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The times they are a changing :)
- Thread starter kunjuppu
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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/31/opinion/31friedman.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage
this is from thomas friedman in today's new york times.
sometimes, when i read some of the views of fellow tambrams in this forum, i am reminded of how friedman views american attitudes today vs that of indians.
having embraced changed and got a great kick start in the 40 years since independence, i think, we are probably at cross roads. maybe it is a time to introspect, but definitely not a time to regress or doubt.
thank you.
this is from thomas friedman in today's new york times.
sometimes, when i read some of the views of fellow tambrams in this forum, i am reminded of how friedman views american attitudes today vs that of indians.
having embraced changed and got a great kick start in the 40 years since independence, i think, we are probably at cross roads. maybe it is a time to introspect, but definitely not a time to regress or doubt.
thank you.
Last edited:
sangom
0
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,
I agree it is time for us to introspect and doubt - what will happen in the near future; to regress may be impossible. My comments on the topic of the link you gave, are given below:
You may be aware that once upon a time in the 1940's there was a proposal to set up an International Trade Organization (ITO) and all preparations were made to formally create the ITO at a UN Conference on Trade and Employment in Havana, Cuba in 1947. But seeing how the ITO was being structured, and finding that it would not allow the US to have its undisputed sway in matters of international trade, and looking especially at the proposal to have a secretariat with the power to arbitrate trade disputes, etc., within the ITO, the US entered into the General Agreement on Trade and Tariffs (GATT) with some 20 odd countries where it could function as the (unquestioned) leader of a club sort of set up. The US caused the ITO to be abandoned, eventually.
GATT was a club, a club that was increasingly popular. But GATT was not a treaty. The United States (and other nations) joined GATT under its Protocol of Provisional Application. This meant that the provisions of GATT were binding only insofar as they are not inconsistent with a nation's existing legislation. With this clause, the United States could spur trade liberalization or contravene the rules of GATT when politically or economically necessary (US Tariff Commission, 1950, 19-21, 20 note 4).
As world changed the US and other western countries found that their agricultural surpluses, for which huge subsidies were given, side by side with their diminishing population figures, created problems for them in international trade. They then proposed the new World Trade Organization to rope in the poorer countries into a set up akin to the original GATT club type of regime. The aim was to ensure that the western developed countries will have their subsidies and all intact, whereas the poorer countries will be driven to abolishing their subsidies which will make their exports costlier in the international market. Thus the interests of the developed countries, and mainly of US, will be protected. Despite many objections and misgivings, the poorer countries were made to sign the new GATT on the dotted line in the Uruguay round and the WTO came into existence. The new regime compelled the developing countries to follow the rules framed by the rich and thus ensured a larger captive market for US and the other developed countries.
But the IT boom and the outsourcing practice brought about unexpected changes. The wars in Iraq and Afghanistan also adversely affected the US. Finally the financial meltdown came. Now US wants some new ruse to insulate its markets wherever it suits US interest and is forced to practice more blatantly, what it has been preaching as bad and against WTO conventions, for others.
The Indian industrialists have only US as their Mecca since Europe as a market has also shrunk now. What Mr. Friedman says is very true: "America also seems at times to be running away from the world it invented and that India is adopting", not at times, but continuously and surely, IMO.
There is a saying in Malayalam "தான் குழிச்ச குழியில் தான் தன்னெ வீழும்"; "one will fall into the very trap he makes for trapping someone else". US is experiencing that phase. But India is following US' advice faithfully and it is just a matter of time before India also falls into the same kind of morass. The difference between the two, IMO, is that US can still and will make yet another new trap and have respite for some more time; but India, when it comes to a similar situation, will be clueless as to what it should do and where to go! China is different in very many ways.
dr zinta
The Hindu : Arts / Cinema : U.K. varsity to confer honorary doctorate on Preity Zinta
my vote is for a dr. (trisha) krishnan
The Hindu : Arts / Cinema : U.K. varsity to confer honorary doctorate on Preity Zinta
my vote is for a dr. (trisha) krishnan
dear sangom,
thank you for your reply.
back in the 70s, 80s and even in early 90s, the most sought after courses in all the universities here used to be i.t. related. there was a dearth of talent flowing to other professions. probably like india since the millenium, it has been like this in india.
with y2k and outsourcing taking huge strides, i.t. jobs no longer have the attraction they once did. there is an inevitable feeling, that no matter what, at some point, the job will either flow abroad. even more devastating is the knowledge,that people in india or china can do the same job better.
there is always a cream of the crop in canada/usa who are the best in the world. but i am talking about,s the vast majority of ordinary average skilled americans/canadians, to whom an i.t. job was a well paying career. that is gone, and there is residual bitterness, in many as they have been forced to take lower paying jobs. obama keenly realizes this and is fighting a last stand to save such jobs. i don't know what will come of it.
usa/canada are still countries, where an ordinary person can come from any part of the world and make it. because the immigrant comes with high hopes, great work ethic and makes full use of the great infrastructure, material and financial. the mostly corrupt free governments and a favourable tax system also contributes to the rise of the immigrant. the immigrants are among the highest contributors to the u.s. technological lead, and not sure how this would impact the u.s. with the current restrictive new immigration laws.
re indian industrialists, i think, they are all taking a position, before obama lands in india. they have a stake in u.s. prosperity and open trade. for without the usa, there is no market for the bulk of our i.t. services. try as much as we can to diversify, it is difficult - europe is divided by languages and culture and not so easy to crack. china is just about impossible to crack. what else is left? japan is on the decline with an ageing population and a badly financial systems. south east asia, is a competitor. so a prosperous usa is the only hope.
i think there is hope for usa only because of the built in checks and balances within that country. in how many other countries, would they permit, the level of criticism of the iraqi war, and the number of public documents that are leaked out? today is elections in the usa for their lok sabha and 1/3 rajya sabha.. let us see what these changes portend.
definitely, most of the folks here agree, that the world will be tougher for our children in the usa or canada. my doctor swears by that. housing prices, for one, has hit the roof in toronto. houses that went for $250,000 10 years ago, are now going for $1,000,000. it is suspected that we are sitting on a bubble just like the usa did a few years ago. for people like myself, who made life defining decisions 37 years ago, to leave india, we could never have anticipated this situation.
on the one hand, inspite of all warts, india is considered a rising star. proof of this, is all my relatives and friends, who have in the past 10 - 15 years, considerably moved upscale, and these are ordinary people, with no special talent. for the pardesis of my generation, however there is no going back to india - our children are canadians, americans and proud of it too. i would be lying, if i do not confess, that on odd occassions, that i do feel a lump in my throat, of non existent opportunities in the india of my youth, and what it is today and 'what could have been' for me. but we all leave make our bed, and it is fitting that we lie in it.
thank you again.
The Year of the Indian-American Candidate - Yahoo! News
today is election day in the usa. of interest is the number of indian american standing in the elections. a great drive and determination for some of these folks. i wish them success..even though i do not agree with the politics of some of them.
unfortunately none of them are of tambram heritage.
today is election day in the usa. of interest is the number of indian american standing in the elections. a great drive and determination for some of these folks. i wish them success..even though i do not agree with the politics of some of them.
unfortunately none of them are of tambram heritage.
publish and lose a friend....
It is nice to have feedbacks, however vehement they may be. This particular post (#880 in ic thread long closed) has drawn heavy criticism from someone I like and regard. Sometimes a post defines a friendship, and I am somewhat sad, this post, I feel, has created a wall between us. Since I did not build the wall, I cannot demolish it. Or maybe the wall is just my imagination. At this point, only my friend knows…
i feel obliged not only to defend this post, but perhaps try to clarify certain contents. I disagree that my post below is a recipe to the readership youth, to abandon vegetarianism, partake meat and imbibe alcohol, and go seek out an ic partner. I beg to differ on all counts, but I feel some clarifications may be the need of the day. so here goes…
Today’s comments are in red italics.
it is not a crime for a brahmin to drink or eat meat. it is a crime to do those, and yet claim to be superior and exclusive. all this proves, is that we are no better or no worse than any other group.
- means just that. no crime has been committed here. If we are so proud to quote extensively our vedic age scriptures, it might also behoove well for some to resort to vedic age food habits – after all Brahmins of yore did eat meat and consume soma juice. Mine is not an incitement to eat or not eat meat or drink alcohol. Mine is an appeal, not to pass judgement on others, based on our prejudices
- How each one behaves is his own business. Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental. Was it not here that someone pointed out, that for one finger pointing out, there are three pointing inwards?
-
- . I see all the matrimonial ads, and every one of them proclaim that the boy or girl in question, is a vegetarian and teetotaller, and would expect the same.So I don’t know who is eating meat among the tambrams. Either that, or all those folks in the ads are lying.
-
- Those who do, have their reasons for doing so, and should not feel guilty. Or the rest of the community adopt a ‘holier than thou’ approach. If you don’t like it, leave it alone. Do not cast aspirations on others. Even worse, is for the meat eaters to either disparage the faithful or an absolute crime, if they hide their preferences and wear poonal and do shraddhams. Even I think, that these cannot co-exist..-
since india's independence, our community has gone through enormous changes. our career and education aspirations have moved at a faster pace than our mental ability to adjust to the accompanying challenge of values. if success means an MBA at harvard, and we have in our scriptures that to cross the kala pani is to lose caste, it is not much of a brainer to understand who will be the winner.
also in other communities for the past 33 years, since the dawn of the dravidian reformation came, with the rule of dmk, even more enormous changes have taken place. for the first time ever, and i repeat, for the first time ever, their familiar order and hierarchy have been threatened. no longer, can they or will they or should they, look at education as something that is not of them. thanks to periyar and MK and MGR, the farmer or the blacksmith or potter or sthapathi of today, has no guarantee that his son will follow him.
i can understand the discomfort and dismay among the older generation, and the older thinking younger generation, about the loss of values, traditions and ultimately a threat to their clan. not unlike the lament for a declining brahmin count in tamil nadu.
