Racism in the U.S.

[kunjuppu]

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this article in today's toronto globe.

i am quite sure 100% of us here in the forum would be horrified at this. how can humans behave like this. that too in our own bharat.

now imagine, these dalit children grow up. how much of a hatred and grievance they would have against a society that humiliated them so much. and all their ancestors.

I believe, whether it be racism in the usa or casteism in india, the perspectives depend on the victim’s views. Ask any black person in the usa, and chances are he/she will swear by the racism there. the blacks are the only unwilling immigrants and waves and waves of immigrants have stomped over them, and prospered. Still, iinspite of the improvements, there is a permanent black underclass, doing the menial jobs, and further more, being the whipping boy for all societies’ ills like drugs and prostitution.

Many a times I wonder, how much the remembered memories of the dalits and the ‘lower castes’ would deal with the insults imposed on them by the upper castes. I also wonder, even if today tambrams are not a presence any more in caste oppression, whether our ancestors did a great job, in initiating and teaching the norms, nuances and values to the middle levels, so that the oppression at each level was complete and sublime. i use sublimity from an ironic viewpoint, because we hafve all along invoked divinity for the set purpose of the abuse and abject treatment of the panchamas.

From the viewpoint of the dalits, it is immaterial whether the usa racism exists or is more oppressive than the casteism in india. And vice versa.

Honestly I think, no one can claim that there is no racism or no casteism. Just ask the victims, and each one can produce a litany of instances where they have been slighted and dignity ruffled.

How to get out of it? I don’t know.

We have a close relative in Chennai, 80+, all children abroad, and she living alone. She is prone to diseases, complaints and loneliness. Her succour is a dr Robert. She calls him up day and night, and the good gentleman rushes to her side, from his home, holds her hand, gives an injection, a pill, but above all a sense of immediate comfort. a chance talk with me, and he said, that his father was a dalit convert – the conversion, his dad felt, just to gain dignity.

Today he is doctor Robert admitted and respected in a brahmin’s house. His father was just a street parayan, and it is this stigma that the dad wanted to get rid of. I have heard several stories of such conversions, and met a few, some angry and others resigned or proud of their new status, and the joy that they will be leaving their children a better world than what they inherited. I wish I could say the same.

i am quite sure that dr R's dad will have a sense of immense satisfaction, of seeing his son, being the source of comfort to a brahmin lady, when in his own eyes, her own children have abandoned her. what a rise in status!

Btw the old lady is living in Chennai out of her own choice. One week with the dil is enough to drive both of them and their son nuts. The daughters would not have her, for the same reason.

conversion, is the only option, as dr CP felt when he encouraged malayali dalits to embrace the christian church - a quick way to education and liberation. that may be the only option for the tribals and downtrodden in india, unless. UNLESS CASTE HINDUS HAVE A CHANGE OF HEART AND ATTITUDE.

 

[happyhindu]

This one is reverse discrimination -- Racism in America: Episode Two - YouTube

Nice to see people making such clipshots and addressing the racism issue in an open way, acknowledged by both sides, with some humor in it....

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Smt. V.R.

I had only second hand information that racism in the US is in reality, much more than what is generally projected by the US govt. and agencies, but since I started searching the internet, I found that it is a lot more prevalent than what is, sort of, advised to be. I also understand that in some "stray incidents" as Shri nara, Shri yamaka, and others try to emphasize, the children are subjected to a lot of tension because they do not look as one among the other white kids and somehow, get discriminated. I do not know the truth. If you have any info. please share with others here.

dear Sir,

Reading the article through the link provided makes it very clear that we (Asians) are not even in the second place but in the third - even below the African Americans.

I and my husband used to go to the University with my son many times and we would always see Chinese and Indian students burning the midnight oil.

Not one white... not one American. They will disappear on Friday afternoons and emerge only on Monday mornings.

They have time for girl friends, parties and other enjoyments while our own kids work as if they are doing severe penance with uninterrupted concentration. Survival of the fittest!

Now the reason is clear. The whites and blacks had only less standard to maintain and required less grades to see them through.

It looks like nobody wants us anymore. In India we are hated because we are supposed to be the forward caste. Every step, every entrance, every opening is made harder, more difficult and narrower for us.

Abroad we are the browns and the yellows whom the whites and the blacks detest.

How do you like it ?

 

[kunjuppu]

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

result...?

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian'

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian' - Yahoo! News


(Thanks to Mr. M.S K Moorthy for the link)

afaik, the term 'asian' in the usa refers to chinese, koreans and japanese, the the last mentioned have very little new comers, and the previous generations have intermarried and mixed with the anglo society.

the asian students are motivated, as a group. these kids are driven to excel, not only in studies, but in games, music and extra curricular activities.

amy chua has written an interesting book about these chinese 'tiger moms' who deprive their kids of fun, games, TV and relaxation.
against this intensity and purpose, the white kids whittle and fade out of awe. these days a chinese guy is considered a 'good catch' for a white girl, and much in demand (i think)

why chinese moms are superior

compared to that, i think indian kids in the usa have it a bit easier, though not by much. the indian kids have to balance all that the chinese kids have to, and in addition bharatanatyam or carnatic music or classical hindustani music.

which is why it is not uncommon for harvard freshman class to have 75% of their students from asian andindian. the only way to keep these two from 'dominating' and to give others a fair chance, is to impose quota. which is what i suspect is being done in many name brand usa universities, though no one talks loud about it.

my friend told me, that in texas, there is a limit on the number of indian students admitted to medical schools - the quota varying by universities, but exists anyway.

ofcourse, i live in canada, where things are more relaxed. and what i have written about the usa here, may be entirely a figment of my imagination.

 

[prasad1]

Smt. V.R.

I had only second hand information that racism in the US is in reality, much more than what is generally projected by the US govt. and agencies, but since I started searching the internet, I found that it is a lot more prevalent than what is, sort of, advised to be. I also understand that in some "stray incidents" as Shri nara, Shri yamaka, and others try to emphasize, the children are subjected to a lot of tension because they do not look as one among the other white kids and somehow, get discriminated. I do not know the truth. If you have any info. please share with others here.

Please refer to my thread on Discrimination. One can not expect discrimination to end in all forms. We can only limit the overt discrimination, by legislating and strict enforcement. Social discrimination can be reduced by education, and economic progress. So the people wailing about some isolated abhorrent practice in some corner of India, as a mainstream casteism, should wake up to the reality. By wailing in public forum about these incidents you are only damaging India, and Indians. If you are really interested in eliminating these abhorrent practice take it up the appropriate authority.

 

[sravna]

Dear Shri Sangom,

When I talk about racism I mean white racism which I think is the most predominant one and one that draws the attention. Everything is finally related to skin color be it one's voice as in your example,or in the past, one's status to possess a slave. May be racism due to skin color is subsiding and not as pernicious as before but my point is it will take a lot longer time for people there to embrace equality based on color than it would take the brahmins here to give up caste discrimination. Also casteism has less force today than racism because the criterion of moral development has no relevance today.

