Racism in the U.S.

[KRS]

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Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

Thank you for the welcome.

When we talk about 'equality' among humans, we are talking about an equal chance to go after 'happiness' as one may define it without any external limitations put on that effort. However, meritocracy always existed and will exit. At one time in our country it was the ability to learn and expound on the Vedas. Today in USA, it is excelling in one's chosen field and in the process, may be making a mark on the society and/or making a good living. Meritocracy is based on one's internal make up, where this 'non equality' compared to someone else is rewarded, given the same hard work. Brilliance by talent created in any field of discipline is God given, can not be just acquired by mere hard work.

Caste system started with this premise and you are right - when it was made as a birth right, it went from meritocracy to a 'perceived inequality among men'. I stand corrected.

Regarding HC, he has already added to the GOP discussions. However, my personal opinion (as an independent) is that he is not prepared to be a President. Sort of a one trick pony.

Regards,
KRS

"Racism is one dimensional. Casteism is multi dimensional. Racism can be easily dealt with as against morality based on human equality. Casteism can not be that easily dealt with because it is based on human inequality to begin with."-KRS post 74.

Dear KRS:

(Welcome back - we all missed you for the past several months - I used to look for your posts).

Very well said with one modification at least, "Casteism can't be that easily dealt with because it based on the perceived human inequality to begin with".

As dear Raghy pointed out, both Racism and Casteism are the same in the sense that both discriminated the victims, and in victims point of view, they are the SAME...

Thus, I believe, comparing the progress made in the US on Racism with that of the progress made in India on Casteism is appropriate.

All this aside, please talk about Herman Cain: I believe he has "suspended" his campaign too prematurely.. If he believes he is innocent of sexual harassment and other charges, he should struggle along towards the Iowa caucus and see how the nominating people judge him on this and other issues..

Although I don't like his policies like 999, I like him in the Presidential Nomination Race as a Black man from Georgia, who has come up in life against all odds.

What say you?

Regards

Y

 

[prasad1]

i have one simple thing longing in my mind for quite long time about that.

let me go by you, that caste system started roughly 5000 years ago, be it aptitude based or birth based, lets not go deep in to it.

considering the points expressed by nara, racism exists in u.s too, but its diminishing or diminished drastically out there. majority see it as bad. no hollywood movie goes without black participation, no benneton advt goes without a black kid, and in the recent few years i have seen the TV cartoon comes with a mix of black, white and yellow. almond eyes are getting glorified. here we are talking about a 300 years history of american racism .

comparing with india, its 4500 years old history, where man in america must have been in tree tops or caves. we had great civilizations. yet,why with such a long time span, we couldnt come out of this discrimination..... comparatively, even now?

The framers of Indian constitution tried and to a great extent achieved it. But this reverse discrimination and quota system enshrined it again. These should be no birth based divisional. But current ruling majority would not give it up as it is their vote base.

 

[prasad1]

Regarding HC, he has already added to the GOP discussions. However, my personal opinion (as an independent) is that he is not prepared to be a President. Sort of a one trick pony.

Regards,
KRS

HC wanted to promote himself, and the tea party found him attractive as an outsider. He never created an organization to fight for the nominations, he was the flavor of the month. The establishment would have never voted for him. The women who came out were the tip of the Iceberg. He is still raising funds and spending it, as it is legal as long as he is still a candidate.

 

[Yamaka]

Y, is this a kind of racism as well?

Dear N:

I don't think so, although my wife believes that there is some element of it (because all the three women accusers are White).

His public statements say that he is innocent.. then, I don't know why he suspended his campaign: perhaps, that's what Koch Brothers - his Sponsors - wanted him to do now!

Wait & watch

Cheers.

 

[Yamaka]

i have one simple thing longing in my mind for quite long time about that.

let me go by you, that caste system started roughly 5000 years ago, be it aptitude based or birth based, lets not go deep in to it.

considering the points expressed by nara, racism exists in u.s too, but its diminishing or diminished drastically out there. majority see it as bad. no hollywood movie goes without black participation, no benneton advt goes without a black kid, and in the recent few years i have seen the TV cartoon comes with a mix of black, white and yellow. almond eyes are getting glorified. here we are talking about a 300 years history of american racism .

comparing with india, its 4500 years old history, where man in america must have been in tree tops or caves. we had great civilizations. yet,why with such a long time span, we couldnt come out of this discrimination..... comparatively, even now?

