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Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

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There cannot be a rigid-caste system propagated in a democracy.

Let alone a less rigid system, I propose a fully elastic system where anyone can become any caste they choose, for whatever purpose fits their agenda! Let a Dalit become a Brahmin if he feels thats what he desires for no reason, or a Brahmin become a Chettiyar if he can get some 25 crore bounty! Let it all be easy and none of government's business! Most nonHindus have problem converting to Hinduism because they don't know which caste they will end up in, what religious practices they must undertake and other practical problems.
 
We have been thru this several times in this forum. No one really cares about who wants nominal affiliation or not, who wants to change his habits or not, etc. This particular mutt did openly preach things that were incorrect, inappropriate and ineffective, to say the least. And caused / aggravated the B-NB divide. Beyond this am not willing to drag on the discussion more. However, your last para is wrong. In tamilnadu, heads of aadheenams now take in students across castes.

Can you quote any of Adheenams saying that caste syastem should be abolished? Can a Dalit become an Adheenam head?
 
Let alone a less rigid system, I propose a fully elastic system where anyone can become any caste they choose, for whatever purpose fits their agenda! Let a Dalit become a Brahmin if he feels thats what he desires for no reason, or a Brahmin become a Chettiyar if he can get some 25 crore bounty! Let it all be easy and none of government's business! Most nonHindus have problem converting to Hinduism because they don't know which caste they will end up in, what religious practices they must undertake and other practical problems.

Democracy in India is what is nurturing the caste system. After independence we believed that the caste system will disappear. Then the caste based parties cropped up. This was universally condemned by the press in the beginning. Then it was accepted as a matter of course. Tamil Nadu is one of the leaders in this.

The press talk about communal parties. Are the caste based parties not communal?

The politicians in India especially Tamil Nadu need the caste system for their survival.

I live in Bengal where there are no caste based parties. Caste based all India parties have failed miserably in the state elections.
 
Let alone a less rigid system, I propose a fully elastic system where anyone can become any caste they choose, for whatever purpose fits their agenda! Let a Dalit become a Brahmin if he feels thats what he desires for no reason, or a Brahmin become a Chettiyar if he can get some 25 crore bounty! Let it all be easy and none of government's business! Most nonHindus have problem converting to Hinduism because they don't know which caste they will end up in, what religious practices they must undertake and other practical problems.


:)
 
Can you quote any of Adheenams saying that caste syastem should be abolished? Can a Dalit become an Adheenam head?
Perhaps they have let their actions speak for themselves. Since they have started taking in students only now it may be a few years before someone becomes the head of an aadheenam. Again, i am opposed to the use of the word 'dalit' for someone who is already training under a adheenam. I also think it is not necessary to wait for someone else to start a good thing. Or to compare a particualr-institution with other aadhinams or mutts. If acharyas of a mutt wish they can start a good thing themselves.
 
Democracy in India is what is nurturing the caste system. After independence we believed that the caste system will disappear. Then the caste based parties cropped up. This was universally condemned by the press in the beginning. Then it was accepted as a matter of course. Tamil Nadu is one of the leaders in this.

The press talk about communal parties. Are the caste based parties not communal?

The politicians in India especially Tamil Nadu need the caste system for their survival.

I live in Bengal where there are no caste based parties. Caste based all India parties have failed miserably in the state elections.
Sir, it may be a good idea to jog back our memory to the thread "Brits are to Blame", and think over what led to the creation of caste as a political platform...We got democracy with a price.
 
In my personal life experience,I have come across a number of persons who talk eloquently for abolition of the caste system,but themselves
entrenched in their own caste.They preach only for others,but do not follow what they preach.
If caste system is to be abolished in Hinduism,first Naidus,Mudaliyars,Pillais,Nadars BCs/MBCs etc who are in majority can take the initiative and TB community will definitely fall in line as they have no other alternative.
Now, I am reminded of an orthodox Mudaliyar who was in charge of 'University of Madras' as Vice- Chancellor for a long time.
I know many students who got only third division in the Graduate course in Madras university during his period as VC,were Rank holders and Gold Medalists in the Post- Graduate course in other universities.Many unfortunate ones who could not take up higher studies had to rot in
in their life.Why I am writing this is to emphasize that persons from other castes(apart from TB) were not Angels and have shown their true colors
when they got opportunity.
 