 

[happyhindu]

Please refer to my thread on Discrimination. One can not expect discrimination to end in all forms. We can only limit the overt discrimination, by legislating and strict enforcement. Social discrimination can be reduced by education, and economic progress. So the people wailing about some isolated abhorrent practice in some corner of India, as a mainstream casteism, should wake up to the reality. By wailing in public forum about these incidents you are only damaging India, and Indians. If you are really interested in eliminating these abhorrent practice take it up the appropriate authority.

In this post you said you did not know there are eating places in Hindu temples for devotees. That shows how much you know about the religion (cannot even differentiate b/w brahmin and brahman) and culture/temples in india. What do you know about casteism, to class anything mainstream or not?

Legislation already exists to dismantle caste discrimination. However, some rabid varnaists like Batu Prasad Sharma are shameless enough to be jailed and yet they preach varnaism as part of religious 'values'.

India is damaged by indians. Authorities will not do anything about discrimination because the issue is about their own caste identity.

A truly functioning democracy is not allowed to exist, because of religious notions of caste (to be precise, varna. It is infact not caste-discrimination. It is varna-discrimination).

 

[prasad1]

ofcourse, i live in canada, where things are more relaxed. and what i have written about the usa here, may be entirely a figment of my imagination.

Racism in Canada

The common belief that Canada is far less racist then their neighbors to the
south is perhaps one of the greatest falsehoods of North American society today.
Through out history, Canada has been home to many race-based atrocities. Because of time and lack of media attention these events have been buried. To such an extent have these issues been neglected that the general public now cannot
recognized them or discern them as part of their country’s past. Although
recently over the past thirty to forty years Canada has been on the leading edge with human rights and in areas of equality between people/sexes, this has not always been the case. Canada’s history has been just a recently blemished as that of the infamous United States. Three examples that depict this downfall are: the Chinese head tax, the internet of Japanese Canadians during world war two and the open anti-Semitism of the early though mid nineteen hundreds. It is important that people begin to recognize the downfalls of our marvelous country rather than living in ignorance.

Racism In Canada

"As someone who left India 44 years ago for the U.K./Canada, I have firsthand experience of racism in polytechnics (U.K.) and universities (Canada). I have learned to live with the fact that I have to perform better to be considered at par with my fair-skinned colleagues. Now it does not bother me anymore.
S K Goyal
Professor, John Molson School of Business
Concordia University


Read more: Wake up, Canada. Racism is here

Toronto News: Sizing up racism in Canada - thestar.com
UNITED NATIONS - Canada yesterday appeared before a United Nations committee on the elimination of racial discrimination to defend itself against allegations that racial injustices persist against black, Chinese and aboriginal Canadians, and that immigrants do not earn as much as people born in the country.
NATIONAL POST

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=f469b36e-c587-40e7-98e5-3aa50a371318&k=23802

Crunching thousands of numbers from 41,666 people interviewed in nine languages, the just-published study found skin colour – not religion, not income – was the biggest barrier to immigrants feeling they belonged here. And the darker the skin, the greater the alienation.

Racism in Canada

The common belief that Canada is far less racist then their neighbors to the
south is perhaps one of the greatest falsehoods of North American society today.
Through out history, Canada has been home to many race-based atrocities. Because of time and lack of media attention these events have been buried. To such an extent have these issues been neglected that the general public now cannot
recognized them or discern them as part of their country’s past. Although
recently over the past thirty to forty years Canada has been on the leading edge with human rights and in areas of equality between people/sexes, this has not always been the case. Canada’s history has been just a recently blemished as that of the infamous United States. Three examples that depict this downfall are: the Chinese head tax, the internet of Japanese Canadians during world war two and the open anti-Semitism of the early though mid nineteen hundreds. It is important that people begin to recognize the downfalls of our marvelous country rather than living in ignorance.

http://www.digitaltermpapers.com/a1461.htm

"As someone who left India 44 years ago for the U.K./Canada, I have firsthand experience of racism in polytechnics (U.K.) and universities (Canada). I have learned to live with the fact that I have to perform better to be considered at par with my fair-skinned colleagues. Now it does not bother me anymore.
S K Goyal
Professor, John Molson School of Business
Concordia University


Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/life/Wake+Canada+Racism+here/5485102/story.html#ixzz1ffROA3rC

http://www.thestar.com/article/592690
UNITED NATIONS - Canada yesterday appeared before a United Nations committee on the elimination of racial discrimination to defend itself against allegations that racial injustices persist against black, Chinese and aboriginal Canadians, and that immigrants do not earn as much as people born in the country.
http://www.unwatch.com/canda-racism.html

Crunching thousands of numbers from 41,666 people interviewed in nine languages, the just-published study found skin colour – not religion, not income – was the biggest barrier to immigrants feeling they belonged here. And the darker the skin, the greater the alienation.

http://restructure.wordpress.com/2009/05/15/canadas-integration-problem-is-racism-not-multiculturalism-study/

Do I need to find more?

 

[happyhindu]

The basis of discrimination in racism is starkingly different from that of casteism.
whereas the former is on a trivial basis of skin color which actually purports to a non existing superior intelligence the latter is based on the development of moral values among individuals. So racism is likely to survive much longer than casteism because of its irrational basis.

It is far more difficult to give up attachment to a pet belief than making some one see the rationale against something. The brahmins in my opinion are and would be more open and more wholehearted in their efforts to do away with the birth based casteism than a white person would be to wholeheartedly do away with racism.

Dear Shri Sangom,

When I talk about racism I mean white racism which I think is the most predominant one and one that draws the attention. Everything is finally related to skin color be it one's voice as in your example,or in the past, one's status to possess a slave. May be racism due to skin color is subsiding and not as pernicious as before but my point is it will take a lot longer time for people there to embrace equality based on color than it would take the brahmins here to give up caste discrimination. Also casteism has less force today than racism because the criterion of moral development has no relevance today.

Are you saying caste is/was based on moral development / moral values in individuals ? Where is the proof for it?

 

[sangom]

01-12-2011, 12:21 PM #38

sangom
More than 15 posts, that too by the most well-informed veterans, have been written during last night. I have a small problem with font display in my system. So my typing is cruelly slow. Hope I will complete this summary post from my side touching upon most of the points in the various posts.

My main point or contention was, and is, that we as a web community under the banner "tamilbrahmins.com", have been spending a lot of time, energy, and archive storage too, in condemning the caste system of India, and more especially, the brahmins, for giving shape to it via the scriptural route and strengthening and fine-tuning it by means of the various Dharmasastras, and so on. Along the way, we have also had much discussion about jati and varna and the final word on this - whether caste represents jati, clan, varna - has not been said yet, imo. If, as Shri prasad has now spelt out, "discrimination" on some basis or another is unavoidable in any human society and such discriminatory practices exist throughout the world, the crux of the matter being the "we vs. they" feeling, then, in all fairness, that there is no more need for us to flog only the caste system and brahmins in India, so continuously and zealously, as we have been doing all this time.

Instead, let us realize that discrimination is there everywhere including the most advanced countries like USA, Canada, Europe, UK, etc., and that caste-system is the name for the type of discriminatory vein in the Indian society while the practice in other countries may be called by different names like racism, (apartheid in old SA) and so on.

