Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[happyhindu]

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To start with, lets analyse the situation of necessity of God..
PS: Lets not worry who joins in this thread, but I personally wish/request Seshadri to join here, cos his views made lot of sense here earlier

Yes Sapr, i welcome Sesh with open arms to join in here. Sesh, please let us move on - :welcome:

Sapr, you will find very interesting posters here, Nacchinarkniyan, KRS, Kunjuppu, Hariharan, Sridharvasudevan, Silverfox, TBS, Pannvalan, Brahmnayan (who unfortunately is not active currently)..all of whom have their unique perspectives to offer. Hope all will join in.

Necessity of God (from the very basic):
1) That we exist.
2) That all that is seen and unseen (brahman) exists.
3) That there are sentinent and non-sentinent beings.
4) That there is a design or method to the madness of universe (?)
5) That sentinent beings have consciousness or energy (?).
6) That consciousness is part of brahman (?)
7) That energy / consciousness / brahman is neither created nor destroyed, and (re)exists in (or after) a state of transference to result in the transformed (?).
8) That energy or consciousness is passed on in sentinent beings (?).
9) That consciousness / energy has a source (ex: like the sun on which the planets and all life depends) or it does not have a source, and instead has always existed (ex: like space that has always existed) or (a combination of) both. (?)
10) That 'God' is the creator of the consciousness or energy (OR) 'God' is the energy itself (OR) both (?).

Looking forward to your inputs on the above.

Thank you.

 

[sapr333]

Happy Hindu, before I present my view, I thank you for the wondeful response. And I perfectly agree fully the ten points.

Now, the problem we would face in future,in a forum is, when encountered, some one would take excuse, in the name of 'Different school of Thoughts'. You need to set some modus operandi on this, so that, our debate remains focussed..

Btw,apologize, I missed out to welcome Nacchinarkiniyan.. I enjoyed his totally opposite views, and lets all invite and welcome him.. Im still waiting for his article , "Abstract of Global meet about Karma' ..

Now that we reached 600 posts in a short span, for a while, will keep Kancha/related topics aside from our discussion. Lets stay focussed on the concept of God and explore it though various religious views..

 

[sapr333]

Happy Hindu, 2 simple points to ponder..

According to your idea of God,

1) Is God finite or infinite?


2) Universe is finite or infinite?

 

[sapr333]

ok you are trying to be oversmart.i suspect you to be part of the coterie.iddhu eppadi irukku-rajni ssstyle.

sb

Bala, Jokes apart, I welcome you here for an active discussion about God. Please throw some light here..(in line with the discussion). Thanks.

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala, Jokes apart, I welcome you here for an active discussion about God. Please throw some light here..(in line with the discussion). Thanks.

ok,before i do my reality check with you,there are some pre-conditions i want both of us to adhere to.Firstly with happy hindu behaving with me,mango,seshu with PM messages,i am unable to believe your sincereity.frankly if you are a jesuit priest then we must know if its true.i cannot go against my conscience to have any further conversation with you as becoz read this message

This is the username i was originally posting under. Its gonna take sometime to sort things out, but i have learnt my lesson and do not wish to read myself backwards just to make a few crazy men see how the other side can be, or feel the need to please anyone else. Therefore am gonna just be myself and will be posting under this userid from now on. Am sorry for all the inconvenice caused so far.

this is coming after the fact,in her own admittance to me and other forum members that she indeed is happy hindu and not someone new as palindrome.so far so good.after apologising to my mother's atma,she again is after me-plz note the dates and times after her apology as palindrome moniker and her subsequent utter nonsense posts elsewhere.maybe dealing with psychos as a living to counsel,has made herself a psycho with psychiatric,dependency.dunno that for sure.

under the circumstances,i am only amused at her apology,becoz its simply a lip service done out of sheer respect for the dead,not from the heart,to begin afresh genuinely with others.she may have her opinions,but we also have our opinions.untill she stops with her attacks on me,i will not spare pointing out her idiotic behaviour.not that others cannot understand themselves.