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196 if I am not mistaken. if I am not mistaken.
Sir, it may be a good idea to jog back our memory to the thread "Brits are to Blame", and think over what led to the creation of caste as a political platform...We got democracy with a price.

Yes. Blame the British for everything. But there were no caste based parties till 1968 if I am not mistaken. The Dravidian ideology which is divisive was dug up for political purposes. But it did not catch up in the other so called Dravidian states. Let us remember that even being part of India was not accepted by the the major Tamil political party till they came to power. Of course they never wanted independence for India.
 
In my personal life experience,I have come across a number of persons who talk eloquently for abolition of the caste system,but themselves
entrenched in their own caste.They preach only for others,but do not follow what they preach.
If caste system is to be abolished in Hinduism,first Naidus,Mudaliyars,Pillais,Nadars BCs/MBCs etc who are in majority can take the initiative and TB community will definitely fall in line as they have no other alternative.
Now, I am reminded of an orthodox Mudaliyar who was in charge of 'University of Madras' as Vice- Chancellor for a long time.
I know many students who got only third division in the Graduate course in Madras university during his period as VC,were Rank holders and Gold Medalists in the Post- Graduate course in other universities.Many unfortunate ones who could not take up higher studies had to rot in
in their life.Why I am writing this is to emphasize that persons from other castes(apart from TB) were not Angels and have shown their true colors
when they got opportunity.
Sir, dunno who is this vice-chancellor you are speaking of. Anyways, lets forget it.

I do not know why people want others to start a good thing and then claim that they will follow it. Especially when they started off the bad thing (that is, varna allocations and related fights) in the colonial period.

Quite apparently people will not give up caste, until the original labellers (mutts) themselves start doing something about it. Anyways, it does not seem to matter to the orthodoxy even today what the common people expect..

I do beleive sir, that what goes around comes around. Things that we start off, usually end up coming back to us, to haunt us. Karma.
 
Perhaps they have let their actions speak for themselves. Since they have started taking in students only now it may be a few years before someone becomes the head of an aadheenam. Again, i am opposed to the use of the word 'dalit' for someone who is already training under a adheenam. I also think it is not necessary to wait for someone else to start a good thing. Or to compare a particualr-institution with other aadhinams or mutts. If acharyas of a mutt wish they can start a good thing themselves.

I am sorry. Chappi kattu would not do. You have not answered my first question. Have the Adeenams ever issued a statement calling for abolition of the caste system? This I am asking since one of the Adheenams was spearheading the anti-Brahmin movement. The Adheenams are very powerful in Tamil Nadu since they own most of the temples unlike the Mutt which controls only one temple. I have also not seen the statement by any Adheenam or any Adigal condemning the two tumbler system or forcible prevention of Dalits from entering the temples.

Tamil Nadu has the dubious distinction of maximum atrocities against Dalits. Kattai Panchayats and cruel punishment against inter-caste marriages. No involvement of the Brahmins in any of these.
 
Sir, dunno who is this vice-chancellor you are speaking of. Anyways, lets forget it.

I do not know why people want others to start a good thing and then claim that they will follow it. Especially when they started off the bad thing (that is, varna allocations and related fights) in the colonial period.

Quite apparently people will not give up caste, until the original labellers (mutts) themselves start doing something about it. Anyways, it does not seem to matter to the orthodoxy even today what the common people expect..

I do beleive sir, that what goes around comes around. Things that we start off, usually end up coming back to us, to haunt us. Karma.

I am sorry. H.H

You disappoint me.

It is the Dalits who are suffering the maximum in Tamil Nadu. Not the Brahmins. Communities like Saiva Vellalas have also suffered more than the Brahmins.
 
196 if I am not mistaken. if I am not mistaken.

Yes. Blame the British for everything. But there were no caste based parties till 1968 if I am not mistaken. The Dravidian ideology which is divisive was dug up for political purposes. But it did not catch up in the other so called Dravidian states. Let us remember that even being part of India was not accepted by the the major Tamil political party till they came to power. Of course they never wanted independence for India.
Were we so innocent that the British took advantage of us and we allowed it? Sorry sir. I don't beleive so.

