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Are missionaries alone to be blamed?

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RVR

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All applications of the State Financial Corporation (TIIC) Tamilnadu Industrial Investment Corporation Limited, Chennai-35, has to fill a column asking about applicant's caste. A money lending institution is bothered about the caste of the applicant more than the viability of the project and capability of the promoter to run the business successfully and his honesty in repayment of the loans .

Borrowers irrespective of caste are forced to give an undertaking that they will employ certain persontage of people belonging to so and so classes.

There are separate financial institutions for Backward classes, Most Backward classes, Minorities and Daliths in Tamilnadu, who support them with margin money assistance, lower interest rate on term loans and other benefits.



TAHDCO

Government of Tamil Nadu - Citizens Charter

None of the brahmin businessman can avail the above benefits

Even if a brahmin in Tamilnadu wants to take risk, start a business unit creating employment in the state has to go through all these ordeals.

All the best
 
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ShivKC, i think i know who Sahana is (a long standing member using a proxy and copying my writing style, bcoz he does not want to offend RVR with his own handlename), but anyways, it is only a suspicion and i maybe wrong.

I request Praveen to check the IP address of Sahana and mine, and let ShivKC know whether they are the same or not.

Btw, are you not a proxy of Suresoo and Sesh?
HH,
You are one of the senior member in this forum, can you not carry some poise when writing?

...
 
All applications of the State Financial Corporation (TIIC) Tamilnadu Industrial Investment Corporation Limited, Chennai-35, has to fill a column asking about applicant's caste. A money lending institution is bothered about the caste of the applicant more than the viability of the project and capability of the promoter to run the business successfully and his honesty in repayment of the loans .
This can be easily solved if a brahmin is honest enough to change his caste as per his current occupation.

Borrowers irrespective of caste are forced to give an undertaking that they will employ certain persontage of people belonging to so and so classes.
At the first thot, i think this is a good one to have. Otherwise casteism will creep into employment, and everyone will employ only their own caste people.

There are separate financial institutions for Backward classes, Most Backward classes, Minorities and Daliths in Tamilnadu, who support them with margin money assistance, lower interest rate on term loans and other benefits.
There are several rich people among brahmins. Surely one of them can start a financial institution that gives money on lower interest rates along with other benefits (like the 'mercentile bank' does for nadars).

TAHDCO

Government of Tamil Nadu - Citizens Charter

None of the brahmin businessman can avail the above benefits
Am not sure why shd a brahmin avail benefits in TAHDCO meant for Adi-Davidar Housing and from BCMEDC which is meant to finance 5 occupations (petty trades, ISUs, transport, agriculture and artisans) amongst the backward classes and minorities.

Moreover BCMEDC is specifically meant for people from the Poverty line
and Double Poverty line. So obviously it is to help these lowest of the lows to get into some occupation mode, like farming, driving an autorickshaw, having a small shop, or doing handicrafts, etc.

A brahmin on the other hand can always fall back on his traditional occupation of priesthood. When vedapatshalas have 100 percent reservations on the priesthood occupation, this above does not seem to be a reason to claim discrimination.

Plus am told that brahmins of tamilnadu have always claimed to be a forward caste (they were keen on downgrading only NBs into backward classes). And well, the government seems to be classifying people based on such things. So we cannot blame the government as such i suppose.

Even if a brahmin in Tamilnadu wants to take risk, start a business unit creating employment in the state has to go through all these ordeals.
There are people who start a business despite all risks and ordeals.

Not only brahmins, there are other communities also that do not come under the Backward Caste lists. If they can do well in business, then am sure a brahmin has no reason to complain. And they do not receive any special financing from any financial institution either. Which is why all their moves are considered risky, including expansion plans, because they have no back up support. And if they fail, they have nothing left. Some succeed, some go bust. They merely blame it on fate and / or their bad moves. And certainly they are not blaming the government. Nor do they think that they are discriminated against. Probabaly they do not have that 'sense of entitlement' based on caste.
 
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Shri RVR,

I had a look at this one: TAHDCO, Tamil Nadu Adi Dravidar Housing & Development Corporation Limited

They seem to help in the land purchase, housing and development of Adi-Dravidars. Which is not a wrong thing. They have been marginalized throughout history. Atleast now, let them pick up some skills and be occupied productively somewhere.

And this one also has a list of occupations that the backward classes, minorities and denotified communities can do: Government of Tamil Nadu - Citizens Charter Which again, is a good thing to have to uplift them.

