Racism in the U.S.

[Nara]

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...So overall a better setup and a more efficient administrative mechanism is bound to give a greater comfort feeling. This is why many people including the dalits look upto USA and feel that situation of blacks is much better than in India.

Dear subbudu, you make very good points. This is precisely the reason I have been arguing that we must not look at these as competing problems, like, go take care of American racism, stop criticizing Brahminism. As they say, we can chew gum and walk at the same time.

There are many problems that must be addressed simultaneously. One is no more or no less serious to the person suffering discrimination, be it racial or castiest. There are so many atrocities that are committed all over the world. Whether it is the plight of the poor Eastern European women who get human-trafficked, or the Sri Lankan Tamils suffering genocide, or the the Obama administration's notion that the entire world is a battle field in the war on so called terrorism and therefore they can do whatever they want, anywhere they want, all these must all be opposed. I reject the notion that Brahminism alone must be given a pass.

I have no simple solution to these problems except to say, let us keep talking about it, let us try to move the ball forward in whatever way we can, everywhere. Solidarity among the oppressed is vital, and any attempt to divide the oppressed must be resisted.

Cheers!

 

[subbudu1]

Dear subbudu, you make very good points. This is precisely the reason I have been arguing that we must not look at these as competing problems, like, go take care of American racism, stop criticizing Brahminism. As they say, we can chew gum and walk at the same time.

There are many problems that must be addressed simultaneously. One is no more or no less serious to the person suffering discrimination, be it racial or castiest. There are so many atrocities that are committed all over the world. Whether it is the plight of the poor Eastern European women who get human-trafficked, or the Sri Lankan Tamils suffering genocide, or the the Obama administration's notion that the entire world is a battle field in the war on so called terrorism and therefore they can do whatever they want, anywhere they want, all these must all be opposed. I reject the notion that Brahminism alone must be given a pass.

I have no simple solution to these problems except to say, let us keep talking about it, let us try to move the ball forward in whatever way we can, everywhere. Solidarity among the oppressed is vital, and any attempt to divide the oppressed must be resisted.

Cheers!

I have one problem you know Nara, there is a difficulty in our system, and it is one thing that using NGO and rallies to put pressure on society and Government and create awareness within India. There is a different thing which leads to a diplomatic crisis. Some of these organization setup rallies in the west and seek international intervention as though that would help. The root cause needs to be addressed at the ground level. I do not think there is a policy in India against the dalits. It is then that Indians have to ask the track record of some of the busy body countries like USA.

 

[Nara]

.... It is then that Indians have to ask the track record of some of the busy body countries like USA.

Yes, I agree, especially when the State Department does this with its annual report on religious freedom etc., when in America itself there is so many problems needing attention. The recent right-wing opposition to Mosques, to the extent of fire-bombing Mosques, and the attempts to outlaw Sharia, as though that is a real threat, are cases in point. The xenophobic laws against undocumented immigrants is another important issue that cries out for fair solution. These are much more serious and relevant issues than some stupid deranged teenager committing murder motivated by racial hatred that even closet racists will condemn freely.

I am less concerned with NGOs though, as long as they are not government proxies. Independent NGOs that work with local groups for the true betterment of oppressed, I am in support of.

regards ....

 

[Yamaka]

I have deleted my whole post, so you can also make the changes.

Regards

Hello Brahin:

Thanks - I appreciate it. I have made changes in my post.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

Shri subbudu, Shri nara,

Originally posted by subbudu1 here

I meant to say that the below 3 points which I mentioned were different and cannot all be viewed in the same way.

The three items you refer to are—
1. racism
2. state policies towards some sections of the population
3. smart peope can con others and benefit, but these will be forgotten in due
course of time. (hence I take it that you mean such
exploitation by smart - read white, in the context of racism - people on the
non-whites should not be considered unnatural or as a crime.)

I cannot still understand as to how these are distinct and unrelated in the context of america (or any other country) and why these three cannot be viewed as depravities of a barbaric society, just as murder, rape and cheating are considered in the same way, that is, as criminal acts, though those actions by themselves are not similar.

Originally posted by subbudu1 here

I agree that this is true, and when it crosses its limit it is atrocious. But Sangom we may certainly find equal number of incidents against the Dalits today if not more, do you not agree? The good part is once a dalit is out of his native territory he is not a dalit anymore. I have heard dalits proclaiming to their neighbors that they are mudaliars. Something that makes them feel good. But such things get caught when you know they get an admission letter from a college inspite of their rank being low.

India has a population of more than 120 crores, four times that of US but a land area one-third that of the US and so, the population density is 11 times greater than that of US. The poverty line in India is currently not based on income alone but the poverty line of US at more than $20,000 for a four-person family will be much higher than India's BPL, imo.

Because of crowding (higher population density), poverty and the disparities in general economic development between US and India, there is likely to be more number of incidents against Dalits. And, much slave labour has gone into all those highways and other symbols of progress. Since you yourself say, "The good part is once a dalit is out of his native territory he is not a dalit anymore.", I think you will agree that Dalits have today the chance of getting adequately qualified as to emigrate to US. (I presume that your subsequent statement, "I have heard dalits proclaiming to their neighbors that they are mudaliars. Something that makes them feel good. But such things get caught when you know they get an admission letter from a college inspite of their rank being low.", refers to India and not those in US.)

Originally posted by subbudu1 here

The incident you have quoted is the third category which I think is frequent in India as well, especially against dalits.

So is our society more responsible than americans in terms of treating our low castes, I am afraid, I cannot sleep well on that issue.

subbudu, I have not come across any case in India of some NB youth drinking in the local toddy/arrack shop, getting a high and then just for the fun of it, going to the town and killing a Dalit. If you know of any such incident in the past, kindly post the details here, so everyone will know.

America declared independence in 1776, more than 235 years ago. Even granting that those white people were steeped in their medieval, barabaric ethos, and would not change for the better, it took another 90 years for them to fight a bloody civil war for four years to just make a paper declaration ending slavery by the thirteenth amendment. But segregation and many other forms of discrimination continued even as late as the 1930's and continues even today in subtle forms.

I do not know whether you have spent considerable time in US or UK or some other country. But if only you or someone dear to you, had been affected by one of the "third category incidents" cited, then I do not know what your views on racism would now have been. (I am reminded of Shri Kunjuppu's remarks on how tabras' views on inter-caste marriages change with one 'happening' in their children!)

Yourself as also others like nara, yamaka, et al., who seem to exert here to close the discussion about racism, may like to be apologists for racism because you have/had good life in US quite serendipitously, but if you consider racial discrimination as something which can affect any non-white (and not only someone who is having patently black skin) - and that includes indians also, based on the way you talk, facial features, etc., also, perhaps you will become aware of the real horror that is racism. I know of a case in which one of our H1B visa holder whose car was just dashed on to and made scrap of, by a white girl; the police booked him for the accident and despite all his best efforts and prayers to many gods, he could not convince anyone that the fault was not his. I think he had to pay a very heavy fine or serve some sentence, but did not raise the topic with his parents. I think he had to finally return to India.