from the above,i think i know who you could be,but you will want happy hindu only ,definitely not me to participate,becoz this is quiet a tall order.knowing you as much as i do now,its better we clear the air.

as a matter fact,if you go back in to your threads older posts,you will notice,i joined the conversation only very late and that too for my friend.i am not lying here.you also welcomed me?????????????=read your post.

in your own posts,you have judged me by saying,about what i know about hinduism.what does any nacchi,krs,hh,kunju,sb,seshu,mango.....to name a few of our forum members know about hinduism?that you are going to learn from us about god?at least speaking for myself,if not for others,i am not a authority on hinduism nor did i ever claim to be!

hope i have written well to the satisfaction of erstwhile western educated northern hemisphere residents and following western etiquette,as i am a man from eastern etiquette?as,i sincerely believe,that there was never any sarcasm in my writings nor any hatred nor any such wild allegations,that seems to be flying.

as usual i am off topic and hijacking your thread,i guess.:frusty:

sb

 

[sapr333]

Bala, for the argument sake, you are free to call me as a Jesuit Priest.. I think that clears your illusions.

Lets not dig in to the past..Lets move on, as we have some important points to discuss.

Bala, can you throw some light on post # 627,629. Thanks.



PS: The way your nagging about 'mothers atma', it reminds me of one of my college days fav movie in which the insane Jankaraj keeps ranting 'Thankacchiya Nai Kadicchirichuppa!!".

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala, for the argument sake, you are free to call me as a Jesuit Priest.. I think that clears your illusions.

Lets not dig in to the past..Lets move on, as we have some important points to discuss.

Bala, can you throw some light on post # 627,629. Thanks.

no no hello hold on.you must tell me the truth,if you are a jesuit priest.no arguments here,at least from me.even if you are a dalit christians,you must tell me as i tell you proudly ,i am a indian,with tamizh as my mother/father tongue but today english is my mother/father tongue as i live in usa.

PS: The way your nagging about 'mothers atma', it reminds me of one of my college days fav movie in which the insane Jankaraj keeps ranting 'Thankacchiya Nai Kadicchirichuppa!!".

'nagging' huh????i suppose i should quote happy hindus post wherein she will say to you,'if your mother had breast-fed you,then you will have enuff brain cells' for you do not know the anguish it creates to people who love their mom and dad.

as for the picture of janakaraj,i am only reminded of him in the role of police officer wherein the famous line =tamizh line=saar,neenga engoyyo poiteenga saar..khe khe khe .

sb

 

[sapr333]

[/COLOR]

no no hello hold on.you must tell me the truth,if you are a jesuit priest.no arguments here,at least from me.even if you are a dalit christians,you must tell me as i tell you proudly ,i am a indian,with tamizh as my mother/father tongue but today english is my mother/father tongue as i live in usa.

Bala, for forum sake, you may persume that, I'm a Tamil Untouchable Indian Jesuit Priest..What else?

And I'm not sure how one's mother/father tongue would change, just because someone crossed Atlantic!! :frusty:

Now can you go back , and attempt to answer to two importants points (#627/629) shared by myself and Happy Hindu.


PS: Bala, any further un-related posts, may compel me to report to the moderator, which would be of bad taste to both of us.

 

[s007bala]

re

Bala, for forum sake, you may persume that, I'm a Tamil Untouchable Indian Jesuit Priest..What else?

And I'm not sure how one's mother/father tongue would change, just because someone crossed Atlantic!! :frusty:

Now can you go back , and attempt to answer to two importants points (#627/629) shared by myself and Happy Hindu.


