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A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

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Unlike two generations ago, the number of children born and raised as TB in today's world may average 1 or 0.5
A culture survives if the average number of children born and raised in that culture is at a minimum of 2.3. In other words for every parent (2 people) there has to be 2.3 children on average for that culture to survive over time (with 0.3 more per couple to account for loss due to many circumstances).


Therefore it is a mathematical certainty that TB culture as understood today will be extinct in about 50 + years unless something changes. Nature is stubborn and its selection process is also stubborn.

Having said this, my personal opinion is that there is nothing to lament about this. I don't expect people to agree but I am not convinced that the most TB people living today regardless of the continent they live in represent anything special and sacrosanct except to themselves.

In any case from Varna point of view all of are born Sudras. The Varna description of Brahmana as in B.Gita is a rarely found characteristic in most TB people. What we have today is Kula (or Jati or caste) Brahmanas representing primarily cultural aspects.

By and large all cultures including the Brahmana Kula people are all 'body identified' people only, which by law of nature will evolve endlessly.

In terms of Varna Brahmanas, they continue to exist all the world over. Varna Brahmanas will never become extinct.

Having said all these, I still think it is desirable to marry within one's culture and kula when the character of the person being married to is acceptable. It is here that one can create systems to enable marriage within Brahmana Kula.

Unless Brahmana Kula people look towards having more than two children, the extinction of TB culture is a matter of time.

hi sir ,

i dont think so.....may some varies in TB culture.....here im giving 2 examples......which are mostly western culture influenced

TB /NB couples.....so just matter of convenience....nobody wants completely extinction.....our kids are more flexibles/adoptives..

i know one couple in USA....the TB gal and white boy.....both are doctors....they got one gal recently...they follow brahmin

rituals......like namakaranam/ next ayushya homam etc....like wise the TB boy married a white gal.....he follows TB rituals

properly.....even i attended all functions...even the white gal proper MADISAAR and he was in PANCCHAKACCHAM.....
 
hi sir ,

i dont think so.....may some varies in TB culture.....here im giving 2 examples......which are mostly western culture influenced

TB /NB couples.....so just matter of convenience....nobody wants completely extinction.....our kids are more flexibles/adoptives..

i know one couple in USA....the TB gal and white boy.....both are doctors....they got one gal recently...they follow brahmin

rituals......like namakaranam/ next ayushya homam etc....like wise the TB boy married a white gal.....he follows TB rituals

properly.....even i attended all functions...even the white gal proper MADISAAR and he was in PANCCHAKACCHAM.....

Is that all to Brahmin culture?
How is it different from what TKSji wrote?
 
I find the comments and crticisms one sided! My own daughter, very bright academically; very soft spoken; respect to elders very pretty. Only she is a little fat! (But physically very active) She has done her Master's. Many TB rejected her after meeting her and (some even before meeting). She is now nearing 45.She is happy and well employed. Obedient to her parents and well spoken and helpful to her office colleagues. (One's look alone is the criteria for making one's life partner.....)
What to do, if that is God's will.
 
Without beating about the bush, .............let us consider what is Brahmin culture / ethics that could be adhered to the core minimum by all brahmins with reference to the present day context so as to preserve Brahminism without much compromise.

This could be done as it would remain as a minimum guidelines to the younger generation.

This is to be done without lamenting / cursing that Brahminism will extinct in a couple of decades; but with a constructive approach, consciousness of the environment and also with a critical spirit of our community at large.
 
2 more data points received taking count to 8

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR
1
mem1
27
14
10
3
13
2
mem2
11
9
1
1
2
3
mem3
11
10
1
0
1
4
mem4
14
7
3
4
7
5
mem5
12
12
0
0
0
6
mem6
8
7
0
1
1
7
mem7
30
26
3
1
4
8
mem8
12
8
2
2
4
15
mem9
8
4
2 ended in divorce
4
4

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

I added my count
 
.............. In terms of Varna Brahmanas, they continue to exist all the world over. Varna Brahmanas will never become extinct.

Having said all these, I still think it is desirable to marry within one's culture and kula when the character of the person being married to is acceptable. It is here that one can create systems to enable marriage within Brahmana Kula.

Unless Brahmana Kula people look towards having more than two children, the extinction of TB culture is a matter of time.
Dear TKS Sir,

A well written post but I beg to differ the highlighted line! :)

Having more number of children will not solve the problem of continuation of 'brahmana kulam'.

