thrust of your argument. Let me see how much time you have spent on research.

Happy hindu said:"Anyways, i suppose the best thing to do wud be to ask your gurus. So, please cud you ask your guru(s) to know who wrote the dharmashastras, and let us know their answer here."

Yeah my 'gurus' say it was not only brahmins who wrote the Dharma Shastras. Now what would you like to meet them and argue to prove any points?

Happy Hindu said"Did i ever say gurus are hatered objects?"

I do not get what you say. Did I accuse you of this? Get back your balance.

Happy Hindu said:" You have gone quite the way with your personal statistics of 80 out of 100, and your 'dare' challenge cr*p, etc....no need to characterise me, esp with things i did not say. Am well aware that all gurus are not the same."

I can use much worse language with asterisks. But I am from a higher breed and of far better upbringing. I dont do that. As I said try to get back your balance and get better control of yourself.And please dont use offensive language here and drag it down to the level of Periyar forums.
 
Dear HH, Greetings!

... Please visit any brahmanical mutt as a shudra, and let us know what they say about your new-found shudra status -- ask them, that since you have become a shudra, what will be the caste of your children?

Unconnected to this exchange between you and RVR, I think a court challenge to convert from Brahmin to Sudra will be an interesting one. To take away any accusation of ulterior motive one could forswear any reservation benefit. This should not be a problem for the courts as "Sudra" is not a caste listed under any of the caste groups that receive benefit. While the outcome may not be unpredictable - I expect the court to reject this petition -- the process can be quite revealing and instructive.

Also, leaving all this aside, there is no hurdle whatsoever for one to live the way of the supposed caste for the vocation they are engaged in. To take RVR's example, he does not need court's approval or direction to lead a life of a Sudra.


You seem to have done a great deal of research before coming to the conclusion that Manu was a Kshatriya. How do you know Manu was a Kshatriya?
IMO, whether Manu was a Kshatriya or not is besides the point. Whether the author was Brahmin or not, the opening verse of Manu text says some Maharishis approached Manu and he then dictated the DS to the Maharishees. Further, over history, Manu DS was variously praised as the epitome of righteousness by Brahmins -- see Sanakra Bashyam and Sri Bashyam. Today, as the entire world stands united in saying casteism is like racism, the Brahmnical Matams still cling to the old glory and refuses to abandon Manu DS. So, IMO, whatever the varna identity of the author may be, Manu DS is a millstone around the Brahminist's neck, nobody else's.


Did i ever say gurus are hatered objects? You have gone quite the way with your personal statistics of 80 out of 100, and your 'dare' challenge cr*p, etc....no need to characterise me, esp with things i did not say. Am well aware that all gurus are not the same.
HH, as far as I know, crap is only an euphemism for the four letter word that stands for feces. More on the usage of this euphemism can be found here. So, IMO, there was no need to mask the word. I may get some push back for saying this. But the fact is, characterizing someone else's argument in a nasty way and the context of your use of the word crap are completely different, but I am sure I will not be able to convince anyone here who will be doing the push back.

Cheers!
 
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Strange Logic or Logically illogical?
"Significantly, in 1985 ruling where execution by public hanging was declared unconstitutional, the court made the stinging observation that " a barbaric crime does not have to be met with barbaric penalty" (Ref: For a more humane view: The editorial the Hindu dated Aug 11 , 2010.) Immediately a question flashed in my mind what about private Hanging? Left to your imagination? I am sure most of the quick responders will also see this.

Now what is the crime of Manu? Segregating people on caste basis. This a barbaric crime as you can see by the response it evokes in these forum like Blood on Hand , Monster Created , Human excreta, Hang my head in Shame and what not Now how do you punish this? With Mandal ? This is also the same segregation of people on the very same line of caste! This is at odd with SC observation .What you do? Do not change the rule of the game Shift the Goal Post. Call it Affirmative Action ! in public declaration. & விஷத்த விஷத்தால முறிக்கணும், முள்ள முள்ளால எடுக்கணும் approach in private perceptions. Jambu:argue:
 
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Here is the full background of the news item (emphasis mine):-