While my stand on caste discrimination has not changed, I feel it is wrong to concentrate only on the Indian scene since this tbf says it is for tamil brahmins spread across the entire globe; hence we must give attention to the discriminatory practices in other countries also, increasingly, so that, as a web community of members of tamilbrahmins.com (not of tamilbrahmins alone, kindly note) we will be seen to be registering our dissent against all discriminatory practices, everywhere. After all did not Bharathiyar declare -
தனி ஒரு மனிதனுக்குணவிலையெனில் ஜகத்தினை அழித்திடுவோம் (taṉi oru maṉitaṉukkuṇavilaiyeṉil jakattiṉai aḻittiṭuvom)? In a similar way, shall we not function on a world-wide viewpoint, at least in pointing out the discriminatory practices?

That, in the US, there is concerted effort from all segments of society, Government, Church, and Civil society to educate the general public and lift them up out of the ignorance of racism and that there is no such broad based effort in India, has been adduced as one reason for the caste system deserving the treatment it now gets (by Shri Nara). Coming to think of it pragmatically, I am not convinced that this forum and the various posts made here and the massive archive, can/do create opinions or change opinions in any significant way. The reactions to the anti-casteism posts from some members and the fact that not even one of those has found it necessary to change his/her views in the last few years, is testimony to my view above. Secondly there are many other sources like senthilraj's blogs which support and exclaim the caste system and net surfers can go to such sites if they want comfort and inspiration.

It may be true that the racism in the west is much more in an advanced stage of complete eradication, as compared to the caste prejudices in India. But I don't think anyone will be able to accuse the successive governments of India of not having legislated against casteism and also of not putting into practice steps to implement those legislations. Misuse of these provisions, both by the intended beneficiaries of these positive discrimination, as also by others, is a separate issue, and, in a poverty-stricken, over-populated country like India, perhaps it will be more evident than in the US. But today, the younger generations across all components of the society in India, do not grow with the caste inputs or caste consciousness uppermost in their minds, even in the government schools to which the lowest sections send their children (in Kerala). Therefore, I feel convinced that the casteist ethos is definitely on the decline in India also, just as racist supremacist feelings are supposed to be waning in the US & the West. To continue to flog indian caste system vigorously and relentlessly in such a scenario, will therefore be like a person with elephanthiasis in one leg, covering it in slush and scolding another with the swelling on both the legs, for polluting the river, imo.

Shri Nara opines, "Racism in the U.S. and casteism in India share one more similarity, both are alive and kicking. Racism often lurking just below the surface. But the big difference is, in the U.S. except for some lunatic fringe, nobody tolerates overt racism. No public official however mighty can express racially motivated comments and not face swift disgrace. The run of the mill racist has to hide his racism. In contrast, in India, casteism is in full display. Caste-based discrimination occurs routinely in a matter of fact manner. " AFAI have seen, overt display of casteism is not practised even in India by political leaders. But because of the various differences in place, time and history, combined with the poverty and population, it is likely that the caste feeling of "belonging", comes covertly in cases such as those of Mayawati. Essentially, therefore, what we see is just differences in the minutiae, but the basic fact of discrimination is the same and many people have this feeling underneath their exterior. As Shri Krishnamurthy rightly says, "these feelings will remain dormant as long as everyone is (more or less) equally prosperous and there is no wide disparity in economic status".

To summarize my views, let us give a breather to casteism discussions with reference to India/TN, in this forum and try to pay some attention to the various kinds of covert discriminations seen in the more advanced nations.

Raghy likes this.

01-12-2011, 02:14 PM #47

sangom
I well understand the limitations of a web forum like this, but still, the caste grouping in India is here to stay, at least for the next few generations, i.e., till the next century at least, imho. To vehemently call for its eradication, destruction of brahminism (which, I feel is being used to refer to brahmin supremacist notions), etc., in a forum like this is tantamount to screaming from inside a room with closed doors.

Additionally, if we calmly consider the matter, where is brahmin supremacy in India to day? For that matter, except perhaps the Peshwas and Sungas much earlier, there was no brahminic ruling dynasty. Rajputs also claim agnikula kshatriya status only. And, do we find the caste-based practices which were very evident about 60 years ago, today? May be in some spots there are obnoxious practices still existing/continuing, but the remedy for that is definitely not just criticizing the entire caste system here. If possible one should go to the concerned area and educate both sides. like the tv channels profess to do at times; otherwise if one is very keen to eradicate it, that person should try to write to the District Collector, the State Government, the SC/ST commission, or even the high court, etc.

I have come to this conclusion because I feel that if we can be at peace with discriminatory practices in one country and try to whitewash it as long as possible and keep quiet, the same should be our attitude towards home country or motherland also.
suraju06 likes this.

01-12-2011, 07:03 PM #62

Nara
Originally Posted by sangom
... To vehemently call for its eradication, destruction of brahminism (which, I feel is being used to refer to brahmin supremacist notions), etc., in a forum like this is tantamount to screaming from inside a room with closed doors.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, much of what we write in this forum can be characterized as screaming from inside a room with closed doors. At best a few hundred people may read what we write. I myself take it as an interesting time pass, nothing more serious. To look for solutions here like some people do is pointless in my view.

Having said that, if our writings can have any impact at all it is at the individual level. Even if one single reader gets motivated to think beyond the narrow view like "my jAti" that would mean some of our screaming has leaked out of the closed door.
Additionally, if we calmly consider the matter, where is brahmin supremacy in India to day?

Today Brahmins may not wield near total state power like they did in past in a mutually beneficial relationship with the ruler as the ones who bestow legitimacy over them. But they still do occupy various positions of state and economic power and not all of whom have transcended their caste attachment.

This is not to say we must pull them all down, but only that we must face the reality in an objective way and try to encourage eradication of caste feelings in our own individual life. Looking for grand solutions to reengineer society is beyond the scope of this web site, I think.

My comments:
Firstly the number of Brahmins in positions of state and economic power in India, today, is very very low, because of the positive discrimination and promotion policies thereunder. Secondly, even if someone among these rare Brahmin high-ups wishes to give appointment or promotion to a person of his own caste, it is impossible unless he is prepared to face disciplinary action and its consequences; this is because appointments and promotions are mostly through interviews and in all such interview panels one SC/ST representative – usually very highly placed within the organization itself, or from another wing/dept., or even state govt. functionaries like Collector, Director of SC/ST welfare, etc., must be present and their duty is to see that no hanky-panky or other devious methods are resorted to in order to throw out any deserving SC/ST candidate or to include, slyly, any non-SC/ST candidate. This procedure is a must even when there is no SC/ST candidate (this sometimes happens in the case of promotions, but rarely in fresh appointments) in the list of candidates.
I feel, therefore, that the procedures and machinery for ensuring the guidelines/orders of the govts. is as much efficient and effective (if not more) in India as in US.
So, your idea that by relentless criticism of Brahmins, brahminism, etc., in this website you will encourage eradication of caste feelings in others is a mere delusion.
Further, too much of even the best medicine will produce mostly bad and uncomfortable results. This obsession in this forum with incessant tirade against brahminism, in the hope of eradicating caste feelings, has only resulted in a person like myself, holding the view that Brahmin-superiority feeling is bad, religion is not so sacrosanct and not a good guide to anything, etc., getting fed up with the whole thing, because it is now clear (to me at least) that you can very easily brush of white racism in the US by saying some clichéd platitudes but the demon of Indian caste is so terrifying to you. You may ask, “why don’t you leave the forum then?”. I may even do that if there is no other way, but not in a huff.
I have come to this conclusion because I feel that if we can be at peace with discriminatory practices in one country and try to whitewash it as long as possible and keep quiet, the same should be our attitude towards home country or motherland also.