For example, one B B couple in my extended family has two sons and one daughter and all of them chose their own I R partners.

Of course, they live in the U S of A! IC and IR marriages will happen but still brahmana kulam can continue to exist!

Some time back, I posted one of my weird ideas in this forum that those who wish to live like brahmins from other castes or

religion, should be able to convert and accepted as brahmins! Is it possible? Probably, Vaagmi Sir can throw some light on this. :)
 
High education is the basic need of brahmins to survive but education has become very expensive. :popcorn:

This is one of the reasons why brahmins choose to have one of two kids ONLY!! ;)
 
Have added additional responses!

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR
1
mem1
27
14
10
3
13
2
mem2
11
9
1
1
2
3
mem3
11
10
1
0
1
4
mem4
14
7
3
4
7
5
mem5
12
12
0
0
0
6
mem6
8
7
0
1
1
7
mem7
30
26
3
1
4
8
mem8
12
8
2
2
4
9
mem9
2
1
0
1
1
10
mem10
24
19
3
2
5
11
mem11
8
6
2
0
2
12
mem12
14
12
1
1
2
13
mem13
12
11
1
0
1
14
mem14
21
16
5
0
5
15
mem15
8
4
0
4
8
Total (Nos)
214
162
32
20
52
In Percent
75.7%
15.0%
9.3%
24.3%


B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin
 
High education is the basic need of brahmins to survive but education has become very expensive. :popcorn:

This is one of the reasons why brahmins choose to have one of two kids ONLY!! ;)

That's good right? Why cause unnecessary population explosion? Plus extra attention can be given to the few kids.
 
That's good right? Why cause unnecessary population explosion? Plus extra attention can be given to the few kids.

Another option is adoption....The rich can have more than 2 kids & give it for adoption to those with one or no kid...Thathu ceremony! When did I last attend! That was in early 70's when I was a kid! There are plenty of couples with no issues amongst Brahmins..Both sides should be happy!!
 
Dear TKS Sir,

A well written post but I beg to differ the highlighted line! :)

Having more number of children will not solve the problem of continuation of 'brahmana kulam'.

For example, one B B couple in my extended family has two sons and one daughter and all of them chose their own I R partners.

Of course, they live in the U S of A! IC and IR marriages will happen but still brahmana kulam can continue to exist!

Some time back, I posted one of my weird ideas in this forum that those who wish to live like brahmins from other castes or

religion, should be able to convert and accepted as brahmins! Is it possible? Probably, Vaagmi Sir can throw some light on this. :)

Smt Raji,

Actually even if one were to accept IC/IR marriages as Brahmin marriage it is a mathematical certainty of extinction in 50 years if a couple do not end up having more than two children on an average.

France is projected to become Islamic in about 25 years because Muslims are told to have many children by their prophet and they comply (about 4 to 5 on an average) while local French couples averages less than 2.

In any case, transmitting culture naturally is a hard thing. For example if we did not send our children to Southern India every summer during their childhood years, taught them to read and write Tamil and many more things they could not be talking in Tamil easily or appreciate small cultural aspects like enjoying filtered coffee, eating properly in a banana leaf, think how important curd rice is or learn to do Talam etc to Carnatic music etc..I know culture is far more than this but these are starters :)

In IC/IR marriages it will be unfair if a child is not exposed to both *cultures* even if they practice Hinduism.

In my small sample of visits, I find most youngsters of upper middle class families (TB ) in India mostly aping the west, clicking on iphone or ipad, talking in some psedo-assumed-English, clueless about many of the customs . They are least likely to propagate TB culture in a generation or two.

I know there are many families that are preserving the TB cultural aspects even in IC/IR marriages. But unfortunately it is a simple question of mathematics.

On both my father and mother side the number of siblings were 8 or more. After two generations, minimal children in each of the cases, my son now is the only one in the lineage of our family. This issue has nothing to do with IC or IR marriage or even going to USA or anything. It is simply a matter of just numbers. Most had no children or one child (daughter) .

That is the point I was trying to stress.
 
Smt Raji,

Actually even if one were to accept IC/IR marriages as Brahmin marriage it is a mathematical certainty of extinction in 50 years if a couple do not end up having more than two children on an average.

France is projected to become Islamic in about 25 years because Muslims are told to have many children by their prophet and they comply (about 4 to 5 on an average) while local French couples averages less than 2.