Your view is that yourself and your children have been discirminated against because they:
1) have to employ certain persontage of people belonging to so and so classes.
2) do not get loans on (caste-based) lower interest rates to start a business
3) do not get caste-based reservations in academic institutions

Am sorry sir, none of the above specifically discriminates against brahmins. And this cannot be called discrimination as such. Those people have every right to get those development opportunities.

There are businessmen from the kamma, balija, and reddy communities who do not get any of the above benefits either. And these people neither had priesthood to fall back upon nor cud they do anything after being reduced to poverty in the colonial times. They only thing they cud do is to accumulate money thru petty trades or education, and then start a business. If they succeeded in business well and good. If they do not, they do not complain about reservations, the government, caste system and so on...but yes, they blame fate or wrong business moves.
 
Btw, are you not a proxy of Suresoo and Sesh?

Shm happyhindu, I donot know who suresoo or sesh. I joined very recently and trying to go through old posts and getting a feel about each ones stand.anyways, if i may ask this personal question, are you a true Tamil Brahmin or a proxy? Somehow the stand you take gives me a sense of doubt
 
OP
OP
sangom

sangom

0
It is possible that the same people will sing carols the loudest when they go to a church and take part in festivities with keen interest. Perhaps they are visiting this temple only for the food. Perhaps they do not feel welcome to be involved in the prayers. Or perhaps they are maintaining a distance which they consider respectful.
Smt. HH,

We are not sure how many of these people have become Christians. Irrespective of that, they do not show any involvement in the religious part. It is a very small temple and all people have to simply throng before the small sanctum sanctorum. In other day-to-day activities they have dealings with the residents of the agrahaaram also. So, feeling unwelcome etc., is out of question IMO. It appears to be that they are simply not attracted by the high-caste god.

Well, one cud casually ask if one is going to church, in a gentle friendly way. Am not sure why wud casual talk incite any trouble. Possibly the real reason is that the hindus there do not care if the dalits are going to church also.
It should be remembered that the people there are all politically very conscious and any question of this sort, that too in the temple, is sure to be taken as offensive and aimed at segregating the non-hindu etc. The result will be chaos and pandemonium. As I said, the people are otherwise in contact but it is very difficult to identify whether they have joined Xianity. They don't come out with answers readily.

I hear the church fathers double as counsellors and that is why the community feeling in church attendees is strong. A maid told me that her husband, a former alcoholic, stopped drinking after they became christians because the church father counselled them. This church father was patient all thru the 2+ years it took for her husband to quit alcohol. Do hindus priests mediate in such things? Our attitude is always "it is their problem" -- as long as nothing troubles us and our people, our identity, our ego, our position, our prospects, our growth, our selves, our everything...
I fully agree. All that our hindu missions of various sorts are doing are still in the garb of condescention, not suited to give a message of equality.

Sir i humble disagree with this. Me thinks, even if we do not delve, the others might do so. It is better we take our history in our hands and be honest with it. We never know how a purana story or a itihasa incident might get utilized by a missionary for his 'preaching' pov.
I agree, even if we do not delve, others will. But we merely delve; do we have anything to counter the propaganda by the Missionaries that hindu religion is full of so many obscenities?

Am told sir, that the brahmins were the first to shift to english education in tamilnadu regions. It is sort of ironical that the ones who sought secular education under the british now demonise it.
I feel we should not mix up what our previous generations did, with what some may be feeling today. It is not the same individuals IMO.

Thankyou for introducing me to the blog. It is a perfectly written article, mature and sensible with no-frills and no-hangups. Me thinks sir, we have become conditioned due to foreign influences. We have become the sort of people who are ashamed of sex and sexuality. A far cry from those ancient hindus who veiwed, approached and experienced sex as experimentalists, spiritualists, etc. I was told that the souls of sages like to become conceived where they will have no family responsibility. At the same time, they may procreate, for a purpose (even if it be lust). It is a choice they make. And there is nothing really to be judgemental about it. Perhaps time, above all, decides things . If Vyasa had not been born, the Kurus wud not have been born, Mahabharat wud not have happened, Krishna wud have no role, we wud not have known the Bhagavad Gita and Kaliyuga wud not have begun.
The blog does not tell the whole story. If you read the full details, perhaps you will agree that such sort of fixation for the imaginary aspects of sex does not add any glory to our sages or rishis or the puranas which contain such fanciful accounts. I also don't subscribe to the view that "even if the rishis procreate out of lust, it is for a purpose" as though they knew it beforehand; they are as good or as bad as any ordinary mortal when they find an outlet for their lust. But we may attribute all that and the results to God; it is the same with all other mortals also, is it not?

