A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

krish44 · Feb 6, 2016

auh said:
You have made several sweeping generalizations in this thread based on your (and one) point of view. And you have the temerity to call my post as judgmental...what an empty-headed statement !

Despite your education and world experience, you seem to exhibit a lack of empathy. And with a swagger of tempestuous thoughts, you rush headlong into any discussion.

So be it.

There may not be sense in engaging with a person who is not in touch with ground realities.

so no wisdom in engaging with some.

vgane · Feb 6, 2016

The count is 4..

Members, Please PM the data to me as this is an opportunity to do a reality check

S.No	Member	No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015)	No of B-B marriages*	No of IC marriages	No of IR marriages	Total IC+IR
1	mem1	27	14	10	3	13
2	mem2	11	9	1	1	2
3	mem3	11	10	1	0	1
4	mem4	17	7	3	4	7

[FONT=&quot]-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin[/FONT]

Vaagmi · Feb 6, 2016

1. You have made several sweeping generalizations in this thread based on your (and one) point of view. And you have the temerity to call my post as judgmental...what an empty-headed statement !

Despite your education and world experience, you seem to exhibit a lack of empathy. And with a swagger of tempestuous thoughts, you rush headlong into any discussion. So be it.

2. There may not be sense in engaging with a person who is not in touch with ground realities. so no wisdom in engaging with some.

Either stupid parents or stupid children or both.

No use arguing with such stone walls.

bye.

krish44 · Feb 6, 2016

vaagmiji
pl return and engage.

we are learning a lot.

All will benefit by your engagement.

I appreciate your intellectual prowess .

I expect some good to come out of it

vgane · Feb 6, 2016

The count is 5...Wow no IC/IR in family!

S.No	Member	No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015)	No of B-B marriages*	No of IC marriages	No of IR marriages	Total IC+IR
1	mem1	27	14	10	3	13
2	mem2	11	9	1	1	2
3	mem3	11	10	1	0	1
4	mem4	17	7	3	4	7
5	mem5	12	12	0	0	0

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

krish44 · Feb 6, 2016

vgane said:
The count is 5...Wow no IC/IR in family!

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR

1

mem1

27

14

10

3

13

2

mem2

11

9

1

1

2

3

mem3

11

10

1

0

1

4
mem4
17

7

3

4

7

5
mem5
12

12

0

0

0

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

let us engage and investigate his recipe for ethnic purity

vgane · Feb 6, 2016

krish44 said:
let us engage and investigate his recipe for ethnic purity

Let us get all the data...Hope to cross 10...Then let us dissect this..This is my suggestion!

Vaagmi · Feb 6, 2016

krish44 said:
Vaagmiji

1. Brahmin genes are definitely headed for dilution with IC/IR marriages assuming your theory is valid. But there is nothing you can do about it.

2. It is economics and geography which decide the future of brahmins but not lamentations and rantings sitting in agraham like settings in deep south.

3. Indian constitution strives to give a level playing field to other communities . To enable catcjhing up, they have reservations in place. These will make a dent but may be slowly.

4. Slow inter mixing of brahmin castes with others is bound to happen when inter mediate castes become affluent and confront the brahmin caste with better marriage offers in their community offering a better life to our brahmin girls. Our girls in order to escape the conservative rigid patriarchal order would find it worthwhile to make an informed choice from another close caste in social scale. OK you may call it ill advised but you may not be able to do anything about.

5. Unless brahmins set their own house in order and liberalise giving up their rigid views on customs and beliefs , work for gender quality and justice, shift in preferance of girl to boys of other castes cannot be reduced.It is a doomsday scenario for brahmins.

1. That is your view and many here may not agree with that. I do n ot agree with that. I dont think the situation is so bad.

2. Money and economics are not everything. There are other important factors too in a marriage.

3. Let every one come up. We too keep moving up. We are not stagnating anywhere.

4. Again you are speaking about affluence. Brahmins do not attach such an all consuming value to riches. When I fixed up the marriage of my daughter, I engaged a detective agency to get me info only three aspects (i) whether the boy smokes (ii) whether he drinks (iii) whether he is in love with any other girl. That was done keeping in mind my daughter's preferences. Education and financial background are assessed much earlier in the process. The oppressive patriarchal order you speak about is a gorgotten thing of the last generation. Parents too have evolved just as children have. It is not as if they remain frozen fossils of an earlier era.

