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Missionaries are to Blame

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Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

I completely agree with you that anti-brahmanism has been the most potent in Tamilnadu.

In Andhra, i have not heard of atrocities on brahmins so far. There maybe comments (the kind that is there for other castes also like 'gundu chetty'), but never heard of physical atrocities.

AFAIK, the only caste violence (for varna claims) was between komatis and niyogis. And here too vaidikis supported komatis. So all sections of brahmins were not inviting animosity. Moreover the varna claims and fights were restricted to only one small place (masulipatnam). Niyogis in other places across andhra were not behaving like those of masulipatnam. So these things were not wide spread.

IMO (and this is just my personal feeling), anti-brahmanism did not take off in andhra for 2 reasons.

One, telugu culture is not divided between NB and Brahmin on unique basis (ex: in tamil there is something called 'vanakkam' but in telugu there is only one namaskaram and there is no unique word in 'pure-telugu' for namaskaram).

In TN, the tamilians can tend to be purists wrt language which can make some folks rather parochial. They believe there was some 'pure tamil culture' which was uninfluenced by brahmins. This may be hogus-pogus, but tamilains have written and spoken reams on it. On the other hand, in telugu people no such basis exists even for hypothetical ideology creation. There is no literature that points out to the existence of a 'pure telugu culture' at any point in history. Even if there was anything like that, perhaps the assimilation was full and complete.

Second reason is reg the temple land lease. Am told the landed non-brahmins used to 'own' the lands on which temples were built. So the brahmins still had to depend on the landlords.

But sir, i think the main reason is that telugu brahmins as a crowd tend to be the soft type (the alavoda pesuradhu types / ppl of limited speech). Perhaps am generalising too much, but we do not get to hear of a brahmin in the telugu regions putting down a man with the term 'sudra' derisively either in schools or elsewhere during the colonial times...but in the tamil regions, we hear that brahmins did not hesitate to use the term 'sudra' as a name-calling word...perhaps these things went into public memory...

But by any stretch, physical violence should not have come about. And this is where i think political leaders failed. In the case of EVR, he had money, popularity, political connections at his disposal. He could have certainly made it a non-violent social movement. There was no need to go cutting poonuls and garlanding idols. Methinks he lost the support of non-political NBs due to such things. Plus, i feel the public sentiment was not prepared for atheism yet at that time, and that too from a non-religious socio-political platform.

Regards.
 
Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

I completely agree with you that anti-brahmanism has been the most potent in Tamilnadu.

In Andhra, i have not heard of atrocities on brahmins so far. There maybe comments (the kind that is there for other castes also like 'gundu chetty'), but never heard of physical atrocities.

AFAIK, the only caste violence (for varna claims) was between komatis and niyogis. And here too vaidikis supported komatis. So all sections of brahmins were not inviting animosity. Moreover the varna claims and fights were restricted to only one small place (masulipatnam). Niyogis in other places across andhra were not behaving like those of masulipatnam. So these things were not wide spread.

IMO (and this is just my personal feeling), anti-brahmanism did not take off in andhra for 2 reasons.

One, telugu culture is not divided between NB and Brahmin on unique basis (ex: in tamil there is something called 'vanakkam' but in telugu there is only one namaskaram and there is no unique word in 'pure-telugu' for namaskaram).

In TN, the tamilians can tend to be purists wrt language which can make some folks rather parochial. They believe there was some 'pure tamil culture' which was uninfluenced by brahmins. This may be hogus-pogus, but tamilains have written and spoken reams on it. On the other hand, in telugu people no such basis exists even for hypothetical ideology creation. There is no literature that points out to the existence of a 'pure telugu culture' at any point in history. Even if there was anything like that, perhaps the assimilation was full and complete.

Second reason is reg the temple land lease. Am told the landed non-brahmins used to 'own' the lands on which temples were built. So the brahmins still had to depend on the landlords.

But sir, i think the main reason is that telugu brahmins as a crowd tend to be the soft type (the alavoda pesuradhu types / ppl of limited speech).
Smt Happy Hindu,

My comments were based on my memory of a few blogs purportedly written by a Telugu brahmin. He was saying that atrocities of the TN type were/are committed against brahmins there also. But since you will have more authentic information, I agree with you.