Shri Sangom, the best i can do for now, to ease this off, is to avoid responding to shri RVR's posts. I have made one post to him above to know what discriminations he has experienced. When i respond i hope to do it with care.

But sir, i realised this one thing here...Anything that questions the vedas, puranas, brahmin identity, caste formation, varnas, etc is not tolerated easily by some people here. They have created a comfort zone for themselves mentally (stemming perhaps from faulty basis) and they do not want anyone to question it. It is ironical to think that they feel 'discriminated' against. Its like they want to have the cake, and eat it too and have all the cakes the same way.
You are a very senior and old member of this forum. Still, as an elderly person, I would like to suggest that we should give less importance to the person/s and more to the content of what they write. Even if we know for sure that there is dichotomy between what they say here and what they actually do in their personal lives, I feel we should desist,AFAP, from using that to win an argument, because what we are doing here is merely a clearing house for various view points, not a debate like those between our Acharyas and their opponents. Once we present our views by means of one or two posts, I think we should not persist on putting down the critic and may even allow others to trash our views, according to their methodology; it is for the general readers to judge whose ideas were cogent and convincing.
 
Shm happyhindu, I donot know who suresoo or sesh. I joined very recently and trying to go through old posts and getting a feel about each ones stand.anyways, if i may ask this personal question, are you a true Tamil Brahmin or a proxy? Somehow the stand you take gives me a sense of doubt
No am not a tamil brahmin. And as for my identity, praveen and very few forum members know it.

You do not need to be a tambram to take any particular stand. If there is a man lying on the road due to an accident i won't reach out to him AFTER asking his caste...
 
Sri.Shiv Sir, (and others, please)

Greetings. It is not required to be a Tamizh Brahmin to become a member in this forum. When you say 'True Tamizh Brahmin', most members in this forum would become in-eligible to fulfil the criteria. Let me explain my point of view, please - It is very hard to say who is a Brahmanan. If it is based purely by birth, at one stage our fore fathers were not brahmins. If 'true brahmin' gets defined by the way one lives, most caste brahmins don't live the way their fore-fathers lived. So, 'true brahmin' can be viewed from different angles.

Sow. Sri. Happy Hindu never claimed she belongs to brahmin caste. If you like to know about Sow. HH or any other member in this forum, you may either contact them through PM and ask; or even you may ask in the open forum. I think, if you ask politely enough, you are likely to get the reply.

Sow.HH said she need not know a person's caste before helping a person. She is correct. Many members hold such a position in this forum.

I humbly request you to look at members beyond caste/creed identifications, please.

Cheers!
 
Sri.Shiv Sir, (and others, please)


I humbly request you to look at members beyond caste/creed identifications, please.

Cheers!

Sh.raghy,If the domain name of our site itself is set with caste name, what is the relevancy in you humbly requesting me to look beyond caste,creed? Sounds strange. i thought this site is exclusively a hang out for tamilbrahmins , leave alone other brahmins. How come NB's are allowed here, and further to make fun and criticise.if i may know, what is the purpose of a NB joining this TB forum? What a NB can contribute towards develpment of TB community?
 
OP
OP
sangom

sangom

0
Shm happyhindu, I donot know who suresoo or sesh. I joined very recently and trying to go through old posts and getting a feel about each ones stand.anyways, if i may ask this personal question, are you a true Tamil Brahmin or a proxy? Somehow the stand you take gives me a sense of doubt
Shri Shiv,

The membership of this forum id open to all. It is not restricted to tambrams only. As for Smt. Happy Hindu, I am of the view that she has been bestowed, by God's grace, with more knowledge about our hindu scriptures than most of the tambram members (that includes this old man as well) are expected to know, by our ancient Varna system of duties. Hence it is our duty to learn as much from her posts here as we can.

Regarding the stand taken by her, I feel she is trying to show us how the hindu scriptures essentially viewed many of the topics which come under discussion here. It is the sheer ignorance of we tambrams about our spiritual and religious lore, that we may find the truth inconvenient or even appalling, at times. Somehow it has been very comfortable for brahmins (all over India) to be smug in the belief that whatever they believe is the truth and anything which tries to expose the truth or even goes against their comfort zones, is bad and untrue. That is mainly because most of us are like the Christian laity, know knowledge of their scriptures or ability to interpret those, only the freedom to recite by rote.
 
Smt. HH,

We are not sure how many of these people have become Christians. Irrespective of that, they do not show any involvement in the religious part. It is a very small temple and all people have to simply throng before the small sanctum sanctorum. In other day-to-day activities they have dealings with the residents of the agrahaaram also. So, feeling unwelcome etc., is out of question IMO. It appears to be that they are simply not attracted by the high-caste god.
But sir i thot Murugan is a popular deity across all castes...

It should be remembered that the people there are all politically very conscious and any question of this sort, that too in the temple, is sure to be taken as offensive and aimed at segregating the non-hindu etc. The result will be chaos and pandemonium. As I said, the people are otherwise in contact but it is very difficult to identify whether they have joined Xianity. They don't come out with answers readily.
This is a difficult situation. But once when we had visited the Dakshinamurthy temple in Alangudi, we saw 2 church fathers in their full white robes with a cross sign necklace coming and doing archanai to Guru bhagavan.

I agree, even if we do not delve, others will. But we merely delve; do we have anything to counter the propaganda by the Missionaries that hindu religion is full of so many obscenities?
Sir why should we consider them obscenities. So what if some folks then were hedonistic, experimentalistic, kinky, crazy, bohemian and so on. It was their way of experiencing life. And unless we experience things we do not outgrow them, do we...we might even feel like coming back in an other life to experience them...

I feel we should not mix up what our previous generations did, with what some may be feeling today. It is not the same individuals IMO.
This may be true for some, while others may not give it much importance. But we need not be ashamed or proud or anything, about what the ancients did. We just have to accept it that they lived a full life (perhaps better than the lives we live within our cocoons). And certainly they were experimentalists.

I heard that wandering sages were even cutting up dead bodies and studying them. And that is how Sushruta learnt his surgical techniques. These sages were like aghoras who tried to steal dead bodies from burial places. Me thinks the rest of the people might have originally even shunned such sages out of fear.

The blog does not tell the whole story. If you read the full details, perhaps you will agree that such sort of fixation for the imaginary aspects of sex does not add any glory to our sages or rishis or the puranas which contain such fanciful accounts. I also don't subscribe to the view that "even if the rishis procreate out of lust, it is for a purpose" as though they knew it beforehand; they are as good or as bad as any ordinary mortal when they find an outlet for their lust. But we may attribute all that and the results to God; it is the same with all other mortals also, is it not?
Sir, i feel no man is born without a reason, without a purpose. It is the man himself who has not realised the purpose of his birth. Once he does, he longer takes pride in temporal things. The body is not brahman.

So what if people are born from kama. Don't we treat kama as agni and maithuna as a havan. The hindus even deified the 'sense of Kama' into a god, Kamadeva. This too is treated as a divinity. The ancients did not seperate sexuality from sprituality.

If one has to approach spirituality truly, it cannot happen by 'suppressing' one aspect of life. Which is why the sages did not condone sex. Am still not able to understand why do we need to be ashamed of sex and sexuality.

You are a very senior and old member of this forum. Still, as an elderly person, I would like to suggest that we should give less importance to the person/s and more to the content of what they write. Even if we know for sure that there is dichotomy between what they say here and what they actually do in their personal lives, I feel we should desist,AFAP, from using that to win an argument, because what we are doing here is merely a clearing house for various view points, not a debate like those between our Acharyas and their opponents. Once we present our views by means of one or two posts, I think we should not persist on putting down the critic and may even allow others to trash our views, according to their methodology; it is for the general readers to judge whose ideas were cogent and convincing.
Thankyou sir. I shall keep this in mind. It is true that i forgot the diff b/w the posts and the poster. I was sort of irked that the poster brought the word 'missionary' in between somehow or the other indirectly more than a handful of times. Though it was not used a direct reference the allusion was more than obvious. I can only state that i am not a missionary. Am not a politician. Am a hindu. And i acknowledge that hindu history has not been as accomodative as it is portrayed. I acknowledge that sanatana does contain things which are considered anti-social today. It is just a matter of fact that such things exist. Am neither ashamed nor proud about it.

I believe in karma. Am fascinated with how god-constructs are conceived of. It also does not matter to me whether a god exists in the vedas or not. If i worship a god, say Lakshmi, with all my heart, i know that sincereity does not go unanswered. Even if my prayers are unanswered, it does not matter. I cannot give up on Lakshmi. She is my way of life. Just like my mother is mine. And am willing to welcome everyone who wishes to join in, to celebrate her love and presence, irrespective of creed, occupation, ethnicity or whatever.

Here we are told that we must not talk, some talks are useless, we must act or involve in charity and so on...Well what is good for the goose need not be the same for the gander....Each one is free to choose their topics, either to chat up or to act on them. And i promise i shall take utmost care while writing out my posts from now on.

Regards.
 

RVR

0
Only TIIC Tamilnadu Industrial Investment Corporation Limited, Chennai-35 is meant for all communities for applying loans for starting/expanding an industry in Tamilnadu.

Even here there is a column asking `whether you belong to such and such caste or not'

If the applicant is not belonging to such preferred caste, he has to bring in extra margins, pay higher rate of interest on loans and also offer more collateral securities as compared to the preferred castes.

Over and above all these things, at the time of signing loan documents, the applicant is asked to sign a commitment letter stating that they will employ certain percentage of persons belonging to certain castes.

It is a clear cut discrimination based on birth at every stage of the loan process.

Let the Government run separate financing institutions for SC/ST, Backward, Most Backward, Minorities etc and I am not at objecting to it. But a state level apex institution for financing the industries should not discriminate any body and the merit of the project proposal and honesty, integrity & capability of the promoter has to be assessed. Again he should be allowed to run his business professionally without giving any direction as to whom he should employ etc.

Not only Brahmins but all the forward communities are discriminated openly and we are all used to such discrimination for several decades.

In my village there is a temple where all the communities including daliths and brahmins worship. The main poojari is not a brahmin but still brahmins worship in the temple. In the annual temple festival, certain privileges has been extended to each community. For example it is a particular sect of daliths who prepare gruel and offer it the Goddess as Neivadhyam. This practice is going on for generations. If any other community offers to do it, daliths will not accept. Similarly no other caste can encroach the privileges other castes. But things are going on smoothly for several generations without any problem. If brahmins requests daliths to give up their privilege, they will not do it. At the same time they will not ask the privileges in the temple meant for brahmins.

In the same way, vedha patasalas run by smartha brahmins admit only smartha brahmin boys. Even within brahmin sects, only a battachariar is doing pooja in Perumal temple and ony a Gurukkal is doing pooja in a Sivan temple. They will not give up their rights infavour of the smartha brahmins. Preserving/Learning/Promoting all the four Vedhas is the duty of all smartha brahmins as prescribed by Sankara Bagavathbatha. Smartha brahmins runs vedha patasalas as a community goal and admit only smartha brahmin boys in those schools. Definitely they will not admit anybody other than a smartha brahmin in the school including other sects of brahmins. I don't know why this issue is raised again and again in this forum. Each caste is enjoying some previleges and don't allow some other caste to enter their exclusive territory. But at the same time they respect other castes and practice Sanadhana Dharma to the best possible extent.

All the best
 
TO ALL MEMBERS,
My grand daughter who is studying in a christian convent School asked me the meaning of "SANATHANA DHARMA".I could not give her a satisfactory explanation.Then she told me that her sanskrit teacher has explained the meaning of the term and recited a sanskrit verse.I am reproducing the same:
SATYAM BRUYAT PRIYUM BRUYATH NA BRUYATH SATYAM APRIYAM
PRIYAM CHA NANRUTHAM BRUYAT ESHA DHARMAH SANATHANA
She gave me the following meaning in English:
ONLY SPEAK THE TRUTH THAT IS PLEASANT TO OTHERS
DO NOT SPEAK THE TRUTH THAT MIGHT BE UNPLEASANT TO OTHERS
NEVER SPEAK UNTRUTH THAT IS PLEASANT TO OTHERS
THIS IS THE PATH OF THE ETERNAL MORALITY
CALLED 'SANATHANA DHARMA'.
Let us all follow the spirit of Sanathana Dharma while giving our views.
Regards,
 
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Only TIIC Tamilnadu Industrial Investment Corporation Limited, Chennai-35 is meant for all communities for applying loans for starting/expanding an industry in Tamilnadu.

If the applicant is not belonging to such preferred caste, he has to bring in extra margins, pay higher rate of interest on loans and also offer more collateral securities as compared to the preferred castes.

Not only Brahmins but all the forward communities are discriminated openly and we are all used to such discrimination for several decades.

All the best

sh.Rvr, similarly, if you are comfortable to share, could you please narrate the discrimination your children/cousins/grandchildren faced during the school &college admissions. What mode,type of education, school,college,marks they choose and came up in life sucessfully in life, inspite of all odds of discrimination.
 

RVR

0
Misidentification persons logging in here and calling somebody as a proxy of some body else is not correct. When I was not logging into this form for few months, I was mis-identified for somebody else and some other gentleman was called as my proxy. Subsequently expressing apologies is not curing the hurt.