5. I do not agree with you on many things you have said in this point no.5. But to discuss it will be opening up the discussion once again from square one. So I give up. Thanks. Take care.

vgane · Feb 6, 2016

Count has increased to 6...Also corrected total in mem4

S.No	Member	No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015)	No of B-B marriages*	No of IC marriages	No of IR marriages	Total IC+IR
1	mem1	27	14	10	3	13
2	mem2	11	9	1	1	2
3	mem3	11	10	1	0	1
4	mem4	14	7	3	4	7
5	mem5	12	12	0	0	0
6	mem6	8	7	0	1	1

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

tks · Feb 7, 2016

If TB marries a woman from another religion but then she follows the lifestyle of TB , is that considered IR marriage?

I know a case where the American girl embraced TB lifestyle, learnt Tamil, made her husband start doing Sandhyavandanam etc, knew how to cook authentic TB food (Iyer type). She also ensured husband start doing Sandhyavandnam at least once most of the days.

She could chant Rudram/ Chamakam and many of the sukthams with precision. In marriage functions she could easily help others as to how to wear sari in Madisar style.

For all practical purposes she chose to become a TB woman! Is that considered IR marriage

vgane · Feb 7, 2016

tks said:
If TB marries a woman from another religion but then she follows the lifestyle of TB , is that considered IR marriage?

I know a case where the American girl embraced TB lifestyle, learnt Tamil, made her husband start doing Sandhyavandanam etc, knew how to cook authentic TB food (Iyer type). She also ensured husband start doing Sandhyavandnam at least once most of the days.

She could chant Rudram/ Chamakam and many of the sukthams with precision. In marriage functions she could easily help others as to how to wear sari in Madisar style.

For all practical purposes she chose to become a TB woman! Is that considered IR marriage

I am not an authority..But like the Parsis & Jews we have been exclusive...Both the cases mentioned by you would be considered as IR

vgane · Feb 7, 2016

2 more data points received taking count to 8

S.No	Member	No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015)	No of B-B marriages*	No of IC marriages	No of IR marriages	Total IC+IR
1	mem1	27	14	10	3	13
2	mem2	11	9	1	1	2
3	mem3	11	10	1	0	1
4	mem4	14	7	3	4	7
5	mem5	12	12	0	0	0
6	mem6	8	7	0	1	1
7	mem7	30	26	3	1	4
8	mem8	12	8	2	2	4

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

krish44 · Feb 7, 2016

Vaagmi said:
1. That is your view and many here may not agree with that. I do n ot agree with that. I dont think the situation is so bad.

2. Money and economics are not everything. There are other important factors too in a marriage.

3. Let every one come up. We too keep moving up. We are not stagnating anywhere.

4. Again you are speaking about affluence. Brahmins do not attach such an all consuming value to riches. When I fixed up the marriage of my daughter, I engaged a detective agency to get me info only three aspects (i) whether the boy smokes (ii) whether he drinks (iii) whether he is in love with any other girl. That was done keeping in mind my daughter's preferences. Education and financial background are assessed much earlier in the process. The oppressive patriarchal order you speak about is a gorgotten thing of the last generation. Parents too have evolved just as children have. It is not as if they remain frozen fossils of an earlier era.

5. I do not agree with you on many things you have said in this point no.5. But to discuss it will be opening up the discussion once again from square one. So I give up. Thanks. Take care.

!. vgane sir is collecting some random data on IR/IC marriages.
It is varying from 10-30 % in brahmin families.In addition For vaishnavites who are small in number most are inter mixing with saivite and telugu brahmins in larger numbers.

Most families accept saying atleast a brahmin pitying the person who has accepted such alliances. Where is vaishnavite purity?. I do not think the trend is essentially

bad per se for vaishnavite, The population for making a choice gets bigger with more suitable persons.

2 and3.Economics is very important. Would any working girl accept a boy earning as much or less than her if both are of almost the same age or minor difference.I know

girls who have backed out after engagement if they get a wage hike overtaking boys income.Also most girls would prefer boys from same economic status of parents

or better than theirs. Hardly any girl would accept a boy from economically poor family by choice.

When lower income BCs catch up with brahmin counterparts due to better education and job , they also aspire to marry brahmin girls whatever be the terms of the girl

and her parents. Girls are unable to put up with dictation of boys parents of their high caste besides accepting an inferior second class status in marriage with gender inequality and gender

injustice practised in families of high caste boys and opt for NBs who accept girls terms willingly

4. I beg to disagree that brahmin girls do not care about affluence.They would happily marry a NB with education and from affluent families in preferance to equally

educated from poor brahmin family.All girls [more than them ,her parents] talk formally about disliking smoking and drinking and all boys say equally that they are

teetotallers. Both think their duty is over with that and care the least if the declaration is untrue. It is stupid to think either boy or girl are virgin pure if they are past 28

plus. If they are , then need to investigate what is wrong.Most marry based on education,job,place of work ,perhaps language,age difference. Others are only

hawabaazi.