I had read somewhere that in one famous Siva temple atop a hill, in Andhra, a certain hill tribe still have the right to do pooja in the sanctum sanctorum for two months around Sivaratri (one month before and one month after); during the rest of the year bahmins do the pooja. Do you have details?

IMO, the claim of a pure Tamil is not completely untrue. It seems the Chozhanadu brahmins were brought from north India, though there might have been a sprinkling of vedic brahmins in dravida nadu even in earlier (Sangam) times. Perhaps you have also read about these.
 
Sri. Sangom asked (Sow. HH!) -

I had read somewhere that in one famous Siva temple atop a hill, in Andhra, a certain hill tribe still have the right to do pooja in the sanctum sanctorum for two months around Sivaratri (one month before and one month after); during the rest of the year bahmins do the pooja. Do you have details?
Sri. Sangom Sir, Greetings. (Sow. HH, kindly pardon me for barging in). I think you are mentioning about Srisailam temple. I could be wrong though.

The most appealing significance of this temple is that anyone of any cast and creed can touch the deity and worship.


Temples of Andhra Pradesh - Srisailam Temple - Temples Of India @ newkerala.com

Some pictures.....(some of the pictures seem to be personal..)

srisailam temple - Google Search

Cheers!

 
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Smt Happy Hindu,

My comments were based on my memory of a few blogs purportedly written by a Telugu brahmin. He was saying that atrocities of the TN type were/are committed against brahmins there also. But since you will have more authentic information, I agree with you.

I had read somewhere that in one famous Siva temple atop a hill, in Andhra, a certain hill tribe still have the right to do pooja in the sanctum sanctorum for two months around Sivaratri (one month before and one month after); during the rest of the year bahmins do the pooja. Do you have details?

IMO, the claim of a pure Tamil is not completely untrue. It seems the Chozhanadu brahmins were brought from north India, though there might have been a sprinkling of vedic brahmins in dravida nadu even in earlier (Sangam) times. Perhaps you have also read about these.

Dear Sir,

My interaction is limited and i also depend on books. I do not know of any atrocities commited on brahmins in the andhra regions so far. I request you to kindly provide me the blog link so that i can take a look at it. The reality is that there are many school drop outs amongst telugu brahmins (vaidikis esp) in the rural areas. It may be possible that these children have a sense of entitlement reg their brahmin birth...perhaps they feel bitter for not getting what they think is their due status and recognition. And have ended up creating gossip. But AFAIK, am sure there has been no physical violence in those regions.

Reg the Chenchus and Srisailam temple, it is not uncommon. There are small temples also around the Narasimha kshetram areas where the chenchus have the first right of worship. The Saora tribe are priests in the Puri Jagannatha temple. They function alongside the brahmin priests. In the northern andhra and orissa regions, I heard there is not much caste discrimination (caste exists but no one feels discriminated against). But missionaries play havoc there. I heard it is very easy to get fake caste certificates in orissa if one is a christian. Most of the violence is created there because people convert to christianity only to get a SC / ST certicate but by all means they are hindus in practice. Its a complex situation.

I completely agree with you reg the misplaced 'purist' notion of tamilians. To me, they perhaps are most likely to be the old irano-aryan asuric (pro-shukra) tribes that took to farming and invoked their god and king, indra for rain (for a good harvest).

Regards.
 
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I

Iyer

Guest
It is said, "Mullai mullal edukkavendu". You can remove thorn using another thorn. Instead of blaming the missionaries, why don't we do what they do. Demonstrate the Love of God to fellow Hindus, especially the Dalits, provide them free education, bring them to our home, make them sit with us and sup with us, educate them on cleanliness, neatness, ethics, etiquettes, culture, virtues, values etc. I trust that would go a long way in winning their trust. Missionaries demonstrate Love and Power. Let us demonstrate more Love and Power. Is it a great challenge???????
 

kunjuppu

Active member
It is said, "Mullai mullal edukkavendu". You can remove thorn using another thorn. Instead of blaming the missionaries, why don't we do what they do. Demonstrate the Love of God to fellow Hindus, especially the Dalits, provide them free education, bring them to our home, make them sit with us and sup with us, educate them on cleanliness, neatness, ethics, etiquettes, culture, virtues, values etc. I trust that would go a long way in winning their trust. Missionaries demonstrate Love and Power. Let us demonstrate more Love and Power. Is it a great challenge???????