In any case, transmitting culture naturally is a hard thing. For example if we did not send our children to Southern India every summer during their childhood years, taught them to read and write Tamil and many more things they could not be talking in Tamil easily or appreciate small cultural aspects like enjoying filtered coffee, eating properly in a banana leaf, think how important curd rice is or learn to do Talam etc to Carnatic music etc..I know culture is far more than this but these are starters :)

In IC/IR marriages it will be unfair if a child is not exposed to both *cultures* even if they practice Hinduism.

In my small sample of visits, I find most youngsters of upper middle class families (TB ) in India mostly aping the west, clicking on iphone or ipad, talking in some psedo-assumed-English, clueless about many of the customs . They are least likely to propagate TB culture in a generation or two.

I know there are many families that are preserving the TB cultural aspects even in IC/IR marriages. But unfortunately it is a simple question of mathematics.

On both my father and mother side the number of siblings were 8 or more. After two generations, minimal children in each of the cases, my son now is the only one in the lineage of our family. This issue has nothing to do with IC or IR marriage or even going to USA or anything. It is simply a matter of just numbers. Most had no children or one child (daughter) .

That is the point I was trying to stress.


Well said!
 
Smt Raji,

Actually even if one were to accept IC/IR marriages as Brahmin marriage it is a mathematical certainty of extinction in 50 years if a couple do not end up having more than two children on an average.

France is projected to become Islamic in about 25 years because Muslims are told to have many children by their prophet and they comply (about 4 to 5 on an average) while local French couples averages less than 2.

In any case, transmitting culture naturally is a hard thing. For example if we did not send our children to Southern India every summer during their childhood years, taught them to read and write Tamil and many more things they could not be talking in Tamil easily or appreciate small cultural aspects like enjoying filtered coffee, eating properly in a banana leaf, think how important curd rice is or learn to do Talam etc to Carnatic music etc..I know culture is far more than this but these are starters :)

In IC/IR marriages it will be unfair if a child is not exposed to both *cultures* even if they practice Hinduism.

In my small sample of visits, I find most youngsters of upper middle class families (TB ) in India mostly aping the west, clicking on iphone or ipad, talking in some psedo-assumed-English, clueless about many of the customs . They are least likely to propagate TB culture in a generation or two.

I know there are many families that are preserving the TB cultural aspects even in IC/IR marriages. But unfortunately it is a simple question of mathematics.

On both my father and mother side the number of siblings were 8 or more. After two generations, minimal children in each of the cases, my son now is the only one in the lineage of our family. This issue has nothing to do with IC or IR marriage or even going to USA or anything. It is simply a matter of just numbers. Most had no children or one child (daughter) .

That is the point I was trying to stress.
hi

many brahmin familes had 13 or 14 children some decades ago...it was hard life....many families suffered dur to lot of children....

in a village agraharam.....olden days NO TV/INTERNET....so ONLY this was the entertainment....with a big joint family many

kids lived together.....even without much privacy in villages/agraharam...many had more than 10 children...BUT NOW...

IN AN APARTMENT ...LOT OF PRIVACY...STILL ONE OR TWO KIDS....
 
!. vgane sir is collecting some random data on IR/IC marriages.
It is varying from 10-30 % in brahmin families.In addition For vaishnavites who are small in number most are inter mixing with saivite and telugu brahmins in larger numbers.

Most families accept saying atleast a brahmin pitying the person who has accepted such alliances. Where is vaishnavite purity?. I do not think the trend is essentially
bad per se for vaishnavite,

Not only vaishnavites, each and every caste has its own customs, conventions, purity etc., thinking high of the caste. Vaishnavism is one of the so many 'Isms' prevailing in Hinduism.

Since ours is paternal society, generally the boy's caste and his customs and conventions are being followed.

I have come across few instances of Iyer girls marrying Iyengar boys. In all such cases, the boys families did not like the proposal. After marriage, the girl totally embraced the Iyengar tradition. What happened to the Smartha purity? It is vanished in thin air.

Of late, there is a tendency among certain section of Smarthas, especially Bhagavathas, their Chamchas and PROs, to make Hindu means vaishnavite. A famous Carnatic vocalist in a speech said that all become vaishnavite at the time of death. If that is so, what is the meaning of Kailash and Shivalokaprabthi?