Hello Shiv:

Your question is the most fundamental question that should knock the Indian psyche every minute of everyday, IMO!

My quick answer is the lack of liberal education nationwide... and even today most people in my village viscerally believe "Kadavul Nameley Ippudithan Padachan...Caste is made by God Almighty".

In the US, as others pointed out masterly, Racism was alive and well nearly 100 years AFTER the Civil War when Slavery was the prime issue of contention. Jim Crow Laws sustained Racism in the South till 1960s.

Malcolm X used to tell very provocatively, "People must sacrifice to bring major changes in the Society"... which is what finally happened: Dr. King, John & Robert Kennedy were assassinated (presumably for their Vision of the New Society).

And, the whole American psyche changed towards positive transformation as far as Racism was concerned.

Such sea-change did not occur in India, so far...

So, I conclude that the abiding faith in God and lack of widespread liberal education are the main reasons why India maintains the Status Quo, largely as far as the Caste discrimination is concerned.

My two-cents!

Cheers.

 

[KRS]

A very good question, Sri ShivKC Ji. I also have thought about the same. I will give my thoughts on this and I will ask others who have thought about this to post on this also.

One should realize how the western society has evolved since the time of Renaissance. Slowly over the past centuries, individualism came in to being the center piece of culture, spurred by industrialization, democratic systems, affluence and above all an egalitarian Christian religion (especially after Martin Luther). If one reads the American Constitution, it clearly enshrines individualism.

Where as in India, over centuries, the concept was that the local community (a village) was structured to be self sufficient, with the suppression of individualism for the protection of the community welfare. Dharma rules were designed to promote the community interests. It was no accident that the people we call 'untouchables' came to be as a group that was banned from the village for their individualistic acts, violating the societal rules.

Now this worked continuously through centuries and it was no accident that this system has started to break up only after the British came to India, bringing the industrialization with them with the attendant mobility and migration to the 'cities'. Even the Mogul rule could not make in roads to break up the caste system.

As I have said before, Casteism is deep rooted and it will break in India only when an individual associates himself with the Nation as opposed to his/her particular community (which in India is almost always caste based) this issue will go away completely. Modern life with the promotion of individualism surely will bring India closer to breaking Casteism.

USA as a country embraces change, where as in India we as people do not like change. Look at USA as a teenager and look at India as an old man.

So, in my opinion, it will take time for India.

Regards,
KRS

i have one simple thing longing in my mind for quite long time about that.

let me go by you, that caste system started roughly 5000 years ago, be it aptitude based or birth based, lets not go deep in to it.

considering the points expressed by nara, racism exists in u.s too, but its diminishing or diminished drastically out there. majority see it as bad. no hollywood movie goes without black participation, no benneton advt goes without a black kid, and in the recent few years i have seen the TV cartoon comes with a mix of black, white and yellow. almond eyes are getting glorified. here we are talking about a 300 years history of american racism .

comparing with india, its 4500 years old history, where man in america must have been in tree tops or caves. we had great civilizations. yet,why with such a long time span, we couldnt come out of this discrimination..... comparatively, even now?

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

The 'we had an affair' lady is African American, I believe.

Regards,
KRS

Dear N:

I don't think so, although my wife believes that there is some element of it (because all the three women accusers are White).

His public statements say that he is innocent.. then, I don't know why he suspended his campaign: perhaps, that's what Koch Brothers - his Sponsors - wanted him to do now!

Wait & watch

Cheers.

 

[prasad1]

As I have said before, Casteism is deep rooted and it will break in India only when an individual associates himself with the Nation as opposed to his/her particular community (which in India is almost always caste based) this issue will go away completely. Modern life with the promotion of individualism is surely will bring India closer to breaking Casteism.

That is good way to see casteism in its present form. I hope you are right. The present system of reservations, quota, local people is very divisive. It also shuns Meritocracy, so instead of getting the best and rewarding them, you end up promoting mediocracy.

 

[Yamaka]

Hello ALL:

While we talk about Casteism in India and Racism in the US, please address Eve Teasing and Sexual Harassment in India also.

In my view, Sexual Harassment is equally a vile and venal discriminatory practice in any Society, more so in Indian context.