:) :) :)
 
HHJi I have a few thoughts about your post to Sangomji.

Dear Sri Sangom Sir,

I completely agree with you that anti-brahmanism has been the most potent in Tamilnadu.

In Andhra, i have not heard of atrocities on brahmins so far. There maybe comments (the kind that is there for other castes also like 'gundu chetty'), but never heard of physical atrocities.

There are some but these are few and far between and more verbal/jocular than physical as you've said.

AFAIK, the only caste violence (for varna claims) was between komatis and niyogis. And here too vaidikis supported komatis. So all sections of brahmins were not inviting animosity. Moreover the varna claims and fights were restricted to only one small place (masulipatnam). Niyogis in other places across andhra were not behaving like those of masulipatnam. So these things were not wide spread.

IMO (and this is just my personal feeling), anti-brahmanism did not take off in andhra for 2 reasons.

One, telugu culture is not divided between NB and Brahmin on unique basis (ex: in tamil there is something called 'vanakkam' but in telugu there is only one namaskaram and there is no unique word in 'pure-telugu' for namaskaram).

I agree with this completely. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a difference or much of a difference if any between Brahmin Telugu and NB Telugu. From what I've seen they all speak the same. Although Hyderabadi telugu is difference from coastal Andhra side.

In TN, the tamilians can tend to be purists wrt language which can make some folks rather parochial. They believe there was some 'pure tamil culture' which was uninfluenced by brahmins. This may be hogus-pogus, but tamilains have written and spoken reams on it. On the other hand, in telugu people no such basis exists even for hypothetical ideology creation. There is no literature that points out to the existence of a 'pure telugu culture' at any point in history. Even if there was anything like that, perhaps the assimilation was full and complete.

Second reason is reg the temple land lease. Am told the landed non-brahmins used to 'own' the lands on which temples were built. So the brahmins still had to depend on the landlords.

But sir, i think the main reason is that telugu brahmins as a crowd tend to be the soft type (the alavoda pesuradhu types / ppl of limited speech). Perhaps am generalising too much, but we do not get to hear of a brahmin in the telugu regions putting down a man with the term 'sudra' derisively either in schools or elsewhere during the colonial times...but in the tamil regions, we hear that brahmins did not hesitate to use the term 'sudra' as a name-calling word...perhaps these things went into public memory...

I have relatives and family of both sides and I can clearly see this. Telugu Brahmins are more naive and as you say soft. In fact this is probably because telugu brahmins don't/never had the same clout, success and ambition as that of tamil brahmins. Telugu Brahmins as a community were always poor, laid back and unless the child is really very bright then only they'd be successful. As opposed to tamil brahmins who would push their kid maximum. I personally think telugu brahmins would do well to learn some shrewdness and aspiration of tamil brahmins especially Palghat iyers :)

Regards.
 
My Reply to Smt HHji,

Greetings HHji... Well... when there is a contradiction between the Vedas and Smritis... then the Vedas must be taken into account... Vedas recognize the worth of labour. But... one question remains... we allowed the Charvakas, Miamsas and Lokahitas to live... did any society allowed them to live, eg.. take the instance of witch hunt and Inquisition...? Ok as for answering your questions..

And I do not follow Manu Smrithi... so I do not care about it...

Btw, you often quote Sikhism. So you shd know that most Sikhs are low-caste converts. And these low-castes fought against the mughals to preserve their Sikh faith (which also includes their sense of equality before god in sikhism)

Do you know that the Majority of the Sikhs are Jats. Sikh politics itself is influenced by caste... The Khatri and Arouras are the high caste Sikhs to which the Gurus themselves belonged. The Gurus themselves positioned their own caste persons as the next Gurus... And then comes the Jat Sikhs (they are not low castes...) . Finally we have the Dalits... ie the Mazabhi siksh i.e. Sikhs by religion alone... (Khansi Ram Singh is a Mazhabi). And I also say... Sikhism is a pure Hindu sect... plain and simple... I can take reference from Dasam Granth about the caste based discriminations...