PS: Bala, any further un-related posts, may compel me to report to the moderator, which would be of bad taste to both of us.

just like lallu would say 'na koiyi maikka lal paidash hua ki ,sb badlay'(innum porundhu varanum that i will yield to threats)

plz continue,as i see i am wasting my time with you.you are better off with happy hindu kinda people..sorry boss,not my cup of coffee.

sb

p.s.in tamizh nadu,i can proudly say,mgr,muka,jj have abolished un-touchability and i love them for it.ennudiya irrathathin ratthhamay.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

A few things to share:

1) Plz do not give out your personal details on an open forum even if there are silly guys that will nag you for it. Reason is coz such ppl like to bake in self-importance. And self-importance to them is not by improving themselves but by cutting down the other person as much as possible. Today they can ask you for your caste, tomorrow they can (ab)use it with seemingly crap stuff like having no 'base', just coz it pleases their self-importance.

2) A guy can claim he is a tambram and then say "we" say it like this in telugu. Cud come across as a incoherent and crazy, but the dangerous part is attempting to 'communalize' non-existent crap / issues. And esp, if a person does not want peaceful co-existence b/w ppl, it cud also mean he has something else on his mind. So, if anyone plays the divisive communal card, please always be wary of it.

And please note that all of this applies only to a certain very tiny minority, which obviously is easy to identify bcoz of their crackpot attitude, the kind that either posts junk or can encourage / laugh at junk jokes, please deal with them as individuals alone and not as someone belonging of any particular community.

And please let us continue with the discussions, instead of being sidetracked.

You will find many posters here, very informative and wonderful conversationalists, that truly are a pride to the tambram community. Hope you will reach out to them, for constructive communication b/w communities.

Let us also be thankful to the forum owner(s) / management, for allowing us the space here.

 

[sapr333]

HH, please go through some of the contradictory statements about infinite...Its indeed an interesting subject to explore.. May take long hours of googling to come to a conclusion...(These forums have become an addiction I guess.. Depriving sleep)

Islamic scholars say, "Just as the ocean cannot be contained in a tea cup, the infinite God cannot be contained in the finite body of Jesus."

And some one refuted this' If God is infinite, then we cannot reach to that infinite, cos its infinite.


The German mathematician Hilbert in his paradox Grand Hotel, refutes the existence of infinite, which is used by aetheists to prove against the non-existence of Christian God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

I am inspired to share a Hindu view of God as ‘One’ and ‘Many’.
Philosophy has the capacity to prove and disprove theories of all streams including science, mathematic, biology, geography, astronomy... But there is a bit of confusion in taking a particular stand with this, cos if an idea could be both rejected/accepted, will have a logical issue.

To counter thisAn Islamic scholar said' God can be infinite but not zero and rejects the dual nature...

Overall I think, all religions accept the infinite view..

 

[happyhindu]

clarifications in brown

after apologising to my mother's atma,she again is after me-plz note the dates and times after her apology as palindrome moniker and her subsequent utter nonsense posts elsewhere.maybe dealing with psychos as a living to counsel,has made herself a psycho with psychiatric,dependency.dunno that for sure.

i apologized to a man looking for his ego to be assuaged. i did not abuse anyone's mother in the first place, so there is no question of apologizing for it.

i do not deal with psychos as a living to counsel. i wud love to consider it in the future as a hobby / interest option.

under the circumstances,i am only amused at her apology,becoz its simply a lip service done out of sheer respect for the dead,not from the heart,to begin afresh genuinely with others.she may have her opinions,but we also have our opinions.untill she stops with her attacks on me,i will not spare pointing out her idiotic behaviour.not that others cannot understand themselves.

i did genuinely apologize to you, have never done anything for lip service so far. and i do sincerely hope for you to make peace with yourself.

from the above,i think i know who you could be,but you will want happy hindu only ,definitely not me to participate,becoz this is quiet a tall order.knowing you as much as i do now,its better we clear the air.

as a matter fact,if you go back in to your threads older posts,you will notice,i joined the conversation only very late and that too for my friend.i am not lying here.you also welcomed me?????????????=read your post.

you are very welcome. the only request is to not use dirty words like anus, call anyone names, or post non-relevant stuff.