I already expressed my thoughts on this point. I can only talk about myself, and I think I have never stayed quiet or tried to whitewash practices of my adopted country. I also feel my unbreakable connection to the land of my birth gives me the right to talk about issues affecting India.

Cheers!

• Like

happyhindu likes this.
While I fully understand and concede your right to talk about issues affecting India., is it not a fact that the caste factor and brahminism are two topics which come up most frequently in your posts?

 

[sangom]

01-12-2011, 08:27 PM #66

sangom
Originally Posted by prasad1
Biswa you are so right, but then again I never lived in Tamil Nadu. Having left India in 70s I did not encounter the caste issue either. I never new the resentment for or against caste based division. Even now it seems that it is historic and now being used for votes in politics. I do not see any institutionalized use of caste based division in India in public. If people are practicing it in private, nothing can be done except education and social pressure to change.

In a similar fashion in US the overt racism is put down strongly in public forum like housing, jobs, and in reporting. There is this strong urge to be politically correct, so that people do not get upset. Private feelings and prejudice can not be legislated. In Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc it is very different. Racism is tolerated much more than in big cities.
Reuters reported 11/30/11:
"Nine members of Gulnare Freewill Baptist Church backed their former pastor, with six opposed, in Sunday's vote to bar interracial couples from church membership and worship activities. Funerals were excluded."

Kentucky church votes to ban interracial couples - Yahoo! News
Shri prasad,

Can I take it that even in some of the churches, the racism is alive and kicking? If so, it will go to reveal that the racist feelings are as much sharp as caste prejudices are in some pockets of India. But there was some comment here that whereas caste system denies equality before God (i.e., entry into temples), while the christian church allowed freedom of worship, and so the caste system is a monstrous one and racism, comparatively minor aberration only. But this argument does not seem to hold good.

I am particularly intrigued by the comment :

The vote was taken after most of the 40 people who attended Sunday services had left the church in Pike County, near the border with West Virginia. Many members left to avoid the vote.

Most members of the church "didn't want anything to do with this," said longtime church official Dean Harville, whose daughter and her black fiance had drawn pastor Melvin Thompson's ire.


Should this be taken to mean that the 27 or so members favoured the ban or were against it? If US citizens are particular that they should be politically correct in public, should these people not have remained and voted against this ban? Hence I feel that racism is as much evident in US as caste prejudices in India. Is there scope for "whites bashing" in the context of US, on the lines of brahminism/brahmin-bashing with reference to India? Can we say the whiteskinned fellows should take the lead and compel the church to revoke the ban? I feel India is much better as it has allowed temple entry to all hindus without any great opposition from the priests.

Shri Prasad has, once again, taken a position of பாலுக்கும் காவல் பூனைக்கும் தோழன், here, imo. He says first “in US the overt racism is put down strongly in public forum like housing, jobs, and in reporting. There is this strong urge to be politically correct, so that people do not get upset. ” Then goes on somewhat on the cue given earlier in Shri kunjuppu’s post and states, “Private feelings and prejudice can not be legislated. In Alabama, Mississippi, Oklahoma, etc it is very different. Racism is tolerated much more than in big cities.” Does he mean that throughout these three states (I suppose there are no ‘cities’ with these names.) racism is tolerated much more than in big cities outside of these states?



01-12-2011, 09:09 PM #67

Nara
From Huffington Post:

Some excerpts:

According to Harville's father, Dean Harville, Stella brought Chikuni to the church in June where they performed a song for the congregation. Following the visit, pastor Melvin Thompson told Harville that his daughter and her fiance could not sing at the church again. Thompson later proposed that the church go on record saying that while all people were welcome to attend public worship services there, the church did not condone interracial marriage. His proposal, which was accepted by a 9-6 vote last week....


"It's not the spirit of the community in any way, shape or form," said Randy Johnson, president of the Pike County Ministerial Association, according to Kentucky.com.


While Pike County and the surrounding community come to grips with the church's decision, researchers at Ohio State University and Cornell University say black-white marriages in the United States are soaring, increasing threefold, from 3 percent in 1980 to 10.7 percent in 2008.


In the U.S. there are probably hundreds of thousands of small unaffiliated churches. It is not wise to draw broad conclusions from isolated cases like this. While the presence of racism is undeniable, it is not tolerated by the majority the way casteism is in India.

Cheers!
My remarks:

“not wise to draw broad conclusions from isolated cases like this,” and then, “it is not tolerated by the majority the way casteism is in India.” My doubt is, how do we say the majority in India tolerates casteism? Is not the majority in the US also not tolerating racism since, otherwise such incidents would not have occurred at all? What has the majority in the US – for that matter in the very community itself - done here which can prove that it has not tolerated this? (I am not talking about mere further developments in this case.)


01-12-2011, 09:36 PM #69

sangom
Originally Posted by Nara

In the U.S. there are probably hundreds of thousands of small unaffiliated churches. It is not wise to draw broad conclusions from isolated cases like this. While the presence of racism is undeniable, it is not tolerated by the majority the way casteism is in India.

Cheers!
Dear Shri Nara,

I agree that the incident could be an isolated one. But that just does not prove that the majority in the US do not "tolerate" racism. Even in that incident the majority seems to have silently supported the ban.

I don't understand how you assert that casteism is tolerated by the majority in India. Will you kindly elucidate?
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01-12-2011, 11:59 PM #73
kunjuppu
i dont know what to make of this .. is it faith? true faith? or something else?

anga pradhashnam over ecchchil elai?

... and the consequences

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My remarks:
This was a topic not at all related to the subject matter of this thread. I felt Shri kunjuppu, with all the familiarity and expertise he has about this forum, has deliberately brought this in here with twin objectives:
1. to deflect discussions away from US racism since it was becoming somewhat evident that there is a concerted effort to downplay racism, and,
2. to light the fuse of a casteist bomb.

I could have objected to this but I felt it is better to allow this and the further discussions which, I was sure, would end in Brahmins and anti-brahminism, etc., to remain as indirect evidence for people to think and draw their own conclusions.

02-12-2011, 12:19 AM #74

Nara
Originally Posted by sangom
....I agree that the incident could be an isolated one. But that just does not prove that the majority in the US do not "tolerate" racism. Even in that incident the majority seems to have silently supported the ban.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I have already given my view on the matter of race and caste here and here. In this case of supremacist pastor banning interracial marriage, all I am suggesting is not to derive broad conclusions based on isolated incidences.

I don't understand how you assert that casteism is tolerated by the majority in India. Will you kindly elucidate?