बरन बरन अपुनी क्रित लाए ॥ चार चार ही बरन चलाए ॥ छत्री करैं बि्प्र की सेवा ॥ बैस लखै छ्त्री कह देवा ॥८३८॥
He caused every caste to do its duties and set in motion Varnashram Dharma; Kshatriyas began to serve the Brahmin and the Vaishyas considered the Kshatriyas as gods.838.

If you want more proof... I'll calarify you.

The Khalistani movement is failure because of the Sikh's inherent Hinduness.

For reference please read 8. Are Sikhs Hindus? by Koenraad Elst.

I wonder why do not ‘brahmins’ ask the ‘dalits’ themselves why do they convert? I wonder why ‘low-castes’ convert even if they are well-off, if it were due to poverty alone...

Remember, when western education started to set in... India started to bleed... and her poverty rose tremendously. This was the time, when the missionaries started to proselytize. Many poor among the people (even Brahmans too) were converted... Do you know that the Bhil rebellion (1822-1857) was due to missionary activities in the Tribal belt of Orissa?

Even under the muslim rule... people got their full share of food...

Sorry to spoil your comfort zone Srikrish. Methinks brahmins brought upon anti-brahmanism on themselves, in not so simple ways


I agree
may i know what storm did hinduism weather by ‘retreating into its caste structure’?
The islamic onslaught.

THe Chamar rebellion...
The Satnami revolt occurred in the reign of the Moghul Emperor Aurungzeb. Many Hindus resented Aurungzeb's strict Islamic policies-which included reviving the hated Islamic Jiziya tax (poll tax on non-Muslim subjects), banning music and art, and destroying Hindu temples. The revolt began in 1672 when a Moghul soldier killed a Satnami. Other Satnamis took revenge on the Moghul soldier, and in turn the Moghul soldiers went about repressing the Satnamis. The result was that about 5,000 Satnamis were up in arms. They routed the Moghul troops situated in the town, drove away the Moghul administrators and set up their own administration in its place. The uprising gained the enthusiasm of Hindus in Agra and Ajmer also. Though totally lacking in weaponry and money, the Satnamis inflicted several defeats on the Moghul forces. The contemporary Moghul chronicler, Saqi Mustaid Khan, expressed amazement as to what came over this "destitute gang of goldsmiths, carpenters, sweepers and tanners and other… artisan castes that their conceited brains became so overclouded? Rebellious pride having found a place in their brains, their heads became too heavy for their shoulders." The resentment of the Satnami's against the Moghul persecution meant that they even enacted revenge by destroying mosques in the area. It was only with great difficulty that any Muslim soldiers could be brought to face the Satnamis, such was the wrath of the Satnamis at the time.

Sorry Srikrish I think the nation will prosper if ‘caste-system’ is done away with

Ofcourse yes. I correct myself. Sorry for the outburst. Please forgive me.

And have you read the dharmashastras how a slave must be treated in “hindusim” ?
Shri HHji... I always give precedence to Ved as suggested by Bheeshma. Vedas had high respect for labor. If you want then I'll quote. I'll do a research and will come with proofs.

Finally... Thanks for spending time and replying to my post.

Sorry about the previous post.. It was an outburst.
But Varna is not bad. Yes... birth based caste system has superseded the merit based Varna order.
 

RVR

0
Four lakh Kashmiri pandits have been thrown out of their residences and living in pitiable conditions even now. They are all brahmins. I wish people notice such a crime in the history of India and World happening right now is discussed here.

Arundhathi Roy, a born Christian, is supporting the separatists who are responsible for an inhuman act.

Are missionaries behind Arundhathi Roy?

All the best
 
OP
OP
S

ShivKC

0
Arundhathi Roy, a born Christian, is supporting the separatists who are responsible for an inhuman act.

Are missionaries behind Arundhathi Roy?

All the best

Arundhathi Roy herself is a missionary. Her mother mary roy is a Kerala Syrian Christian who won a lawsuit in 1986, against the inheritance legislation of her Keralite Syrian Christian community in the Supreme Court. The judgement ensured equal rights for Syrian Christian women, with their male siblings in their ancestral property.

Arundhathi he spent her childhood in Aymanam in Kerala, and went to school at Corpus Christi, Kottayam, followed by the Lawrence School, Lovedale, in Nilgiris, Tamil Nadu, and sure there she would have been doped with missionary ideology
 

RVR

0
Arundhathi Roy herself is a missionary. Her mother mary roy is a Kerala Syrian Christian who won a lawsuit in 1986, against the inheritance legislation of her Keralite Syrian Christian community in the Supreme Court. The judgement ensured equal rights for Syrian Christian women, with their male siblings in their ancestral property.

Arundhathi he spent her childhood in Aymanam in Kerala, and went to school at Corpus Christi, Kottayam, followed by the Lawrence School, Lovedale, in Nilgiris, Tamil Nadu, and sure there she would have been doped with missionary ideology

Probably Missionaries could not digest the calm atmosphere in which Ayodhya verdict was received by Hindus and Muslims. Hindu-Muslim unity could not be tolerated by the missionaries.

Missionaries always create trouble from the behind the scenes and probably Arundhathi Roy is their tool now.

Let us understand the true colour of the missionaries.

All the best
 
I agree with this completely. Also correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think there is a difference or much of a difference if any between Brahmin Telugu and NB Telugu. From what I've seen they all speak the same. Although Hyderabadi telugu is difference from coastal Andhra side.
Dear Amala,

Telugu varies across regions. There is a telangana / rayalaseema version which is considered rustic by ppl in vishakhapatnam and those regions. The hyderabadi version is heavily influenced by 'urdu' (a lucknowi muslim may not consider it urdu though). The warangal and northern andhra sides are influenced by hindi (there, the usual word for road is 'sadak' and fast is 'jaldi').

Brahmins tended to use sanskrit words in telugu. However since telugu itself is considered to be sanskrit-based the difference does not tend to stand out starkly. People wud assume they speak a cleaner form of telugu minus coloquial usage (which anyone else also cud speak).

I have relatives and family of both sides and I can clearly see this. Telugu Brahmins are more naive and as you say soft. In fact this is probably because telugu brahmins don't/never had the same clout, success and ambition as that of tamil brahmins. Telugu Brahmins as a community were always poor, laid back and unless the child is really very bright then only they'd be successful. As opposed to tamil brahmins who would push their kid maximum. I personally think telugu brahmins would do well to learn some shrewdness and aspiration of tamil brahmins especially Palghat iyers :)

Regards.
Telugu brahmins did have clout in the past. It is said that practically all of the durgadandanayakas (military nayakas of forts) in the vijayanagar empire were telugu brahmins. However, the mainstay of telugu brahmins used to be art forms. And in that they used to be very succesful. Their contributions to all art forms (esp literature and music) is immeasurable. They were also sought after sanskrit pundits. But they did not switch over to english education early. I think that was the only mistake they made. I heard that even till the 1970s many telugu brahmins were still going to telugu medium schools.

Many dwindled into poverty after the art and literature patrons disappeared. However, it is quite strange that the majority of telugu brahmins did not feel tempted enuf to leave their traditional jobs in colonial times. But i suppose today all of them recognize the value of secualr education and are coming out of traditional occupations (though i do not think that is the way to go, a man can remain in his traditional occupation and still be well off).

The big difference am told is that they did not use pride and position to put down people. And that did go a long way. I do not think people become ambitious or naive due to caste. Methinks, ambition is a good thing as long as it is healthy...

I realised that people in the past did not really bother about the success, capabilities, etc in others. People generally felt free to live they way they wanted to...methinks problems started and materialized politically after the brahmin leadership started defining varnas of others, while the followers started deriding others wrt caste.....all very unwanted really...

Regards.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Arundhathi Roy herself is a missionary. Her mother mary roy is a Kerala Syrian Christian who won a lawsuit in 1986, against the inheritance legislation of her Keralite Syrian Christian community in the Supreme Court. The judgement ensured equal rights for Syrian Christian women, with their male siblings in their ancestral property.

Arundhathi he spent her childhood in Aymanam in Kerala, and went to school at Corpus Christi, Kottayam, followed by the Lawrence School, Lovedale, in Nilgiris, Tamil Nadu, and sure there she would have been doped with missionary ideology

i think we should leave the private lives of arundhati. her political postings are game, but it is hitting below the belt and not only unfair, but shows a lack of good arguements to counter arundhati's stands.

personally i do not go for arundhati, but i would not dream of being clubbed with folks whose weapon of attack is to malign their private lives. i think you folks might want to dig deeper to strengthen your case.

thank you.
 