5. both can maintain a diplomatic hands off on item 5.

CHANDRU1849 · Feb 7, 2016

vgane said:
The count is 4..

Members, Please PM the data to me as this is an opportunity to do a reality check

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR

1

mem1

27

14

10

3

13

2

mem2

11

9

1

1

2

3

mem3

11

10

1

0

1

4
mem4
17

7

3

4

7

-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

The figure of Mem 4 is not tallying.

Raji Ram · Feb 7, 2016

CHANDRU1849 said:
The figure of Mem 4 is not tallying.

It is corrected in the chart with 8 members. (post # 87)

Raji Ram · Feb 7, 2016

tks said:
...... For all practical purposes she chose to become a TB woman! Is that considered IR marriage

Dear TKS Sir,

I too used to get such doubts! When some brahmins hate the practices of an orthodox brahmin,

some foreigners love them and live like brahmins!

P.S: You may remember Boston Sankara of our forum.

vgane · Feb 7, 2016

CHANDRU1849 said:
The figure of Mem 4 is not tallying.

Chandru Sit,

You are right...This was rectified in subsequent posts

vgane · Feb 7, 2016

I could get 3 more responses..

First I would like to thank all the 10 participants excluding me profusely for agreeing to share the data...

On account of maintaining privacy and individual choice/need the identity of the remaining shall be kept confidential!

I may get some more responses which I shall update as soon as I get the data points!

I have summarized at the bottom...Is the total of 159 marriages represent a microcosm of the TB community..I guess so...We have been discussing IC & IR marriages in TB's without any data basis...This seems to be the first attempt at putting the numbers!

A fourth of the community boys & girls are marrying Inter caste or Inter religion...

This is an alarming number by any standards!

Here goes the data sheet with summary!

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR

1

mem1

27

14

10

3

13

2

mem2

11

9

1

1

2

3

mem3

11

10

1

0

1

4

mem4

14

7

3

4

7

5

mem5

12

12

0

0

0

6

mem6

8

7

0

1

1

7

mem7

30

26

3

1

4

8

mem8

12

8

2

2

4

9

mem9

2

1

0

1

1

10

mem10

24

19

3

2

5

11

mem11

8

6

2

0

2
Total (Nos)
159

119

25

15

40

In Percent

74.8%

15.7%

9.4%

25.1%

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

vgane · Feb 7, 2016

What used to be 1% 2% has now reached alarming positions! We are all part of the TB community & as leaders and responsible citizens let us suggest ways and means to stem the rot!

prasad1 · Feb 7, 2016

This thread has worked itself to a frenzy.
It has gone back to the usual caste questions.
Please explain what is "lost" when someone fails to observe the caste symbols, or what is gained by proclaiming your caste identification?
If society evolves, what is "rot"?
One's view a changing society as rot, others may view the same as progress.
Cigarette were glamorous at one time, it was smoked by rich and famous, but PUFF it is looked down now.
No one can stop a mighty river with few sticks. Then again why do you want to stop it.
We all lament the passing of time but who is going to stop it?

Then again how is holding your nose 3 times is any better than bowing down 5 times a day any different.

krish44 · Feb 7, 2016

I have believed in a simple recipe based on minimum requirement of education and job and boy and girl being put on he job of transacting with each other -first online ,

on mob, skype before meeting each other . if they feel comfortable with each other , they should marry.If both happen to be brahmins, it is excellent and made a pre

requisite.I normally take 6 to 8 weeks to firm up an alliance. I do not particularly care about jathakam , natchatram matching, .I believe in quick engagement and

marriage in 3 months or so. I do not talk money or social status. I care the least about the parents of either side and their likes or dislikes.-I wish parents keep away

from children when it comes to marriage.If the children are smart enough to get educated and find good jobs, they could decide on what type of mate they should have.

I have hardly failed to find a good match and I have no broken marriages. Choices made by children are far better than parents choices.Most children know what they

want . They are not young either as most of them are more than 25yrs.

Geography can be discussed by the boy and girl to decide where they will settle and how long they will have remote marriage.

Economics -girls should try for gender equality and justice instead of disparity in pay packets of both.

A relationship based on friendship and mutual respect last longer than similarity of caste or religion.However one can try for a caste near to ones own.

If one fails in finding a match inspite of everything, then perhaps love thy neighbour.

The last alternative never fails.

CHANDRU1849 · Feb 8, 2016

Do we have any statistics about women from other castes and religions marry TB boys in the last ten years? This will given an indication of the present status of society.

tks · Feb 8, 2016

vgane said:
I could get 3 more responses..

First I would like to thank all the 10 participants excluding me profusely for agreeing to share the data...

