Status of brahmins in Global Scenario - reg.

[renuka]

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When they ask you for e.g. an arranged marriage, it will help them to have an identity, if nothing than to feel better about themselves than just thinking of themselves as "mixed-breed Mutt Indian"....
Again, down to personal choice. Doing it, or not doing it, both have some pros and cons.

Dear sir,

I am a mixed breed types with 2 types of South Indian blood in me and 2 types of North Indian blood in me.

Believe me the "mix breed mutt" feeling does not come!LOL

You know I really like the "Mutt" word cos Mutts are actually quite faithful types.

Ok mixed breed Indians feel very Indian actually.

Further more Mixed breed Indians are also kind of good looking and intelligent.
Lots of mix breeds actually score very high in exams cos you see when there is a bigger pool of genes and less in breeding looks and intelligence improve.

Have you seen Ajit Kumar(TB and Sindhi mixed).
Have you seen Shruti Hassan(TB and and some type of North Indian mix)
Have you see John Abraham(Keralite and Parsi mix)...the list can go on and on.
Can't wait for Aishwarya Rai and Abhisheks daughter to grow up(surely she will be a killer looker)

Mix breed (Hindus) gives you a more Hindu outlook an identify ourselves as Hindus more than anything else.

Frankly speaking there is no real different feeling from anyone else.

Humans overall have the feeling of I am doer ship the "I" feeling in us.

It is the same for everyone.

I may not feel any special affinity for any one community and get along well with everyone.


Mix breeds do have an identity like anyone else and that identity is called Jeevatma.

 

[biswa]

Hiding behind philosophy is not good. By the same logic Chinese can take Arunachal and PAk Kashmir. After all Chinese and Pak atmas are also similar.

This talk of Chinese and Pak atmas is utter nonsense. Also do try to be a bit civil in your replies. If you do not expect philosophical conversations after coming to the TamilBrahmins forum, you have come to the wrong place. Nobody is hiding behind anything. On the other hand, we are all hiding behind something.

 

[biswa]

Well said Renuka. Without commenting about ICM (inter-caste marriage for new members), it is a well known fact that hybridization of different varieties yields a lot of desirable characteristics such as physical appearance, hardiness, intelligence, resilience etc. All the grains and vegetables we eat (or even meat for meat-eaters) are nowadays facts. "Hybrid vigour" is a scientifically established fact.

Dear sir,

I am a mixed breed types with 2 types of South Indian blood in me and 2 types of North Indian blood in me.

Believe me the "mix breed mutt" feeling does not come!LOL

You know I really like the "Mutt" word cos Mutts are actually quite faithful types.

Ok mixed breed Indians feel very Indian actually.

Further more Mixed breed Indians are also kind of good looking and intelligent.
Lots of mix breeds actually score very high in exams cos you see when there is a bigger pool of genes and less in breeding looks and intelligence improve.

Have you seen Ajit Kumar(TB and Sindhi mixed).
Have you seen Shruti Hassan(TB and and some type of North Indian mix)
Have you see John Abraham(Keralite and Parsi mix)...the list can go on and on.
Can't wait for Aishwarya Rai and Abhisheks daughter to grow up(surely she will be a killer looker)

Mix breed (Hindus) gives you a more Hindu outlook an identify ourselves as Hindus more than anything else.

Frankly speaking there is no real different feeling from anyone else.

Humans overall have the feeling of I am doer ship the "I" feeling in us.

It is the same for everyone.

I may not feel any special affinity for any one community and get along well with everyone.


Mix breeds do have an identity like anyone else and that identity is called Jeevatma.

 

[biswa]

Besides, it is not a good idea to insult "Mutts" because they often end up ruling the world. Look no further than Barack Obama. No identity crisis for the President of USA!

 

[XLR8R]

Whoa XLR8R, you have clearly ruffled some feathers by refering to mixed caste/ethnic Indians as "mutts". I grant you that it is not the most PC of words to use.

I know, but I'm one of these myself.....why would I refer to this term in a derogatory way?
The fact is this is a deeply personal choice, but at some level one has to also see the culture doesn't go away because we keep getting assimiliated into a larger pool. For the diversity is a strength; not a weakness.

@renuka: I fully understand your POV; like I said I am from one of these families. If you saw my picture today you'd have to look very close to identify me as an Iyer boy....

Indeed fresh cultural and genetic influx brings a lot of good things. At the same time a balance is needed to ensure nobody goes away for good. In order to preserve and enhance the diversity, the diversity itself needs to be maintained! If everyone become just one culture, it might be peaceful and good, but nobody can deny that a lot of good (as well as bad) of different cultures would be lost forever.