During the colonial period everyone wanted to belong to some varna or the other, made nonsensical claims, some went to courts, and what have you in the middle of it all. Brahmins going to courts to allocate varnas to castes. Why wud they do that without examining their own history first.

But anyways to 'brahmins' all southies are shudras, except themselves. What finally happened in the face of hegemony was that a caste-based reservation bill had to be demanded by the justice party, and implemented in order to just allow NBs to get into colonial jobs. Until then, it was difficult for NBs to get a foothold in colonial jobs. This is where all caste-politics, caste-reservations, started. It was under communal GO of 1927 that compartmental reservation of posts (jobs) was made for various communities.

Thanks to brahmins, we started off with caste-based politics. If only brahmins had the attitude of "live and let live" that time itself, things wud have been so different. But no, they had to contest varna claims, go to courts to testify, propagate smrithis, ask everyone to go back to old professions, and in short, mess it up throughly.
 
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I am sorry. Chappi kattu would not do. You have not answered my first question. Have the Adeenams ever issued a statement calling for abolition of the caste system? This I am asking since one of the Adheenams was spearheading the anti-Brahmin movement. The Adheenams are very powerful in Tamil Nadu since they own most of the temples unlike the Mutt which controls only one temple. I have also not seen the statement by any Adheenam or any Adigal condemning the two tumbler system or forcible prevention of Dalits from entering the temples.

Tamil Nadu has the dubious distinction of maximum atrocities against Dalits. Kattai Panchayats and cruel punishment against inter-caste marriages. No involvement of the Brahmins in any of these.
I do not know if anyone has given a statement in the press, or gone about touring with the message that caste-system is to be given up. I only know that aadhinams have started taking in students across castes. And actions at the end of the day speak louder than words.

Addition -
1) its wrong to claim the mutt owns only one temple. Let there be an investigation of its assets in case of any doubt.
2) No use decrying brahmins have no role in atrocities against dalits, katta panchayats, etc, etc now. Those who perpetuated the system in the past simply cannot wash off their hands and claim they have no role in it today.
 
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I am sorry. H.H

You disappoint me.

It is the Dalits who are suffering the maximum in Tamil Nadu. Not the Brahmins. Communities like Saiva Vellalas have also suffered more than the Brahmins.
Sorry sir, i was thinking that you disappoint me. And i disappoint myself. We had to grind the arittha maavu with the same topic again. Anyways, i may want to think that telugu speakers in tamilnadu suffer the most presently and not the saiva pillais, since the former get no reservations and have no means of making a life except depending on education.
 
Brahmins got the jobs because they took to English education before the others. British did not employ Brahmins for their Vedic education. The students of Veda patashalas did not become ICS officers. The other castes which were very happy when the Brahmins were poor and dependent on their patronage became jealous and wanted reservations based on caste. The other castes had done extremely well under the British East India company when they were only trading. They became the commission agents and dubashis for British merchants.

You expect people people to believe the canard that Brahmins denied the right of education to other castes when the entire school system was owned by the British government and the Christian missionaries? Yes . We did not allow Vedic education. But Vedic education never paid well. We were the first to realize that and took to English education.

We changed the rules of the game. Instead of continuing as poor Beggars for ever we decided to improve our lot. Other castes did not like it.

The Justice party consisted of mainly the land owning classes which have been oppressing and exploiting the poor and downtrodden for centuries.

As I said earlier blame it on the British and the Brahmins.

Read up real history. Not the politically doctored ones.
 
Brahmins got the jobs because they took to English education before the others. British did not employ Brahmins for their Vedic education. The students of Veda patashalas did not become ICS officers. The other castes which were very happy when the Brahmins were poor and dependent on their patronage became jealous and wanted reservations based on caste. The other castes had done extremely well under the British East India company when they were only trading. They became the commission agents and dubashis for British merchants.

You expect people people to believe the canard that Brahmins denied the right of education to other castes when the entire school system was owned by the British government and the Christian missionaries? Yes . We did not allow Vedic education. But Vedic education never paid well. We were the first to realize that and took to English education.