தீயினால் சுட்டபுண் உள்ளாறும் ஆறாதே நாவினால் சுட்ட வடு

But after some time, the member repeats the same

Even yesterday, Sri Suresoo has been offended. He has already expressed his displeasure in this thread and I am sorry to say, no body seems to address his feelings.

Repeatedly a particular member is offending others by calling proxy etc. Is it correct?

<removed>

I wish members restrain from making such false allegations repeatedly.

All the best
 
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One Mr.DORAISWAMY working in our flats in CHENNAI(Sweeping and cleaning the floors in the compound area) one day announced that he and his wife have become christians and now attending the church regularly on sundays.I know him for the past 14 years.I do not know whether he was going to temples earlier.I asked him the reason for conversion and whether he got any money from someone he was just laughing and did not give me a reply.
In another thread I had explained how my colleague became a christian and helped in conversions of Poor Hindus to chritianity.It is done in such a way none comes to know beforehand.
In NORTH INDIA Hindus have also started working among Tribals just like missionaries and preventing conversions.Recent clashes in GUJARAT AND ORISSA among tribals is a case in point.Christians make hue and cry and internationalise the issue.
IN the Christian convent school in DELHI where my grand daughter is studying though majority of students are Hindus,every student is given a copy of BIBLE and encouraged to read.There is no objection if all religious texts books are supplied.PARENTS do not raise any objection as they are worried that their wards may be sent out of the school.
I had studied in St.Josephs, TIRUCHY in 1950s and we were never asked to read Bible.There was only one MORAL LESSON class.
The only way to prevent such activities of conversion is to prohibit remittances of money from foreign countries directly to Christian missionaries in India.I read recently in a website that 423 crores were remitted to Orissa to Christian missionaries from foreign countries just before the murder of a hindu swamiji who was working among the Tribals and preventing their cross over to Christianity.
 
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OP
OP
sangom

sangom

0
But sir i thot Murugan is a popular deity across all castes...
Smt. HH,

It is not Murugan, but Dharma Sasta, which later got identified with the now-popular Ayyappan. The dalits, I am told, have their own separate pantheon of divinities since they were not allowed to worship God in any of the forms reserved for the higher castes.

This is a difficult situation. But once when we had visited the Dakshinamurthy temple in Alangudi, we saw 2 church fathers in their full white robes with a cross sign necklace coming and doing archanai to Guru bhagavan.
That is strange news for me too! needs further study.

Sir why should we consider them obscenities. So what if some folks then were hedonistic, experimentalistic, kinky, crazy, bohemian and so on. It was their way of experiencing life. And unless we experience things we do not outgrow them, do we...we might even feel like coming back in an other life to experience them...
I think you are not taking into consideration the context. Here we are facing the Christian or Islamic proselytizers who essentially say to their target population, "look ! this is what the hindu religion contains. Do you think this is Godly or our scripture is more divine?". In such situations your type of justification will hardly work. Of course your justification does not convince me either. But we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

This may be true for some, while others may not give it much importance. But we need not be ashamed or proud or anything, about what the ancients did. We just have to accept it that they lived a full life (perhaps better than the lives we live within our cocoons). And certainly they were experimentalists.

I heard that wandering sages were even cutting up dead bodies and studying them. And that is how Sushruta learnt his surgical techniques. These sages were like aghoras who tried to steal dead bodies from burial places. Me thinks the rest of the people might have originally even shunned such sages out of fear.
I feel there is some mix-up here. My comments viz., "I feel we should not mix up what our previous generations did, with what some may be feeling today. It is not the same individuals IMO.", were in response to your, "Am told sir, that the brahmins were the first to shift to english education in tamilnadu regions. It is sort of ironical that the ones who sought secular education under the british now demonise it."

Sir, i feel no man is born without a reason, without a purpose. It is the man himself who has not realised the purpose of his birth. Once he does, he longer takes pride in temporal things. The body is not brahman.

So what if people are born from kama. Don't we treat kama as agni and maithuna as a havan. The hindus even deified the 'sense of Kama' into a god, Kamadeva. This too is treated as a divinity. The ancients did not seperate sexuality from sprituality.
I presume that you have read the whole "uparicara vasu" episode in original M.Bh (sacred-texts-com or elsewhere). If your above remarks are after that, I have nothing to say and you are free to hold your opinion.