Compared to that plague of racial biases permeating the society, the caste-based inequalities and "incidents" like the two-tumbler system, are like common cold, imo. And I think India is steadily progressing in the path of eradicating caste-based inequalities and the correct thing for us will be to compare India of 50 years from now (112 years after Independence) with US of today. Perhaps then both India and US will rank equally; look at what Miss Condoleezza Rice, Former US Secretary of State has said 15-11-2011—

“[Though America has] gotten to a place [where] race is not the limiting factor that it once was, we're never going to erase race as a factor in American life. It is a birth defect with which this country was born out of slavery; we’re never really going to be race-blind.” (CBS News)

Perhaps we will be able to "sleep well" knowing that even US is not likely to get completely get itself rid of racism. But those who can't but sing paeans about US may argue it is all covert racism.

I am fully aware that each of us can have our own views about different topics and freely express those in this forum. Hence it is your choice to view racism as of no consequence in the US (govt. takes care, attitude) and that casteism in India is a horrible pandemic which can be cured by incessantly criticising brahmins in this web forum. But I cannot toe that line and be an apologist for racism in the US and other western countries.

 

[happyhindu]

One more instance of unbelievable cruelty perpetrated on the Black population of US, in the name of Medical Research, is given below in some detail. Kindly note how it has caused loss of trust of the Black population in the white people. Our friends here may say this is not racism but why only the AA population was deliberately selected?

Brahminism and casteism in India do not appear to have thought of anything as diabolical as this. Perhaps our Dalit population should consider itself lucky to have been in India and not in the US!

Are you saying dalits ARE afro-americans?

Well, i suppose, some 'brahmins' never cease to insult people over castes even thru comparison with afro-americans. So this is tacit acceptance that dalits are "blacks".

 

[Nara]

Dear Shri Sangom sir, we all have our opinions and are free to express them. But you have made some disparaging comments about me. I want to challenge you to put up some evidence for them.

....
Yourself as also others like nara, yamaka, et al., who seem to exert here to close the discussion about racism,..

In as much as I have repeatedly welcomed discussion of U.S. racism, and have started this thread for the very purpose, you continuing to express this view that somehow I want to close the discussion about racism, albeit with the caveat "seem" is deplorable. Using the same "seem" caveat, and with due respects, I think you repeating this canard seem to be dishonest.

may like to be apologists for racism because you have/had good life in US quite serendipitously,

This is another uncalled for nasty speculation. I challenge you to cite anything I have said that can be construed as offering justification of racism. The reason you give, "because you have/had good life in US" is downright sickening. I request you to refrain from making such baseless allegations.

... Hence it is your choice to view racism as of no consequence in the US (govt. takes care, attitude)

One more baseless comment. I am really sorry you are doing this. I have no problem if you think racism in the U.S. is much worse than casteism in India, that is obviously your prerogative, but if you want to cast aspersions like the ones you have made in this post, then I have to demand you put up some evidence. Or else, all these personal stuff from you is no more than hot air.

Thank you ....

 

[Yamaka]

"Yourself as also others like nara, yamaka, et al., who seem to exert here to close the discussion about racism, may like to be apologists for racism because you have/had good life in US quite serendipitously..." Sangom, post 30.

Dear Sangom:

1. Please read my posts 4, 21, 22. I maintain the view that since 1960s overt racism is largely absent in the US, except a few fringe cases in the South like TX and Mississipi.

I agree prior to 1960, things were horrible; but people have learnt the lessons and the Winds of Positive Change is blowing hard in the New World.

2. We live in the Age of Obama and Cain. As indicated in post 22, Herman Cain - a Black man from the Deep South - was a promising Presidential Nominee in the conservative Republican Party.

Can you please give me some examples of Obama and Cain in Indian politics?

3. I really don't want to compare the economies of the US and India. The real comparison should be between India and China - the developing countries; US and Japan/Germany/Britain - fully developed countries.

When I compare India and China - One has multi-Party Democracy Vs Single Party Autocracy:

India's per capita GDP is about a Third of China. India has about 1000 million poor people making less than U$2 a day, while China has about 450 millions of poor making such low wages a day. China spends about U$35 billions a year on social services for the poor; India's spending (about U$30 billions a year) reaching the poor is very very poor - mostly it is looted by the intermediaries like politicians.

One interesting thing I got from my Chinese friends here: The Chinese in rural areas have better life in terms of education, health and standard of life than Indians. I attribute this to the views of Chairman Mao, who loved the rural China better than the urban people.

Both countries have corruption: In India it is everywhere and anywhere, in China it is mostly restricted to the 80 million CCP members and the State run companies and banks.

Of course, there are people who will not buy any statistics that China publishes... still I believe China is winning with its Single Party Autocracy over India.. this could irritate lot of Nationalists in India, I concede.

4. You have used Astrology (in a different Thread) to predict that China and India taking over the world in 2025.

I totally disagree. By 2025, US and the West will be some place else in the road of progress. No one will stay stagnant.

5. You believe that Casteism in India is not that bad as some of us feel. I really wish you are correct.

6. Most of us (about 86% of Americans, including Indian, Chinese Americans) enjoy a wholesome prosperous life in the US because of hard work, planning and some luck. Perhaps, serrendipitously, about 4% of people (about 50 millions) in India live as well as most Americans.

Many times I have felt guilty that I left Ramanathapuram or Madurai without serving the people over there!

But my regular remittance to my relatives there will somehow compensate for the putative "loss", I hope.

Please believe me, there is no overt Racism in the US these days. You may guess endlessly about the covert Racism!

Then, you need to think about the covert Castesim among the progressive Indians also!

Let's keep talking... I am not interested in "closing any problem" here or elsewhere.

Cheers.

 

[nachi naga]

actions speak louder than words.finally after 235 years of independance a bi-racial president was elected and could very well win the second term as well.this i think a plus point in american politics.if any one tells me that there is no casteism in india or rascism in west,plz quit being delusional asap.thank you.

 

[sangom]

"Yourself as also others like nara, yamaka, et al., who seem to exert here to close the discussion about racism, may like to be apologists for racism because you have/had good life in US quite serendipitously..." Sangom, post 30.

Dear Sangom:

1. Please read my posts 4, 21, 22. I maintain the view that since 1960s overt racism is largely absent in the US, except a few fringe cases in the South like TX and Mississipi.

I agree prior to 1960, things were horrible; but people have learnt the lessons and the Winds of Positive Change is blowing hard in the New World.

Dear Shri Yamaka,

What I find in post after post from people living in US is the chant that there is no "overt" racism. I believe that this arises from the fact that the "overt" racism, when it existed, was so blatant and / or cruel that the small change over to "covert" racism appears as though heaven has come down.

My position in the matter is that though the end of "overt" racism might be allowing the asian and other job-immigrants to live without much of a disadvantage, yet, the danger always looms and one may not rule out the possibility that the next racist's car mows down one of the indians or his near and dear relation, lifeless. It will then be difficult for the affected person to shrug it off saying, "this is an isolated, stray, case; the majority of US people are not overtly racist; and the majority does not tolerate overt racism, etc."