We changed the rules of the game. Instead of continuing as poor Beggars for ever we decided to improve our lot. Other castes did not like it.

The Justice party consisted of mainly the land owning classes which have been oppressing and exploiting the poor and downtrodden for centuries.

As I said earlier blame it on the British and the Brahmins.

Read up real history. Not the politically doctored ones.
Please sir, am beyond the advice to read 'real history". I request you to keep the discussion to the point.

I agree brahmins were the first to be employed by the british for their english education. But then they were such that qualified people from other communities cud not even get a foothold in government jobs.

There are quite some stories one gets to hear. Dislike for working alongside shudras, perhaps fear of loosing caste purity, etc. Also sir, instead of 'reading real history', i may wish to hear real history from some old people who recount accounts of caste derision. I think deriding a man as a sudra was not uncommon those days.

To me its a case of ego gone all wrong.
 
Nacchinaarkkiniyan sir,

You might be "in a cave".  But you sure have your eyes, ears and nerves outside.

You have knowledge of history and experience in the present. You talk truth based on what has happened and what is happening. This thread, due to your posts, has given me a good insight. Though I might only be a "week-end or wannabie brahmin", I am happy to learn the truth about actions of brahmins in the past and of course I know their suffering in the present - all brahmins - vedik or "wannabie". Thank you for having taken this effort. Vast majority of people have been reading politically doctored articles, it seems. And the anti-brahmin group had the audacity to tell brahmins that it is for them to "pay the price for their actions in the past" and make today's generation of brahmins guilty.

Leave alone the past. Even today, Dalits suffer more at the hands of "other forward communities" than brahmins. I have first hand experience in this. Aadeenams would never allow a Dalit to enter their mutt but our "reformers" would expect a Dalit to be a Sankaracharya. Even they are aware that Sankaracharya does not hold any position of influence but it pays them politically to still say what they say.
 
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Nacchinarkiniyan Sir,

I think we have moved far beyond the topic, to surnames, genetics, statistics, politics, british..... Its becoming a snow job. A repetition of the same old things.

Kindly excuse me from this. Am not inclined to reply to your posts on this thread anymore.

Regards.
 
Though I am from Tamilnadu State,I left for job to North India in 1953 and living in outskirts of Chennai city from 1996.
Initially I was feeling like a "fish out of water"in the beginning of 1996.The behavior/attitude of people was completely
different from that of people in North( when I was living in different States in North India).Of all the states I found people of West Bengal
were the Best.They are the most cultured people with Humanism.In tamilnadu,it is difficult to find street vendors talk to you with respect.
If they know youare from TB community,You can be sure that you would be treated shabily.
I am unable to agree with the views expressed in post No.89 that Telugu speaking people suffer the most inTN.In fact Ifound that telugu
speaking people are spread throughout taminadu.While they speak Telugu in their house,they generally speak Tamil and it may be difficult
to differentiate whether a person is of Tamil origin or Telugu origin.Telugu people especially from Naidu Community are large in number
and prosperous too.Recently one cine Actor from Telugu Naidu community is a political leader and has become recently Leader Of the Opposition.Gujaratis,Marwaris who are domiciled in TN for generations are also prosperous. In Madipakkam area,I could not locate a single
shop selling 'Electrical Goods" owned by a 'Pachai Tamilian'
All shops are owned by Marwaris who speak good tamil.All electricians including ones from'Pure Tamilians' community work as agents for
commision for these Marwaris and excel in cheating the unsuspecting customers with all types of spurious electrical goods.
 