All Smarthas cannot become vaishnavite Bs and all vaishnavite Bs and Madhwa Bs cannot become Smarthas.

Unless a common code is developed and agreed to by all B sects, we may expect more IC/IR marriages.
 
hi

many brahmin familes had 13 or 14 children some decades ago...it was hard life....many families suffered dur to lot of children....

in a village agraharam.....olden days NO TV/INTERNET....so ONLY this was the entertainment....with a big joint family many

kids lived together.....even without much privacy in villages/agraharam...many had more than 10 children...BUT NOW...

IN AN APARTMENT ...LOT OF PRIVACY...STILL ONE OR TWO KIDS....

Donot loose heart and Agraharam culture! Kerala is showing the way!

Centuries-old agraharams in Kerala to get a facelift

The traditional settlements have been declared heritage sites

https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&r...THqEFBgPdBYO_h8oA&sig2=BUFxocclWZ8wtqRAgOR4OA
 
Not only vaishnavites, each and every caste has its own customs, conventions, purity etc., thinking high of the caste. Vaishnavism is one of the so many 'Isms' prevailing in Hinduism.

Since ours is paternal society, generally the boy's caste and his customs and conventions are being followed.

I have come across few instances of Iyer girls marrying Iyengar boys. In all such cases, the boys families did not like the proposal. After marriage, the girl totally embraced the Iyengar tradition. What happened to the Smartha purity? It is vanished in thin air.

Of late, there is a tendency among certain section of Smarthas, especially Bhagavathas, their Chamchas and PROs, to make Hindu means vaishnavite. A famous Carnatic vocalist in a speech said that all become vaishnavite at the time of death. If that is so, what is the meaning of Kailash and Shivalokaprabthi?

All Smarthas cannot become vaishnavite Bs and all vaishnavite Bs and Madhwa Bs cannot become Smarthas.

Unless a common code is developed and agreed to by all B sects, we may expect more IC/IR marriages.
Yes.
Ours is a paternal society to some extend.

But now people follow which ever is advantageous.

In my street one vaishnavite girl working in software, has married a SC boy working in the same company; They have two kids (both boys)

Elder boy has been admitted in school; caste declaration given there is SC; of course it would be advantageous for her son, in future.
 
Chandruji

Do you know there are on an average 6 iyer girls to every 1 iyengar girl -similarly educated and employed?

The population of eligible girls multiplies six times if one extends it to include iyer families for a prospective bride.

Most of these girls can be persuaded to opt for iyengar boys. They might adopt iyengar customs , language, cuisine and dress [madisar for occassions].

The language is a little difficult sometimes for them to readily get used to.

One can have vaikunta prapthi instead of kailasa or sivaloka prapthi. Only a minor change in obituary notices.

So if you are an iyengar boy, opt for iyer girls if iyengar girls play hard to get. Who knows they might accept you .

Girls parents may also accept as other communities could be worse.

Most have nightmares about smarter NB boys in their neighbourhood in south like we have about punjabi mundas in delhi chasing tamil brahmin girls in delhi
 
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Chandruji

Do you know there are on an average 6 iyer girls to every 1 iyengar girl -similarly educated and employed?

The population of eligible girls multiplies six times if one extends it to include iyer families for a prospective bride.

Most of these girls can be persuaded to opt for iyengar boys. They might adopt iyengar customs , language, cuisine and dress [madisar for occassions].

The language is a little difficult sometimes for them to readily get used to.

One can have vaikunta prapthi instead of kailasa or sivaloka prapthi. Only a minor change in obituary notices.

So if you are an iyengar boy, opt for iyer girls if iyengar girls play hard to get. Who knows they might accept you .

Girls parents may also accept as other communities could be worse.

Most have nightmares about smarter NB boys in their neighbourhood in south like we have about punjabi mundas in delhi chasing tamil brahmin girls in delhi

This is the latest story about my Iyengar friend about whom I have written earlier - His D in L is an iyer She and her Husband are in US Computer Engineers studied in the same college My friend insisted that the Grand Son should be named only Prahalad imagining that the boy will be saying Narayana 24 X 7 - staunch vaishnava! & away from Smartha influenze! He was named so though the parents were uncomfortable with an asurans name! The parents were keen on naming the child as Sankara Naryanan But my frient would not compramise!