My wife explodes in anger saying, "While traveling in city buses, how rudely women are being violated by most men in India, even by very religious boys, extremely horrible, and it grows the same way in the work places in India: young women are harassed with impunity - the Society largely keeps quiet about it !"

Please talk about it openly..

Cheers.

ps. Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas issue broke the issue open in the US - people started talking a lot about it. In that issue, I believed what all Anita Hill said about Clarence Thomas, who was lying in the broad day light. I really wished that he withdrew his Nomination by HW Bush or Bush dropped him. Oh, well now it's all old history!

 

[prasad1]

please address Eve Teasing and Sexual Harassment in India also.

In my view, Sexual Harassment is equally a vile and venal discriminatory practice in any Society, more so in Indian context.

I strongly believe that this topic should get its own thread. Sexual harassment and teasing is terrible in the context of India. Please make a separate post.
Thanks

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Yamaka Ji,

My take on the Anita Hill testimony and the recent HC claims is this.

It is a shame that these are allowed in where only he says - she says exists. Not even a preserved blue dress to refute a seemingly outraged president wagging his finger at the world saying " I never had.........with that WOMAN".

Because feminism is now radicalized, such statements of acts that can not be verified and proved are put out for political reasons. At least, I can not tell whether someone is telling the truth or not.

This is why, I withhold judgement, till something is proven. It is very easy to destroy reputations in the public arena and it is not fair. Once such an allegation is made public, even if it is proven false, the damage has already been done and a life is forever changed.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Racism or casteism at the individual level is terrible especially to the person experiencing the brunt of it. But the ill effects of racism is not limited to just those at the individual level that are overt. When it comes in a form that can be easily denied as racism/casteism at all is equally, if not far more, injurious. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

NAACP warns black and Hispanic Americans could lose right to vote | World news | guardian.co.uk

Some excerpts:

Fourteen states have passed a total of 25 measures that will unfairly restrict the right to vote, among black and Hispanic voters in particular.

The scale of the assault on voting rights is substantial, according to experts on electoral law. The Brennan Center for Justice, based at New York University law school, estimates that the new measures could bar as many as 5 million eligible voters from taking part in choosing the occupant of the White House next year.

Studies have showed that the proportion of voters who do not have access to valid photo ID cards is much higher among older African-Americans because they were not given birth certificates in the days of segregation.
​

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,

As far as I am coverned, this issue is a red herring presented by both political parties.

Both sides are exaggerating their respective affected numbers (fraud and disenfranchised) for clearly creating red meats for their constituencies. Just my pessimistic take on this.

Regards,
KRS

Racism or casteism at the individual level is terrible especially to the person experiencing the brunt of it. But the ill effects of racism is not limited to just those at the individual level that are overt. When it comes in a form that can be easily denied as racism/casteism at all is equally, if not far more, injurious. Here is an example of what I am talking about.

NAACP warns black and Hispanic Americans could lose right to vote | World news | guardian.co.uk

Some excerpts:

Fourteen states have passed a total of 25 measures that will unfairly restrict the right to vote, among black and Hispanic voters in particular.

The scale of the assault on voting rights is substantial, according to experts on electoral law. The Brennan Center for Justice, based at New York University law school, estimates that the new measures could bar as many as 5 million eligible voters from taking part in choosing the occupant of the White House next year.

Studies have showed that the proportion of voters who do not have access to valid photo ID cards is much higher among older African-Americans because they were not given birth certificates in the days of segregation.
​

 

[happyhindu]

Dharma rules were designed to promote the community interests. It was no accident that the people we call 'untouchables' came to be as a group that was banned from the village for their individualistic acts, violating the societal rules.

Dear Sir,

This generalisation "how untouchables came about" is not true. Its like saying they were banned for individual criminal acts.

Manusmrithi postulated certain groups as outcomes of certain varna admixtures, like chandalas, kshatris (as a mix of brahmins and shudras)...Wonder what business Manu had, to be relegating certain groups into specific jobs by bringing them under his varna scheme.

Moreover, we (sangom sir, myself, nara sir) had already discussed george hart's works on the forum, and about native priests getting pushed out as untouchables after vedic brahmins started coming into tamilakam...Regards.

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Yes. But the 'Chandalas' as a group was created and pushed to live at the edges of the village, precisely because of a 'legal' code adopted by the dharma rules. Is this not correct? We may now see those folks as not doing any crimes based on today's mores, but what I wanted to convey was that dharma rule books like Manu's existed to serve the community rather than individuals. I don't understand where we disagree. I am not putting a value judgement on those dharma rules as it is totally a different topic.