in your own posts,you have judged me by saying,about what i know about hinduism.what does any nacchi,krs,hh,kunju,sb,seshu,mango.....to name a few of our forum members know about hinduism?that you are going to learn from us about god?at least speaking for myself,if not for others,i am not a authority on hinduism nor did i ever claim to be!

everyone is in the same boat, rowing the same oars. there is no need to self-depreciate oneself. its a learning and growing journey for everyone, where each one is honest with what h/she does not know or has learnt and where each one shares with the other what he knows.

hope i have written well to the satisfaction of erstwhile western educated northern hemisphere residents and following western etiquette,as i am a man from eastern etiquette?as,i sincerely believe,that there was never any sarcasm in my writings nor any hatred nor any such wild allegations,that seems to be flying.

as usual i am off topic and hijacking your thread,i guess.:frusty:

sb

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Happy Hindu, before I present my view, I thank you for the wondeful response. And I perfectly agree fully the ten points.

Now, the problem we would face in future,in a forum is, when encountered, some one would take excuse, in the name of 'Different school of Thoughts'. You need to set some modus operandi on this, so that, our debate remains focussed..

Btw,apologize, I missed out to welcome Nacchinarkiniyan.. I enjoyed his totally opposite views, and lets all invite and welcome him.. Im still waiting for his article , "Abstract of Global meet about Karma' ..

Now that we reached 600 posts in a short span, for a while, will keep Kancha/related topics aside from our discussion. Lets stay focussed on the concept of God and explore it though various religious views..

I was not going to write an article. The book I said which deals with Karma is

"Karma and Rebirth in Classical Indian Traditions" edited by Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty, published by Motilal Banarsidass. This contains twelve essays which are the result of two International conferences.

This is an old book. It may be out of print.

BTW my views are not opposite views. These are the views of a Maverick Tamil Brahmin. That is all. :happy:

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

HH, please go through some of the contradictory statements about infinite...Its indeed an interesting subject to explore.. May take long hours of googling to come to a conclusion...(This forums have become an addition I guess.. Depriving sleep)

yep its easy to lose track of time. and it can intefere with other things. am also feeling that am getting addicted to this particular forum (its abt the ppl here). have therefore kept aside time, like not more than 1 hour on a forum, from next week, so am not accussed of cutting family time for the virtual world.

and i suppose its also better to be aware of the fact that we too can become internet addicts that ramble for love and attention in the virtual world and become disassociated from the real world. it can happen to anyone and there is an example already here

Islamic scholars say, "Just as the ocean cannot be contained in a tea cup, the infinite God cannot be contained in the finite body of Jesus."

they also explain God's infinitism thru the infinite number of creations in nature as in thot...comes from associative cognition with the eternal as an entity i suppose, and that 'eternal' is 'conceived' as an inconceivable, impersonal god. the concept of inconceivability of the inifinite 'god' remains the crux for islamic thot.

And some one refuted this' If God is infinite, then we cannot reach to that infinite, cos its infinite.

this concept is addressed in eastern thot thru 'conceivability', that is, in reaching out and connecting to the infinite thru various means, like prayer, etc, as well as moving the energy or the kundalini within oneself towards the vast energy without oneself...and "that energy" or consciousness without oneself ofcourse remains infinite (some also combine it with 'that which still remains "inconceivable"').

islamic and jewish orthodox concept of prayer is more towards surrender, paying respects (or obeisance) to the impersonal god (therefore god can be feared); whereas the hindu and christian concept of prayer is towards surrender and paying respects to the personal god (therefore god can be loved), the hindu goes one step ahead in loving god - by having no barriers in any form of love expressed.

the saguna school appears to codify the unseen part as that which "exists" as existentiality to make it "understood" (and therefore 'seen') as qualities of deification.

the nirguna school appears to codify the unseen part as that which "exists" but cannot be "understood" as qualities that can be made into deification.

(to me) it appears that both are about an individual's ability. In this respect, i request you to read "God gene" that gives a fair idea of why individuals can be understood as "wired" differently and therefore "understanding" things differently.