BTW if you will notice some of the most intelligent, good-looking people across the world are mixed breed

But something that is important to note is this: We, the educated class, know to rise above petty differences. As Brahmins in particular we have always placed an emphasis on education of some sort or the other. However, the average Indian with a rudimentary education at best does not have this magnanimous thinking because he or she has never been exposed to the true diversity and beauty of the nation. Thus, they often have a "my caste/creed/religion/region should shine and dominate" mentality. It will take many generations to completely get rid of such thinking. But it is the dominant thought among the average Indian. Thus, the concepts of "Jeevatma" and all are good, but unfortunately you cannot rely on it unless the other man believes in it as well.

 

[XLR8R]

Mutt, is just not a very polite term. But on the other hand, everybody is a "mutt". Unless you can provide some DNA evidence that you are pure. But then "pure" what?

Nobody is pure, no debating that. The MUTT term was not used offensively, it wouldn't be right, I'm (in theory at least) one of those myself. I'm just saying that there are cases where people might feel that way, even if it hasn't happened in general.

As for caste vs. culture, know that regional influences are often independent from "core" culture defined by religious values.

But this is a caste forum. What is the intention of questioning and provoking? Why keep debating on it? Hasn't it been done to death? If caste is a major issue for you, why are you even posting in this forum. I don't understand. Is it to antagonise brahmins (tamil)? Ok, yes some people want to preserve labels. So be it. If we don't want to do that, its our prerogative. We don't need to nor force our kids to. But if others wish to, I believe they have a right to their choices without harassment. I support intercaste marriage if 2 people want to marry.

I also support preserving "labels" as you wish to call them. If they aren't doing any harm to us, why not just let people make their own choice(s).

Well said

 

[XLR8R]

I personally would like to see some statistics on the number of Tamil Brahmins who are living below the poverty line or just scraping through, and also how many get medical seats etc. Because there are some people who keep thinking all Tamil Brahmins are doctors, wealthy technopreneurs, CEOs etc. They see only what they want to see.

Forget Tamil Brahmins, Brahmins in general deserve these statistics. Let me tell you the topper in my class at college is a UP Brahmin whose father is a lowly taxi driver. He struggles to pay fees every year and doesn't even have 1000 rupees to pay for an entrance exam for postgraduation. He lives in a chawl with only 4 hours a day of electricity and still does this amazing feat of topping semester after semester. I have seen many such UP and Bihar brahmins doing very well despite crippling poverty. They don't get any economic sanctions from the government whatsoever, and still manage to the best of their extent to come up.

Most Brahmins, contrary to popular beliefs are NOT rich. They are struggling in the lower middle class or in poor families.

 

[prasad1]

But this is a caste forum. What is the intention of questioning and provoking? Why keep debating on it? Hasn't it been done to death? If caste is a major issue for you, why are you even posting in this forum. I don't understand. Is it to antagonise brahmins (tamil)? Ok, yes some people want to preserve labels. So be it. If we don't want to do that, its our prerogative. We don't need to nor force our kids to. But if others wish to, I believe they have a right to their choices without harassment. I support intercaste marriage if 2 people want to marry.

I also support preserving "labels" as you wish to call them. If they aren't doing any harm to us, why not just let people make their own choice(s).

I think this position should be acceptable to all.
But like Mr. Praveen has said number of times that this forum is open to all, so no one should claim superiority because of the "labels". Every one has the option of claiming their personal achievements, if they want to do it.

 

[biswa]

The "issue" of ICM has been debated in this forum since its very beginning. This is not the first thread bringing it up nor will it be the last. And of course people have different opinions on such a juicy topic, otherwise things will become rather boring.

 

[renuka]

@renuka: I fully understand your POV; like I said I am from one of these families. If you saw my picture today you'd have to look very close to identify me as an Iyer boy....

Do not get me wrong I was not feeling offended with the Mutt word.I call myself a hybrid too.

Frankly speaking nowadays its very hard to even identify anyone by just looking at the their face.


I feel these days every caste and creed places emphasis on education.Even people who have their own businesses send their kids for MBA so that they would run the business more efficiently.

Gone are those days where people just passed on businesses and neglected studies.

As humans we will always find a way to divide ourselves cos duality is the norm of life.

Ok among the own caste itself there is so much petty differences like " I am rich..he is poor"
"My son is a doctor..his son is not a doctor".."I have a US mappillai for my daughter..his daughter married a local party"

Differences can go on...you see we humans we always love to find fault with something or the other.