Please read: http://books.google.com/books?id=pS...#v=onepage&q=origin of untouchability&f=false

Regards,
KRS

 

[Nara]

Racial bias or racism, you decide....

ProPublica reports on Presidential pardons ...

Of the 1,918 pardon requests during President Bush's two terms in office ProPublica analyzed 494 randomly selected cases. The pardons granted by race:

Whites 12%
Hispanics 10%
Asians 10%
Blacks 0%

One of the important predictors is whether the applicant was a donor or not.

For more: Presidential Pardons Heavily Favor Whites - ProPublica

Cheers!

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. K.R.S,

The apparent discrepancies in the admission of the students for post graduation is not due to bias or hatred of any race, country or caste.

That way it is far superior to the system existing in India. As you have rightly pointed out, the bright students still manage to get admission in more than one university in U.S.A.

Thank you for your detailed response.
with warm regards, ray2:
Mrs. V.R.

 

[KRS]

Dear Professor Ji,

Do we have the same statistics for Presidents Clinton and Carter? And other Presidents as well? What is President Obama's record? I bet it is similar to that of Prseident Bush when it comes to donors! (Solyndra not withstanding )

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Yes. But the 'Chandalas' as a group was created and pushed to live at the edges of the village, precisely because of a 'legal' code adopted by the dharma rules. Is this not correct? We may now see those folks as not doing any crimes based on today's mores, but what I wanted to convey was that dharma rule books like Manu's existed to serve the community rather than individuals. I don't understand where we disagree. I am not putting a value judgement on those dharma rules as it is totally a different topic.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

What you say is not very clear. Please do elaborate.

Does any smrithi say that chandalas were 'created' as a group, because of crimes they committed? Please clarify.

Afaik, Manusmrithi designated very few groups are criminals. And there is no crime assigned to Chandalas, Kshatris, Ayogavas, etc. Manu merely designates these groups as those who arose from an admixture of varnas. And perhaps thus slotted them into certain occupations.

Ofcourse there are groups, like 'dasyus' whom Manu calls robbers. These were robbers who attacked men. Which would be considered crime anyday.

But then we cud say, that we find cattle-raids in the vedas, and so sensibilities had changed in Manu's time. So ofcourse i do accept changing social mores in what we see as 'crime'.

Manu gives a very broad defination of who is a dasyu (which is rather lame i suppose because of the shortcomings involved in it). In manusmrithi 10.45, he say all tribes excluded from the mouth, arms, thighs, feet are dasyus, literally he designates dasyus as outcastes.

So yes one can say the dasyus were robbers hence outcastes. However i find no such definition of a chandala, kshatri or any "untouchable" being designated as an outcaste due to any crime.

So please clarify.

Regards.

 

[Nara]

...Do we have the same statistics for Presidents Clinton and Carter? And other Presidents as well? What is President Obama's record? I bet it is similar to that of Prseident Bush when it comes to donors!

This is not about Republicans or Democrats, it is about the racial bias or what one may suspect is a fabric of racism. Obama being black does not make him automatically any better than Bush, or Clinton or Carter.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Thank you Srimathi VR Ji.

Let me share a couple of stories with you on this topic, if you do not mind.

A brilliant student, passed Intermediate with #2 rank out of Madras University in the late 1950s, did not even get called in for an interview for admission to either Madras Medical or Stanley, because of his caste (Brahmin). Another reputed medical school admits him and he is now world renowned.

Fast forward. A person from the same caste applies to a premier MBA school in India. Not a great academic background, but good 3 year experience in a unique job (non IT). Very low GMAT score. Gets admitted and graduated. Now this person is advising folks with low GMAT scores on how to gain admission to this institution!

Things are a changing even in India! Nataraja is still dancing!

Regards,
KRS

Dear Mr. K.R.S,

The apparent discrepancies in the admission of the students for post graduation is not due to bias or hatred of any race, country or caste.

That way it is far superior to the system existing in India. As you have rightly pointed out, the bright students still manage to get admission in more than one university in U.S.A.

Thank you for your detailed response.
with warm regards, ray2:
Mrs. V.R.

 

[KRS]

Dear brother Professor Ji,

I agree. On some topics, we think alike!