It appears strange to me that one feels much about the cruelty perpetrated on the indian Dalits by the forefathers of present day brahmins but is unable or unwilling to enlarge the same empathy to victims of the stray cases of overt racism as also covert racism (which goes on even today and there is more than enough admissions by various people and even indirectly by the US govt. departments) and there is no need to guess endlessly about it.

Just as a token, the following may be relevant:

[h=2]unemployment which is rampant now seems to affect the blacks more than the white; more AA are laid off than whites. This is supported by the following observation in the Employment situation summary for Nov 2011 released by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics[/h]
In November, the unemployment rate declined by 0.4 percentage point
to8.6 percent. From April through October, the rate held in a narrow
range from 9.0 to 9.2 percent. The number of unemployed persons,
at 13.3 million, was down by 594,000 in November. The labor force,
which is the sum of the unemployed and employed, was down by a little
more than half that amount. (See table A-1.)

Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men fell
by 0.5 percentage point to 8.3 percent in November. The jobless rate for
whites (7.6 percent) also declined, while the rates for adult women
(7.8 percent), teenagers (23.7 percent), blacks (15.5 percent), and
Hispanics (11.4 percent) showed little or no change. The jobless rate for
Asians was 6.5 percent, not seasonally adjusted.
(See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)

2. We live in the Age of Obama and Cain. As indicated in post 22, Herman Cain - a Black man from the Deep South - was a promising Presidential Nominee in the conservative Republican Party.

Can you please give me some examples of Obama and Cain in Indian politics?

It has taken 235 years for US to produce one Obama and half (?Unsure of his candidature) Cain. So, kindly wait for at least another 23.5 years. We had Jagjivan Ram and now Mayawati; so we are not that backward, LOL

3. I really don't want to compare the economies of the US and India. The real comparison should be between India and China - the developing countries; US and Japan/Germany/Britain - fully developed countries.

When I compare India and China - One has multi-Party Democracy Vs Single Party Autocracy:

India's per capita GDP is about a Third of China. India has about 1000 million poor people making less than U$2 a day, while China has about 450 millions of poor making such low wages a day. China spends about U$35 billions a year on social services for the poor; India's spending (about U$30 billions a year) reaching the poor is very very poor - mostly it is looted by the intermediaries like politicians.

One interesting thing I got from my Chinese friends here: The Chinese in rural areas have better life in terms of education, health and standard of life than Indians. I attribute this to the views of Chairman Mao, who loved the rural China better than the urban people.

Both countries have corruption: In India it is everywhere and anywhere, in China it is mostly restricted to the 80 million CCP members and the State run companies and banks.

Of course, there are people who will not buy any statistics that China publishes... still I believe China is winning with its Single Party Autocracy over India.. this could irritate lot of Nationalists in India, I concede.

The topic here is US racism and indian casteism. so this is non-sequitur.

4. You have used Astrology (in a different Thread) to predict that China and India taking over the world in 2025.

I totally disagree. By 2025, US and the West will be some place else in the road of progress. No one will stay stagnant.

Many nations and civilizations have disappeared though the land area still remains to help feed archaeologists, I suppose. I have not said China and India "taking over the world". I have been saying China will be the only superpower and it may attack india to widen its borders.

Progress is not endless; actually nothing in this world is. many golden roads are strewn with bombs, so to say. But optimism is good and if you have the good luck of another 15 years you will be able to see what that "some place else" is. No one can stay stagnant, in fact nothing can; perishing is also one of nature's chosen methods to avoid stagnation. As a believer in nature yourself, I am sure you will agree.

5. You believe that Casteism in India is not that bad as some of us feel. I really wish you are correct.

we have not yet clearly defined what we intend by saying casteism.

6. Most of us (about 86% of Americans, including Indian, Chinese Americans) enjoy a wholesome prosperous life in the US because of hard work, planning and some luck. Perhaps, serrendipitously, about 4% of people (about 50 millions) in India live as well as most Americans.

What is the relevance? As someone said, one should always ensure that he/she is not the 87th. to 100th. person going to US

Please believe me, there is no overt Racism in the US these days. You may guess endlessly about the covert Racism!

Then, you need to think about the covert Castesim among the progressive Indians also!

Again, depends on how we define casteism.

Let's keep talking... I am not interested in "closing any problem" here or elsewhere.

Cheers.

Sure, please.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Sangom sir, we all have our opinions and are free to express them. But you have made some disparaging comments about me. I want to challenge you to put up some evidence for them.

In as much as I have repeatedly welcomed discussion of U.S. racism, and have started this thread for the very purpose, you continuing to express this view that somehow I want to close the discussion about racism, albeit with the caveat "seem" is deplorable. Using the same "seem" caveat, and with due respects, I think you repeating this canard seem to be dishonest.

This is another uncalled for nasty speculation. I challenge you to cite anything I have said that can be construed as offering justification of racism. The reason you give, "because you have/had good life in US" is downright sickening. I request you to refrain from making such baseless allegations.

One more baseless comment. I am really sorry you are doing this. I have no problem if you think racism in the U.S. is much worse than casteism in India, that is obviously your prerogative, but if you want to cast aspersions like the ones you have made in this post, then I have to demand you put up some evidence. Or else, all these personal stuff from you is no more than hot air.

Thank you ....

Dear Shri nara,

I am trying to give below, in some detail, the various relevant posts in the two threads, “Discrimination:can it be stopped” and “Racism in the US”. It is somewhat long because I have tried to give the developments as they took place, to the best of my ability and according to how I understood each one of the posts and/or portions thereof.

My only purpose in so doing is to not appear as though I had no answers to the comments made above by you; you may or may not be convinced about these or by my arguments/remarks.



30-11-2011, 03:10 AM #1

prasad1
Discrimination - can it be stopped?

According to UN:Understanding Discrimination - print

Your birth, religion, race, height, nationality, language, education, money and even your gender are factors that most people make quick judgments about. Unfortunately, many of these judgments are based on biases and assumptions.

Can we eliminate or should we even try to eliminate discrimination? I do not think it is possible.

The discrimination outlawed by the country and some other birth based discrimination should be stopped.

The society should change through education and economics.

In US social discrimination goes on, forced integration is very difficult. The middle class runs from poor neighborhood. Even in Football teams the black players and white players do not integrate.

There is strong enforcement of laws against discrimination based on race, color, gender, or disability in housing, jobs etc.

30-11-2011, 05:11 AM #2
kunjuppu

prasad,

are we not defined by our sense of discrimination. i mean the word in a 'meaning neutral' term.

we discriminate against somebody, something, some ideas, peoples, religions.

same way, we discriminate or prejudiced for somebody, something, some ideas, peoples, religions.

that is what makes us humans. even the goodest of people hate. they hate the bad, dont they?

so what you are demand, is unreasonable.

n'est pas?