-
These are my observations and I do not proclaim these to be gospel truth.
-
- When I see the level of anger at some of my views, I am surprised. The best way to treat it if you do not like it, is to consign it to the waste bin.
-
- I am only reminded of the ‘trisangu sorgam’ status here – the bulk of us want to adopt the changes, but I think, we find that however selectively we try to do so, some of the new clothes causes discomfort to the soul.
-
- We might want to brush up on our Newton re the cause and effect syndromes. If we do something new, there is bound to be unforeseeable or unacceptable consequences. One big example is the droves of youth settling in the USA and the consequence of ‘abandoned’ parents back in India. I do not know when all this started in late 50s, the then parents foresaw the depletion of tambram numbers in the mother state, and exponential increase of transplants two oceans away. Is it not better to prepare for consequences than simply wishing them away?
-
- This is more evident in our children, who not only embrace all our changes, but incorporate more of theirs, and we wish for turning back a clock that seems to be ticking faster than ever before. No matter how ‘liberal’ we appear to ourselves, our children appear to go one step further than our level of comfort. This is a fact of life, I think. .-
-
to me, the answer is to embrace new comers. if your daughter marries from outside the caste, evaluate him on his credentials and ability to take care of your daughter, and not on the caste. why not consider a good candidate as a son gained and not as a daughter lost. there are two colours and sides to a shield, as we all know form that old story.
is it not possible for a son in law from another group to be taught and respect and practice the brahmin traditions. is it not just possible to inculcate brahmins customs to a non brahmin daughter in law. where there is a will there is always a way. the parents are the key, to provide the leadership, the support and above all be standard beacon to the rest of the community, steadfast not only in their support and tolerate no bigotry towards their children.
these are enlightened parents, and continue to be considered enlightened, till such caste is no longer a source of concern or issue. we must not forget, that in the overall context of india, unless we change our attitudes, we are in for a fragmentation built nation, which are unravel at the whiff of any strong external wind like the USSR of old did. does not take long to separate, but it takes forever to be united.
-
I am a person of solutions - Flexible and executable. I cannot stand someone waddling in a quagmire of problems and unable/unwilling to seek out solutions, and blaming the rest of the world for his/her predicament. ‘do something’ I would scream.
- Many of the life defining issues are time sensitive. Unless the solution is quickly found, and adjustments made, or compromises accepted, the situation is only going to get worse. Like the issue of unmarried boys. Enough said.
-
- I think we can change our mindsets if we want to and if we can think through the benefits. Many a times, our emotions block any progress towards a path of rational problem solving. That too is ok, for those are the human qualities that define us. But when the victims of our prejudices are our children, I think, it is only right that finding succour to our children’s issues should be our primary goal.
-
- I believe that environment has a great deal in what we are. I am what I am, because in living memory, my family has no ties to the land, we were immigrants in new cities for over 3 generations, and esconced in the lifestyle of a lower middle class clerkhood. I have no connections to agraharams, but only to mixed neighbourhoods of royapettah or santhome. Hence I find that what many here consider unacceptable, to be quaint or prejudicial.
-
- still in the days I grew up, we did not look at girls, even though we wanted to. I think it is impossible today. Those days of suppression of minds due to religious or cultural strictures, appear to have disappeared from the tambram society. It is not because of the youth, but it is because parents like me think it is no longer relevant, or they themselves were unfair victims and do not wish to pass on those restrictions to their children.
-
- Maybe in the agraharam days, only tambram girls looked only at tambram boys, because only these were visible. Today it is different. We can train our children to as many restrictions and ‘don’t’s’ that we want. There is no guarantee what we teach will be followed. The saddest words I hear, ‘I brought up my child so well, and now they throw mud in my face by marrying…’ which in some cases, were tambrams also but not of the acceptable social circle .-
i agree that the rich have their own rules, beyond anyone. the middle class appears affected but i think these are quicker to adapt. i think our poorer tambram brethren are more affected and form the bulk of the traditional element. just to give you an example, in the premises of this forum, there used to swayamvarams, which are no longer held. all over, i used to see the pix, and judging from the participants, it appeared to be the lower middle or lower groups of tambrams. i could be ofcourse completely off the mark, but my dealings with this group, have often found me amazed at the chips on these folks shoulders.
in the light of increased intercaste marriages, it is my gut feeling that very soon some day, this is going to be an avalanche and those parents who still hold on to outmoded values, are in for much grief and heartaches.
even now the vast majority of marriages in india in my family is within tambrams only. I am only an observer from far. I note the ic marriages, and what I wonder at, is how little those get attention or ostracization. To me it is a world of improvement in our attitudes. It came too late for me. mercifully not for my children’s generation.
-
personally, i think, there are enough number of folks in this forum, who can in some sort of way provide guidance, counselling and advice, to identify values and coach them as to how to bring up children in this modern era, and provide them with werewithals for finding suitable spouses. harping on anti ic marriages, i fear will only solidify the youngsters resolve to do what they want, and thus everyone ends up in a lose lose situation.
- Don’t we prepare for exams? For interviews? Why should we be silent about some of the most important life defining events? The more we talk about these to our children, even expressing our disapproval loudly and clearly, is better than silence. Ultimately, we may find, that our influence on their decisions is nil. What is destined to happen will happen. Que sera sera. In my family, the strictest parents are the ones faced with ic marrying children. Parents like me appear not to have that situation, even though I would not have any objections. Life sometimes takes strange paths..-
- i feel sad that I have to further my original note, to the point of losing a friend. So be it.
-
- My own mother was of the old school. In my teens, she opposed iyer iyengar marriages because of the clash of the madisars. She always knew how I felt, and as she aged, she veered towards my points of view on many many social issues. Not because I was right. But because she saw the unreturnable change of the world. Mom was a good scout – ‘be prepared’ was her motto too. The world is changing, and most of us try keep pace with it. Others wish to slow the world and this is like tying a rope to an uncontrollable bull, and trying to rein it. We all know what happens there!!
It is nice to have feedbacks, however vehement they may be. This particular post (#880 in ic thread long closed) has drawn heavy criticism from someone I like and regard. Sometimes a post defines a friendship, and I am somewhat sad, this post, I feel, has created a wall between us. Since I did not build the wall, I cannot demolish it. Or maybe the wall is just my imagination. At this point, only my friend knows…
i feel obliged not only to defend this post, but perhaps try to clarify certain contents. I disagree that my post below is a recipe to the readership youth, to abandon vegetarianism, partake meat and imbibe alcohol, and go seek out an ic partner. I beg to differ on all counts, but I feel some clarifications may be the need of the day. so here goes…
Today’s comments are in red italics.
it is not a crime for a brahmin to drink or eat meat. it is a crime to do those, and yet claim to be superior and exclusive. all this proves, is that we are no better or no worse than any other group.
- means just that. no crime has been committed here. If we are so proud to quote extensively our vedic age scriptures, it might also behoove well for some to resort to vedic age food habits – after all Brahmins of yore did eat meat and consume soma juice. Mine is not an incitement to eat or not eat meat or drink alcohol. Mine is an appeal, not to pass judgement on others, based on our prejudices
- How each one behaves is his own business. Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental. Was it not here that someone pointed out, that for one finger pointing out, there are three pointing inwards?
-
- . I see all the matrimonial ads, and every one of them proclaim that the boy or girl in question, is a vegetarian and teetotaller, and would expect the same.So I don’t know who is eating meat among the tambrams. Either that, or all those folks in the ads are lying.
-
- Those who do, have their reasons for doing so, and should not feel guilty. Or the rest of the community adopt a ‘holier than thou’ approach. If you don’t like it, leave it alone. Do not cast aspirations on others. Even worse, is for the meat eaters to either disparage the faithful or an absolute crime, if they hide their preferences and wear poonal and do shraddhams. Even I think, that these cannot co-exist..-
since india's independence, our community has gone through enormous changes. our career and education aspirations have moved at a faster pace than our mental ability to adjust to the accompanying challenge of values. if success means an MBA at harvard, and we have in our scriptures that to cross the kala pani is to lose caste, it is not much of a brainer to understand who will be the winner.
also in other communities for the past 33 years, since the dawn of the dravidian reformation came, with the rule of dmk, even more enormous changes have taken place. for the first time ever, and i repeat, for the first time ever, their familiar order and hierarchy have been threatened. no longer, can they or will they or should they, look at education as something that is not of them. thanks to periyar and MK and MGR, the farmer or the blacksmith or potter or sthapathi of today, has no guarantee that his son will follow him.
i can understand the discomfort and dismay among the older generation, and the older thinking younger generation, about the loss of values, traditions and ultimately a threat to their clan. not unlike the lament for a declining brahmin count in tamil nadu.
-
These are my observations and I do not proclaim these to be gospel truth.
-
- When I see the level of anger at some of my views, I am surprised. The best way to treat it if you do not like it, is to consign it to the waste bin.