Recently they were in Bangalore on 3 weeks holiday and this man wanted them to undergo Samasrayanam and they were branded with hot Sangu and Chakram on their shoulders! After that ritual she devleoped a huge ugly Keloidal scar! It is Highly itchy and Painful also! Poor Girl She is back in US and is undergoing treatment!
 
Another option is adoption....The rich can have more than 2 kids & give it for adoption to those with one or no kid...Thathu ceremony! When did I last attend! That was in early 70's when I was a kid! There are plenty of couples with no issues amongst Brahmins..Both sides should be happy!!
Money is NOT the only thing needed to bear a child, Ganesh! Who will undergo the labour pain? :ballchain:

I would suggest another method. Poor brahmins can get some financial aid from the rich, who don't have but want to have a kid.
icon3.png


BTW, I already wrote in our forum about a rich brahmin I T couple who wanted to abort a child and their family doctor suggested

to have the child and give it once it is born. She had earmarked a childless brahmin couple, who will raise the kid with love.

This is NOT the end of the story! A puny child was born because the mother did not care to nourish herself during pregnancy. :sad:
 
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JJ ji

By telling such horror stories you are trying to frighten smarthas.

Iyengar boys are mostly hen pecked husbands.

They will sport vibhuthi if their wives/GFs insist on it .

In fact the modern types are without poonool or caste marks.

Do not frighten iyer girls unnecessarily.

These iyengar boys are findind it tough as it is to get any girl leave alone iyer or brahmin.
 
hi

many brahmin familes had 13 or 14 children some decades ago...it was hard life....many families suffered dur to lot of children....

in a village agraharam.....olden days NO TV/INTERNET....so ONLY this was the entertainment....with a big joint family many

kids lived together.....even without much privacy in villages/agraharam...many had more than 10 children...BUT NOW...

IN AN APARTMENT ...LOT OF PRIVACY...STILL ONE OR TWO KIDS....


When there is more privacy couples understand life and its trials and tribulations hence less kids...so the relationship is more at an intellectual level and there is no one to disturb their nights of intellectual Sangamam...so it is Hum Do Hamara Ek Ya Hum Do Hamare Do!

But when there was no privacy in the past.. ..living in joint families ..couples did not have time to know each other and were fearful in case some child or anyone else would disturb them at nite hence it was more of a Wham Bam Vanakam Maam scenario and everyone kept getting pregnant again and again...Punarapi Jananam becos of Punarapi Shayanam!LOL
 
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Dear TKS Sir,

I could get your point correct. But, now that educating a child is so expensive, even the upper middle class worry to have

more than one. In the earlier generations, some moms used to bear a child when her first daughter is on the family way!


Wonder how they managed??
wink-new.png
 
In those days, when large family existed, usually a grand mother, widowed aunt will be there to take the overall control of the administration (which nobody questioned) and any crisis in the family will be ably managed. The household works will go on with every member chipping in to attend some work, even though there existed no work allocation. The girl children, even in the young age, took lessons from the grandmother/aunt and they were almost proxy mother to the younger siblings. Sense of sacrifice existed to the larger interests of the common family.

Nowadays, with one or two children, the sense of sacrifice no longer exists and the present young generation are not prepared for any compromise even in trivial matters - that triggers more and more of broken marriages in our society. Probably, two or three children in every family is the ideal situation with the siblings experience what is love, what is responsibility, what is sacrifice and better understanding of others in the society - above all, less number of broken marriages !
 
Money is NOT the only thing needed to bear a child, Ganesh! Who will undergo the labour pain? :ballchain:

I would suggest another method. Poor brahmins can get some financial aid from the rich, who don't have but want to have a kid.
icon3.png


BTW, I already wrote in our forum about a rich brahmin I T couple who wanted to abort a child and their family doctor suggested

to have the child and give it once it is born. She had earmarked a childless brahmin couple, who will raise the kid with love.

This is NOT the end of the story! A puny child was born because the mother did not care to nourish herself during pregnancy. :sad:

I absolutely agree with you..Having more children is possible only if the rich raise above the mundane and think about the community...Would be more suitable in case girl is a house wife or ready to compromise her official work for child bearing activities which disturbs her schedule by at least a year ( 3 months during pregnancy & 6 to 9 months for child rearing)

As far as opening the purse strings are concerned it is desirable but who is interested in helping a poor fellow Brahmin...We need to have a paradigm shift in philanthropy! It should start with us first!!
 
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