My comments
This, coming from Shri Kunjuppu, soon after, and as the first response to the OP, appeared (and still continues to appear) as a defence of discrimination – whether in a “meaning neutral” form or otherwise. I sensed that this unusual kind of response must have some reason.

30-11-2011, 06:57 AM #4
biswa

But the big reservation debate aside, how many people here have really been hurt by discrimination? I must confess that I have not been victimized by discrimination (yet). Isolated nastiness by various groups yest, but not discrimination. Of course I don't care if white people invite me to their SuperBowl parties or will ever consider my son as a dating option for their daughter. Other than that I think if you have something to offer: money, brains, hard work, you should get by fine.

Here Shri Biswa commences the arguments in favour of not making any discussion about discrimination. He says ‘ I must confess that I have not been victimized by discrimination (yet). Isolated nastiness by various groups yest, but not discrimination.’ and makes the suggestion that if one has something to offer: money, brains, hard work, one should get by fine. But that (yet) is an honest pointer to the fact that there is no guarantee that one will not be victimized by discrimination.

30-11-2011, 10:33 AM #5

sangom


Dear Shri Prasad,

You seem to be bent on "calling a spade a spade": but will the other immigrants from India or elsewhere to US agree? I very much doubt.

When I wrote that that only certain population segments do the lowly menial jobs in the US and these segments are discriminated in very subtle manner, Yamaka was quick to refute it citing Obama, Clinton and 'millions of other instances'.

So, I will be more interested in knowing how you respond to these'justifications' by people who intend to paint a glorious image of US even though they will agree that MLK did a phenomenal job for the African Americans. May be everything is hunky dory now, I don't know.

How do you view the fact that "Even in Football teams the black players and white players do not integrate."?

There is a saying in Malayalam, "enthum ceyyaam mahataam" meaning, people considered great can do anything (they have the licence for that). To me it looks as though it should be amended slightly to "enthum ceyyaam american saayippinum madaamaikkum". The opinions of Kunjuppu and Biswa seem to strengthen this view, imho.

Self-explanatory. I have given the past record of the tendency to justify the racism by some people in tbf and have also said that my views were not accepted.

30-11-2011, 01:32 PM #7

sangom

Originally Posted by happyhindu
Why is discrimination of other forms compared to discrimination in front of God?

It is so miserably shameful to think that a social empire of discrimination was created from "spiritual imperialism", and continues to stem from spiritual arrogance with a ridiculous attitude of "only me spiritual".

How can anyone oppress and suppress people using violence, or endorse such things, and then claim to be spiritual people with sattva gunas, i wonder..

Surely such people must be entered into the guinness book of world records, for no one before them or after them would ever think of creating or upholding such an abominable system.

Happy,

"Discrimination" in the ordinary and all-pervading sense means 'to distinguish', 'to separate', 'to treat differently on some basis', etc. As Shri Kunjuppu has said in post#3, are we not defined by our sense of discrimination in a 'meaning neutral' sense of the word? Further he adds that it is this 'discrimination' that makes us humans. He is therefore of the view that what Prasad demands, is unreasonable.

This opens to me an as yet unseen aspect of discrimination to me. Any 'egalitarian' society by the 'meaning neutral' sense of the term should have no discrimination and there must be complete equality of all people. But now it looks as though there is, strictly speaking, no true egalitarian society, despite some claims to that effect. And it becomes a simple question of "my discrimination is good and salutary, yours is bad and devilish". I find it difficult to endorse such a view. If one set of discrimination in the US (in Football teams the black players and white players do not integrate; there is strong enforcement of laws against discrimination based on race, color, gender, or disability in housing, jobs etc., which underscores the possibility of such discrimination happening in the absense of these laws and their strict enforcement) is creditable and praiseworthy, then why not another set of discrimination based on some other yardstick in some other place?

I feel Shri Senthil, Shri Suraju et al are right in their views, after all.

happyhindu, prasad1 and ozone like this.

After recording “like” for my above post, HH turns to criticize it, as below:-

30-11-2011, 05:17 PM #8

happyhindu
Dear Sangom Sir,

Am disappointed to read your post. How can anyone compare racism in the US, and casteism in India.

Am often baffled where is the equivalence of comparison, between racism and casteism. And why do people quote racism / other forms of discrimination as though that somehow justifes casteism.

To me, casteism is the grand ancestor of racism, its a more dangerous beast than racism. It plays on the "religious mind" and breaks the very spirit of a man.

To inflict violence on a man, suppress him into slavery, categorise him as fit for only one birth, declare him not releasable from slavery, to deny him certain rituals, and allow him only certain stuff (to time and again show him he is not capable of anything more in the scheme of god-realisation), is comparable to racism???

Between apples and oranges, the only common thing is both are fruits and share some common nutrients. Similarly the only commonality between racism and casteism is violence and slavery. Apart from that i wud never draw an equivalence between both.

Racism is not enmeshed as part of rituals into a religion. Racism is an open enemy. It can be fought against. But casteism works its way thru "spiritualism" over generations, it works its way into a man's spirit, breaks it down and makes him beleive he is fit for only that much.

Frankly sir, i think casteism is a frankenstein monstor created and honed by the feudal laws of dharmashastras. If brahmins stood to gain from so-called 'middle-castes' during colonial period and vice-versa, then all that anti-brahmanism (and politics associated with it), would not have happened.

Maybe Time decided enuf is enuf. Maybe Kalki came and went, and cud do nothing. Maybe Bali came (as Indra), so did Savarni Manu; and both cud do nothing.

We are living way ahead in the technological world, i feel. So Time had to do something about it. And here we are.

If even now, some people continue to draw equivalence whereever possible, merely to somehow justify casteism, dunno what else to say. Hope they just take note, the future does not belong to them.

What i sense in the posts of prasad1 and suraju is not about lack of a true egalitarian society, its about somehow justifying casteism infact.


30-11-2011, 06:00 PM #9

prasad1
Happy,
You do great injustice to me and my post. You either did not understand my post or chose to interpret it in your narrow view.
What i sense in the posts of prasad1 and suraju is not about lack of a true egalitarian society, its about somehow justifying casteism infact.
If you read my original post it very clearly says that birth based discrimination should be eliminated.
The discrimination outlawed by the country and some other birth based discrimination should be stopped.
By the way my post never mentioned caste, I suppose you need to see the true world, please remove your caste colored glasses.
30-11-2011, 06:17 PM #10

prasad1
Sangom sir,
Any 'egalitarian' society by the 'meaning neutral' sense of the term should have no discrimination and there must be complete equality of all people. But now it looks as though there is, strictly speaking, no true egalitarian society, despite some claims to that effect.

You are absolutely right, to envisage a society without some discrimination is an Utopian dream, and even not desired.
For example we do want excellence in life and that itself is a discrimination. For instance discrimination based on intelligence, education, ingenuity, etc is desired in job environment.
Similarly personal discrimination in social life is not controlled by law, and condoned by law. I can discriminate as to who can be my friend, and is same is true for you.