Basically, uniformity does not appear to be "natural". Nature, by "nature', seeks diversification, to "grow", change, adapt and experiment with itself - that part is called "intelligence" in evolutionary terms. hindu, buddhist (and jain also i think) schools allow for such an evolutionary intelligence to happen, meaning scriptures can be "grown" with time or over time.

The German mathematician Hilbert in his paradox Grand Hotel, refutes the existence of infinite, which is used by aetheists to prove against the non-existence of Christian God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilbert's_paradox_of_the_Grand_Hotel

lets say, for discussion's sake, we consider 2 options:

does the infinite exist or not? is the life and universe finite or infinite?

Though the conceptualization part can stem from very many diff factors, lets say if we go by science (and some vedic schools), then we can say that life on earth is finite, and planets have a shelf life, yet the expanse of the universe itself is infinite.

Galaxies can collide anytime, there is also a theory of probability i think that tries to explain, the probableness or possibilites of when and how it can happen. But the larger universe does not cease to exist. So, in effect, one can combine infinitism with finitism, i suppose, instead of seperating them.

Therefore, my views wud be one general agreement with that of Hilbert (trust mathematicians to explain the infinite thru finitism ) and yet superceded with an other view, or opting to consider / accept a seemingly opposite view from an other direction of possibility.

I am inspired to share a Hindu view of God as ‘One’ and ‘Many’.
Philosophy has the capacity to prove and disprove theories of all streams including science, mathematic, biology, geography, astronomy... But there is a bit of confusion in taking a particular stand with this, cos if an idea could be both rejected/accepted, will have a logical issue.

can we deal with this seperately, covering divergent hindu views can be rather tenuous if they are not detailed well.

hindu logicians have so very well detailed them, that it possibly can take a life-time to keep trying to understand them. am still stuck.

To counter thisAn Islamic scholar said' God can be infinite but not zero and rejects the dual nature...

Overall I think, all religions accept the infinite view..

i suppose if god can be zero, then it makes god as a 'non-existent' non-entity (seemingly advaitha), so the idea for the islam school is to have 'god' starting from one, not zero; to explain that a creator exists.

This too is covered in hindu schools..currently my idea (again) is a combination of both (advaita and dwaitha) with a wee bit of divergence and therefore am sorta unable to fit into any one school specifically (am also currently influenced heavily by vishistadvaitha). Hope i can explain my difficulties in detail in future. Please also note that am an amateur prone to very many mistakes but hopefully seeking to fix errors.

 

[sapr333]

"Karma and Rebirth in Classical Indian Traditions" edited by Wendy Doniger O'Flaherty, published by Motilal Banarsidass. This contains twelve essays which are the result of two International conferences.
:

Used books are available in Amazon, but seems to be pretty expensive 50$ . Let me try do some google based on wendy and gather some free info.If you have any links/.pdf pls share with me.


Btw, whats your view on God & Universe interms of finite & Infinite?

 

[sapr333]

HH, here is yet another view about God's finite/infinite nature, which infact, contradicts my own previous view.

if God were finite, the existence of other gods, His equals or even His superiors in perfection would be possible, and there can also be chance that god does not exist. This supports pluralism & aetheism.

Similarly, as said earlier, there is a good possiblity to reject Jesus Christ as God's coming to earth or any hindu avadhars based upon the Islamic view that, "If God is infinite, he cannot be contained in the Manhood"... ( I think the point of Dwellings /Manifestation is missed out, still im not sure).

Idol worship is one such important 'finite' concept of 'containing' god in an idol.


Hmmm..Truly confusing now!!

Btw, its a good point...which u said.. Reaching infinity through prayers/yoga/kundalini... Yes, mind only can explore or reach to infinitey. valid point

 

[sapr333]

11>>>i suppose if god can be zero, then it makes god as a 'non-existent' non-entity (seemingly advaitha), so the idea for the islam school is to have 'god' starting from one, not zero; to explain that a creator exists.This too is covered in hindu schools..

22>>> Please also note that am an amateur prone to very many mistakes but hopefully seeking to fix errors

1>> Infact, earlier, I was also thinking that 'Zero as Emptiness'. But one scholar wrote, it could also be viewed as "infinitesimally small", and could be used explain either the nature of God or evil. And not to forget, Zero was invented by Hindus.

2>>I'm also an amatuer, and I have made so many suicidal arguments in public forums(aetheist/Islamic/Buddhist/Jewish sites), only to learn something new. I admit,my knowledge is limited only to Internet/ few books primarily western thoughts (I miss a lot bt Hindu philosophy/Debates, cos we find them less in Net/Print). Thats one reason, I have specifically choosen TAMBRAM site,hoping this would be the right place to meet intellects/Scholars/Spiritualists....

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Used books are available in Amazon, but seems to be pretty expensive 50$ . Let me try do some google based on wendy and gather some free info.If you have any links/.pdf pls share with me.


Btw, whats your view on God & Universe interms of finite & Infinite?

This book along with some more books on Karma are available directly from Motilal Banarsidass.

http://mlbd.com/TreeSearchBook.aspx

You can ask for Indian prices. I get books regularly from them. Try the local Motilal Banarsidass book store. You can also subscribe to their regular news letter. I have getting the letter for a long time now.

 

[sapr333]

This book along with some more books on Karma are available directly from Motilal Banarsidass.

http://mlbd.com/TreeSearchBook.aspx

Nacchinarkinaian, now that you have read that book on global meet on Karma, let me ask you the same old question....

Keeping in mind the KARMA, and your subsequent disagreement with Group Karma,...

whats your religious answer to Natural disastar, natural calamities,Tsunami etc.. Why all these things are happening,,esp, caliming the innocent lifes..?

 

[sapr333]

Here is an interesting point which attributes Dowry-Deaths to abolition of Caste in India...

Author Clive Lawton says, official abolition casteism and many traditions relating to occupations, has meant that the pressure has mounted, and with that many hindus find themselves in exaggerated ambitions.And, since then, people started to amaze wealth.

And this excessive pressure, has made men to demand huge dowry, and in turn lead to dowry deaths... Dowry and dowry deaths started only in the last century.

Any contradictory views on this!!

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

Dowry deaths have nothing to do with abolition of castes. The basic reason is Greed and a desire to get quick money. Just look at the number of lotteries in India. This is a world-wide phenomena. In Tamil we say காக்கை உட்கார பனம்பழம் விழுந்த கதை. Everything is attributed to caste.

BTW many communities which were not having the system of dowry have introduced it in the last 50 years. I was told that about 150/200 years back the Boy's father had to give dowry to the girl's people. The way the Tamil Brahmins and many communities are going we will have that in another couple of decades.

 

[sapr333]

Dowry deaths have nothing to do with abolition of castes. The basic reason is Greed and a desire to get quick money. Just look at the number of lotteries in India. This is a world-wide phenomena. In Tamil we say காக்கை உட்கார பனம்பழம் விழுந்த கதை. Everything is attributed to caste.

BTW many communities which were not having the system of dowry have introduced it in the last 50 years. I was told that about 150/200 years back the Boy's father had to give dowry to the girl's people. The way the Tamil Brahmins and many communities are going we will have that in another couple of decades.

The author argues, in a full long passage that, the excessive Greed was developed in Indian society, only after the abolition of caste and traditional vocations. Before that, most of the communities, never looked outwards/other societies, and were content with doing their own jobs and respective earning. For eg, A scavenger was happy in the past, with his paltry earning, and he thought he is doing his duty.. He never had a greed more than that few pennys... But now he aspires his son to become an IAS officer...

Anyways, will try to copy here the entire passage... It seems to be a convincing point.