-
- I am only reminded of the ‘trisangu sorgam’ status here – the bulk of us want to adopt the changes, but I think, we find that however selectively we try to do so, some of the new clothes causes discomfort to the soul.
-
- We might want to brush up on our Newton re the cause and effect syndromes. If we do something new, there is bound to be unforeseeable or unacceptable consequences. One big example is the droves of youth settling in the USA and the consequence of ‘abandoned’ parents back in India. I do not know when all this started in late 50s, the then parents foresaw the depletion of tambram numbers in the mother state, and exponential increase of transplants two oceans away. Is it not better to prepare for consequences than simply wishing them away?
-
- This is more evident in our children, who not only embrace all our changes, but incorporate more of theirs, and we wish for turning back a clock that seems to be ticking faster than ever before. No matter how ‘liberal’ we appear to ourselves, our children appear to go one step further than our level of comfort. This is a fact of life, I think. .-
-
to me, the answer is to embrace new comers. if your daughter marries from outside the caste, evaluate him on his credentials and ability to take care of your daughter, and not on the caste. why not consider a good candidate as a son gained and not as a daughter lost. there are two colours and sides to a shield, as we all know form that old story.
is it not possible for a son in law from another group to be taught and respect and practice the brahmin traditions. is it not just possible to inculcate brahmins customs to a non brahmin daughter in law. where there is a will there is always a way. the parents are the key, to provide the leadership, the support and above all be standard beacon to the rest of the community, steadfast not only in their support and tolerate no bigotry towards their children.
these are enlightened parents, and continue to be considered enlightened, till such caste is no longer a source of concern or issue. we must not forget, that in the overall context of india, unless we change our attitudes, we are in for a fragmentation built nation, which are unravel at the whiff of any strong external wind like the USSR of old did. does not take long to separate, but it takes forever to be united.
-
I am a person of solutions - Flexible and executable. I cannot stand someone waddling in a quagmire of problems and unable/unwilling to seek out solutions, and blaming the rest of the world for his/her predicament. ‘do something’ I would scream.
- Many of the life defining issues are time sensitive. Unless the solution is quickly found, and adjustments made, or compromises accepted, the situation is only going to get worse. Like the issue of unmarried boys. Enough said.
-
- I think we can change our mindsets if we want to and if we can think through the benefits. Many a times, our emotions block any progress towards a path of rational problem solving. That too is ok, for those are the human qualities that define us. But when the victims of our prejudices are our children, I think, it is only right that finding succour to our children’s issues should be our primary goal.
-
- I believe that environment has a great deal in what we are. I am what I am, because in living memory, my family has no ties to the land, we were immigrants in new cities for over 3 generations, and esconced in the lifestyle of a lower middle class clerkhood. I have no connections to agraharams, but only to mixed neighbourhoods of royapettah or santhome. Hence I find that what many here consider unacceptable, to be quaint or prejudicial.
-
- still in the days I grew up, we did not look at girls, even though we wanted to. I think it is impossible today. Those days of suppression of minds due to religious or cultural strictures, appear to have disappeared from the tambram society. It is not because of the youth, but it is because parents like me think it is no longer relevant, or they themselves were unfair victims and do not wish to pass on those restrictions to their children.
-
- Maybe in the agraharam days, only tambram girls looked only at tambram boys, because only these were visible. Today it is different. We can train our children to as many restrictions and ‘don’t’s’ that we want. There is no guarantee what we teach will be followed. The saddest words I hear, ‘I brought up my child so well, and now they throw mud in my face by marrying…’ which in some cases, were tambrams also but not of the acceptable social circle .-
i agree that the rich have their own rules, beyond anyone. the middle class appears affected but i think these are quicker to adapt. i think our poorer tambram brethren are more affected and form the bulk of the traditional element. just to give you an example, in the premises of this forum, there used to swayamvarams, which are no longer held. all over, i used to see the pix, and judging from the participants, it appeared to be the lower middle or lower groups of tambrams. i could be ofcourse completely off the mark, but my dealings with this group, have often found me amazed at the chips on these folks shoulders.
in the light of increased intercaste marriages, it is my gut feeling that very soon some day, this is going to be an avalanche and those parents who still hold on to outmoded values, are in for much grief and heartaches.
even now the vast majority of marriages in india in my family is within tambrams only. I am only an observer from far. I note the ic marriages, and what I wonder at, is how little those get attention or ostracization. To me it is a world of improvement in our attitudes. It came too late for me. mercifully not for my children’s generation.
-
personally, i think, there are enough number of folks in this forum, who can in some sort of way provide guidance, counselling and advice, to identify values and coach them as to how to bring up children in this modern era, and provide them with werewithals for finding suitable spouses. harping on anti ic marriages, i fear will only solidify the youngsters resolve to do what they want, and thus everyone ends up in a lose lose situation.
- Don’t we prepare for exams? For interviews? Why should we be silent about some of the most important life defining events? The more we talk about these to our children, even expressing our disapproval loudly and clearly, is better than silence. Ultimately, we may find, that our influence on their decisions is nil. What is destined to happen will happen. Que sera sera. In my family, the strictest parents are the ones faced with ic marrying children. Parents like me appear not to have that situation, even though I would not have any objections. Life sometimes takes strange paths..-
- i feel sad that I have to further my original note, to the point of losing a friend. So be it.
-
- My own mother was of the old school. In my teens, she opposed iyer iyengar marriages because of the clash of the madisars. She always knew how I felt, and as she aged, she veered towards my points of view on many many social issues. Not because I was right. But because she saw the unreturnable change of the world. Mom was a good scout – ‘be prepared’ was her motto too. The world is changing, and most of us try keep pace with it. Others wish to slow the world and this is like tying a rope to an uncontrollable bull, and trying to rein it. We all know what happens there!!
sangom
0
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,
On reading your post # 33 above (somewhat lengthy, therefore, not quoted here), my first reaction was, why unnecessarily drag a personal difference expressed by one of your dear friends, into the open forum. Would it not have been more appropriate if you had answered him by PM?
In this forum there are many members - that is my judgement at least - who are comfortable with the gradual changes which may be coming as a result of various developments in our tambram society here but are surely not ready for drastic and rapid changes, to listen to prognostication of what might, for example, sweep over the entire tambram community (with very few, if at all, exceptions) after a number of years. Hence as forum members, and as has been rightly stated by Shri Praveen, let us be sensitive to their feelings. After all, as some of the members have mildly pointed out here, these members have not criticised the many changes and new practices which our tambram diaspora have felt necessary and/or desirable and adapted their ways in tune with those of the societies they live in. I also observe that there are tambram populations abroad who are able to lead lives which are not very much at deviance from what they would have had, had they continued in Chennai or India.
Our religious heritage is so ancient and so complex that any sort of view/s can probably be justified if only the debator has the required skill. The most visible example is our philosophical arena itself. From one and the same prasthaanatraya, we have advaita, visishtadvaita, dvaita and a few more philosopies under “vedanta” itself, not to speak of the older darsanas. In such a milieu, it is futile to say, “if you eat meat, drink and then hide their preferences and wear a poonal and perform sraddha, it will not be a crime”, while, with all your spirit of modernism, you think these cannot co-exist! If you can hold such views, what prevents others from holding some other set of views?
Take your own observations for example; You say :-
1. it is not a crime for a brahmin to drink or eat meat. it is a crime to do those, and yet claim to be superior and exclusive. all this proves, is that we are no better or no worse than any other group.
2. If we are so proud to quote extensively our vedic age scriptures, it might also behoove well for some to resort to vedic age food habits – after all Brahmins of yore did eat meat and consume soma juice.
3. How each one behaves is his own business. Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental. Was it not here that someone pointed out, that for one finger pointing out, there are three pointing inwards?
Honestly, I do not understand the logic of the above statements at all. If vedic brahmins ate meat and drank soma, and you accept that, why should you hold that a brahmin who does those things today and still holds himself to be a brahmin and hence superior, be treated as committing a crime? If broadmindedness is your basic principle, you should let him hold that view; especially since you subsequently state “How each one behaves is his own business.”
The real problem seems to me to be a tendency for your style of presentation to appear as extolling a certain way of life, certain improvements and changes to be the most desirable and inevitable, and a repeated reference to people who whine, who do not take initiative, do not have the panache and skillsets to come up in the modern world etc. Will it not be correct for someone on the other side to feel the same way, viz., “How each one behaves is his own business.”? In addition don’t you feel that these also are tantamount to“pass judgement on others, based on our prejudices”, when viewed from the other side? Your principle of “Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental.” also seems to get violated when such comments are seen from you.
Now, coming to “When I see the level of anger at some of my views, I am surprised. The best way to treat it if you do not like it, is to consign it to the waste bin.” Here, as you know, Shri Praveen has clearly indicated that we cannot claim unlimited freedom of speech and have to keep the sensitivities of other members very much in mind. So, your again harping on the point is not correct, I would say, especially when your friend has been circumspect in conveying his/her views outside of this forum (I suppose).
To sum up, my view is, whatever our individual convictions may be on any topic, let us try to understand the sensitivities of other members also while expressing our views on any subject. If we get a negative feedback, like the one you have received from “someone you like and regard”, then consider it as an indication, instead of coming to the open forum and trying to best that friend which, I think, is a sure way of distancing him further.
I do hope you will see my comments in a dispassionate mood and take it if it convinces you. If it does not, and you are making a rejoinder to this, I will not like to offend you by making further observations on this topic.