When we are fed up of fighting with others and peace prevails we will eventually fight with ourselves!LOL

 

[Raju1949]

Calling some thing utter nonsense is not civil. Heal thyself first. You have not understood the context of my statement. pl pay more attention. Why Chinese can not have atmas I can not understand. Philosophy has its place. In fact the person who gave the particular post did not misundestand.

 

[sarang]

"But like Mr. Praveen has said number of times that this forum is open to all, so no one should claim superiority because of the "labels"."

I do not understand the logic or sense of compounding of two different sentences/ ideas. Yes, the forum is open to all, that means all with rudimentary computer skills, net exposure and english read/write exposure can participate actively or passively in forum activities, till his/ her behaviour crosses decency limits.

What is wrong in assuming oneself to be superior; all personality and mind development experts, mental health consultants drive the point - you are great, you can do it. Are we not told by the scriptures - aham brahmasmi - one can't feel a higher degree of superiority. Of course, who have a complex, do not want to be superior, and want everyone to get used to thinking - you are inferior.

A positive approach is, everyone, every community must be made to think that they are superior.

Every one has the option of claiming their personal achievements, if they want to do it.

 

[renuka]

What is wrong in assuming oneself to be superior; all personality and mind development experts, mental health consultants drive the point - you are great, you can do it. Are we not told by the scriptures - aham brahmasmi - one can't feel a higher degree of superiority. Of course, who have a complex, do not want to be superior, and want everyone to get used to thinking - you are inferior.

A positive approach is, everyone, every community must be made to think that they are superior.

Every one has the option of claiming their personal achievements, if they want to do it.

Dear sir,

Having "Healthy Pride" within limits( for example a sense of confidence and a positive outlook) is fine.. I guess what no one wants is Prejudice..that's all.

Aham Brahmaasmi is sans Ahankara.

In all other situations in life the Ahankara as in "I am the doer ship feeling " still remains.

Sometimes a Superiority Complex is just an Inferiority Complex turned inside out.

 

[sarang]

If you take bhagavd gita as a whole, it supports varnasrama dharma, protection and perpetuation of jati and kula traditions, women's responsibilities, svadharma, need to fight adharma, worship of narayana, rituals = well everything.

Frankly speaking no one faces extinction..we all come to this world just to work out our Karma..that's all.
We can not preserve bodily identity or lineage forever..everything is subject to change.
I am sure most of our DNA would be a cocktail of different communities all along since our caveman ancestor walked this world.
I am sure some cavemen visited other caves too and off springs were born.

I am sure many will not agree with me especially when I have quoted the BG verse below.

 

[renuka]

If you take bhagavd gita as a whole, it supports varnasrama dharma, protection and perpetuation of jati and kula traditions, women's responsibilities, svadharma, need to fight adharma, worship of narayana, rituals = well everything.

Yes you are right... but it has to be done as a duty..and not as an obsession and with the fear of extinction..


After all its :

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshu kada cana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani

 

[sarang]

"Caste systems are not be used as a means of discrimination but rather as a means of identification."

This was the situation in the past; sooner we clear the cobwebs and the slimy coat thrust on our psyche and understand the past, the better for our future generations and culture.

Hats off to you.

To a significant extent, caste is culture. Caste systems are not be used as a means of discrimination but rather as a means of identification. Take for example Mexico (again) with it's Mestizo, American Indian, Castizo, Criollo and Euro populations, there is no discrimination but they are proud of their respective identities. Why preserve this classification? Because when a young person wants to know more, he should know what is his origin, what was the culture and society of his ancestors, and how they came to where he is now. Let's call it, a chapter in a history book. The history should never be lost to someone new, that's why it's important to preserve it.

As for the Sachin Tendulkar example, his Brahmin identity is the chapter of history, while his prowess as a cricketer is his current accomplishment. If there was no past, there is no present. Thus, I believe both are important!

 

[sarang]

So you agree it must be done. That is an improvement.

Yes you are right... but it has to be done as a duty..and not as an obsession and with the fear of extinction..


After all its :

Karmanye Vadhikaraste, Ma phaleshu kada cana,
Ma Karma Phala Hetur Bhurmatey Sangostva Akarmani

 

[guruvayurappan]

dear prasad !
as you said the statics will do nothing .A learned and well settled brahmin will not talk about past glory .He will take values from the past and try to follow it within his reach and feasibility .he will try to help the needy on merits and will not be carried away by the caste sentiments.he knows that all help to be done without any publicity.only those who wants publicity will be boasting of their deeds.by publicity ,the help will not reach really needy .
he knows how to select his profession and select the most suited job for his likes and purpose
guruvayurappan

 

[renuka]

So you agree it must be done. That is an improvement.

Dear Sarang ji,


I spend a good one hour before bed time reading Rig Veda Samhita daily.