I am intrigued you are asking me to elucidate what must be as obvious as the back of one's hand. Is not caste one of the most prominent aspects of social life in India? Many electrons have been been expended on this very topic that I beg your pardon and excuse myself from having to repeat some of them.

Cheers!

My remarks:
Again, the suggestion “not to derive broad conclusions based on isolated incidences” when it comes to racism but projecting the case of Vasantha Kandasamy’s mother as representative example of discriminatory treatment given to all dalit professors in India. Strange strategy indeed!

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02-12-2011, 12:56 PM #90

sangom
riginally Posted by prasad1
Exploring race: Why customers prefer white men
"A new study in an upcoming Academy of Management Journal takes on why white men continue to earn 25 percent more than equally well performing women and minorities.

It’s true that not everybody has a job that relies so heavily on customer service. But keep in mind that the service industry comprises 82 percent of the economy."

Shri prasad,

I thank you for bringing out to our knowledge the reality that despite all the steps, laws and rules, the evil of racism is very much alive in the US today. I have had chance to discuss this topic with my son who is living in the US as citizen, as also some other youngsters who are green card holders and/or citizens. The feedback I received and continue to, is that the white people in US are very, very conscious of skin colour and prejudice against AAs, Indian immigrants into US etc., is very much evident if you live there for a few months and become familiar with their slang and slurred manner of speaking, so as to understand the snide remarks in low tones which may be audible enough for a person nearby.

My son, fortunately, takes after mother and is fair - not like me, blackish brown or brownish black! He says he would not have liked to continue if his complexion was not this good. But, he says, there is some difference in attitudes of the white people to well-earning, IT people who may own the high-end cars, rent flats in the mostly white apartments/drives (?), etc., because the average white person is shrewd enough to know and respect money where it is. Still, social intermingling at the household level will be restricted unless they (the white people) find that you have changed over to their customs, manners, belief systems (not religion) and all that - in effect you and your family must become a brown saayippu! and your children should be fair-complexioned.

My only objection as far as this forum is concerned is that a realistic picture is not being given to the readers and all possible efforts are being put by members like Nara, Kunjuppu, etc., seem to explain away even the instances which are being presented by you, as isolated cases and not reflecting the majority US population's attitudes. This in our native language is what is called முழுப்பூசணிக்காயெ சோத்தாலெ மறைக்கப்பார்க்கறது (trying to hide an entire pumpkin with cooked rice - and then pretending there is no pumpkin and only the good, edible rice of such huge quantity).

On the contrary, regarding caste-based incidents in India or Tamil Nadu, the US-based people who appear to be apologists of every US defect, say that even now caste-based incidents are happening in India and that it is as clear as the back of one's palm. But they do not have any examples to cite.

What I say is, yes, there is caste in India and almost all people are aware of their caste. But this does not come in the day-to-day lives of most of the people of India today, just as the pervasive covert racism in the US may not be affecting the daily lives of the people there. So, why go on flogging only the caste system in India and at the same time act as apologists for anything american? I begin to suspect that despite all that is claimed about freedom of speech etc., in the US, indian immigrants to US may be afraid of being singled out by Big Brother if they criticize their racism, sitting there.

I therefore request you to continue giving us news about racist incidents in US if it is not inconvenient to you.

My remarks: I think this is self-explanatory.

Last edited by sangom; 02-12-2011 at 01:00 PM.
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[sangom]

02-12-2011, 09:44 PM #121

Nara
Originally Posted by sangom
.....My only objection as far as this forum is concerned is that a realistic picture is not being given to the readers and all possible efforts are being put by members like Nara, Kunjuppu, etc., seem to explain away even the instances which are being presented by you, as isolated cases and not reflecting the majority US population's attitudes. This in our native language is what is called முழுப்பூசணிக்காயெ சோத்தாலெ மறைக்கப்பார்க்கறது


Dear Shri Sangom sir, I have never denied that latent racism is still prevalent among the white population of U.S. So, I reject your முழுப்பூசணிக்காய் comment. If anything, this comment is appropriate for those who are unable to shed their caste identity and yet feel completely absolved of any responsibility for the all pervasive casteism wherever you go in India.

It is indeed as evident as the back of one's palm if only one cares to look. The video Happy posted is one example. While it is changing among the youth, no thanks to the older people, jAti is part of one's very identity in India, and how can we say it does not play a part in daily life. If one belongs to the higher caste, yes, one may not smell the stench of casteism, but ask a Dalit in a village where most Indians live about his day-to-day life. Ignoring this reality and claiming casteism does not affect people in their day-to-day life is indeed முழுப்பூசணிக்காயை சோத்துல மறைக்கப்பார்க்கறது.

Let me be clear, lest I am misunderstood or misquoted, racism is bad and must be confronted and challenged. Casteism is bad and must be confronted and challenged. We can do both at the same time, no need to choose only one.

I know and have said so often enough that Brahmins are not the only ones responsible for casteism. This is an Indian web site named TamilBrahmins. So it is immensely appropriate to talk about Indian casteism and the role of Brahmins in perpetuating. If you direct me to a site dedicated for Jats or Devars, or whoever, and if they will take me for a member, I will definitely speak out with as much force as I can muster against the atrocities the upper and middle castes commit. But I will not lay off speaking out against Brahminism and the Brahminists both B and NB who try to offer justifications and excuses. In parallel, I will also highlight incidences of racism in the U.S. if that is what you want to have balance. I will start a thread exclusively for it.

BTW, were you not the one who quoted SV, "There is an old superstition in Bengal that if the cobra that bites, sucks out his own poison from the patient, the man must survive. Well then, the Brahmin must suck out his own poison." to make the point that Brahmins must take their share of the responsibility seriously? Now, with your newly coined word, would you hold SV guilty of misobrahmany?

Coming to U.S. racism, I think it is similar and different from casteism in many ways. Slavery was a brutal, savage institution, and in this respect it is similar to casteism. However, there was also a strong abolitionist movement to end slavery and these white opponents of slavery did not mind even going to the gallows (John Brown) in their opposition, and in this respect it is different.

Even while slavery was practiced in the southern states, the blacks in the northern states enjoyed some degree of liberty and freedom to get educated and freely express opposing views. There were many imminent black leaders, particularly Frederick Douglas, who were able to fearlessly criticize the existing order. In India too we have had great leaders criticizing the existing order, like Ayothi Thas, and this is a similarity. But how many people know such persons existed? I did not learn of Ayothi Thas in school, I came to know of him only after I got interested in these issues. In contrast history of great Black leader of the past like Douglas, Harriet Tubman, and others is part of the required curriculum in all schools in the U.S.

After the civil war the U.S. government and other state governments established many universities for Black Americans to get advanced degrees, where as in India the Dalits were prevented from getting even school education. It was still segregated by race in U.S. (not any more), which is awful, but at least they were able to get highly educated and demand more justice. Contrast this with the video Happy posted that shows a case of a young girl forced to drop out of school out of fear. This is not atypical, or one off.