"Chairman of the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) and former Chief Justice of India K. G. Balakrishnan's recent defence of the death penalty is bewildering. His “deterrent effect” argument is starkly at odds with the near universal understanding that the fundamental right to life implies, among others, the abolition of the death sentence. In the 1951 A. K. Gopalan case, the Supreme Court of India effectively allowed unlimited restrictions on the right to life and liberty, so long procedures prescribed by law were followed. In the Maneka Gandhi case some three decades later, however, the court limited the scope to those procedures that were “right, just and fair,” not “arbitrary, fanciful and oppressive.” Significantly, in a 1985 ruling where execution by public hanging was declared unconstitutional, the court made the stinging observation that “a barbaric crime does not have to be met with a barbaric penalty.” This is the sequence of illustrious verdicts that culminated in the apex court's landmark judgment limiting the award of the death penalty to the “rarest of rare cases.” To be sure, the letter and spirit of that ruling has largely informed judicial opinion and public debate on capital punishment ever since. The Supreme Court has displayed sagacity and restraint in its appellate jurisdiction, even if the lower courts have tended to hand down the death penalty more readily. Recall the initial verdict and the subsequent pronouncements in the Rajiv Gandhi assassination case...."

It willbe observed that the matter pertained to "execution by hanging in public" which was referred to as barbaric penalty and it did not criticize capital punishment per se. The very fact that the learned ex-CJ of the Supreme Court himself has emphasized the desirability of capital punishment should have made it clear to any one that the remarks in the 1985 judgement did not pertain to death by hanging but only to execution by public hanging. Manu denied with the force of law and more, that the Sudras should not aspire for anything, including any cash saving except servitude for the other three groups. Mandal does not mete out this treatment to Brahmins in an "eye for an eye, or tooth for a tooth" approach. If Mandal had indeed done so, none of us learned members would be indulging in forum posts like this but slogging away in some Sudra's house or farm like animals!That is why Manu's is a barbaric crime it still evokes responses from people with a heart, in these forum like Blood on Hand , Monster Created , Human excreta, Hang my head in Shame and what not.
 
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Dr Jambu Sir,

When the Scheduled Tribe community members are getting insulted in broad day light at the heart of Chennai, the so called reformers here are not bothered. As per the present law, the perpetrators of the crime could be punished today. All that is required is just to file a writ petition in Madras High Court through a lawyer against Tamilnadu Government referring the news item.

Prof Nara is willing to reward intercaste marriages couples in our Swayamvaram function at the rate of Rs.1000 per couple to the infinite levels. Let him engage a lawyer and fight the indiscrimination in the above case.

Ms Happy Hindu always quotes some scriptures from Manu which none of us know. Let her fight the present indiscrimination case as per the present laws. Manu shruthi could not be taken in a court of law as it is already over ruled by the constitution. But present discrimination could very well be tried both in a High court as well as in the Supreme court.

Discrimination of `Nari Kuravas' has happened under the rule of Honourable Chief Minister Mr.Karunanidhi. He holds the home portfolio controlling police department and he is the top most living disciple of EVR.

Since they are all Non Resident Indians, it is difficult to target them physically whereas the residents here like you and I may be targeted like Subramanyam Swamy.

All the best
 
hi RVR sir,a
my humble request you to only ONE WORD....RESTRAINT....i read all threads very carefully....so i never in discussion /debate

about caste/ varna....its very difficult in many aspects....TRUTH IS TRUTH....only manavarutham here..try to keep away...

there is no uniform civil code in india.......even i marry a SC/ST girl.....my kids never considered as SC/ST...like in USA immigration

law.... kids may be citizen....but still parents are non immigrant.....means kids can stay back in USA...parents has to go back to their

respective countries....here some supports/or against the law...but the reality truth is truth.....


regards
tbs
 
"Immediately a question flashed in my mind what about private Hanging? Left to your imagination? I am sure most of the quick responders will also see this."

"It willbe observed that the matter pertained to "execution by hanging in public" which was referred to as barbaric penalty and it did not criticize capital punishment per se

Now don"t you see a convergent point here. Same or similar punishment in Mandal approach? Basic principle of dividing people on caste line and on caste basis only without any other consideration like uniting them? without any solution for caste eradication? If this is not tit for tat what else is?


Let me know what is the purpose of Mandal To suggest ways to remove castes and create a caste less society or to perpetuate it? Is Mandal Modern Avatar of Manu?

Jambu
:nod:
 
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