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

The author argues, in a full long passage that, the excessive Greed was developed in Indian society, only after the abolition of caste and traditional vocations. Before that, most of the communities, never looked outwards/other societies, and were content with doing their own jobs and respective earning. For eg, A scavenger was happy in the past, with his paltry earning, and he thought he is doing his duty.. He never had a greed more than that few pennys... But now he aspires his son to become an IAS officer...

Anyways, will try to copy here the entire passage... It seems to be a convincing point.

I can write half a dozen books like that if some university in the U.S would give me a grant. Trash.

But there is a harsh fact we have to face. On attaining independence we gave a lot of hope to the poorer sections of the society. We told them that if you get educated you could conquer the world. We could not generate enough employment opportunities to fulfill their aspirations.

I remember that we had encouraged our gardener's son in Chennai in his education giving that boy dreams of a rosy feature. We thought since he is also a Dalit he would get a job easily.

But then the boy did not do all that well. He passed his SSLC and decided enough is enough. I got him an offer as a Mill worker in Kovai. But he wanted only a desk job. We had a tough time getting him a job.

What I am trying to say is that

1. We gave the people rosy dreams. The political class played a major role in this. But all of us played our part. We believed in that.

2. Educated unemployment destroyed their dreams. It also destroyed our dreams.

3. We never bothered to teach them about "Dignity of Labour." A concept which has been forgotten because of thousands of years of the caste system where manual labour was considered to be demeaning.

4. Long time back when I had applied for a job in TISCO, there was a column in the Medical certificate that "I was fit to do heavy manual labour". Engineers were expected to do manual labour. That is why our engineers flocked to banks, Insurance companies, civil services and now software. They did not want to be on the shop floor supervising production.

5. It is absolute trash to say that the scavenger was happy in his work. He was happy. But that is the Indian attitude. More people were happy in the earlier days. But not with his work. But he did not see a way out. So he could not even dream of bigger things for his son/daughter. They were not aware of the outside world. A happiness and contentment founded on ignorance.

Now we have allowed everyone to dream and aspire. But we as Indians have failed miserably to fulfill the aspirations of the poorer sections of the society.

Even today I encourage my servant's children to study well. Because that is the only way I know to come up in life.

 

[sapr333]

Nacchinarkinian

There are few interesting points though, but the stalemate here is...Starting point of dowry death is, Abolition of caste (or) Independence?

This article on Hindunet.org by noted S.Court Lawyer Rani Jethmalani shares a different perspective... She claims, the dowry death's are not prominent among poor and people of lower strata.. She even gives a good analysis of 'State wise dowry death data'..I dont find it much as a balanced article, but then the datas are worth pondering

http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_2/msg00193.html

 

[Nacchinarkiniyan]

No one seems to know that the community which is driven by Dowry are the Kottayam Christians. Families are ruined because of dowry. The Church fathers are intermediaries in the acceptance of the Dowry. Does Christianity allow dowry?

That article brings to my memory Germaine Greer and the Women's Liberation Movement. I married a Women's Libber.

The dowry deaths are not an indicator of the status of women. The article ignores the well know fact that violence on women is very common among the lower strata of society. Drunken husband beating the poor wife and taking away her earnings.

If we do an analysis of these people, we can prove statistically that it is the Dalits and other lower castes who are the main culprits. But such a conclusion would be totally wrong. These people are poor and their only crime is poverty and lack of awareness.

This is much more important than the dowry deaths.

And their plight does not get the publicity that the dowry deaths get.

Then working with these women does not get the publicity that you get with Dowry deaths.

The article blames Hinduism for all the ills. But talks about Goddess Kali. Hinduism is the only religion where the Supreme Deity (GOD) is accepted as a Feminine Principle. The Sakthas. The Abrahamic religions which are totally male oriented will never accept this.

You form an opinion and then look for statistics to prove it.

We have been trying to find scape goats instead of the real causes. The scape goat is the caste system. You blame all your social ills on that and absolve yourself of the responsibility of solving the social problems. Typical Indian attitude.

And then there are any number of Indian and western scholars who are willing to write books blaming the caste system for everything under the sun. Their target is Hinduism.