Let me cite one more poignant example that illustrates in what ways racism and casteism are both similar in some ways and different in others. This is about a brilliant Chemist Percy Lavon Julian, who happened to be black. Through sheer strength of character and perseverance he became one of the most preeminent and influential Chemists of his time. Many things we enjoy today can be traced to his work. Chicago Sun-Times, a white owned newspaper, named him Chicagoan of the Year in 1950. There are many such prominent blacks in every field of human endeavor. Can we name one Dalit who was ever accepted and recognized in this manner by the majority non-Dalits?

Yet, Dr. Julian suffered racism all his life. Harvard was racially segregated at that time and therefore he had to go to Europe to earn his Ph.D. In Chicago, a year after he was recognized as the Chicagoan of the year, when he moved into an affluent White neighborhood he received death threats, his house was fire bombed. This is a similarity with casteism no doubt. But the story does not end there.H is White neighbors were so outraged by the firebombing, they took out a march in support of Julian and his family. This is a difference. In India, even today people want agraharam and brahmin neighborhoods, Brahmin only flat system.

Today, in the U.S., racism, in the most part, is not a clear cut phenomenon like this pastor forbidding inter-racial marriage. Among the general public racism is more like an attitude towards poor racial minorities, harboring low opinions like they are lazy, they take advantage of the welfare system, they have criminal tendency, etc. Usually, if they come to know of a Black person well, then racism recedes and even goes away.

Anyway, it is my considered opinion that racism among the general public as it exists today in the U.S. is much more subtle and nuanced, and in this respect it is nothing like the casteism we see in India. The need in this forum is not criticism of racism, which will only be used by the Brahminists in this forum to justify their own casteism. The need in this forum is relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism.

Cheers!

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My remarks:

“ it is my considered opinion that racism among the general public as it exists today in the U.S. is much more subtle and nuanced, and in this respect it is nothing like the casteism we see in India. The need in this forum is not criticism of racism, which will only be used by the Brahminists in this forum to justify their own casteism. The need in this forum is relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism.”

Is this not clear admission that just on the basis of your subjective impression that racism in US is much more subtle and nuanced and it is nothing like the casteism in India, you decide that not much need be discussed about racism but all attention should go to casteism, which, for you is equivalent to brahmins and brahminism. You add “casteism we see in India” but here I see the casteism as not any different from the racism in US. And here is your clear admission that in this forum the need is "relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism". This is exactly the point of our difference.

I feel this is a website called tamilbrahmins.com and has the logo “Brahmin community spread across the entire globe”. Shri Praveen had expressed the objective that he wanted this site to be a repository for all information and knowledge about tamil Brahmins and Brahmins in general, their customs, rituals, mores etc. In such a background, I feel there must be some self-imposed control on the extent to which all of us should go on berating Brahmins, brahminism (?) and related aspects. Otherwise we will be doing a counterproductive exercise. I am for criticizing the undesirable aspects but that should be within reasonable limits and not the “relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism” and a parochial one at that which blinds the vision to the evils of racism in the country you live.

Epilogue:

Shri nara,

There are some more posts in this regard but I stop here since I feel all your doubts have been adequately answered to the best of my ability.

 

[kunjuppu]

My remarks:
This was a topic not at all related to the subject matter of this thread. I felt Shri kunjuppu, with all the familiarity and expertise he has about this forum, has deliberately brought this in here with twin objectives:
1. to deflect discussions away from US racism since it was becoming somewhat evident that there is a concerted effort to downplay racism, and,
2. to light the fuse of a casteist bomb.

I could have objected to this but I felt it is better to allow this and the further discussions which, I was sure, would end in Brahmins and anti-brahminism, etc., to remain as indirect evidence for people to think and draw their own conclusions.

dear sangom,

first time i ams seeing this. i only wish to say that i have no ulterior or superior motives for whatever i write. i wriet as i feel and whatever comes to my head.

re this usa racism thread, now going through, i notice you have quoted me a couple of times. i do not wish to be part of this discussion, only because 'racsism casteism' are each one's perception.

sometimes people agree. other times disagree. i think it is a big waste of time and energy, to go into elaborate discussion, either to justify one's stand, or knock someone else's viewpoint.

in this particular subject, i ahve neither the interest nor the energy to indulge in any deep discussion.

hope you dont mind. thank you.

 

[sarang]

Let US worry about racism in USA. They are wise enough to handle this. And USA must not interfere in indian policies, way of life and culture.

 

[Yamaka]

Dear Sangom Sir:

My response in bold letters below for your post 35:

"Dear Shri Yamaka,

What I find in post after post from people living in US is the chant that there is no "overt" racism. I believe that this arises from the fact that the "overt" racism, when it existed, was so blatant and / or cruel that the small change over to "covert" racism appears as though heaven has come down.

I disagree. It is not "small change" you see since 1960s. It's a sea-change in American Society.

My position in the matter is that though the end of "overt" racism might be allowing the asian and other job-immigrants to live without much of a disadvantage, yet, the danger always looms and one may not rule out the possibility that the next racist's car mows down one of the indians or his near and dear relation, lifeless. It will then be difficult for the affected person to shrug it off saying, "this is an isolated, stray, case; the majority of US people are not overtly racist; and the majority does not tolerate overt racism, etc."

I disagree. You are unnecessarily over-reacting to a few minor stray incidents, I am afraid.

It appears strange to me that one feels much about the cruelty perpetrated on the indian Dalits by the forefathers of present day brahmins but is unable or unwilling to enlarge the same empathy to victims of the stray cases of overt racism as also covert racism (which goes on even today and there is more than enough admissions by various people and even indirectly by the US govt. departments) and there is no need to guess endlessly about it.

Just as a token, the following may be relevant:

unemployment which is rampant now seems to affect the blacks more than the white; more AA are laid off than whites. This is supported by the following observation in the Employment situation summary for Nov 2011 released by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

In November, the unemployment rate declined by 0.4 percentage point
to8.6 percent. From April through October, the rate held in a narrow
range from 9.0 to 9.2 percent. The number of unemployed persons,
at 13.3 million, was down by 594,000 in November. The labor force,
which is the sum of the unemployed and employed, was down by a little
more than half that amount. (See table A-1.)

Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men fell
by 0.5 percentage point to 8.3 percent in November. The jobless rate for
whites (7.6 percent) also declined, while the rates for adult women
(7.8 percent), teenagers (23.7 percent), blacks (15.5 percent), and
Hispanics (11.4 percent) showed little or no change. The jobless rate for
Asians was 6.5 percent, not seasonally adjusted.
(See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)

The present Deep Recession affected those in Housing/Construction, Home Financing and Banking the most. Whoever worked there were affected, irrespective of race, ethnicity or gender. I don't think you can use the above data to say anything about Racism in the US.. you are trying to pull a mountain with a mustache!

2. We live in the Age of Obama and Cain. As indicated in post 22, Herman Cain - a Black man from the Deep South - was a promising Presidential Nominee in the conservative Republican Party.

Can you please give me some examples of Obama and Cain in Indian politics?

It has taken 235 years for US to produce one Obama and half (?Unsure of his candidature) Cain. So, kindly wait for at least another 23.5 years. We had Jagjivan Ram and now Mayawati; so we are not that backward, LOL

Sir, I don't know how you arrived at the 23.5 years? For a eminent historian like yourself, I want to remind you that in 1776, American colonies were a weak economy struggling and limping, unlike the mighty majestic India at the waning hours of the Mughal Empire, when the British came to loot it.