RVR

0
Kunjuppu ji,

We are not at all interested in the private life of Arundathi Roy or any body else for that matter.

If she is really interested in exposing human rights violations, she should have just thought about the plight of Kashmiri Pandits. Kashmir issue is highly complicated and any solution to the issue should be acceptable to the Pandits also.

Geelani is instigating violence in the volley and Arundhathi Roy is supporting him.

Now even Government of India is not going to arrest her and nobody can talk about curtailing freedom of speech in her case.

Now every body is curious to know more about Arundathi Roy as her actions creates lot of suspicions.

Just like she got fame for her novel and she should also be exposed for her wrong deeds.

I wish freedom of expression is not curtailed here also.

All the best
 
OP
OP
S

ShivKC

0
Chidambaram should break the financial spine of the Maoists.All the money to the Maoists flows from the Catholic organisations,just like it happened in Nepal.The moment the Hindu monarchy was removed ,there has been frentic church building activities there.All the Hindu faces of the Maoists are puppets or converts of the Christian missionaries.Not for nothing a fanatical Christian by birth,Arundhati Roy supports the Maoists openly.
 
From whatever I read about AR's interview/speech, she did not stop with her view that Kashmir was never an integral part of India; she exhorted the Kashmiri people to opt for Pakistan instead of for the "bhookhe, nange hindustani" (hungry, naked hindustanis). If this is not seditious what else is it?

Or, is my reading wrong?
 

RVR

0
Chidambaram should break the financial spine of the Maoists.All the money to the Maoists flows from the Catholic organisations,just like it happened in Nepal.The moment the Hindu monarchy was removed ,there has been frentic church building activities there.All the Hindu faces of the Maoists are puppets or converts of the Christian missionaries.Not for nothing a fanatical Christian by birth,Arundhati Roy supports the Maoists openly.

Sri ShivKC,

You may be correct. Catholics in general don't involve themselves in conversion directly nowadays but put all the other sects like Protestents, Penta-coastal, Seventh day Adventists etc in the front and are funding them to do conversion. Once they reach a considerable size, they open a Catholic Church and convert them to Catholic sect within Christianity. Since Catholics control most of the educational institutions and hospitals, the already converted Christians turn to Catholic faith.

Maoists may be yet another front line before moving to the Christianity as the targeted Scheduled Castes and Tribes don't believe any religion but may be attracted to Maoism.

In Orissa, a Hindu monk along with his four associates were killed in 2008 and Christians were behind the murder either directly or through hired Maoists.

Maoists disown any role in Swami lakshmananda Saraswati’s murder « Arise Bharat’s Weblog

Missionaries create problems at every possible way and try to project themselves as social workers.

All the best
 
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My Reply to Smt HHji,

Greetings HHji... Well... when there is a contradiction between the Vedas and Smritis... then the Vedas must be taken into account... Vedas recognize the worth of labour. But... one question remains... we allowed the Charvakas, Miamsas and Lokahitas to live... did any society allowed them to live, eg.. take the instance of witch hunt and Inquisition...? Ok as for answering your questions..
Dear Srikrish,

Again, the negatives of other religions like witch-hunting may appear to one as 'negatives" but negative things within hinduism perhaps do not ring a bell...And this what every beleiver of every religion seems to do. Please do look up the historical 'struggles' between hindus and jains.

Any religion does not happen to exist without antagonizing other religion. Because religions are shaped and controlled by people.

And as regards the works you mention...ages ago, the priests persecuted charvakas and burnt and wiped out the lokayata works. The book "Vyasa's Mahabharatam" describes how charvaka was burned because he criticized Yudhistara. The lokayatas were a threat to the priests bcoz the lokayata philosophy was "rational". You can read ""Indian Philosophy in Modern Times" available on google books for more info.

It also happens to be a lokayata view that the brahmana (sacrifical) texts were added to the vedas later. Till date the uttaramimansa followers do not agree with the purvamimansa views. Methinks, the uttaramimansa monks survived, but not without their position / knowledge 'being taken over' by the purvamimansa priests.