But just to put forward my own ideas, how are we sure that no man (or for that matter, no living entity) is born without reason, unless we are referring to the most incontrovertible cause viz., virus replication in a host cell to bacterial spores or binary fission, to mammalian reproduction, which are the very visible reason? As to "purpose", is it not possible that lives are simply that and nothing more? Can we think of purposes when lakhs perish in earthquakes, tsunamis, plague, wars, etc? If a 'purpose' is admitted for argument's sake at least, how can we justify these calamities as purposes unless the maker is one who finds pleasure and satisfaction, like Jehovah, in such destructive acts?

If one has to approach spirituality truly, it cannot happen by 'suppressing' one aspect of life. Which is why the sages did not condone sex. Am still not able to understand why do we need to be ashamed of sex and sexuality.
Here the Uttaramimamsa of AdiSankara (if that definition is acceptable) is at loggerheads with your dictum. Hence it will be necessary for people to say Purvamimamsa is better. Is my opinion right?

...Here we are told that we must not talk, some talks are useless, we must act or involve in charity and so on...Well what is good for the goose need not be the same for the gander....Each one is free to choose their topics, either to chat up or to act on them. And i promise i shall take utmost care while writing out my posts from now on.

Regards.
Thank you HH.
 

RVR

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sh.Rvr, similarly, if you are comfortable to share, could you please narrate the discrimination your children/cousins/grandchildren faced during the school &college admissions. What mode,type of education, school,college,marks they choose and came up in life sucessfully in life, inspite of all odds of discrimination.

Shri ShivKC,

All my children pursued CBSE stream and I avoided state stream right from the beginning since 69 percentage reservation was prevailing at the state level. At the time of admission to the schools, Central Government educational institutions had just 22 percentage reservation for SC/ST only and remaining 78 percentage was available for open competition. There is a risk in CBSE stream where scoring marks at the school final exam is not all that easy as compared to State School Stream. If the candidate fails to clear all India competitive exams like IIT Entrance, AIEEE etc, then he will find it difficult to get into good engineering colleges at the State level as his marks will be less as compared to State syllabus students. At the time of initial school admission, we don't know what will happen at the school final level.

Both my sons didn't clear all India competitive exams and I put them in three year B Sc course. My elder son did MBA subsequently at a top ranking business school outside India and is presently working as Managing Director of a retail chain in gulf at the age of 27. He is not at all interested in marriage and is interested in his career only.

My second son (age 25) did post graduation at National University of Singapore and is a permanent resident of Singapore. He has left his job at Singapore, back in India and is about to start a retail chain along with my elder son. My elder son will continue his job in Gulf for some more time and my younger son will manage the show here. I have given full freedom to both of them and I am sure they will succeed in their venture.

My daughter cleared AIEEE exam and is doing her final year degree at a National Institute of Technology. She has been awarded scholarship by Government of India. Now 49 percent reservation is prevailing at all India level also but she has managed to squeeze through. Now she is looking to go abroad for higher education.

Brahmin students mostly avoid medical nowadays. Getting into a good private engineering college is not at all difficult if they score well. Otherwise they can do three year degree course and pursue higher education anywhere in the world. Only proper planning is required with contingency plans. Accountancy qualifications are open to everybody and it offers excellent career scope. They are very cost effective . One need not take up practice and can join multi national companies with good salaries.

All the best
 
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In delhi I noticed another trend.Every family where both husbands and wives go for work
prefer to have a full time servant.Many Christians work as agents(whether legally/illegally)
and bring poor girls(aged between 15to20 years) from Bihar and Jharkand.Most of them get converted by these agents and these girls work mostly in Hind houses.The contract is for 11 months.The remuneration of the girl varies between Rs.2500 to Rs.5000 per month according to their experience.The agent gets rs.18000 per girl as one time commission.Recently I came to know from one girl that the agent earns about Rs.3,60,000 per annum as they can easily bring poor girls fro B,J or W.B and give to families who are in need of such help.
One SUNDAY Morning I met an aged man like me returning from RSS SAKA meeting as to why they should not do such service and help the community.He had no answer.
 
OP
OP
sangom

sangom

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...In the same way, vedha patasalas run by smartha brahmins admit only smartha brahmin boys. Even within brahmin sects, only a battachariar is doing pooja in Perumal temple and ony a Gurukkal is doing pooja in a Sivan temple. They will not give up their rights infavour of the smartha brahmins. Preserving/Learning/Promoting all the four Vedhas is the duty of all smartha brahmins as prescribed by Sankara Bagavathbatha. Smartha brahmins runs vedha patasalas as a community goal and admit only smartha brahmin boys in those schools. Definitely they will not admit anybody other than a smartha brahmin in the school including other sects of brahmins. I don't know why this issue is raised again and again in this forum. Each caste is enjoying some previleges and don't allow some other caste to enter their exclusive territory. But at the same time they respect other castes and practice Sanadhana Dharma to the best possible extent.