I have never been against maintaining Dharma of any form ever.

But what ever it is...it has to be well documented Dharma and not some outdated man made stuff.

That's why I always refer to Geeta cos its the best source of advise for anyone and in any Yuga.

So I wonder why you are saying "That is an improvement"

 

[guruvayurappan]

post 72 #
you expect 3% for top rank job.but even in lower ranks ,even if you opt for irrespective of your qualification,it is a distant dream .we are not having any option(if it is available ).
guruvayurappan

 

[sarang]

For me, making you agree.

Dear Sarang ji,


I spend a good one hour before bed time reading Rig Veda Samhita daily.

I have never been against maintaining Dharma of any form ever.

But what ever it is...it has to be well documented Dharma and not some outdated man made stuff.

That's why I always refer to Geeta cos its the best source of advise for anyone and in any Yuga.

So I wonder why you are saying "That is an improvement"

 

[renuka]

for me, making you agree.

lol!

 

[renuka]

If you take bhagavd gita as a whole, it supports varnasrama dharma, protection and perpetuation of jati and kula traditions, women's responsibilities, svadharma, need to fight adharma, worship of narayana, rituals = well everything.

Dear Sarang ji,

Since you said I agreed with you on this...I would like to explain that the definition of

Varnaashrama, Kula,Jati, Responsibilities of men and women ,rituals etc might differ from person to person and his/her perception.

Ok for some individuals Varnaashrama might mean Birth Based Caste..for me I take it to mean one's Gunas and Guna based profession and professional duties.

Also Varnaashrama includes various stages of life right up to Sanyasin.

Kula is just a racial clan..just like how we have various races in the world.

In fact in Mahabharat, Gandhari was from the Kingdom of present day Kandahar(Afghanistan).

Even in Ramayan Kaikeyi was a Persian.

So marriages from different Kula Kingdoms had taken place.

In Puranas too there has been instances of Pratiloma marriages too.

Karna's foster mother was a Brahmin and his foster father was from Charioteer caste.
Karna used his foster mother's caste and said he was a Brahmin to become the student of Parashurama.


Jati is not actually mentioned in the Geeta.
We only hear Varna.


Svadharma is just carrying out our duties best suited for our nature and temperament.

Responsibilities of men and women form the backbone of society...every society practices this.
Then again this is subject to time place and person.
Previously women never worked outside their home but now it is acceptable by society.

Rituals is optional and not mandatory cos Lord Krishna does advise Arjuna to rise above the Flowery Words of the Vedas that promise the Higher Heavens through Rituals.

We also have to remember that the 1st chapter has all the talk on Family Tradition,Lineage,Varnasanskar etc which was spoken by Arjuna.

Lord Krishna does not comment on what he says but starts off the next line as :

sri-bhagavan uvaca
kutas tva kasmalam idam
visame samupasthitam
anarya-justam asvargyam
akirti-karam arjuna


The Supreme Person [Bhagavan] said: My dear Arjuna, how have these impurities come upon you? They are not at all befitting a man who knows the progressive values of life. They do not lead to higher planets, but to infamy.

It sounded as if Krishna was just concerned that Arjuna was finding excuses not to fight.

So since Lord Krishna did not comment anything on Arjuna's reasons..so we for sure can not 100% know if Krishna agreed or disagreed with Arjuna.
Becos in Geeta there is no Chapter fully dedicated to Traditions which was spoken by Lord Krishna.
Lord Krishna was stressing almost everything at an Atmic level starting right from Karma Yoga.

So since options are open we can take it as just practice the Satyam Vada and Dharmam Cara which is best known to us.

 

[prasad1]

In Chapter 1 of Gita:
Arjuna, the mighty warrior, sees his intimate relatives, teachers and friends in both armies ready to fight and sacrifice their lives. Overcome by grief and pity, Arjuna fails in strength, his mind becomes bewildered, and he gives up his determination to fight.

That is the lament of Arjuna.
A patient comes to a psychiatrist and pours his heart out. The trained psychiatrist listens to the patients and lets him vent his feelings. It does not mean that psychiatrist agrees with everything his patient says in that therapy session. The Doctor is not going to confront the patient, but try to suggest the proper way of seeing things. Krishna was the ultimate psychiatrist. He did not believe everything Arjuna said, and at the end of 18 chapter, Arjuna was ready to do the battle.

Instead of getting caught up with the stage props, we should be listening to the message of Gita.

 

[nannilam_balasubramanian]

Brahmins have become a minority community in Tamil Nadu. In fact, the
Brahmins in India are also need to be covered in the reservation fold and they are no
more forward community from the economic point of view.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur