Racism in the U.S.

[Raghy]

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Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.

....however if I read the Upanishads and other Hindu texts correctly, when the caste system started, it was not birth based - there was movement between castes, based on one's aptitude.

I am not convinced about the movement between varnas. I don't know if there is any evidence of anyone branded as 'sudhra' moving across varnas. Even during the Mahabharata period, such movements were not seen. Karna was considered, his skill in warfare and archery not with standing, as 'lower caste' person based on his father's profession. Anyone born of sudhra was seen to be considered as a sudhra; don't think they had a choice of movement across varnas. If I am wrong, I am looking forward to be corrected, please.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu, Greetings.

I refer to your message in post #79 in response to part of Sowbagyavthy Vishalakshi Ramani's message. In your message, you are trying to justify the hatred shown against all brahmins; hatred shown based on their birth alone. You are trying to justify the hatred by citing references from colonial period and period before. Brahmins who suffer today do not make rules about veda padasala enrolments. The brahmins who suffer today due to reservation policies do not even know Sanskrit leave alone Vedas. The persons actually do the discrimination about veda padasala enrolments are not affected by the reservation policies; in fact, those persons are respected and supported financially by NBs. The sad fact is, you are very well aware of these facts. I am only talking about your message. Your message only seems to support hatred against one whole community. In a different instance, your message was in effect urging brahmins to leave India/Tamil Nadu if they are not happy about the reservation policies.

kindly allow me to condemn the hatred displayed against one comunity of people in your messages, please.

Please let me know which part of post # 79 leads you to beleive that am "justifying" all the stuff written by you. You are free to condemn anything you want, who am i to stop you.

Am not sure why you bring in reservations policy here. But if your angst is about reservations, all i can say is yes, please do not expect to get reservations (am being realistic by saying so). It may be better to seek greener pastures elsewhere because there is no use in repeatedly attacking reservation policy.

 

[happyhindu]

I am not convinced about the movement between varnas. I don't know if there is any evidence of anyone branded as 'sudhra' moving across varnas. Even during the Mahabharata period, such movements were not seen. Karna was considered, his skill in warfare and archery not with standing, as 'lower caste' person based on his father's profession. Anyone born of sudhra was seen to be considered as a sudhra; don't think they had a choice of movement across varnas. If I am wrong, I am looking forward to be corrected, please.

Mahabharata was written over a long period of time. There are commentaries on stuff being interloped also. Btw, in the same mahabharata, Vedavyasa was the son of a fisherwoman. This link posted by KRS sir will answer your question about varna crossovers - Rays and ways of Indian culture - D. P. Dubey - Google Books

 

[Raghy]

Please let me know which part of post # 79 leads you to beleive that am "justifying" all the stuff written by you. You are free to condemn anything you want, who am i to stop you.

Am not sure why you bring in reservations policy here. But if your angst is about reservations, all i can say is yes, please do not expect to get reservations (am being realistic by saying so). It may be better to seek greener pastures elsewhere because there is no use in repeatedly attacking reservation policy.

Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu,

In your message you have mentioned about the reservation policies in vedapadasalas. So, reservation policies are relevant, in my opinion. In her original message, Sowbagyavathy VR also lamented about the reservation policies. You replied to the portion of Sowbagyavathy VR's message that lamented about 'hatred'. So, reservatio policies are relevant here.

I will continue to voice against social injustice. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Mahabharata was written over a long period of time. There are commentaries on stuff being interloped also. Btw, in the same mahabharata, Vedavyasa was the son of a fisherwoman. This link posted by KRS sir will answer your question about varna crossovers - Rays and ways of Indian culture - D. P. Dubey - Google Books

Vedavysa was the son of Parasara, a brahnmin. If Vedavysa was the son of a Sudhra, I don't think he would have been able to move across varnas. My question is about the child of a Sudhra. Thanks for your response.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Sowbagyavathy Happyhindu,

In your message you have mentioned about the reservation policies in vedapadasalas. So, reservation policies are relevant, in my opinion. In her original message, Sowbagyavathy VR also lamented about the reservation policies. You replied to the portion of Sowbagyavathy VR's message that lamented about 'hatred'. So, reservatio policies are relevant here.

I will continue to voice against social injustice. I don't see anything wrong with that either.

Cheers!

Please quote the exact portion of the post 79 about which you are saying so much about.

 

[happyhindu]

Vedavysa was the son of Parasara, a brahnmin. If Vedavysa was the son of a Sudhra, I don't think he would have been able to move across varnas. My question is about the child of a Sudhra. Thanks for your response.

Cheers!

Please read the link provided and look up the origins of Parashara.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sister Srimathi HH Ji,

Our history as Hindus is very murky, because we did not keep records. From AIT to other so called 'Indian History', especially on our distant past, I hold a distinct suspension of belief.

With regards to the motives of my forefathers, I only can relate to my own experiences with my relatives such as my grand parents, grand uncles and aunts.

Except for a very few instances, I find most of them to be fine human beings, with humanity in their hearts. And most of them grew up in traditional homes where caste rules were followed!

This is why, I am very careful when I think of my forefathers. It is very easy to paint them as demons based on today's mores, but they were not demons. I stand on their shoulders, and I know I am today who I am, because they were who they were.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards,
KRS

 

[Raghy]

Please read the link provided and look up the origins of Parashara.

Okay. I haven't read that link yet. (I am busy cooking!) I will getback, if still have a doubt after reading that link. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[KRS]

Dear Sri Raghy Ji,

By the Mahabaratha times, the caste system was regimented by birth. I am talking about much earlier times, chronicled in the Upanishads (e.g., Satyakama Jabala story).

Hope this explains.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.



I am not convinced about the movement between varnas. I don't know if there is any evidence of anyone branded as 'sudhra' moving across varnas. Even during the Mahabharata period, such movements were not seen. Karna was considered, his skill in warfare and archery not with standing, as 'lower caste' person based on his father's profession. Anyone born of sudhra was seen to be considered as a sudhra; don't think they had a choice of movement across varnas. If I am wrong, I am looking forward to be corrected, please.

Cheers!

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sister Srimathi HH Ji,

Our history as Hindus is very murky, because we did not keep records. From AIT to other so called 'Indian History', especially on our distant past, I hold a distinct suspension of belief.

With regards to the motives of my forefathers, I only can relate to my own experiences with my relatives such as my grand parents, grand uncles and aunts.

Except for a very few instances, I find most of them to be fine human beings, with humanity in their hearts. And most of them grew up in traditional homes where caste rules were followed!

This is why, I am very careful when I think of my forefathers. It is very easy to paint them as demons based on today's mores, but they were not demons. I stand on their shoulders, and I know I am today who I am, because they were who they were.

Hope this makes sense.

Regards,
KRS

Dear Sir,

Am not sure what to make out this post. It appears suddenly and out of context with the conversation on manusmrithi. I do not agree hindus did not keep records. The did record things in their own way in the samhitas, brahmanas (texts) and even puranas...

IMO there is nothing called demons. But some portrayed a certain set that way, and demonised them. Infact it is a common beleif that some people are asuras, hence bad and some people descended from rishis and devas, hence good. Am sure you do not agree with such character slotting. So there is no need to be talking about demons, imo.

Also, to be honest i don't know who my ancestors were way back in time. So i don't know whose shoulders i should stand on. If i were to truly seek deep links i wud have to travel to ethiopia.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sri Raghy Ji,

By the Mahabaratha times, the caste system was regimented by birth. I am talking about much earlier times, chronicled in the Upanishads (e.g., Satyakama Jabala story).

Hope this explains.

Regards,
KRS

Sir, i suppose you mean Varna System was regimented by birth....Varna was a socio-political unit since it tied people to occupations as designated by state/law. Caste, on the other hand, was just a social unit of occupation. Caste was never so regimented as Varna System. So we can say Varna was by birth, not caste.

 

[KRS]

Dear Sister HH Ji,

I have nothing else to discuss with you on this topic. Please stand on the shoulders of your African ancestors as much as you wish.

I thought I was stating a truism, based on the import of your comments on Manu, who obviously was a forefather of mine.

Forget it. Since I am not as academic as yourself, I am probably wrong. I apologize. Perhaps it is a case of an ignoramus like me trying to have a conversation with an intellectual like you. Sorry I tried.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sarang]

When karna was not allowed to compete because of his parentage belonging to another varna, duryodana immediately made him a king; so social status was more important and valued than birth in the end. Vidura was an advisor to the king and highly respected for his scholarship despite being born to a sudra Education and wealth did move up a person in the respect/recognition/ acceptance scale. This was true always.

Raja raja chola and cholas claim to kshatriyahood and decendance from surya and this is accepted by all.

In my opinion, brahmins are made to carry an unnecessary guilt burden by some for self serving reasons. Those who feel guilty can do expiatory prayaschithas or even disown their birth as a brahmin if they want. There are millions of good values with brahmins and brahminism, which will definitely survive and flourish. Brahmins have survived physical elimination by muslims and christians and can easily weather vitriolic attacks of brahmin haters in this forum.

Dear Sri. KRS, Greetings.

I am not convinced about the movement between varnas. I don't know if there is any evidence of anyone branded as 'sudhra' moving across varnas. Even during the Mahabharata period, such movements were not seen. Karna was considered, his skill in warfare and archery not with standing, as 'lower caste' person based on his father's profession. Anyone born of sudhra was seen to be considered as a sudhra; don't think they had a choice of movement across varnas. If I am wrong, I am looking forward to be corrected, please.

Cheers!

 

[sarang]

See, how clever (scheming) the BBs are to convert american racism topic to brahmin bashing and caste hangover.

Americans are the worst - total destruction of native indian culture, running a flourishing slave trade, and now proxy rule in iraq, afganistan. No wonder americans are the most hated group by some. Only good point I see in america's favour is their unstinting support to israel. This act alone will cleanse them of all sins.

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sister HH Ji,

I have nothing else to discuss with you on this topic. Please stand on the shoulders of your African ancestors as much as you wish.

I thought I was stating a truism, based on the import of your comments on Manu, who obviously was a forefather of mine.

Forget it. Since I am not as academic as yourself, I am probably wrong. I apologize. Perhaps it is a case of an ignoramus like me trying to have a conversation with an intellectual like you. Sorry I tried.

Regards,
KRS

Oops sorry sir, it did not occur to me that you meant Manu from 200 AD was your ancestor !!!! Wish you had said you believed Manu was your forefather much earlier itself. The ignoramus that i am, it simply did not occur to me.

But you see sir, Manu lived in a different manvantara when Marichi, Atri, Angiras, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Prachetas, Vasishtha, Bhrigu, and Narada were considered brahmans. Manusmrithi mentions only these 10 as sages.

There is no Vishwamitra, Bharadwaja, Kashyapa, Vatsa, Gautama, Jamadagni, in that list recognised by Manusmrithi. So i am not sure which Manu of which Manvantara you meant is your ancestor ?? Also, am wondering sir, do you mean Manu was the ancestor of brahmins only?

 

[happyhindu]

Raja raja chola and cholas claim to kshatriyahood and decendance from surya and this is accepted by all.

Proof please?

 

[KRS]

Dear Sister HH Ji,

As I said, you are an intellectual giant, not worthy of the benefit of my discussions with you anymore.

I see a lot of arrogance and smugness. So be it.

I will not respond to you anymore.

It is so sad i am losing a sister. But if that is what you want, you got it.

Bye.

Regards,
KRS

 

[sarang]

Silly question. You have enough resources to google and enlighten yourself. Of course a closed mind and blind vision will show only black space.

Proof please?

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sister HH Ji,

As I said, you are an intellectual giant, not worthy of the benefit of my discussions with you anymore.

I see a lot of arrogance and smugness. So be it.

I will not respond to you anymore.

It is so sad i am losing a sister. But if that is what you want, you got it.

Bye.

Regards,
KRS

So sorry to see this sir. Especially the pot shots.

Anyways, thanks for the conversation so far. I started this conversation (in post 114) because you generalised untouchables in a way i felt was wrong. You choose to end it, with no proper addressel to post 141, so be it.

I hope readers gain new perspectives on the folly of associating character with caste. You see sir, Arrogance and smugness are not birth-rights of specific people only.

 

[happyhindu]

Silly question. You have enough resources to google and enlighten yourself. Of course a closed mind and blind vision will show only black space.

I am so silly sarang with a blind 'vision' so i have not come across such a point on the Cholas which you mention. But you have such an open mind, you are blessed with non-blind vision, so pray can you enlighten me where from did you get that info?

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Sir,

Namaste ray2:

Good that Nataraja is still dancing. May be if He stops the world will come to a grinding halt and perish too

Already bleak predictions are driving people nuts and pushing them towards Kudhkushi (suicides)

[Kudh + kushi = satisfying oneself.]

How can suicide satisfy a person when he is not going to there any more???

A Point to ponder!

I guess Life is back to normal in the Forum -

despite the Adam to Zeus thread-
trying to discourage B.B. and :brick:.

with warm regards,
Mrs. V. R.

Thank you Srimathi VR Ji.

Let me share a couple of stories with you on this topic, if you do not mind.

A brilliant student, passed Intermediate with #2 rank out of Madras University in the late 1950s, did not even get called in for an interview for admission to either Madras Medical or Stanley, because of his caste (Brahmin). Another reputed medical school admits him and he is now world renowned.

Fast forward. A person from the same caste applies to a premier MBA school in India. Not a great academic background, but good 3 year experience in a unique job (non IT). Very low GMAT score. Gets admitted and graduated. Now this person is advising folks with low GMAT scores on how to gain admission to this institution!

Things are a changing even in India! Nataraja is still dancing!

Regards,
KRS

 

[sarang]

You first present your scholarly version of rajaraja chola's birth caste, why he was accepted by brahmins as a king, had a brahmin as his chief minister, had his kula guru as a brahmin. What was his attitude to people of other varnas and avarnas in his rule. Then we can compare notes as to his caste.

Once you understand that sanatana dharma is not a single pyramid, but a cluster of pyramids; all short or tall, small or huge, serving a common cause of dharma many controversial issues will be seen in a new light. Our ancestors were able to resolve the contradictions; we too will.

I am so silly sarang with a blind 'vision' so i have not come across such a point on the Cholas which you mention. But you have such an open mind, you are blessed with non-blind vision, so pray can you enlighten me where from did you get that info?

 

[happyhindu]

You first present your scholarly version of rajaraja chola's birth caste, why he was accepted by brahmins as a king, had a brahmin as his chief minister, had his kula guru as a brahmin. What was his attitude to people of other varnas and avarnas in his rule. Then we can compare notes as to his caste.

Once you understand that sanatana dharma is not a single pyramid, but a cluster of pyramids; all short or tall, small or huge, serving a common cause of dharma many controversial issues will be seen in a new light. Our ancestors were able to resolve the contradictions; we too will.

Sarang, i am a dumbhead who despite reading on the cholas have not come across rajaraja mentioning himself as a kshatriya with "decendance from surya". Nor have i found evidence that "this is accepted by all". Since you mention so, its your responsibility to produce evidence for Rajaraja's caste. After all your ancestors were able to resolve contradictions and you too will do the same. Good for you Sarang. Good going.

 

[happyhindu]

Sarang,

Here is one inscription South Indian Inscriptions_Volume 1 - Inscriptions at Tirumalai Near Polur @ whatisindia.com but i find no mention of varnas.

Well, you see, vamsavalis are shared and common between 'brahmins' and 'kshatriyas'. So unless we find an inscription stating the varna, we cannot designate anyone as a 'kshatriya'.

So if you have info on Rajaraja chola specifically choosing 'kshatriya' varna for himself in an inscription please let me know. For all you know cholas may have chosen brahmana varna for themselves (or considered themselves so).

So far there is no direct evidence for the varna of the cholas, thru inscriptions. But the Aitareya Brahmana of Rigveda states Vishwamitra cursed his own 50 sons to become svapakas including savara, andhra, pundra, pulinda, mutiba.

The Shatapatha Brahmana (13.5.4.16) says the andhras, ie, sons of Vishwamitra are Turvasas. Vayu, Matsya, Agni and Brahma Purana say that the Andhra, Pandya, Karnata, Chola and Kerala (Kutsa) were drawn from the lineages of Puru and Turvasha. These Puranas say the Pandya, Karnata, Chola and Kerala were the sons of Andhra.

So from vedic and puranic sources, the cholas are sons of andhra vishwamitras. Those who hold vedas and puranas as sacrosanct, cannot contradict this unfortunately.