All the best
Dear Shri RVR,

I presume you are referring to the discrimination against brahmins. I feel that when we consider the conversion problem, we invariably come to the issue of dalits being the largest target group for conversions. Then we go to analyzing why they do so. That leads us to our ancient varna system, dharmasastras, the untouchability, etc., etc. In such a stage we start with the discrimination brahmins are now being subjected to.

I do not think any other section of hindus is so much exercised by the conversions; they are concentrating in strengthening their respective castes and its cohesion rather than bother about the overall hindu configuration. It is perhaps because of our peculiar intellectual obsession that one member or another introduces this topic and we tend to discuss it very energetically, but without any commensurate action.

Perhaps it will be a good idea to follow Shri Hoover's wise counsel here and concentrate on what is needed for the tambram/brahmin community and leave the conversion topic to the political parties/govt., rather than dvelve on the conversion topic.

I, on my part, will stop posting on any such topic in future.
 

RVR

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Dear Shri RVR,

I presume you are referring to the discrimination against brahmins. I feel that when we consider the conversion problem, we invariably come to the issue of dalits being the largest target group for conversions. Then we go to analyzing why they do so. That leads us to our ancient varna system, dharmasastras, the untouchability, etc., etc. In such a stage we start with the discrimination brahmins are now being subjected to.

I do not think any other section of hindus is so much exercised by the conversions; they are concentrating in strengthening their respective castes and its cohesion rather than bother about the overall hindu configuration. It is perhaps because of our peculiar intellectual obsession that one member or another introduces this topic and we tend to discuss it very energetically, but without any commensurate action.

Perhaps it will be a good idea to follow Shri Hoover's wise counsel here and concentrate on what is needed for the tambram/brahmin community and leave the conversion topic to the political parties/govt., rather than dvelve on the conversion topic.

I, on my part, will stop posting on any such topic in future.

There are some privileges exclusively extended to daliths in my village which I have mentioned in my posting. They will not agree to give up or change or swap those privileges to any other community. Almost all the communities will try to preserve their privileges and may not give up just like that.

Yesterday I wrote that almost one third of the Indians are illiterates which includes daliths to a great extent. Instead of attempting to give good education to them and make them live a honorable life, what is the use of suggesting vedic patasala to them. As I wrote earlier, Hindu religion is a name given to us by some outsiders. We follow sanadhana dharma only in which each community/caste practices its own way of life. While all the communities/castes can pursue formal education and come up in life, interfering in the privileges of another community/caste is not at all correct.

My point is missionaries are misleading these deprived sections which we should prevent immediately and guide them properly to develop good skills and formal education. I can request the Swamiji in charge of the school to teach vedhas to the fishermen community children. But will it help them in come up in life. Already they are finding it difficult to cope up with the formal education and we are breaking our heads as to how to solve the problem.

Instead attempting to encroach the privileges of individual castes, let us try to impart good formal education to deprived communities and help them come up in life.

All the best
 
Shri ShivKC,

All my children pursued CBSE stream and I avoided state stream right from the beginning since 69 percentage reservation was prevailing at the state level.

Both my sons didn't clear all India competitive exams and I put them in three year B Sc course. My elder son did MBA subsequently at a top ranking business school outside India and is presently working as Managing Director of a retail chain in gulf at the age of 27. t

Sh.rvr, thank you for the detailed share of personal life. I am eager to know only about the discrimination part.

Which college/city both sons did Bsc & mba? was there any discrimination? how you got admission to Bsc?.. if so, with all those discrimination, how you son jumped up the ladder of becoming a M.D at this young age. your experince share may be helpful to younger generations of next. thank u,
 

RVR

0
Sh.rvr, thank you for the detailed share of personal life. I am eager to know only about the discrimination part.

Which college/city both sons did Bsc & mba? was there any discrimination? how you got admission to Bsc?.. if so, with all those discrimination, how you son jumped up the ladder of becoming a M.D at this young age. your experince share may be helpful to younger generations of next. thank u,

Shri ShivKC,

Getting admission in a three year degree course in a fairly decent college for boys in Chennai City is not at all difficult. Most of the three year degree courses are offered on self financing stream only and there is no government reservation rules applies for three year courses if Govt doesn't do financial support.

My son did MBA outside India.

All the best
 
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