On account of maintaining privacy and individual choice/need the identity of the remaining shall be kept confidential!

I may get some more responses which I shall update as soon as I get the data points!

I have summarized at the bottom...Is the total of 159 marriages represent a microcosm of the TB community..I guess so...We have been discussing IC & IR marriages in TB's without any data basis...This seems to be the first attempt at putting the numbers!

A fourth of the community boys & girls are marrying Inter caste or Inter religion...

This is an alarming number by any standards!

Here goes the data sheet with summary!

S.No Member No of marriages (Jan 2006-Dec 2015) No of B-B marriages* No of IC marriages No of IR marriages Total IC+IR

1

mem1

27

14

10

3

13

2

mem2

11

9

1

1

2

3

mem3

11

10

1

0

1

4

mem4

14

7

3

4

7

5

mem5

12

12

0

0

0

6

mem6

8

7

0

1

1

7

mem7

30

26

3

1

4

8

mem8

12

8

2

2

4

9

mem9

2

1

0

1

1

10

mem10

24

19

3

2

5

11

mem11

8

6

2

0

2
Total (Nos)
159

119

25

15

40

In Percent

74.8%

15.7%

9.4%

25.1%

B-B*…Means Brahmin to Brahmin marriage. Inter sect (Iyer/Iyengar/Telugu Brahmin/Madhwa/Namboodiri) considered as Brahmin

Unlike two generations ago, the number of children born and raised as TB in today's world may average 1 or 0.5
A culture survives if the average number of children born and raised in that culture is at a minimum of 2.3. In other words for every parent (2 people) there has to be 2.3 children on average for that culture to survive over time (with 0.3 more per couple to account for loss due to many circumstances).

Therefore it is a mathematical certainty that TB culture as understood today will be extinct in about 50 + years unless something changes. Nature is stubborn and its selection process is also stubborn.

Having said this, my personal opinion is that there is nothing to lament about this. I don't expect people to agree but I am not convinced that the most TB people living today regardless of the continent they live in represent anything special and sacrosanct except to themselves.

In any case from Varna point of view all of are born Sudras. The Varna description of Brahmana as in B.Gita is a rarely found characteristic in most TB people. What we have today is Kula (or Jati or caste) Brahmanas representing primarily cultural aspects.

By and large all cultures including the Brahmana Kula people are all 'body identified' people only, which by law of nature will evolve endlessly.

In terms of Varna Brahmanas, they continue to exist all the world over. Varna Brahmanas will never become extinct.

Having said all these, I still think it is desirable to marry within one's culture and kula when the character of the person being married to is acceptable. It is here that one can create systems to enable marriage within Brahmana Kula.

Unless Brahmana Kula people look towards having more than two children, the extinction of TB culture is a matter of time.

tks · Feb 8, 2016

Raji Ram said:
Dear TKS Sir,

I too used to get such doubts! When some brahmins hate the practices of an orthodox brahmin,

some foreigners love them and live like brahmins!

P.S: You may remember Boston Sankara of our forum.

The lady I know who has adopted TB lifestyle has done so out of knowledge. She is one of the most Satvic person I know.
Though she is not looking to get accepted by anyone, she is well respected for her knowledge and nature by people around her.

Vaagmi · Feb 8, 2016

tks said:
Unlike two generations ago, the number of children born and raised as TB in today's world may average 1 or 0.5
A culture survives if the average number of children born and raised in that culture is at a minimum of 2.3. In other words for every parent (2 people) there has to be 2.3 children on average for that culture to survive over time (with 0.3 more per couple to account for loss due to many circumstances).

Therefore it is a mathematical certainty that TB culture as understood today will be extinct in about 50 + years unless something changes. Nature is stubborn and its selection process is also stubborn.

Having said this, my personal opinion is that there is nothing to lament about this. I don't expect people to agree but I am not convinced that the most TB people living today regardless of the continent they live in represent anything special and sacrosanct except to themselves.

In any case from Varna point of view all of are born Sudras. The Varna description of Brahmana as in B.Gita is a rarely found characteristic in most TB people. What we have today is Kula (or Jati or caste) Brahmanas representing primarily cultural aspects.

By and large all cultures including the Brahmana Kula people are all 'body identified' people only, which by law of nature will evolve endlessly.

In terms of Varna Brahmanas, they continue to exist all the world over. Varna Brahmanas will never become extinct.

Having said all these, I still think it is desirable to marry within one's culture and kula when the character of the person being married to is acceptable. It is here that one can create systems to enable marriage within Brahmana Kula.

Unless Brahmana Kula people look towards having more than two children, the extinction of TB culture is a matter of time.

Well said.

A Tamil Brahmin Dilemma

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