Today I take a bet, no Dalit will be declared as the Prime Minister candidate for the next General Election by any Party and win that Election, EVER...serendipitously, a Jagjivan Ram or a Mayawati can become a Second Fiddle in the Power Corridors of India, but not the Prime Minister.

Your reaction to the emergence of Obama and Herman Cain is very deplorable. This happened because of the sea-change happening in the US: Herman Cain, till very recently was supported by most Iowans who set the tone for the ensuing Primary battle in the conservative Republican Party.. this is historically a landmark, IMO. Unfortunately, because of his own behavior and self-inflicted wounds, he has "suspended" in quest for the US Presidency... very sad.


3. I really don't want to compare the economies of the US and India. The real comparison should be between India and China - the developing countries; US and Japan/Germany/Britain - fully developed countries.

When I compare India and China - One has multi-Party Democracy Vs Single Party Autocracy:

India's per capita GDP is about a Third of China. India has about 1000 million poor people making less than U$2 a day, while China has about 450 millions of poor making such low wages a day. China spends about U$35 billions a year on social services for the poor; India's spending (about U$30 billions a year) reaching the poor is very very poor - mostly it is looted by the intermediaries like politicians.

One interesting thing I got from my Chinese friends here: The Chinese in rural areas have better life in terms of education, health and standard of life than Indians. I attribute this to the views of Chairman Mao, who loved the rural China better than the urban people.

Both countries have corruption: In India it is everywhere and anywhere, in China it is mostly restricted to the 80 million CCP members and the State run companies and banks.

Of course, there are people who will not buy any statistics that China publishes... still I believe China is winning with its Single Party Autocracy over India.. this could irritate lot of Nationalists in India, I concede.


The topic here is US racism and indian casteism. so this is non-sequitur.


4. You have used Astrology (in a different Thread) to predict that China and India taking over the world in 2025.

I totally disagree. By 2025, US and the West will be some place else in the road of progress. No one will stay stagnant.


Many nations and civilizations have disappeared though the land area still remains to help feed archaeologists, I suppose. I have not said China and India "taking over the world". I have been saying China will be the only superpower and it may attack india to widen its borders.

Sir, please tell me, from your astrology, how China will become a Superpower in 2025? By per capita GDP and/or by the amount of money spent on military or what? Please remember, today US is called an economic and military Superpower because she spends about U$650 billions a year on military from an economy of U$15 trillions produced by a very skilled labor force of 145 million workers. Do you really believe that China's third rate work force can pull this off in 2025? Wait & watch, you will be sorely disappointed.

Progress is not endless; actually nothing in this world is. many golden roads are strewn with bombs, so to say. But optimism is good and if you have the good luck of another 15 years you will be able to see what that "some place else" is. No one can stay stagnant, in fact nothing can; perishing is also one of nature's chosen methods to avoid stagnation. As a believer in nature yourself, I am sure you will agree.


5. You believe that Casteism in India is not that bad as some of us feel. I really wish you are correct.


we have not yet clearly defined what we intend by saying casteism.

Dear Sangom Sir: In this Forum, you are the Historian Par Excellence of history, culture, religion and caste system in India... and for some tactical reason you don't want to define casteism here, now! Why? Which is, in my view, is the Belief and Discriminatory practices of the Pyramidal Caste Hierarchy in Hinduism in India. The people at the top of the Hierarchy are the Priestly Brahmins and the people at the bottom of it are the Dalits, others are distributed, all by birth, in between.

Now, please compare and contrast the "overt and covert" Casteism in India and Racism in the US. I stand by my original statement that since 1960s there is NO overt Racism in the US. There is no Structural Impediment for anyone to climb up the ladder of Opportunity for a good life.. but Equal Opportunity may not mean Equal Outcome... for example, Blacks excel in Sports and Music very disproportionately to their number... Latinos are dominant in Construction and Agriculture, and Indias excel in Academia... all this difference will NOT say any built-in Racism.... I call it Preference by different sections of the Society to different professions, which can easily change from generation to generation.

Not all students can become Rhodes... many students don't even know what it is and what it means! It's their CHOICE.. there are very many other awards like Marshall, Truman etc etc. People fly in many different color suits... their CHOICE.

6. Most of us (about 86% of Americans, including Indian, Chinese Americans) enjoy a wholesome prosperous life in the US because of hard work, planning and some luck. Perhaps, serrendipitously, about 4% of people (about 50 millions) in India live as well as most Americans.


What is the relevance? As someone said, one should always ensure that he/she is not the 87th. to 100th. person going to US

Please believe me, there is no overt Racism in the US these days. You may guess endlessly about the covert Racism!

Then, you need to think about the covert Castesim among the progressive Indians also!

Again, depends on how we define casteism.


Let's keep talking... I am not interested in "closing any problem" here or elsewhere.

Cheers.




Sure, please."

Thanks for your nice post.

Regards.

 

[prasad1]

Let US worry about racism in USA. They are wise enough to handle this. And USA must not interfere in indian policies, way of life and culture.

Sir Sarang,
I agree with your sentiment, but like Mr. Sangom and I have been saying discrimination in private can not be eliminated in any part of the world. If there is any overt discrimination is there it is in INDIA. Officially sanctioned by QUOTA system and Caste based hiring and promotional practice in Government.

Which very conveniently is accepted by Mr.... & Ms ???? ?????, because it is to their advantage. These opportunist are not for ending discrimination, they would like to perpetuate it. At the sane time railing against a section of Indian. Bring shame to all Indians by posting isolated incidents in an open forum. I bet their aim is to Shame India, and Indians as they are alienated from their country of birth.


If you live in a democracy you must accept that people with the most vote should win. So then you can not claim that a Dalit must be the prime minister in India, or a Hindu must be a prime minister in Pakistan, or A pio must be prime minister in England. It is shame that people write such nonsense in their post.

 

[Yamaka]

Let US worry about racism in USA. They are wise enough to handle this. And USA must not interfere in indian policies, way of life and culture.

No Man Is An Island.. this Forum has nearly 50% of the members living outside India, mostly in the US/Canada.

Writing about US and India is quite appropriate... and comparing and contrasting the vile and venality of Casteism and Racism is needed to take stock of the progress we, as a humanity, have made so for.

If you are open-minded actively participate...If not, just read, and need not participate! Your CHOICE!!!

Cheers.

 

[kunjuppu]

...Which very conveniently is accepted by Mr.... & Ms ???? ?????, because it is to their advantage. These opportunist are not for ending discrimination, they would like to perpetuate it. At the sane time railing against a section of Indian. Bring shame to all Indians by posting isolated incidents in an open forum. I bet their aim is to Shame India, and Indians as they are alienated from their country of birth.
.

dear prasad,

you have not answered me. you seem to know who those vile beasts wg here liek quislings, enjoying our knowledge, breathing our air and yet working against us.

i will use my influence with praveen to have those rascals thrown out. just name them and give the reasons why you think those are infamies...

i will join you too in this crusade.

thank you.