Regards,
On reading your post # 33 above (somewhat lengthy, therefore, not quoted here), my first reaction was, why unnecessarily drag a personal difference expressed by one of your dear friends, into the open forum. Would it not have been more appropriate if you had answered him by PM?
In this forum there are many members - that is my judgement at least - who are comfortable with the gradual changes which may be coming as a result of various developments in our tambram society here but are surely not ready for drastic and rapid changes, to listen to prognostication of what might, for example, sweep over the entire tambram community (with very few, if at all, exceptions) after a number of years. Hence as forum members, and as has been rightly stated by Shri Praveen, let us be sensitive to their feelings. After all, as some of the members have mildly pointed out here, these members have not criticised the many changes and new practices which our tambram diaspora have felt necessary and/or desirable and adapted their ways in tune with those of the societies they live in. I also observe that there are tambram populations abroad who are able to lead lives which are not very much at deviance from what they would have had, had they continued in Chennai or India.
Our religious heritage is so ancient and so complex that any sort of view/s can probably be justified if only the debator has the required skill. The most visible example is our philosophical arena itself. From one and the same prasthaanatraya, we have advaita, visishtadvaita, dvaita and a few more philosopies under “vedanta” itself, not to speak of the older darsanas. In such a milieu, it is futile to say, “if you eat meat, drink and then hide their preferences and wear a poonal and perform sraddha, it will not be a crime”, while, with all your spirit of modernism, you think these cannot co-exist! If you can hold such views, what prevents others from holding some other set of views?
Take your own observations for example; You say :-
1. it is not a crime for a brahmin to drink or eat meat. it is a crime to do those, and yet claim to be superior and exclusive. all this proves, is that we are no better or no worse than any other group.
2. If we are so proud to quote extensively our vedic age scriptures, it might also behoove well for some to resort to vedic age food habits – after all Brahmins of yore did eat meat and consume soma juice.
3. How each one behaves is his own business. Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental. Was it not here that someone pointed out, that for one finger pointing out, there are three pointing inwards?
Honestly, I do not understand the logic of the above statements at all. If vedic brahmins ate meat and drank soma, and you accept that, why should you hold that a brahmin who does those things today and still holds himself to be a brahmin and hence superior, be treated as committing a crime? If broadmindedness is your basic principle, you should let him hold that view; especially since you subsequently state “How each one behaves is his own business.”
The real problem seems to me to be a tendency for your style of presentation to appear as extolling a certain way of life, certain improvements and changes to be the most desirable and inevitable, and a repeated reference to people who whine, who do not take initiative, do not have the panache and skillsets to come up in the modern world etc. Will it not be correct for someone on the other side to feel the same way, viz., “How each one behaves is his own business.”? In addition don’t you feel that these also are tantamount to“pass judgement on others, based on our prejudices”, when viewed from the other side? Your principle of “Let us learn to respect diversity among ourselves, without feeling guilty or overtly judegemental.” also seems to get violated when such comments are seen from you.
Now, coming to “When I see the level of anger at some of my views, I am surprised. The best way to treat it if you do not like it, is to consign it to the waste bin.” Here, as you know, Shri Praveen has clearly indicated that we cannot claim unlimited freedom of speech and have to keep the sensitivities of other members very much in mind. So, your again harping on the point is not correct, I would say, especially when your friend has been circumspect in conveying his/her views outside of this forum (I suppose).
To sum up, my view is, whatever our individual convictions may be on any topic, let us try to understand the sensitivities of other members also while expressing our views on any subject. If we get a negative feedback, like the one you have received from “someone you like and regard”, then consider it as an indication, instead of coming to the open forum and trying to best that friend which, I think, is a sure way of distancing him further.
I do hope you will see my comments in a dispassionate mood and take it if it convinces you. If it does not, and you are making a rejoinder to this, I will not like to offend you by making further observations on this topic.
Regards,
H
hoover
Guest
I am ardent follower of vegitarianism and my whole family is so.
Germans are non vegetarians and so the nearabout whole westerners, inspite of that they are superior in many human achievements.
non veg food not harms to material intelligence but it certainly causes to humanity.
non veg food essentially, repeat issentially causes increase in violant and materialisitic nature.
second and most important, you may deduce this by observing. that those people whose atleast two previous generations are vegetarians are less violant and more benevolant ( this referance of two gen. is important because one converted to vegetarianism is not sufficiant to his nature being non violant)
non violance obviously increases crativity.
the connection of non vegetarian food is not with intelligence but certainly there is a link between non veg food and violance.
Germans are non vegetarians and so the nearabout whole westerners, inspite of that they are superior in many human achievements.
non veg food not harms to material intelligence but it certainly causes to humanity.
non veg food essentially, repeat issentially causes increase in violant and materialisitic nature.
second and most important, you may deduce this by observing. that those people whose atleast two previous generations are vegetarians are less violant and more benevolant ( this referance of two gen. is important because one converted to vegetarianism is not sufficiant to his nature being non violant)
non violance obviously increases crativity.
the connection of non vegetarian food is not with intelligence but certainly there is a link between non veg food and violance.
I wish to thank sangom for his reply.
This post is not intended to be a reply to him but more an academic observation of how posts and threads are viewed in this forum, particularly of late. This is written with a view to an academic scrutiny and not an emotion based epistle. So if you chose to peruse this rather long drabble, and if you feel your blood pressure rising, please hit the ‘skip’ button immediately, or return to it, when calmer moods prevail.
My intentions are solely to just confuse you and put you to sleep, which is the hallmark of any good text book or research article.
To start off, re the loss of a friend in this forum.
This is a newly found gentleman and what it turned be, is that I am not what he thought I was, and vice versa. However in the short space of time, he opened my eyes to many things and for which I will be grateful.
But I do not have any warm feelings any more when I exchange mails, and I think, that is a requirement of any friendship – anticipation and joy through communication. Inevitable under current circumstances, but sad all the same. Maybe I can explain…
The moniker & attitude we adopt in any forum, can be completely different from our private values.
But when the private values are themselves displayed with double standard, I do not know what to do. take for example, here is one who has in private admitted to me, that his son has married out of caste, with his full support.
He takes a public stand against ic marriages, which may be ok, except in his private email to me, he goes on to suggest that I should desists from writing my own views, because it might ‘corrupt’ young minds.
Well if it was ok for his son to marry out of caste (that too with his support) but not for other’s sons? What kind of logic is that? I think one needs to be consistent in one’s values, with friends, for to claim what is good for the goose, is not good enough for the gander, confuses me. why the double standard?
I think there are others in this forum, who initially claimed to have no objection to ic marriages, but eventually took to bashing me for supposedly advocating ic marriages, meat eating and what not. At least be consistent, when between your different posts in the forum.
It gives a sense of betrayal, when thoughtful and intelligent posts, are followed by admonishments more befitting the oldest member of the drones club which pg wodehouse has graphed so wonderfully. This bipolarity of some members confuses me, as I am not sure where they stand anymore, and who is the true mccoy.
RE confusing and misleading young minds, I give the audience here much more credit than that. I think readers are mature enough to think for themselves and evaluate each issue on its merits. To think otherwise, would be insensitive and probably smacks of arrogance, imo.
it would be presumptuous of me that i have the power to drive a young mind to the proverbial kuttichevaru. maybe some examples of poorly constructed or inarticulate english? but definitely not drive anyone to action to commit blasphemy!
Take the recently closed missionary thread for instance. Post upon post was nothing but a pouring of vitriol. I am ashamed, even some members whom I respect a lot, participated in this. what next? The last few posts came close to inciting violence. This has been done before in this forum, except the vitriol was against muslims. Apart from the fact that this wrong, let me step through the traditions of our community. We tambrams have never been one for violence and hatred.
We participate in violence, and soon we will have mothers who lose their sons, sisters who lose their brothers and wives their husbands. Violence only begets more violence, and ultimately destroys the participants.
History fraught with such examples. Meanwhile those that instigate this, are comfortable old men, whose own children are in far away usa or Australia, and these instigators exhort our youth to be the cannon fodder for the next communal incident.
Now tell me, is this type of posts by honourable members, more in tune with our dharma? Is this the moral fibre that we wish to credit to our children? To hate our neighbours? Such attitudes have no place in the present multicultural multi religious India. They do more harm to the country than what these hate mongers can fathom.
To counter missionary zeal is to attack the root causes that makes these flourish. I appreciate sangom’s note on his new thread, along with happy hindu’s reply. We should be more inclusive of our dalits and other castes, if we wish to have Hinduism thrive in india.
An elitist Brahmin attitude, removed from reality, cannot call the shots and cry ‘wolf’ at the sight of the missionaries, while comfortably hiding their hypcracies under the cloak of tradition.
My own threads, I begin, with a view to academic discussion. that is all our my intentions are.
Ours is a fascinating community and I am proud to be part of the same. Because, and only because, the vast majority of us, have accepted changes and modified our behaviour and values, as per the demands of the time, and moved on.
Those vast majority are not represented here, because they are just too busy with their daily challenges. the vast majority of us are not simply survivors, but thrive positively in the face of adversity.
Take that (adversity) out, and we will all morph into a bunch of government clerks like our grandfathers. There is a lot to be said for taking challenges head on. Why is everyone so upset and call me insensitive to the poor, when all I am attempting is to raise the bar for those unfortunate among us, and perhaps motivate them to seek better than their current fortunes. Tough love is hard to give. Even harder to appreciate.