By law certain forms of discrimination is illegal (depending on the location). There are other aberrant practices that should be outlawed, and we should work on it. For instance in US the Hispanic Americans are suspected of being illegal and discriminated, and that is wrong.
Last edited by prasad1; 30-11-2011 at 06:20 PM.

Here Prasad seems to take a stand in favour of working for outlawing aberrant practices although in the first para he seems to agree with kunjuppu’s views that discrimination cannot be completely eradicated.
I felt that Prasad was perhaps weighing his options here.

30-11-2011, 06:46 PM #11
ozone
What i sense in the posts of prasad1 and suraju is not about lack of a true egalitarian society, its about somehow justifying casteism infact.
(Originally posted by HappyHindu)
Quite the contrary. Caste based discriminations have long been forgotten by the junta. They exists only for political reasons.
Infact they resurface only in verbose form if only to keep the more prevalent discriminations from being given a critical view.

To be continued...

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

result...?

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian'

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian' - Yahoo! News


(Thanks to Mr. M.S K Moorthy for the link)

 

[sangom]

30-11-2011, 06:52 PM #12
kunjuppu

Veteran
Dear sangom,

I would not go that far to as to term ‘right after all’ to senthil or even suraju, a dear friend, but with whom I disagree more often..

Personally, I would reserve the term ‘right after all’, only to those who discriminate the same way as I do – ie same likes and dislikes. I think that is human nature, to seek and company of like minded folks.

At the same time, I should confess to prejudices, some of which may be surprising to some, and disgusting to others, even in this very forum. Ofcourse, I will not titillate anyone by listing them ha ha, but it only emphasizes that being human is to be filled with likes and dislikes, in almost all aspects of our life – right from food to attitudes and everything else in between.

There are prejudices that violate what we hold as universal values. To me, one such, is equality before God, which manu, brahminism as I understand it, and the perpetrators of the same. To me, government enforced regulations to set right historic path, is only someone ‘doing the right thing’ unlike many folks here, who think, reservations and quotas in colleges and jobs, is discriminatory against the Brahmins. To me, this is an example of comfortable selective amnesia by the Brahmins – forgetting the millenniums of exclusion of dalits from mainstream, and beating their breasts over some attempt to right the wrongs. And that too for the past 70 years.

The llist of parayars provided by sarang is pathetic. The dalits are 25 – 30% of the population I think, and look at the list. how many educationists are there? how many sports leaders are there? is this not the example of a community suppressed. He has listed meena kandasami (I am a fan of hers), but does he or anyone know the travails of dr. vasantha kandasami, her mother, a phd. And the insults she had to put up at iit madras, by the Brahmin dominated faculty? One dalit. And no one accommodate her. That is the sad fact of today.

I am only commenting on sarang’s list, which anyone could have produced and which probably was lifted from the internet. A dhanush or ilayaraja is not enough to show that dalits are mainstream participants of tamil hindu society. To claim otherwise, I think, is dishonest and much more.

The word ‘parayan’ itself, in my household, meant something so demeaning, that I dare not repeat it here. I am quite sure, it was the same in all Brahmin households. Let us not claim innocence. I am more with happy hindu, in the cunning instigative skills of casteism, and today, our whipping boys are the middle castes, except these same, have also come to bite the hand that fed them intellectually. Poetic justice, in a strange form.

Biswa, I think today 1 in 10 desi marriages in the usa/Canada is to a white. This, based only on the folks I know and my own family. A desi would prefer a white any day to a marriage to a muslim or a black, or worse African, African muslim in that order. This is what defines a desi today in north America. I do not know if biswa is in the usa. If you are here for a long time, and of the social kind to make friends with the whites, you will find no ending invitations to super bowl or Halloween parties.

There is no broad based ‘white people’ who have a grand plan to exclude desis from their social circle. In fact the reverse is true. Whenever I have tambram gatherings at my home, I studiously avoid inviting certain relatives of mine who is married to a white or black. More because the few times when I did, these were excluded in all the chit chats, and ended up watching TV by themselves.

this too in canada. where the invitees have spent 30 years or so. still the need to cling only to fellow paappaans over drinks and gossip. such is life. these are my friends, and much as i like their company, i have to exclude certain other folks, to accommodate to their prejudices. such is reality of life!! we cannot but accommodate prejudice in our day to day life, if we are make a living or be part of society.

finally, for anyone trying to justify casteism, here is a story of self inflicted defeat. we all might remember lakshmipuram, that village, where the dalit mass converted to islam 20 years or so ago. a few years ago, a journalist visited the village and found this. the dalits no longer bothered the caste hindus, because no they had their own mosque. the hitherto insulted were now imams and the previous oppressors, now addressed these as 'bhais', which is a common term of reference to muslims in tamil nadu. literally in a village, we drove 30% of the population to islam through our prejudice. now what do you make of this? does one in today's india have to convert to islam or christianity to get dignity and respect? why do we automatically bestow respect to a muslim or christian, yet treat our own like the dirt underneath our feet? strange strange things casteism does. and we have apologists for manu still in our society.
Last edited by kunjuppu; 30-11-2011 at 07:02 PM.

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happyhindu, Nara and valli like this.
Kunjuppu seems to justify. I ask why we should take the lone case of Vasantha Kandasami if the so called stray cases in US do not detract from considering the US as having no “overt” racism?

30-11-2011, 08:09 PM #13

Nara
Originally Posted by sangom

...This opens to me an as yet unseen aspect of discrimination to me. Any 'egalitarian' society by the 'meaning neutral' sense of the term should have no discrimination and there must be complete equality of all people.
Shri sangom sir, "egalitarian" society to me is not one in which everyone is perfectly equal, but one in which people have the same equal opportunity as anybody else to make anything out of themselves. This is also not easy to achieve. Here in the land of the free Chelsea Clinton is hired by NBC as special correspondent not based on her proven track record of journalistic excellence, so were Meghan McCain and Jenna Bush.

But, IMO, such cases, or the dubious claim players do not integrate, must not be taken as proof of the failure of the egalitarian ideal itself, or worse, oppressive and exploitative discrimination like the varna/jAti system is inevitable and must be endured.

Some people will always enjoy birth-based advantages, but as a society we must try to (i) dismantle oppressive discrimination and (ii) ensure all of its members are able to pursue their goals based on their hard work and perseverance. The only socio-political system that can move a society towards this goal is liberal, representative, constitutional democracy that protects minority rights.

Cheers!

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This is where you first state that the claim about non-integration of football players is “dubious”=not convincing. But when I googled, after reading your “dubious” claim, I found this in the web:
FIFA's Sepp Blatter doesn't get it about racism - Los Angeles Times

30-11-2011, 09:20 PM #15

sangom
Smt. HappyHindu,

My position in this matter is that it is necessary to record our disfavour on all types of discrimination, whether caste-based, or race-based or on any other basis. I do not find any significant differences as between caste-based discrimination and racism, despite your arguments. What I object to strongly is the double standards - looking at the racial discriminations aginst AAs and Latin Americans as something not very bad and criticizing the Indian caste system with hellish fury as though the whole world is one beautiful egalitarian system and only India with its castes is the only single blot on humanity.

I suppose the AAs have their black churches and do not go to the whites' churches where they are not favoured. You may say the sudras were denied their own temples but that is only a partially true statement because almost all castes right down to the doms had their own gods, kuldevata temples and priests for those.

Your comparison to "apples and oranges" is, I am glad to say, truth in its own way. Both are fruits, tasty and some like one better, others the other. Both are basically harmless and can be used for healthy living. Then why should some people start an anti-apple (for example) campaign and cry hoarse about its bad effects and keep quiet
as if orange has no bad quality at all and is very desirable and eating orange is crediatble?

Shri Kunjuppu,

I feel you will have noticed by now that I am talking about society discriminating - showing differential treatments to some sections which that society itself acknowledges as part of it. It is not about the likes & dislikes at the individual level.

But supposing there is a small neighbourhood in which one person or family does not allow a certain individual to come into the neighbourhood and all the rest of the people in that neighbourhood also individually feel similarly. Then that particular person will become a persona non-grata in that neighbourhood. May be that person belongs to a group similar to the 'thieves' villages' of Tamil Nadu whence gangs come and commit thefts in Kerala often. In such a situation, all people from that thieves' colony will become "no-entry" people in the neighbourhood first referred to. Can this
be objected to as discrimination or is this to be legally allowed as individual discrimination?

I don't know how you will answer, but discrimination, if it is to be allowed at the individual level, will easily become group discrimination, imo. Hence what I feel is that we cannot discriminate between different kinds of discriminations and have to voice
our opposition to any kind of discrimination, except those permiited by the law of the land.

Shri prasad,

Preference for excellence, imo, may not be viewed by law as a form of pernicious discriminatory practice; if you need a carpenter you will like to hire the best carpenter who will give you the best value for money, and it may not be sensible to compel you to hire a musician for that job, merely because he is the first applicant!
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30-11-2011, 11:07 PM #20

Nara

Originally Posted by sangom
Smt amala,
Or is it Kum. Amala?
It is Kumari

!
What I find particularly striking is that members who very strongly criticize the caste system in India and brahmins for it, nicely try to sweep the discrimination in US, under the carpet, so to say.
If anybody is doing this I would join you in condemning them, could you please be more specific as to who is doing it, in what way?

I certainly agree that castiesm and racism are both ugly and to be condemned thoroughly. Racism is illegal in U.S. and the government has enacted laws to prevent racism from all public spheres, both governmental and private companies. They have strong affirmative action programs to help the historically oppressed Americans achieve their full potential. India has done well in this regard as well. India has strong reservation system, but the difference is, it is only in education and Government jobs. There is no affirmative action program of any kind in private companies, but in the U.S. any large enough company must show their hiring and promotion policies result in fair representation of the community both race and gender wise. The onus of proof is upon the company.

Racism in the U.S. and casteism in India share one more similarity, both are alive and kicking. Racism often lurking just below the surface. But the big difference is, in the U.S. except for some lunatic fringe, nobody tolerates overt racism. No public official however mighty can express racially motivated comments and not face swift disgrace. The run of the mill racist has to hide his racism. In contrast, in India, casteism is in full display. Caste-based discrimination occurs routinely in a matter of fact manner. Nobody thinks there is anything wrong in practicing casteism. That I think is one important difference.

Cheers!
Last edited by Nara; 30-11-2011 at 11:11 PM.

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Shri Nara,

According to me here in this post, I find you saying that both in India and in the US government legislation is there, more or less equally strongly. But then immediately you go on to reservation in private sector jobs which is not there in India now and from there you build your case that in US “except for some lunatic fringe, nobody tolerates overt racism. No public official however mighty can express racially motivated comments and not face swift disgrace. The run of the mill racist has to hide his racism. In contrast, in India, casteism is in full display. Caste-based discrimination occurs routinely in a matter of fact manner. Nobody thinks there is anything wrong in practicing casteism. That I think is one important difference.”
The effort , at least to me it seems, is to prove that something is lacking in the caste front in India and since you have no other argument, you come to the point of bluntly asserting “In contrast, in India, casteism is in full display.”

Now I give one very recent report from US.
Racism Still Reigns On The Waterfront In New York City | usariseup
some relevant excerpts from this:
The International Longshoremen's Association, the New York City union founded in 1892 that represents the shipping companies that operate in the ports of New York and New Jersey, are ignoring and defying a government order to diversify their ranks. In a city of over more than 8 million residents, 25 percent black, 27 percent Hispanic, 45 percent white, and 36 percent of the 8 million not even born in America, union leaders presented a list of people they want to hire to fill 37 temporary positions. The problem with the list of candidates, 34 were white and there were no Hispanics or blacks. And, all but four were white men.

The Waterfront Commission that held a hearing to find out why the shipping companies that operate the ports of New York and New Jersey could not find a single Hispanic, black, or Asian who could fill those positions, was outraged. Concerned that the workforce at the ports remains predominantly white, the Commission had urged the shipping companies to at least produce a diverse pool of candidates for the temporary positions.

I don’t know if the following is also an “isolated case” which should not be brought in unnecessarily, to disturb the feeling that government legislation is strong in US and compliance is assured. But unemployment which is rampant now seems to affect the blacks more than the white; more AA are laid off than whites. This is supported by the following observation in the Employment situation summary for Nov 2011 released by the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics


In November, the unemployment rate declined by 0.4 percentage point to 8.6 percent. From April through October, the rate held in a narrow range from 9.0 to 9.2 percent. The number of unemployed persons, at 13.3 million, was down by 594,000 in November. The labor force, which is the sum of the unemployed and employed, was down by a little more than half that amount. (See table A-1.)

Among the major worker groups, the unemployment rate for adult men fell by 0.5 percentage point to 8.3 percent in November. The jobless rate for whites (7.6 percent) also declined, while the rates for adult women (7.8 percent), teenagers (23.7 percent), blacks (15.5 percent), and Hispanics (11.4 percent) showed little or no change. The jobless rate for Asians was 6.5 percent, not seasonally adjusted.
(See tables A-1, A-2, and A-3.)30-11-2011, 06:52 PM #12


To be continued...

 

[happyhindu]

Sangom Sir,

Hope you realise no matter how much we denounce racism, that is not going to change reality for those who face caste-discrimination. Such people cannot care for social issues of america, africa, australia, europe, etc. Comparing two wrongs cannot make one wrong right. Beyond this there is nothing for me to say. Everythings has already been said. I rest my case. Peace.

Regards.

 

[sangom]

01-12-2011, 01:40 AM #26

prasad1
Mr. Sangom,
A 1999 Pentagon survey revealed that racism is still rife in the US military, after 79% of Hispanic and 76% of both African-American and American Indian active-duty service personnel reported that they had experienced offensive behaviour on account of their race. A report by the Applied Research Center released in March 2000 concluded that minority students are discriminated against in US public schools, as they are less likely to be accepted into advanced classes and gifted programs, they are suspended or expelled more often than white students, and the proportion of minority teachers is seldom as high as that of minority students.
Racial prejudice - Hutchinson encyclopedia article about Racial prejudiceRacial prejudice among some white Americans—even if unintentional—influences their views of President Barack Obama's "Americanism" and their assessment of how well he is performing in office, according to a University of Delaware doctoral student.
Award-winning research shows racial bias influences views of Obama
USA Network's New 'United or Divided' Poll Shows Americans Believe Racial, Ethnic, Political Divisions are Worse Than Just a Year Ago.

USA Network's New 'United or Divided' Poll Shows Americans Believe Racial, Ethnic,... -- NEW YORK, Dec. 8, 2010 /PRNewswire/ --

I felt that Prasad had, at last, decided to view racism as something tangibly existing in US and that it is proper to comment on them and bring the relevant reports, urls out, though he does not go as far as to ‘criticize’ those instances himself.

01-12-2011, 06:16 AM #29

Nara
Originally Posted by sangom

..... What I find particularly striking is that members who very strongly criticize the caste system in India and brahmins for it, nicely try to sweep the discrimination in US, under the carpet, so to say.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, I know I have already written a reply, but I am really troubled by the above statement and therefore another response, please forgive me for my insolence.

Yes, I do strongly criticize the caste system and hold Brahmins particularly responsible for it. However, I think whether my criticisms stand up to critical scrutiny or not does not depend on whether I sweep US racism under the carpet or not. I realize I will be a rank hypocrite if I did criticize casteism but chose to ignore racism, but the validity of what I say about caste system will not be affected in any way just because I act hypocritically with respect to U.S. racism.

My comments:

Here you appear to argue for a licence to criticize casteism even if you are perceived to be acting hypocritically with respect to US racism. And you also tacitly try to delink criticism of caste from criticism of racism. If you are sure that you have equal dislike for both casteism and racism and also that your attitude towards both is the same, what is the need for this type of an argument – is this an escape clause, in case, later on, your biased views in favour of clouding out racism come out more openly for everybody to understand?

But I do criticize the racism and have never tried to sweep it under the rug. For this you have said, in a different post, that we/I need to look for ways to remedy this racism in our adopted country before criticizing Indian casteism and Brahmins. I am unable to accept this view either. First, I have a strong bond with India and the people of India. I have as much interest in the welfare of India as I have of the interest of USA and for that matter the whole of humanity. But my particular interest is Tamil Nadu. So I think I don't have to solve the racial problems of my adopted country before discussing issues that affect by brethren in India in general and Tamil Nadu in particular.
My comments:
It is normally expected that one should give equal importance, if not more, to the adopted country which has graciously accepted and provided a good life for you and your family. (If my memory serves me right you have expressed sentiments of this type in the past but it will be difficult for me to locate the post unless I devote days to search. So, I am not pressing this.) Hence it is strange to hear “I think I don’t have to solve the racial problems of my adopted country”.

If, further, you are under the impression that you are “solving” the caste-related issues in India by means of your continuous criticism in this forum, I will say it is mere delusion.

And, it is also curious that a person, a University Professor, is gracious enough to consider the deprived and downtrodden castes far away in India and Tamil Nadu in particular, has no empathy or sympathy for the similarly placed ‘brethren’ in his adopted country! Do I smell a little of racism in this itself? I don’t know.

Finally, about American racism and Blacks being US Dalits, once again I don't agree with this equivalency at all. Racism is present in the U.S. yes, but not to the level of casteism in India. Also, there is concerted effort from all segments of society, Government, Church, and Civil society to educate the general public and lift them up out of the ignorance of racism. There is no such broad based effort in India. Of course there are some attempts by some entities including the Hindutva crowd, whose motivation needs examining. But, overall, jAti and jAti identity is woven into the fabric of Indian society in ways race is not in the present day U.S.

If you only have the eye to see the various reports from diverse sources, you will find that just like India, the legislation is there but enforcement is weak. This (Racism Still Reigns On The Waterfront In New York City | usariseup) is just one sample. I gather from various internet sources that in the current unemployment scenario, more AAs are laid off than whites; also when the housing bubble burst, seizure and sale of homes of the blacks was more zealous than for white homes. And, the recent reports on education vividly bring out the fact that the segregated schools are bringing out very few AAs with high scores and so your smug assertion that “Also, there is concerted effort from all segments of society, Government, Church, and Civil society to educate the general public and lift them up out of the ignorance of racism.” has to be taken with a pinch of salt only. If at all the AAs are being kicked downwards into poverty, sub-standard education, disparities in health care and so on. But possibly you don’t want to see or you are unconcerned since you have a good life.

Also, consider the fact we have well-educated and otherwise rational people in this very site talking about each caste staying separate, respecting each other, etc. In spite of its sordid history of genocidal wars upon the native peoples and the despicable saga of slavery, the U.S. formally rejected the idea of separate but equal and declared with the force of the law of the land that separate by its very nature can never be equal.

Declarations, exhortations, legislations etc., are alright but how do you explain the redlining and reverse red lining and the idea of unseparated housing?

Let me cite a couple of personal experiences for what it is worth.

[1] K commented earlier today about Meena Kandasamy's mother getting treated badly by the Brahmin faculty of IIT. Here in my department we have black professors (I myself would be considered a Black by racist Whites) and we are full members of the faculty in all respects, like any of the White professors. In fact some of the well respected and rewarded professors are non-White.

Meena Kandasamy’s mother is just as much an individual as James Craig Anderson or Deryl Dedmon; how come suddenly Meena Kandasamy’s mother became a representative instance of many such and how come Deryl Dedmon is just a stray case only? Strange!

[2] We live in a neighborhood of about 30 to 40 independent houses. To my knowledge there are two Indian families (one being mine), two Black families, and one Hispanic. Our best friends are two White neighbors. The love us as almost part of their families and we do too. The day we moved into this neighborhood some 8 years ago we were welcomed with goodies and cakes from several neighbors.
Social climbing is a universal instinct. Anywhere newcomers will tend to associate and mingle more with the higher echelons of society as compared to them than with those who are one or two steps below. Even in agrahaarams this has been the human tendency – cultivate friendship with the highly respected households. So, I don’t find anything special in the two white neighbours becoming your best friends.

BTW, I have seen people making posts here that they are looking for houses or plots in an agraharam or a Brahmin neighborhood. Some have felt that agraharam concept must be revived. Such red-lining is illegal in the U.S. Refusing to sell or rent to someone on racial grounds is a criminal offense. Banks refusing to give loans on this basis can be criminally prosecuted and have been.

I have already said that the redlining and reverse redlining have to be satisfactorily explained and it should be proved that in US an AA can just buy or rent any flat or home which he likes and can afford, without any obstruction. Even Yamaka had narrated his experience in this regard.

In summary. I am not saying everything is honky dory in the U.S. or that India stinks. The challenges in U.S. is far different than the challenges in India. We must not pit one nation against another. We must condemn racial prejudice where it surfaces and condemn casteism in the same way. All the progressive voices from India, from USA and from all other places must band together and oppose the racist and casteist views. You and I are in the same team, the opponents are those who are KKK/new Nazi types and the incorrigible Brahminists of all stripes.

So, my request is that we unite against the retrograde forces.

Cheers!

Here I find a conciliatory tone (We must not pit one nation against another. We must condemn racial prejudice where it surfaces and condemn casteism in the same way. All the progressive voices from India, from USA and from all other places must band together and oppose the racist and casteist views. You and I are in the same team, the opponents are those who are KKK/new Nazi types and the incorrigible Brahminists of all stripes.), but simultaneously, there is this caution that the challenges facing US are far different than those facing India and that we must not (therefore) pit India against US, i.e., set one country to fight the other. In what way are we doing this? Is comparing called as “pit one against”, in US English?

I read this as a caveat to the effect that if any more effort is made to compare US racism to Indian casteism, it would be taken as a national affront to the US by yourself. What can be more explicit than this to say, “stop your bloody comparison of our racism to your casteism, and get lost, or else…”.

I did not take up this because I have found that there is always a certain condescending tone in many of your posts, especially those where caste, brahminism, etc. figure. It is as though the India-based members are semi-civilized, do not know anything other than a casteist way of living and thinking and it is the bounden duty of the people who have emancipated to the American way of living and thinking to preach what is good for the “natives” and what all are wrong, unsatisfactory with them. Hence, I let it pass as yet another of that personal quirk.

The final exhortation “So, my request is that we unite against the retrograde forces.” does apply equally to uniting against the opponents viz., those who are KKK/new Nazi types and the incorrigible Brahminists of all stripes, but going by your caution that we should not pit one country against the other, the challenges are different and one subsequent post saying that the need of the hour is relentless criticism of casteism, it does not need much intelligence to guess where your priorities lie.


You do say here, “We must condemn racial prejudice where it surfaces and condemn casteism in the same way.” But when this is read with your earlier post saying “In contrast, in India, casteism is in full display.”, it goes without saying that the intention is we condemn each stray incident of racism reported in US but continue to criticize caste, casteism, brahminism etc., relentlessly.

 

[ozone]

Sangom Sir,

Hope you realise no matter how much we denounce racism, that is not going to change reality for those who face caste-discrimination. Such people cannot care for social issues of america, africa, australia, europe, etc. Comparing two wrongs cannot make one wrong right. Beyond this there is nothing for me to say. Everythings has already been said. I rest my case. Peace.

Regards.

1. Unless you are trying to sneak in that stuff here, there appears to be no comment that links denouncement of racism to disappearance of casteism. At the same time it should be made sure that your comment also didnt intend the opposite - that unless casteism is fully nailed down, one cannot talk about racism.
2. IMO, Citizens having their body and heart in the same land is more noble than living in a land but caring less about it and appearing to having affliations and service to another in the hope of talking ill about a section within.
3. You are right. One should look at the title of the post and stick to the subject. So, Dont bring casteism here.

 

[happyhindu]

1. Unless you are trying to sneak in that stuff here, there appears to be no comment that links denouncement of racism to disappearance of casteism. At the same time it should be made sure that your comment also didnt intend the opposite - that unless casteism is fully nailed down, one cannot talk about racism.
2. IMO, Citizens having their body and heart in the same land is more noble than living in a land but caring less about it and appearing to having affliations and service to another in the hope of talking ill about a section within.
3. You are right. One should look at the title of the post and stick to the subject. So, Dont bring casteism here.

There need not be abnormal deviant interpretations of those few closing sentences to sangom sir.

 

[sravna]

The basis of discrimination in racism is starkingly different from that of casteism.
whereas the former is on a trivial basis of skin color which actually purports to a non existing superior intelligence the latter is based on the development of moral values among individuals. So racism is likely to survive much longer than casteism because of its irrational basis.

It is far more difficult to give up attachment to a pet belief than making some one see the rationale against something. The brahmins in my opinion are and would be more open and more wholehearted in their efforts to do away with the birth based casteism than a white person would be to wholeheartedly do away with racism.

 

[sarang]

If the term birth based or acquired 'differentiation' is used instead of 'discrimination', then all conflict will disappear.

 

[happyhindu]

If the term birth based or acquired 'differentiation' is used instead of 'discrimination', then all conflict will disappear.

There is no real difference in differentiation and discrimination in practical application. The phase of cultural differentiation was over long back. What we now have is oppression in the name of discrimination.

 

[ozone]

There need not be abnormal deviant interpretations of those few closing sentences to sangom sir.

Abnormal deviant intepretation? Help me understand it better. Are you saying you did not mean what you wrote?
Or a norm unknown to me that any thing can be said to or about some one in the guise of closing sentence and be not questioned further?

 

[nachi naga]

when people think race is only color,they need their heads checked.

its about economic prosperity and comfort people.make others work(slave) while i tool around.

this is true globally.not just india or usa.

 

[happyhindu]

Abnormal deviant intepretation? Help me understand it better. Are you saying you did not mean what you wrote?
Or a norm unknown to me that any thing can be said to or about some one in the guise of closing sentence and be not questioned further?

i meant am not speaking to sangom sir on the topic anymore. you need not ask for clarification on sangom sir's behalf.

 

[sangom]

The basis of discrimination in racism is starkingly different from that of casteism.
whereas the former is on a trivial basis of skin color which actually purports to a non existing superior intelligence the latter is based on the development of moral values among individuals. So racism is likely to survive much longer than casteism because of its irrational basis.

It is far more difficult to give up attachment to a pet belief than making some one see the rationale against something. The brahmins in my opinion are and would be more open and more wholehearted in their efforts to do away with the birth based casteism than a white person would be to wholeheartedly do away with racism.

Shri Sravna,

I am given to understand that racism is not based on simple skin colour at all. It is as pernicious or even more. A person is "guessed" to be a "black" or "coloured" based on his speech. If you are seen, then the physical features will themselves determine who you are.

A fair complexion, by Indian standards, is no guarantee except that in day-to-day mixing with people one may not have to face obvious discriminatory gestures or snide remarks, that is all. You may like to see this:

Racism in America: Episode One - YouTube

 

[sangom]

Asian students have higher average SAT scores than any other group, including whites. A study by Princeton sociologist Thomas Espenshade examined applicants to top colleges from 1997, when the maximum SAT score was 1600 (today it's 2400). Espenshade found that Asian-Americans needed a 1550 SAT to have an equal chance of getting into an elite college as white students with a 1410 or black students with an 1100.

result...?

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian'

Some Asians' college strategy: Don't check 'Asian' - Yahoo! News


(Thanks to Mr. M.S K Moorthy for the link)

Smt. V.R.

I had only second hand information that racism in the US is in reality, much more than what is generally projected by the US govt. and agencies, but since I started searching the internet, I found that it is a lot more prevalent than what is, sort of, advised to be. I also understand that in some "stray incidents" as Shri nara, Shri yamaka, and others try to emphasize, the children are subjected to a lot of tension because they do not look as one among the other white kids and somehow, get discriminated. I do not know the truth. If you have any info. please share with others here.