Regards,
KRS

This is not about Republicans or Democrats, it is about the racial bias or what one may suspect is a fabric of racism. Obama being black does not make him automatically any better than Bush, or Clinton or Carter.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Please read the article I cite above in my post, perhaps after your response. The import of my posting is not to go in to the details of whether untouchability came about because of criminality or social edict or profession. To my point, this is immaterial. What is material is that the creation of this group was and its role defined as it evolved mainly on the basis of a concept of what is better for the overall society, rather than on the merits of individualism. In other words, everyone had to toe the line.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

What you say is not very clear. Please do elaborate.

Does any smrithi say that chandalas were 'created' as a group, because of crimes they committed? Please clarify.

Afaik, Manusmrithi designated very few groups are criminals. And there is no crime assigned to Chandalas, Kshatris, Ayogavas, etc. Manu merely designates these groups as those who arose from an admixture of varnas. And perhaps thus slotted them into certain occupations.

Ofcourse there are groups, like 'dasyus' whom Manu calls robbers. These were robbers who attacked men. Which would be considered crime anyday.

But then we cud say, that we find cattle-raids in the vedas, and so sensibilities had changed in Manu's time. So ofcourse i do accept changing social mores in what we see as 'crime'.

Manu gives a very broad defination of who is a dasyu (which is rather lame i suppose because of the shortcomings involved in it). In manusmrithi 10.45, he say all tribes excluded from the mouth, arms, thighs, feet are dasyus, literally he designates dasyus as outcastes.

So yes one can say the dasyus were robbers hence outcastes. However i find no such definition of a chandala, kshatri or any "untouchable" being designated as an outcaste due to any crime.

So please clarify.

Regards.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Srimathi HH Ji,

Please read the article I cite above in my post, perhaps after your response. The import of my posting is not to go in to the details of whether untouchability came about because of criminality or social edict or profession. To my point, this is immaterial. What is material is that the creation of this group was and its role defined as it evolved mainly on the basis of a concept of what is better for the overall society, rather than on the merits of individualism. In other words, everyone had to toe the line.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

Thanks for the link. Its an interesting read. It brings out what have been saying all along, that is, about varied origins of people, including rishis who were not a monolith created by a single entity but instead arose out of any social group. And also the fact that permissibility for shudras was not so strict in the early dharmashastras, but increasingly became so in the later dharmashastras.

In your previous post what you were conveying regarding untouchables or chandalas was not clear since you said "We may now see those folks as not doing any crimes based on today's mores". So sought clarification, since i do not find any person/group being designated as untouchables for committing or being associated with a crime.

I thot it better to seek clarification because streotyping character based on caste can get upsetting for some.

It is kind of puzzling why in manusmrithi only certain groups were considered the lowest of men, although Manu presented so many other permutations and combinations of varnas (which went lower than a chandala). It does not make sense to specifically avoid the sight and touch of a chandala; unless the chandala was a brahman's competitor (or so i wud think).

Its even more puzzling because Manu recognises only ten as sages (Marichi, Atri, Angiras, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Prachetas, Vasishtha, Bhrigu, and Narada). But when it came to designating manes, Manu specifies Sukalins as manes of Shudras and as the issues of Vasishtha.

So am wondering if in Manu's time, the shudras were actually the vashistas. Considering the complexities involved, i thot maybe its not a good idea to bring in, or associate, any form of 'crime' idea with any social group mentioned in the smrithis. Also, if a group is outcasted, perhaps they had no choice but to become robbers.

Regards.

 

[Raghy]

Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #79 in response to part of Sowbagyavthy Vishalakshi Ramani's message. In your message, you are trying to justify the hatred shown against all brahmins; hatred shown based on their birth alone. You are trying to justify the hatred by citing references from colonial period and period before. Brahmins who suffer today do not make rules about veda padasala enrolments. The brahmins who suffer today due to reservation policies do not even know Sanskrit leave alone Vedas. The persons actually do the discrimination about veda padasala enrolments are not affected by the reservation policies; in fact, those persons are respected and supported financially by NBs. The sad fact is, you are very well aware of these facts. I am only talking about your message. Your message only seems to support hatred against one whole community. In a different instance, your message was in effect urging brahmins to leave India/Tamil Nadu if they are not happy about the reservation policies.

kindly allow me to condemn the hatred displayed against one comunity of people in your messages, please.