 

[prasad1]

02-12-2011, 09:44 PM #121


I feel this is a website called tamilbrahmins.com and has the logo “Brahmin community spread across the entire globe”. Shri Praveen had expressed the objective that he wanted this site to be a repository for all information and knowledge about tamil Brahmins and Brahmins in general, their customs, rituals, mores etc. In such a background, I feel there must be some self-imposed control on the extent to which all of us should go on berating Brahmins, brahminism (?) and related aspects. Otherwise we will be doing a counterproductive exercise. I am for criticizing the undesirable aspects but that should be within reasonable limits and not the “relentless criticism of Brahminism/casteism” and a parochial one at that which blinds the vision to the evils of racism in the country you live.

This is the perception of most of the people who join this site. I also feel that we have an obligation to uplift the the community, India, and Indians. The nay Sayers have only one purpose in their posting, to shame India, Indians, Hindus, and particularly Brahmins. I will venture out and say that they hate themselves and want others to feel that way.

 

[kunjuppu]

I just got a nasty private message which in the interest of maintaining the forum’s decorum, regretfully I will not share with the public.

But I think, some explanation from me may be in order.

The Toronto globe and mail, is a very world class respected paper – same as our TOI, Statesman or the Hindu (though some might say that the Hindu has now gone to dogs).

India is getting a lot of attention outside as one of the BRIC countries which has come out unscathed from the recent western financial crisis, which still might sink the euro and drag down western Europe and usa along with it.

But one cannot be a world player, and hide itself within a bushel, especially its darker side. For it is the nature of the world to ferret out as much of stuff, especially in case of denials or attempt to hide stuff.

The biggest critics of slavery and AA discrimination have been the Americans themselves, and to many it is a point of shame. societies that conduct honest soul searcing and introspection, ultimately come out stronger and with cleaner conscience than those that deny its warts and all. history has proven this over and over again. post war western germany came to grips with the evils of nazism. today it is a world power. the ussr denied the atrocities of stalin. today the ussr is not even on the map.

I think, it may not be a bad idea, for us, as one of the elite communities of india, to spend sometime retrospecting the effect of caste and dalits. People outside india are looking at us with critical eyes. A while ago the dalits wanted UN to declare their treatment over the millenniums, as a crime against humanity, or some such thing. Recently the dalits in UK were almost successful in getting a law passed, which equates casteism the same as racism.

Our own constitution and every government since then, has recognized the how much of a mental handicap institutionalized discrimination can be. It warps the mind of both – the victim and the perpetrator.

Today, we tambrams, are at the receiving end of this stick. We are literally outcasted in tamil nadu from all government and social policy making. To make ourselves inclusive, I think, would require some soul searching, and perhaps coming up with a plan of action. To just blame the others for our plight, is neither an effective method to show how smart or intelligent we are. It is more an admission of failure – of our political and social elite, to come up to making the community aware of the past, and hopefully promoting an image of a reformed Brahmin. I call this good PR, for I truly believe, much as we may quarrel here, none of us would wish to go back to the past and its history of ‘othippO’ practice.

it is also sad, that the government with so much money to spare, does ot have the mindset to spend a few lakhs on our own poor. for in reality poverty knows no caste or creed. there may be 15% poor tambrams, but the rest 85% have a moral obligation to secure funds or means of helping these immediately and quickly. not penning grandoise plans which will never take off.

you see, the wheel has turned a full circle, and while most of us have got off scot free, there are always some of us, left behind, and are facing the wrath of ancient memories of discrimination. the new generation of educated dalits or shudras have no love lost for us. why should they?

The articles in Toronto globe, are going to be many and looking deeply at our social structure. They are produced by journalists and academics, whose work will stand scrutiny. These are online articles and folks here should comment on these articles, should they be proved to be false or straying from the truth. Factual reporting sometimes hurts, but truth does always. does it not?

providing links here to the globe articels, is, i think, no way shaming india or brahmins. it is better, i think, to be aware of how the world views us. for knowledge is power. we can reform ourselves of the faults found, or prove them to be untrue. i think the two globe articles on dalits is true. i trust the honesty of that newspaper, atleast to the veracity of the said articles.

thank you.

 

[Nara]

This one is reverse discrimination -- Racism in America: Episode Two - YouTube

Nice to see people making such clipshots and addressing the racism issue in an open way, acknowledged by both sides, with some humor in it....

Happy, this is some real nice ones, hilarious. These video clips show the kind of direct racism most black people experience. Even though these are presented with humor, this kind of insidious racism is not so innocent in real life situations.

Another comedian who made fun of white racism towards blacks as well as black behavior that encourages some ugly stereotyping is Dave Chappelle, a comic genius.

Cheers!

 

[Nara]

Who is the racist in this one?

The Blind Date - YouTube

 

[Nara]

From Hindu: The Hindu : States / Tamil Nadu :.

There are couple of salient points to note:

[1] "Since talks between two groups had failed with caste Hindus objecting to the demolition and Dalits demanding it, there was threat of a law and order problem.

[2] "This is the third wall symbolising social ostracisation that has been demolished in Salem district within a span of two months. "

​

Contrast this news item with the inter-racial ban by the Kentucky pastor that was roundly criticized by everyone and the Church itself was shamed into reversing the ban.

 

[KRS]

I do not understand the discussions here.

Racism, by definition is different from Casteism. The former is one set of RACE having prejudice against a different set of people from another RACE. This has been practiced from ancient times and very ingrained in an undeveloped human nature which attaches differences in the way of looks, be it skin, hair and eye colors; and culture and religion. People who have suffered tremendously under this prejudice in recent times are clearly the blacks and the jews.

And then there is prejudice based on castes. This is prejudice generated not towards outsiders, but towards some members of one's own race and community. Now, this probably did not start on differences based on skin color etc., but rather on one's inherited societal job. As such, this is a wholly different animal in it's ugliness as measured by today's societal mores and norms.

Racism is one dimensional. Casteism is multi dimensional. Racism can be easily dealt with as against morality based on human equality. Casteism can not be that easily dealt with because it is based on human inequality to begin with.

Comparing these two are like comparing apples and oranges.

Sri Sangom Ji's arguments remind me of my late uncle. When my Jewish wife talked to him about Judaism, he would not hear of her experience as a jew; he was telling her that she was wrong, because his friend and the newspapers presented different opinions from hers about the jewish condition!

Let us understand that we can not connect and compare the human condition in USA with that of India. The only thing we can agree on is that both countries bear different burdens, with uniquely different solutions required to solve the respective issues. In this game, no one can really pick a winner, because there can not be a competition to start with.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. K.R.S,
Namaste ray2:

I am elated to see you back in the Forum. :happy:

I had been considering sending a P.M. to find out your welfare.:decision:

Yes, the comparison between Apples and Oranges never seem to end.

But the whether it is Racism or Cast-ism... it dwells and develops in the differences and overlooks the similarities among men.

A very sad state of affairs indeed!

I am reminded of the quotation:

"Man has enough religions to teach him to hate and
not one to teach him to love".

The word Religion can be replaced by many other similar words and still make good sense.:tsk:

I hope to see you more often in the Forum,

with warm regards,
Mrs. V. R.