Though I am from Tamilnadu State,I left for job to North India in 1953 and living in outskirts of Chennai city from 1996.
Initially I was feeling like a "fish out of water"in the beginning of 1996.The behavior/attitude of people was completely
different from that of people in North( when I was living in different States in North India).Of all the states I found people of West Bengal
were the Best.They are the most cultured people with Humanism.In tamilnadu,it is difficult to find street vendors talk to you with respect.
If they know youare from TB community,You can be sure that you would be treated shabily.
I am unable to agree with the views expressed in post No.89 that Telugu speaking people suffer the most inTN.In fact Ifound that telugu
speaking people are spread throughout taminadu.While they speak Telugu in their house,they generally speak Tamil and it may be difficult
to differentiate whether a person is of Tamil origin or Telugu origin.Telugu people especially from Naidu Community are large in number
and prosperous too.Recently one cine Actor from Telugu Naidu community is a political leader and has become recently Leader Of the Opposition.Gujaratis,Marwaris who are domiciled in TN for generations are also prosperous. In Madipakkam area,I could not locate a single
shop selling 'Electrical Goods" owned by a 'Pachai Tamilian'
All shops are owned by Marwaris who speak good tamil.All electricians including ones from'Pure Tamilians' community work as agents for
commision for these Marwaris and excel in cheating the unsuspecting customers with all types of spurious electrical goods.
Regarding Bengalis, imo those with a long history of Buddhism do tend to be more cultured than others...

As regards the telugu speakers in tn, those who managed to get an education, those who started petty businesses (and those who moved into bigger better businesses) over time are the survivors. These make a decent or good living. The rest languish in poverty. Please also note that Naidu is not a community. It is a mere title used by a range of people of numerous different castes. If you are speaking of Vijaykant actor, i doubt his family was the caste they claim to be even 100 years back. From colonial records itself we get clues from stories created of malas, madigas, vanniyars etc all switching into a diff caste.

Reg marwaris and tamilians, i agree to your point of spurious goods. However, the marwaris also generate employment whereever they go -- we must give that point to them. Hope they start making good quality goods and make things nicer for all.
 
Please sir, am beyond the advice to read 'real history". I request you to keep the discussion to the point.

I agree brahmins were the first to be employed by the british for their english education. But then they were such that qualified people from other communities cud not even get a foothold in government jobs.

There are quite some stories one gets to hear. Dislike for working alongside shudras, perhaps fear of loosing caste purity, etc. Also sir, instead of 'reading real history', i may wish to hear real history from some old people who recount accounts of caste derision. I think deriding a man as a sudra was not uncommon those days.

To me its a case of ego gone all wrong.

Whose Ego? It is the Ego of the non-Brahmin landed gentry which took a beating. They could not tolerate the son of a poor Brahmin who was dependent on them for generations and who were treated like beggars becoming a district Collector. They never treated the Brahmins as their social equals. Brahmins were derided as Beggars right from the days of Mahabharata.

The only other community treated as such were the Dalits. Now that Dalits have education and money. The other communities are not able to tolerate that.

The major occupation of the Brahmins during the British days was teaching. Especially in schools. They were not paid well and did not become rich. But they taught generations of students. most of them non-Brahmins. Even a die hard D.K. man like M.R. Radha was all in praise of his Brahmin school teacher.

You want to hear stories. You will hear many stories of how poor non-Brahmin students including Dalits were helped by their Brahmin teachers who themselves were only slightly better off.

Bhimrao started his school education in 1900 in the Government High School, Satara. At that time, his name in the school was Bhiva Ramji Ambavadekar. One Brahmin teacher named Ambedkar in the Satara High School loved Bhimrao very much. As a mark of love and respect for him, Bhimrao started calling himself "Ambedkar". Throughout his life, he remained grateful to the teacher who treated him kindly during his school days.

http://www.buddhiwadi.org/Dr.ambedkar.htm

I
t is sad that the Tamil Brahmins were hounded out of the educational system of Tamil Nadu during the Congress rule. That too with a Chief Minister who was a disciple of a Brahmin leader.
 
Whose Ego? It is the Ego of the non-Brahmin landed gentry which took a beating.

Pardon me for interjecting...

I have been reading this thread for a while as an observer, but I just can't figure out how Happy and You actually DIFFER on any point! Both of you are intellectual giants with libraries of knowledge on your coat pockets and I keep learning new things... however I still can't figure out what you are fighting over! Help!
 
Nacchinarkiniyan Sir,

I think we have moved far beyond the topic, to surnames, genetics, statistics, politics, british..... Its becoming a snow job. A repetition of the same old things.

Kindly excuse me from this. Am not inclined to reply to your posts on this thread anymore.

Regards.

HH,

With all due respects you have been time and again raising the issue of other castes becoming Brahmins. So I am forced to repeat many of my earlier posts.