I am no radical, and I believe, that I only project a snapshot of the current trends and how we should deal with it. One opinion. To some, I may be current, but to some I am 5 years ahead. Or 15 or 25 or 50..it does not matter.
I like to think that I present the face of future and future will come with a vengeance and with far more surety than any prediction from an astrologer. We can fool ourselves to reality all we can, reality cannot be simply wished away.
Those that do not wish to look at the future, can be the equivalent of an ostrich and dig a hole in the ground and refuse to look out. That is their prerogative.
Then there are others, who are attracted to these type of posts like iron to magnet, and when the proper thing for them is to press the ‘skip’ button, they stay behind, partake of the feast, and then complain about ‘insensitivities’. I am afraid, it should be folks like me, who should do the complaining, about such members adorning behaviours unbecoming a good guest.
I think Praveen got the gist right, in his closing statement to the missionary thread ..
‘…those in India are not comfortable in questioning the foundation/basics of our religion. They are also very very sensitive and prefer to take things as is and continue in the same old way that they have been shown by the previous generations. Comparatively, they are still a good 20 years behind (minimum). They might have the money, the power and all things materialistic, but inside they need to grow up and they need to grow up before they are left out. While the people outside India are very much in tune with the current scenario, their views and opinions are, unfortunately, very much seen as a "anti-brahmin"….. Ignorning reality and continuing to live in a broken dream is like fooling yourself.’
I could not have said it any better..for we all know that time and tide wait for no man. No matter how kind Praveen may be to ‘sensitivities’, I think, in the light of the stand he has taken above, the moderator role should be more active to tone down incendiaries and vitrioles, by doing what we used to do in the good old days, ie delete the poisonous posts, and leave the thread alone. That would make more sense than closing an entire thread. Why cut the nose to spite the face? N’est pas?
At one point I too will leave the forum. But I would like it be of my own accord, and not to be hounded out, or be told how to write, what to write and when to write. That would smack of sensorship, or in this case under the guise of ‘sensitivities’, mob rule.
Thank you.
This post is not intended to be a reply to him but more an academic observation of how posts and threads are viewed in this forum, particularly of late. This is written with a view to an academic scrutiny and not an emotion based epistle. So if you chose to peruse this rather long drabble, and if you feel your blood pressure rising, please hit the ‘skip’ button immediately, or return to it, when calmer moods prevail.
My intentions are solely to just confuse you and put you to sleep, which is the hallmark of any good text book or research article.
To start off, re the loss of a friend in this forum.
This is a newly found gentleman and what it turned be, is that I am not what he thought I was, and vice versa. However in the short space of time, he opened my eyes to many things and for which I will be grateful.
But I do not have any warm feelings any more when I exchange mails, and I think, that is a requirement of any friendship – anticipation and joy through communication. Inevitable under current circumstances, but sad all the same. Maybe I can explain…
The moniker & attitude we adopt in any forum, can be completely different from our private values.
But when the private values are themselves displayed with double standard, I do not know what to do. take for example, here is one who has in private admitted to me, that his son has married out of caste, with his full support.
He takes a public stand against ic marriages, which may be ok, except in his private email to me, he goes on to suggest that I should desists from writing my own views, because it might ‘corrupt’ young minds.
Well if it was ok for his son to marry out of caste (that too with his support) but not for other’s sons? What kind of logic is that? I think one needs to be consistent in one’s values, with friends, for to claim what is good for the goose, is not good enough for the gander, confuses me. why the double standard?
I think there are others in this forum, who initially claimed to have no objection to ic marriages, but eventually took to bashing me for supposedly advocating ic marriages, meat eating and what not. At least be consistent, when between your different posts in the forum.
It gives a sense of betrayal, when thoughtful and intelligent posts, are followed by admonishments more befitting the oldest member of the drones club which pg wodehouse has graphed so wonderfully. This bipolarity of some members confuses me, as I am not sure where they stand anymore, and who is the true mccoy.
RE confusing and misleading young minds, I give the audience here much more credit than that. I think readers are mature enough to think for themselves and evaluate each issue on its merits. To think otherwise, would be insensitive and probably smacks of arrogance, imo.
it would be presumptuous of me that i have the power to drive a young mind to the proverbial kuttichevaru. maybe some examples of poorly constructed or inarticulate english? but definitely not drive anyone to action to commit blasphemy!
Take the recently closed missionary thread for instance. Post upon post was nothing but a pouring of vitriol. I am ashamed, even some members whom I respect a lot, participated in this. what next? The last few posts came close to inciting violence. This has been done before in this forum, except the vitriol was against muslims. Apart from the fact that this wrong, let me step through the traditions of our community. We tambrams have never been one for violence and hatred.
We participate in violence, and soon we will have mothers who lose their sons, sisters who lose their brothers and wives their husbands. Violence only begets more violence, and ultimately destroys the participants.
History fraught with such examples. Meanwhile those that instigate this, are comfortable old men, whose own children are in far away usa or Australia, and these instigators exhort our youth to be the cannon fodder for the next communal incident.
Now tell me, is this type of posts by honourable members, more in tune with our dharma? Is this the moral fibre that we wish to credit to our children? To hate our neighbours? Such attitudes have no place in the present multicultural multi religious India. They do more harm to the country than what these hate mongers can fathom.
To counter missionary zeal is to attack the root causes that makes these flourish. I appreciate sangom’s note on his new thread, along with happy hindu’s reply. We should be more inclusive of our dalits and other castes, if we wish to have Hinduism thrive in india.
An elitist Brahmin attitude, removed from reality, cannot call the shots and cry ‘wolf’ at the sight of the missionaries, while comfortably hiding their hypcracies under the cloak of tradition.
My own threads, I begin, with a view to academic discussion. that is all our my intentions are.
Ours is a fascinating community and I am proud to be part of the same. Because, and only because, the vast majority of us, have accepted changes and modified our behaviour and values, as per the demands of the time, and moved on.
Those vast majority are not represented here, because they are just too busy with their daily challenges. the vast majority of us are not simply survivors, but thrive positively in the face of adversity.
Take that (adversity) out, and we will all morph into a bunch of government clerks like our grandfathers. There is a lot to be said for taking challenges head on. Why is everyone so upset and call me insensitive to the poor, when all I am attempting is to raise the bar for those unfortunate among us, and perhaps motivate them to seek better than their current fortunes. Tough love is hard to give. Even harder to appreciate.
I am no radical, and I believe, that I only project a snapshot of the current trends and how we should deal with it. One opinion. To some, I may be current, but to some I am 5 years ahead. Or 15 or 25 or 50..it does not matter.
I like to think that I present the face of future and future will come with a vengeance and with far more surety than any prediction from an astrologer. We can fool ourselves to reality all we can, reality cannot be simply wished away.
Those that do not wish to look at the future, can be the equivalent of an ostrich and dig a hole in the ground and refuse to look out. That is their prerogative.
Then there are others, who are attracted to these type of posts like iron to magnet, and when the proper thing for them is to press the ‘skip’ button, they stay behind, partake of the feast, and then complain about ‘insensitivities’. I am afraid, it should be folks like me, who should do the complaining, about such members adorning behaviours unbecoming a good guest.
I think Praveen got the gist right, in his closing statement to the missionary thread ..
‘…those in India are not comfortable in questioning the foundation/basics of our religion. They are also very very sensitive and prefer to take things as is and continue in the same old way that they have been shown by the previous generations. Comparatively, they are still a good 20 years behind (minimum). They might have the money, the power and all things materialistic, but inside they need to grow up and they need to grow up before they are left out. While the people outside India are very much in tune with the current scenario, their views and opinions are, unfortunately, very much seen as a "anti-brahmin"….. Ignorning reality and continuing to live in a broken dream is like fooling yourself.’
I could not have said it any better..for we all know that time and tide wait for no man. No matter how kind Praveen may be to ‘sensitivities’, I think, in the light of the stand he has taken above, the moderator role should be more active to tone down incendiaries and vitrioles, by doing what we used to do in the good old days, ie delete the poisonous posts, and leave the thread alone. That would make more sense than closing an entire thread. Why cut the nose to spite the face? N’est pas?
At one point I too will leave the forum. But I would like it be of my own accord, and not to be hounded out, or be told how to write, what to write and when to write. That would smack of sensorship, or in this case under the guise of ‘sensitivities’, mob rule.
Thank you.
sangom
0
Dear Shri Kunjuppu,
I had told that I will not respond to your reply (to mine) but two points make me violate that promise. Excuse me for that.
Perhaps the tambram numbers will shrink so much - as you stated in another thread, since closed - that it will become an insignificant speck in the vast global populations, and hence unworthy of any consideration at all, like the Tasmanians. Secondly, as far as I have seen, the children of tambrams, particularly of the girls who go for icm, end up as NB or their father's religion, and not as tambrams. If this trend continues, the number of tambrams will show a drastic reduction in the medium term future itself.
I had told that I will not respond to your reply (to mine) but two points make me violate that promise. Excuse me for that.
There is a saying in Malayalam which means why should one pull up his dhoti right now, in order to cross a rivulet one mile further down the road? In the same manner, though future shall come (that is one sure thing in this otherwise unsure existence) and may come with a vengeance sometimes, will you not admit that tambrams have been most adaptive to changes and have been resilient also? In any case I do not think any of us has predicted exactly what type of misfortunes will befall our community when the future comes down with all its vengeance and what are the steps to be taken from now itself so as to successfully face those trials; so such things are still in the conjectural stage only. I feel in such a scenario, it may not be a folly if some people tend to adopt the ostrich attitude because, anyway, what they will see is not yet the clear picture of the future, but only conjectures.
Perhaps the tambram numbers will shrink so much - as you stated in another thread, since closed - that it will become an insignificant speck in the vast global populations, and hence unworthy of any consideration at all, like the Tasmanians. Secondly, as far as I have seen, the children of tambrams, particularly of the girls who go for icm, end up as NB or their father's religion, and not as tambrams. If this trend continues, the number of tambrams will show a drastic reduction in the medium term future itself.
Here i would like to differ. Because some one, some people, some group, do not see eye-to eye with us, it does not by that reason alone, make that opponent/s a mob, in my humble opinion. On the contrary, if you meant "tyranny of the majority", well that is what democracy also is, n'est pas?
RVR,
There are some notions about which education system is ‘best’ for the country. My own feeling is that there is no one system to fit everyone’s needs.
Start off with language. Right or wrong, English is part of our history, same as urdu or Sanskrit. At one point in time, Sanskrit too was a newcomer, and while we may romanticize it, it is not practical in our current environment to revive Sanskrit to be the language of the people. The only example of a successful revival of a ‘dead’ language, is that of Hebrew, by modern Israel, but that too was a special and very sad circumstances.
We have an ancient live and thriving language at our fingertips ie tamil. Whatever it may be said, we tambrams were the first to abandon tamil for English and embrace the so called missionary’s system.
First of all, I would not term it ‘missionary system’. It was an enlightend European system, which had its deep roots in the great learning cetres of oxford Cambridge Sorbonne Prague Heidelberg and these themselves paid ode to ancient greeks. The alternate Islamic centres of excellence of Baghdad, cairo or Alexandria, too followed the classroom method of teaching, acknowledging the difference between sciences and religion, and took care to preserve the works of ancient greeks, which were burnt to medieval roman church as heresy.
Hence, what we inherited by way of macaulay schooling, was the best of western and Islamic heritage, taught to us, in English. All of a sudden, we bypassed millenniums of dormancy of development, and vaulted into the 19th century, packaged science literature philosophy critical thinking logic rhetoric argument and above all curiosity. While there is beauty in western religious literature, hymns and philosophy, I think the modern curriculum can conveniently divest itself of the unwanted elements of western thought and selectively extract to suit our requirements.
I am a product of the madras English medium system and I am not ashamed of it. I think it gave a head on lead in many many facets of life.during my school years 50s, 60s – we had a political push from the north to subplant English with hindi. I have to thank dmk for taking the lead to push hindi out of mandatory curriculum. Guess what, now the north realizes the folly in their erstwhile stand – not just the politicians, but the mass of people. Even the poorest of the bustee dweller, prides in sending his children to English medium schools.
In tamil nadu, we have the benefit of a good English teaching heritage. Why would we throw it away for something else. it would be doing your fishermen no good, especially if they do not know the current status of what is desired, and if being ‘duped’ into an alternate schooling system. I used the word ‘duped’ deliberately, because if what you say is true, they do not know how to differentiate the goose from the gander, and you are taking the role of telling them ‘what is good for them’.
Parents, even hesitate to play around with their children’s schooling – always choosing what is best for them, not only by their own standards, but the current norms of the society where they live. In india, the norm of today is English education, sciences and above all science computer based business careers.
I have already stated before, this plan of yours, with an equal emphasis on vocational fishing, smacks of kula kalvi thittam. It is the desire of the fisherman that his son daughter should become a doctor or engineer, just like any other parent. What is so difficult to understand and appreciate that. I feel that your schools, should get good teachers, and right from the start, show the children of fisherman, what is possible. Otherwise abdul kalam will still be casting his net in the bay of Bengal.
Ofcourse, there will be dropouts. You need to define what is a salvage standard for these – they may default to their parent’s occupation, but atleast they will be educated enough to be aware of new developments in modern fishing. Ie they will turn out to be better fisherman than their fathers.
A school must inculcate a mission or ideal in life, must teach the students that no matter what your caste or creed is, the sky is the limit, and inspire him her to aspire. We cannot have one set of standards for our children, one for vathiyar’s children and another one for the fisherman. Some students bloom late. In my class, the best and most successful students, did bulk of their growth and development post high school, but were able to bank on the solid foundation provided by the school.
Which is why, I have great problem in singapore’s system of streamlining students at 8th standard. It is too early to define what a boy girl will turn out at that early age. Maybe, and I shudder to say this, that due to our own tambram heritage of learning and strong discipline, we know that our children, by default will do well, and hence we feel what works for us, should be universally applied. I beg to differ here.
Also, taking into account the politics of tamil nadu into concern, and knowing at some point, any school will come under public and media scrutiny, we should play the political card correct. I have no hesitation to saying, that tambrams are the worst players of political jugglery – I do not know whether it is arrogance, bullheadedness, ignorance or sheer refusal to look at realities and accept it. This has hurt us and our poor brethren more than anyone can imagine. A giant failure of our so called tambram leadership.
To sum up: recipe for your school: the best of English medium education and ability to inspire among the fishermen’s children to be presidents and ceos. My best wishes to you.
There are some notions about which education system is ‘best’ for the country. My own feeling is that there is no one system to fit everyone’s needs.
Start off with language. Right or wrong, English is part of our history, same as urdu or Sanskrit. At one point in time, Sanskrit too was a newcomer, and while we may romanticize it, it is not practical in our current environment to revive Sanskrit to be the language of the people. The only example of a successful revival of a ‘dead’ language, is that of Hebrew, by modern Israel, but that too was a special and very sad circumstances.
We have an ancient live and thriving language at our fingertips ie tamil. Whatever it may be said, we tambrams were the first to abandon tamil for English and embrace the so called missionary’s system.
First of all, I would not term it ‘missionary system’. It was an enlightend European system, which had its deep roots in the great learning cetres of oxford Cambridge Sorbonne Prague Heidelberg and these themselves paid ode to ancient greeks. The alternate Islamic centres of excellence of Baghdad, cairo or Alexandria, too followed the classroom method of teaching, acknowledging the difference between sciences and religion, and took care to preserve the works of ancient greeks, which were burnt to medieval roman church as heresy.
Hence, what we inherited by way of macaulay schooling, was the best of western and Islamic heritage, taught to us, in English. All of a sudden, we bypassed millenniums of dormancy of development, and vaulted into the 19th century, packaged science literature philosophy critical thinking logic rhetoric argument and above all curiosity. While there is beauty in western religious literature, hymns and philosophy, I think the modern curriculum can conveniently divest itself of the unwanted elements of western thought and selectively extract to suit our requirements.
I am a product of the madras English medium system and I am not ashamed of it. I think it gave a head on lead in many many facets of life.during my school years 50s, 60s – we had a political push from the north to subplant English with hindi. I have to thank dmk for taking the lead to push hindi out of mandatory curriculum. Guess what, now the north realizes the folly in their erstwhile stand – not just the politicians, but the mass of people. Even the poorest of the bustee dweller, prides in sending his children to English medium schools.
In tamil nadu, we have the benefit of a good English teaching heritage. Why would we throw it away for something else. it would be doing your fishermen no good, especially if they do not know the current status of what is desired, and if being ‘duped’ into an alternate schooling system. I used the word ‘duped’ deliberately, because if what you say is true, they do not know how to differentiate the goose from the gander, and you are taking the role of telling them ‘what is good for them’.
Parents, even hesitate to play around with their children’s schooling – always choosing what is best for them, not only by their own standards, but the current norms of the society where they live. In india, the norm of today is English education, sciences and above all science computer based business careers.
I have already stated before, this plan of yours, with an equal emphasis on vocational fishing, smacks of kula kalvi thittam. It is the desire of the fisherman that his son daughter should become a doctor or engineer, just like any other parent. What is so difficult to understand and appreciate that. I feel that your schools, should get good teachers, and right from the start, show the children of fisherman, what is possible. Otherwise abdul kalam will still be casting his net in the bay of Bengal.
Ofcourse, there will be dropouts. You need to define what is a salvage standard for these – they may default to their parent’s occupation, but atleast they will be educated enough to be aware of new developments in modern fishing. Ie they will turn out to be better fisherman than their fathers.
A school must inculcate a mission or ideal in life, must teach the students that no matter what your caste or creed is, the sky is the limit, and inspire him her to aspire. We cannot have one set of standards for our children, one for vathiyar’s children and another one for the fisherman. Some students bloom late. In my class, the best and most successful students, did bulk of their growth and development post high school, but were able to bank on the solid foundation provided by the school.
Which is why, I have great problem in singapore’s system of streamlining students at 8th standard. It is too early to define what a boy girl will turn out at that early age. Maybe, and I shudder to say this, that due to our own tambram heritage of learning and strong discipline, we know that our children, by default will do well, and hence we feel what works for us, should be universally applied. I beg to differ here.
Also, taking into account the politics of tamil nadu into concern, and knowing at some point, any school will come under public and media scrutiny, we should play the political card correct. I have no hesitation to saying, that tambrams are the worst players of political jugglery – I do not know whether it is arrogance, bullheadedness, ignorance or sheer refusal to look at realities and accept it. This has hurt us and our poor brethren more than anyone can imagine. A giant failure of our so called tambram leadership.