What the vedas originally were is difficult to define. Some say it was only samhitas at first. Some say it was samhitas and upanishads, while others say upanishads were composed at a later date and added to the vedas. Whatever may be the facts, it remains true that the vedas were composed over a long period of time.

Btw, it is a uttaramimansa view that when there is a conflict between vedas and smrithis then vedas must be followed. To the purvamimansa followers, the smrithi is equal to the vedas. The purvamimansa followers claim that the smrithis are based on the vedas, but there is no evidence for it.

Your statement "vedas recognise the worth of labour" seems vague. Am not clear what you mean by it. Do you mean to say there are labour division laws in vedas?

And I do not follow Manu Smrithi... so I do not care about it...
:) not only Manu, other smrithis also more or less say the same things.

Do you know that the Majority of the Sikhs are Jats. Sikh politics itself is influenced by caste... The Khatri and Arouras are the high caste Sikhs to which the Gurus themselves belonged.
Perhaps you may wish to read this: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/4823-punjabi-tamil-marriages.html#post54523

The Khatris consider themselves high caste. Perhaps in the past they were not even hindus (to have a "caste").

The Gurus themselves positioned their own caste persons as the next Gurus...
Well, the Sikhs claim that the gurus positioned the most capable man as the next guru. It was not based on caste.

And then comes the Jat Sikhs (they are not low castes...)
Jats consider themselves high. So does everyone else (including the ones we think are "low"). Well, what is high to one is low to another, so these "high" and "low" terms are relative really....

Finally we have the Dalits... ie the Mazabhi siksh i.e. Sikhs by religion alone... (Khansi Ram Singh is a Mazhabi). And I also say... Sikhism is a pure Hindu sect... plain and simple... I can take reference from Dasam Granth about the caste based discriminations...

बरन बरन अपुनी क्रित लाए ॥ चार चार ही बरन चलाए ॥ छत्री करैं बि्प्र की सेवा ॥ बैस लखै छ्त्री कह देवा ॥८३८॥
He caused every caste to do its duties and set in motion Varnashram Dharma; Kshatriyas began to serve the Brahmin and the Vaishyas considered the Kshatriyas as gods.838.

If you want more proof... I'll calarify you.

The Khalistani movement is failure because of the Sikh's inherent Hinduness.

For reference please read 8. Are Sikhs Hindus? by Koenraad Elst.
Well, well, this is interesting. You are right that sikhism cud not escape birth-based caste divisions. Bcoz it branched off from hinduism. Unless hinduism (the root) eradicates birth-based caste, the caste system in any other religion cannot be erased.

Remember, when western education started to set in... India started to bleed... and her poverty rose tremendously. This was the time, when the missionaries started to proselytize. Many poor among the people (even Brahmans too) were converted... Do you know that the Bhil rebellion (1822-1857) was due to missionary activities in the Tribal belt of Orissa?

Even under the muslim rule... people got their full share of food...
I request you to go thru the thread "The Brits are to Blame". It is an oft repeated baseless claim that western / secular education caused problems. If anything, the brahmins benefitted immensely from secular education.

The islamic onslaught.

THe Chamar rebellion...
The Satnami revolt occurred in the reign of the Moghul Emperor Aurungzeb. Many Hindus resented Aurungzeb's strict Islamic policies-which included reviving the hated Islamic Jiziya tax (poll tax on non-Muslim subjects), banning music and art, and destroying Hindu temples. The revolt began in 1672 when a Moghul soldier killed a Satnami. Other Satnamis took revenge on the Moghul soldier, and in turn the Moghul soldiers went about repressing the Satnamis. The result was that about 5,000 Satnamis were up in arms. They routed the Moghul troops situated in the town, drove away the Moghul administrators and set up their own administration in its place. The uprising gained the enthusiasm of Hindus in Agra and Ajmer also. Though totally lacking in weaponry and money, the Satnamis inflicted several defeats on the Moghul forces. The contemporary Moghul chronicler, Saqi Mustaid Khan, expressed amazement as to what came over this "destitute gang of goldsmiths, carpenters, sweepers and tanners and other… artisan castes that their conceited brains became so overclouded? Rebellious pride having found a place in their brains, their heads became too heavy for their shoulders." The resentment of the Satnami's against the Moghul persecution meant that they even enacted revenge by destroying mosques in the area. It was only with great difficulty that any Muslim soldiers could be brought to face the Satnamis, such was the wrath of the Satnamis at the time.
Sorry, Srikrish, i did not understand. Are you are saying that since sikhs retained the caste system that is why "hinduism weathered a storm by ‘retreating into its caste structure" ? So in effect caste system helped to save us from the mughals ?