Personally I would be very happy, in fact jubilant if some one could prove that I am the descendant of a Chandala.

That would prove the my often repeated point that the caste system was not rigid but flexible.

It would also prove that my Chandala ancestors were enterprising enough to move up the caste ladder. Enterprising people moved up. The non-enterprising remained static. That is true of life from time immemorial.

The only honorable exception are the Orthodoxy among all the castes. Be it a Chandala, Brahmin or any other caste. They believed in the caste system. Believed that their caste has a particular tradition and culture. They were keen on maintaining that rather than moving up the caste ladder for pecuniary gains. Great Souls.

By the way according to some Tantrik texts, the best Guru is a Chandala. I have been called a Chandala in this forum.
 
Pardon me for interjecting...

I have been reading this thread for a while as an observer, but I just can't figure out how Happy and You actually DIFFER on any point! Both of you are intellectual giants with libraries of knowledge on your coat pockets and I keep learning new things... however I still can't figure out what you are fighting over! Help!

Who said we are fighting? We are not. Happy Hindu and myself have been friends for too long. We are exchanging ideas. But it is not necessary that I should accept all her ideas/conclusions or she should accept all my ideas/conclusions.

We write because we feel strongly about many things.
 
Whose Ego? It is the Ego of the non-Brahmin landed gentry which took a beating. They could not tolerate the son of a poor Brahmin who was dependent on them for generations and who were treated like beggars becoming a district Collector. They never treated the Brahmins as their social equals. Brahmins were derided as Beggars right from the days of Mahabharata.

The only other community treated as such were the Dalits. Now that Dalits have education and money. The other communities are not able to tolerate that.

The major occupation of the Brahmins during the British days was teaching. Especially in schools. They were not paid well and did not become rich. But they taught generations of students. most of them non-Brahmins. Even a die hard D.K. man like M.R. Radha was all in praise of his Brahmin school teacher.

You want to hear stories. You will hear many stories of how poor non-Brahmin students including Dalits were helped by their Brahmin teachers who themselves were only slightly better off.



http://www.buddhiwadi.org/Dr.ambedkar.htm

I
t is sad that the Tamil Brahmins were hounded out of the educational system of Tamil Nadu during the Congress rule. That too with a Chief Minister who was a disciple of a Brahmin leader.

HH,

With all due respects you have been time and again raising the issue of other castes becoming Brahmins. So I am forced to repeat many of my earlier posts.

Personally I would be very happy, in fact jubilant if some one could prove that I am the descendant of a Chandala.

That would prove the my often repeated point that the caste system was not rigid but flexible.

It would also prove that my Chandala ancestors were enterprising enough to move up the caste ladder. Enterprising people moved up. The non-enterprising remained static. That is true of life from time immemorial.

The only honorable exception are the Orthodoxy among all the castes. Be it a Chandala, Brahmin or any other caste. They believed in the caste system. Believed that their caste has a particular tradition and culture. They were keen on maintaining that rather than moving up the caste ladder for pecuniary gains. Great Souls.

By the way according to some Tantrik texts, the best Guru is a Chandala. I have been called a Chandala in this forum.
Sir, in my view you are doing a snow job. A large part of your info is based on utter falsity. Anyone from the academia wud never take stories which people create of their origins at face value. But that seems to be your approach. To you certain things by researchers are "patently" false. Whereas to me chunks of info churned out by bengali 'brahmins', tamil 'brahmins' are doctored and "patently" false. I may wish to hear, listen, ask, but will come around to a viewpoint only after some study from the academic side...Am not interested in carrying out this conversation. I think we should agree to disagree and move on.

Sure there are good people and bad people in this world. No one becomes good or bad because of caste. Am not interested in who was helped by whom. Or who is jealous of anyone's progress. Or things like that.

You can most certainly find yourself relatives from chamars, scavengers, chandalas, muslims, christians, or whomever else you please. Reminds me of a chitpavan who with his green eyes thot his ancestors were brahmins, only to learn later that his most recent ancestors were the colonial masters. Those who wish to explore can do it themselves. If they have an open mind. And the ability to accept. Otherwise it is better they live in their own deluded origin theories.

Thanks.

Best wishes.
 
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