To sum up: recipe for your school: the best of English medium education and ability to inspire among the fishermen’s children to be presidents and ceos. My best wishes to you.
dear sangom, thank you for your replies. i hope you know by now, that i respect your perspectives and would feel most honoured for any response from you.
sangom, i prefer to follow the scout maxim 'be prepared'. when one knows the trend, to me, the smart thing, is not to wait till it happens, but to gather all information possible, to maximize opportunities, to mitigate losses and overall achieve a winning position.
to wait till the proverbial last minute, may sound good on paper, and even might look witty, but to me it is a lame excuse for lazyness or sheer obstinacy. i live in a cold country, and with the onset of spring, the birds start their families and at the onset of harvest, start gathering food for the winter months.
to me nature has displayed so beautifully the art and necessity of being prepared.
i have nothing personally to do with tambram numbers. it is a result because as a group, without much thinking through, every family decided for their own reasons, starting in the fifties to limit to two or one child. and has continued since then. it is just mathematics and logic our numbers will come done, because it has been proved that you need 2.1xx children just to replace yourself. to increase your tribe you need more than that. i would take no credit for this.
again i think one cannot generalize re tambram women's behaviour post oc (out of caste) marriage. i will give you 4 instances close to me and others are very similar. one iyengar girl married a sindhi guy (non veggie drinker) converted him to srivaishnavism and their daughter married iyengar recently.
a palakkad iyer girl married a jain guy, converted him to hindu so much that he despises jainism. my own cousin married a chettiar guy - all of us accepted the husband, and their son got engaged to an iyer girl just weeks ago.
here is a sad story - a lady relative, had a wayward husband who was related to me. the daughter ended up marrying a christian, and the mother at 65 is turning christian. the mother asked if any of the other relatives could take care of her, and when there was no reply she had no option to go and live with the daughter and become christian (a price of board lodging i guess). there is no use in saying that the relatives should step in. in the society of today, there is hardly time for one's own children and simply the safety net of relatives is no longer there. if one believes it is there, or should be there, one is living in a land of pipe dreams. this is reality, and the sooner one appreciates this, they can learn how to handle life changing events. the lady in this instance never went to work and did not know how to survive without depending on others. mercifully, our daughters are educated and know how to feed and feed their children.
sangom, in this forum, we are a group, who are all from the same heritage. we cannot hound somebody out becaue you dont like their views. we should accommodate, hear them out and above all, be extra kind to those who differ from us. let us give them credit. if they are different, they have a reason. in most cases the reasons have a validity and truth, that we are not aware. what a great learning experiencing we are deprving ourselves by suppressing dissent'.
RVR
0
Sri Kunjuppu Ji,
A single school where I am associated with is not going to change the education system of Tamilnadu or India.
Again within the same school, as I have already said, my views have been turned down by the school management.
At the same time, it is time to introspect within India as why one third of the Indians are illiterate and why more than one fourth of the Tamilians still don't know how to read and write.
It was late Kamaraj who made the school education free for all way back in the early sixties. He also opened schools almost at every nook and corner of Tamilnadu. But still we have more than one fourth of the people arel illiterate.
I wish the point I raised is discussed with an open mind so that the society is benefited.
I earnestly feel that the colonial mindset of the society has to change and we have to be on our own in this century.
China is developing fast and most of the Chinese doesn't know English. Japanese, Germans, French are all giving importance to their mother tongue.
Still I get engineering drawings from my German client where the language used is German.
Tamilnadu Government has started offering Tamil Medium in Engineering colleges. May be intellectuals here may be laughing at it but I earnestly feel that it is not a wrong move.
Anyway if we have to carry the entire Tamil community along with us, we have to guide them properly so that there is no failure at the end of the day.
I am not advocating Singapore system blindly. But at the same time I have noticed that there are no failures in the Singapore system of education. It was also a British Colony like India till mid sixties. But they have grown remarkably which we have to appreciate.
If we don't have to discuss further, I shall stop at this and absolutely I have no ill feelings about it.
All the best
A single school where I am associated with is not going to change the education system of Tamilnadu or India.
Again within the same school, as I have already said, my views have been turned down by the school management.
At the same time, it is time to introspect within India as why one third of the Indians are illiterate and why more than one fourth of the Tamilians still don't know how to read and write.
It was late Kamaraj who made the school education free for all way back in the early sixties. He also opened schools almost at every nook and corner of Tamilnadu. But still we have more than one fourth of the people arel illiterate.
I wish the point I raised is discussed with an open mind so that the society is benefited.
I earnestly feel that the colonial mindset of the society has to change and we have to be on our own in this century.
China is developing fast and most of the Chinese doesn't know English. Japanese, Germans, French are all giving importance to their mother tongue.
Still I get engineering drawings from my German client where the language used is German.
Tamilnadu Government has started offering Tamil Medium in Engineering colleges. May be intellectuals here may be laughing at it but I earnestly feel that it is not a wrong move.
Anyway if we have to carry the entire Tamil community along with us, we have to guide them properly so that there is no failure at the end of the day.
I am not advocating Singapore system blindly. But at the same time I have noticed that there are no failures in the Singapore system of education. It was also a British Colony like India till mid sixties. But they have grown remarkably which we have to appreciate.
If we don't have to discuss further, I shall stop at this and absolutely I have no ill feelings about it.
All the best
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sangom
0
Thank you Shri Kunjuppu.
The situation I depicted - and the proverb - do not prohibit being "preparedness". Rather the emphasis is on preparedness than being ready and prepared too early - and waiting for the envisaged change to happen. what if future likes to tease and present a different scenario? So, I feel that while one should know which way the winds are blowing and continue to be sensitive to their changes, it may not be necessary to fix upon one particular course of action depending upon a predetermined future. After all the future we are talking about is not as definite as the change of seasons.
Though in future women may also become self-sufficient and provide for their old age, we may not be able to say that exceptions will not be there. Similarly, we cannot also be hopeful that the children of icms will be tambrams irrespective of whom they marry; it is their attitudes which will count.
Shri Kunjuppu, i do not understand how you feel that you are being hounded out. Just as you want others to accommodate, hear you out, and above all, be extra kind to you because you differ from others, do these same rules not apply to you as well? Why can you not show the same forbearance towards those who criticise you? If you consider that all the above is to be one way only, I do not know what the conclusions can be?
Secondly, you have not probably realized that a "mob" denotes a disorderly crowd of people, a loose affiliation of gangsters in charge of organized criminal activities, an association of criminals. It was rather uncharitable to label the entire forum in this fashion (as mob rule)even if the whole forum registers its dissent to your views (here it is only a few members). Simply objecting to your views/posts will not ipso facto make the members or the forum a mob IMO.
Sangom,
I think the time has come to talk about nacchinarkiniyan.
He was a giant in this forum. From his posts, I would put him among the elders in age, and much more a sage in wisdom. He was a gentle human, with immense knowledge and unbelievable humility and curiosity.
I was just new to the forum, and I observed that a certain group of people were together targeting their posts at him with a venom and vile, that finally he gave up and left. i kept quiet. i am ashamed of it every day.
It is a sum total loss to the forum. The good people in the forum, kept quiet.
I will quote martin niemoller again here.
They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Many thread such as ic marriages, have had long lives and till the past few weeks, there was disagreements but no venom.
recently we started seeing a new line of attack here, which might not be evident, but I can smell it only too clearly. It is through private messages and public notes, to silence other viewpoints to anything that they view as ‘anti brahmin’. Once this is allowed, there is no end, but for the arbitrary decision of a group of people who have taken certain laws to their own hands.
The same went for my thread on declining brahmin numbers. Some people took it personal which they had no business, and on top of that, behaved in a manner that it was closed. That hurts.
For the brief period when I was a moderator, and thoroughly unfit for that rolethe norm was to warn the member twice, and on the third count he was out. Maybe I was too zealous when in my role, but I think that worked better than outright closing of the thread. The culprits are not even pulled up. What type of moderating is this?
On a personal note, I am surprised, that you, who are so articulate, and fair and of views in sync with the changing world, going out of your way, to accommodate these folks, and asking forum members me included, not to speak out certain subjects, because it 'hurts feelings'.
At no time, I use epithets and personal attacks. I address only the topic, and on occasion recently when I inadvertently referred to hoover, you were kind enough to point it out to me, although I read the tone as an ultimatum to your participation here. That tone was noted and I was upset, that you pick on me, instead of those others and warn them of conduct unbecoming of a member here.
This is what I meant by mob rule. To me it is beyond the norms of civilized behaviour, and much more so unbecoming in a fraternity this forum is supposed to represent. they are not a majority here btw.
I have also vowed that to my mite, that we will never lose another member because someone does not like him.
Another nacchinarkiniyan must not be allowed to happen. To not like a member’s views is ok, but to attempt to silence him, to me, indicates an absence of charity. After all does not charity begin at home… and I consider this a home, of sorts, to me.
this world is made up of billions of voices. every tambram has his her own views on things. just because someone does not like someone else's views, that does not make it invalid or 'anti brahmin'. we should be open to dissent and particularly be kind to dissent, for the world has too many 'yes' men. we don't need to add to such crowd from the folks here.
Hope this explains…thank you.
I think the time has come to talk about nacchinarkiniyan.
He was a giant in this forum. From his posts, I would put him among the elders in age, and much more a sage in wisdom. He was a gentle human, with immense knowledge and unbelievable humility and curiosity.