I always give precedence to Ved as suggested by Bheeshma. Vedas had high respect for labor. If you want then I'll quote. I'll do a research and will come with proofs.
Again, i do not understand on what basis you say "vedas had high respect for labor". Please can you explain.

Finally... Thanks for spending time and replying to my post.
My pleasure srikrish. And thanks to you for this conversation also.

But Varna is not bad. Yes... birth based caste system has superseded the merit based Varna order.
:) :)

Regards.
 
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ShivKC

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Missionaries create problems at every possible way and try to project themselves as social workers.

All the best

Missionaries are the one who blew the propaganda to all the innocent peacefully living Indians, that casteism is wrong and fuelled the caste divide,reservations etc etc. Had missionaries not landed in our soil,all Indians would have been living peacefully and all castes be coexisting together. Thirumavalavans forefathers never revolted against Brahmins and they neither complained of oppression nor asked for reservation. Its the missionaries who triggered him and made him the hero of dalits. Anyways, I personally dont support caste system
 
Probably Missionaries could not digest the calm atmosphere in which Ayodhya verdict was received by Hindus and Muslims. Hindu-Muslim unity could not be tolerated by the missionaries.

Missionaries always create trouble from the behind the scenes and probably Arundhathi Roy is their tool now.

Let us understand the true colour of the missionaries.

The Invading religions (Islam and Christianity) always looked at (and still look at) India as 'People to be run Over' or a 'Trophy to be won'.

Its very sad 'some in our society' support this aggression without understanding the evil designs of these forces.

thanks,
 
Dear Srikrish,

Again, the negatives of other religions like witch-hunting may appear to one as 'negatives" but negative things within hinduism perhaps do not ring a bell...And this what every beleiver of every religion seems to do. Please do look up the historical 'struggles' between hindus and jains.

Smt. HH,
Kindly permit my comments and doubts.

Did not Pushyamitra Sunga, the samavedi brahmin king, try his best to destroy Buddhism also?

Any religion does not happen to exist without antagonizing other religion. Because religions are shaped and controlled by people.
Even sects within one and the same religion are antagonistic.

And as regards the works you mention...ages ago, the priests persecuted charvakas and burnt and wiped out the lokayata works. The book "Vyasa's Mahabharatam" describes how charvaka was burned because he criticized Yudhistara. The lokayatas were a threat to the priests bcoz the lokayata philosophy was "rational". You can read ""Indian Philosophy in Modern Times" available on google books for more info.
Are you referring to Mahabharata itself or some recent book? If it is the original M.Bh., will you kindly give the parva-ch reference.

It also happens to be a lokayata view that the brahmana (sacrifical) texts were added to the vedas later. Till date the uttaramimansa followers do not agree with the purvamimansa views. Methinks, the uttaramimansa monks survived, but not without their position / knowledge 'being taken over' by the purvamimansa priests.
This is new information for me. Any references?

What the vedas originally were is difficult to define. Some say it was only samhitas at first. Some say it was samhitas and upanishads, while others say upanishads were composed at a later date and added to the vedas. Whatever may be the facts, it remains true that the vedas were composed over a long period of time.
One view is that the Upanishads were the outcome of those who had reservations about the Vedas and the early Brahmana texts which generally supported the sruti. While the Lokayatas were outright rebels, the Upanishadic sages were reformers from within. And they expressed not one uniform view point but differing opinions. It was Sankara who wrote his bhashyas on the major Upanishads and gave rise to the impression that all the Upanishads expressed one view.

Btw, it is a uttaramimansa view that when there is a conflict between vedas and smrithis then vedas must be followed. To the purvamimansa followers, the smrithi is equal to the vedas. The purvamimansa followers claim that the smrithis are based on the vedas, but there is no evidence for it.
Smritis lay down social laws and their basic premise is the cAturvarnya, which has the purusha sUkta of the rigveda as its source. It is thus that the various smritis claim sruti status, I think.
 
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