I was just new to the forum, and I observed that a certain group of people were together targeting their posts at him with a venom and vile, that finally he gave up and left. i kept quiet. i am ashamed of it every day.
It is a sum total loss to the forum. The good people in the forum, kept quiet.
I will quote martin niemoller again here.
They came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.
Then they came for me and by that time no one was left to speak up.
Many thread such as ic marriages, have had long lives and till the past few weeks, there was disagreements but no venom.
recently we started seeing a new line of attack here, which might not be evident, but I can smell it only too clearly. It is through private messages and public notes, to silence other viewpoints to anything that they view as ‘anti brahmin’. Once this is allowed, there is no end, but for the arbitrary decision of a group of people who have taken certain laws to their own hands.
The same went for my thread on declining brahmin numbers. Some people took it personal which they had no business, and on top of that, behaved in a manner that it was closed. That hurts.
For the brief period when I was a moderator, and thoroughly unfit for that rolethe norm was to warn the member twice, and on the third count he was out. Maybe I was too zealous when in my role, but I think that worked better than outright closing of the thread. The culprits are not even pulled up. What type of moderating is this?
On a personal note, I am surprised, that you, who are so articulate, and fair and of views in sync with the changing world, going out of your way, to accommodate these folks, and asking forum members me included, not to speak out certain subjects, because it 'hurts feelings'.
At no time, I use epithets and personal attacks. I address only the topic, and on occasion recently when I inadvertently referred to hoover, you were kind enough to point it out to me, although I read the tone as an ultimatum to your participation here. That tone was noted and I was upset, that you pick on me, instead of those others and warn them of conduct unbecoming of a member here.
This is what I meant by mob rule. To me it is beyond the norms of civilized behaviour, and much more so unbecoming in a fraternity this forum is supposed to represent. they are not a majority here btw.
I have also vowed that to my mite, that we will never lose another member because someone does not like him.
Another nacchinarkiniyan must not be allowed to happen. To not like a member’s views is ok, but to attempt to silence him, to me, indicates an absence of charity. After all does not charity begin at home… and I consider this a home, of sorts, to me.
this world is made up of billions of voices. every tambram has his her own views on things. just because someone does not like someone else's views, that does not make it invalid or 'anti brahmin'. we should be open to dissent and particularly be kind to dissent, for the world has too many 'yes' men. we don't need to add to such crowd from the folks here.
Hope this explains…thank you.
Sri. Kunjuppu sir,
Greetings. I refer to your post in #42 in this thread.
I agree with most of the things written in that post. (I do not much about Sri. Nachinarkkiniyan though..). Sri.Sangom strikes a very nice balance in this form. Sri. Nara, Sow. Happy Hindu and yourself are seen as a team in expressing views not agreeable to most members here. Most of my views are not accepted; but, I am not considered as part of the above mentioned team. Sri. Sangom is seen as the balance in between. He seems to understand where the above said team comes from; understands the majority view since he lives in India; understands the culture, habits and history of all Indians.
I personally do not see Sri. Sangom 'supporting' anyone.
Cheers!
Greetings. I refer to your post in #42 in this thread.
I agree with most of the things written in that post. (I do not much about Sri. Nachinarkkiniyan though..). Sri.Sangom strikes a very nice balance in this form. Sri. Nara, Sow. Happy Hindu and yourself are seen as a team in expressing views not agreeable to most members here. Most of my views are not accepted; but, I am not considered as part of the above mentioned team. Sri. Sangom is seen as the balance in between. He seems to understand where the above said team comes from; understands the majority view since he lives in India; understands the culture, habits and history of all Indians.
I personally do not see Sri. Sangom 'supporting' anyone.
Cheers!
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sangom
0
Dear Shri Raghy,
Thank you very much for understanding my views and supporting me.
I have observed that among some members there is a tendency to persist with their particular views on a topic as though this is like the ancient "debates" on vedanta and one Acharya had to establish his line of thinking by making the opponent to accept defeat. Here the repetition of one's view point sometimes becomes ad nauseum till that person has the last word. But I think the concerned members are unable to visualize this.
Secondly, the term "Tamil Brahmin" brings to mind predominantly those brahmins living in TN; others like me - in Kerala - claim and are accepted as Tamil Brahmin. This tambram group has been able to adjust to the various social and technological changes which came about through the past many centuries, perhaps by veering away from many of the injunctions prescribed for a brahmana by our revered scriptures or perhaps by shrewd adaptations of their customs. Hence, in my view, the tambrams have proved themselves to be highly adaptive to all sorts of changes and are also also equally resilient in general.
Each one of us may have a set of solutions for the upliftment of those tambrams who have not been able to come to/above the median. But none of us can claim to be a "know-all" and say that ours is a sort of "cure-all".
I wish all of us convince ourselves that we do not have prophetic abilities to tell a community as a whole what is good for their future, and that too repeatedly.
Many of us would have heard the Tenali Rama story of the king and his barber, which goes by the name of பொன்னுருண்டை (gold globule) story. Like the king's barber in that story, we should not tend to judge the entire world by what we are or what we have been able to save or achieve.
Sri. Sangom Sir,
Greetings. I don't think you ever needed anybody's support, least of all support from a peson like me! This forum is fortunate to attract members like yourself. During my youth years I had one friend (his name was Prabhakaran). He used to say, "one should read from Ambulimama (childen's monthly in Tamizh - Chanda mama in Hindi & English) to Alistair Maclean! He was a walking encyclopaedia in most subjects. He was 15 when I met him; he left India in his very early 20s to USA as a scientist. When I read your posts, you remind me of him.
In my opinion, It is a previlege for this forum members to read your posts. Like I said before, you are a great bridge between the new ternd and the orthodoxy. You have something for everyone. Thank you.
Cheers!
Greetings. I don't think you ever needed anybody's support, least of all support from a peson like me! This forum is fortunate to attract members like yourself. During my youth years I had one friend (his name was Prabhakaran). He used to say, "one should read from Ambulimama (childen's monthly in Tamizh - Chanda mama in Hindi & English) to Alistair Maclean! He was a walking encyclopaedia in most subjects. He was 15 when I met him; he left India in his very early 20s to USA as a scientist. When I read your posts, you remind me of him.
In my opinion, It is a previlege for this forum members to read your posts. Like I said before, you are a great bridge between the new ternd and the orthodoxy. You have something for everyone. Thank you.
Cheers!
i agree 100%. sangom is another gift to us, and thank God for that.
i do say things sometimes vehemently. i hope i do not to sound sermonising, though i have been told that i tend to do that too. what to do?
well does it not take all types to make this world? otherwise it would be boring, n'est pas?
thank you sangom, raghy. (saying this as humbly as i could here... could not find any icons to express it)
Hi
I really do not understand about what's wrong about being prepared for the future!!
If there is consistent robbery happening in your suburb/nieghbourhood, would you not think about double protecting your home?
Would women not be encourged to have regular mammograms to have breast cancer in check?
Would people not write wills well in time than think in denial that they will not die any time soon?
In fact, people are even encouraged to fill out organ donation form at any time of their life! Does it mean that the government expects them to die any time soon!!
I have long thought about this but the reason I haven't posted it is that it points out all the negative senarios!!
OK! Would not people plan about birthday parties or plan for months (if not years) about the wedding of their children???
What is so wrong in being prepared for what is inevitabilly happening in our community in India????????
I really do not understand about what's wrong about being prepared for the future!!
If there is consistent robbery happening in your suburb/nieghbourhood, would you not think about double protecting your home?
Would women not be encourged to have regular mammograms to have breast cancer in check?
Would people not write wills well in time than think in denial that they will not die any time soon?
In fact, people are even encouraged to fill out organ donation form at any time of their life! Does it mean that the government expects them to die any time soon!!
I have long thought about this but the reason I haven't posted it is that it points out all the negative senarios!!
OK! Would not people plan about birthday parties or plan for months (if not years) about the wedding of their children???
What is so wrong in being prepared for what is inevitabilly happening in our community in India????????
suicide bombings...lots of them
Suicide bomber kills 50 in Pakistani mosque - Yahoo! News
this is a foot note in today's news. every day we have the same footnote.. anywhere from 50 - 200 people killed by suicide bombers.
i guess we have to thank the tamil tigers for this deadly legacy.
i don't know how anyone can stop this infection. the greatest value we have is our life, and if on our own accord we freely give it away, what else is there to motivate anyone to life?
somehow, in this infant century, we have had more people killed by suicide bombs than probably all of the previous milleniums. it is so easy to kill. one only has to google to learn how to build a time bomb, so i wonder why bother even suicide.
personally, i think, the best way to avoid such, is to give every community a stake for even the most ardent suicide bomber will hesitate before blowing up his mother and father.
Suicide bomber kills 50 in Pakistani mosque - Yahoo! News
this is a foot note in today's news. every day we have the same footnote.. anywhere from 50 - 200 people killed by suicide bombers.
i guess we have to thank the tamil tigers for this deadly legacy.
i don't know how anyone can stop this infection. the greatest value we have is our life, and if on our own accord we freely give it away, what else is there to motivate anyone to life?
somehow, in this infant century, we have had more people killed by suicide bombs than probably all of the previous milleniums. it is so easy to kill. one only has to google to learn how to build a time bomb, so i wonder why bother even suicide.
personally, i think, the best way to avoid such, is to give every community a stake for even the most ardent suicide bomber will hesitate before blowing up his mother and father.
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