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Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

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bliss192

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Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங்கள் !

[தலித்தான] கே. கே. ஸகட் என்பவரை ஓராண்டிற்கு சங்கராச்சாரியாரின் இருக்கையில் அமர்த்துங்கள். புனே நகரின் சித்பவான் என்ற தீவிரப் பிராமண வகுப்பினர் நூறுபேர் அவருக்குப் பாதபூஜை செய்யட்டும்.

இப்படி எல்லாம் அம்பேத்கர் பேசி இருக்கிறார் !! ஆச்சரியமாக இருக்கிறதல்லவா?

அம்பேத்கரின் இந்த கருத்து பற்றிய முழு விவரம் இங்கே: தமிழà¯￾ஹிநà¯￾தà¯￾ » [பாகமà¯￾ 09] தலிதà¯￾தை சஙà¯￾கராசà¯￾சாரியாராக ஆகà¯￾கà¯￾à®™à¯￾களà¯￾ !
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
I cud read your post using translit software

But i do not understand what your hyperlink is conveying (text too large to transliterate). The only thing i see that it says why Ambedkar converted to Buddhism..

Are you trying to start a discussion on Ambedkar ??

There are already many threads in this forum where Ambedkar has been discussed...hope you have looked them up before posting this.

As for making a 'dalit' a Shankaracharya, i beleive he will not be a 'dalit' once he takes sanyasam. Because he leaves his caste (occupation) behind (as his purvajanma) when he takes sanyasam..

Please think of days before anything called mutts were established...all sanyasa sampradayas were always open to anyone at that time. All this kula guru thing is just medieval / recent.

Man by nature tends to be like an ape who fights for his territory (most, if not all, primates fight for territory, possibly it evolved from the natural survivial instict). So everyone fights to hold on to what they think is their territory... unfortunately this instinct operates in the 'spiritual' world too.

Idealism is when spirituality is open to anyone based on aptitude, ability, and proclivity, which a person can realise at any point of time in their lives...

Hope someday an ideal society is achieved.
 

DrBarani

New member
I think anyone who has the merit and meets the knowledge qualifications should become junior Acharya. It shouldn't be based on political reasoning. Lets leave behind such biases and use merit at least in one role!

Dalits or even a Christian should be considered on level terms if they learn the requirements. This is why I keep advocating that equality can be achieved either by eradication of caste (difficult to do) or by making it easy for people to convert to any caste they want to (not that difficult). We need Arya Samaj or some other such organization to take up caste-conversion process.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Dr.Barani, while i agree with your post, wud like to add that we are talking about a religion called hindusim. A christian cannot be made a shankaracharya unless he re-converts back into hinduism, and lives the ideals of sanyasam. And i don't think things shd be restricted to the level of junior acharya only.
 

vsubbu48

Active member
Making a dalit Sankaracharya may be too drastic. Changes should be gradual. Initially a Shaiva pillai (because this is a vegetarian caste) can be made Sankaracharya and slowly the post can be made open to other castes in a gradual manner.
 

DrBarani

New member
Dr.Barani, while i agree with your post, wud like to add that we are talking about a religion called hindusim. A christian cannot be made a shankaracharya unless he re-converts back into hinduism, and lives the ideals of sanyasam. And i don't think things shd be restricted to the level of junior acharya only.

Everyone starts as junior acharya and moves up the ladder. That is the normal procedure. No restriction there.

When I mean "meeting the requirements" I mean satisfying the mutt's policies on religious practices. It shouldn't matter how a child was born (whether to dalit or christian parents), but if the child learns to be worthy of an acharya it should be made one.

Can any of you recognize that the greatest carnatic musician M.S.Subbulakshmi was not born Brahmin? How she learned the music and how she performed that many of us hold her larger than life. Hence, birth is no concern at all. It is all about learning.
 

ShivKC

Active member
giving one person a revered position is not going to change the entire setup.

it would have been interesting if that demand was made the other way, ie, 'make brahmins as dalit'.. a good joke of the day too
 

C RAVI

Well-known member
Shiv,

That's truly a punch dialogue...I liked it.

If Brahmins were converted to dalit, they can have the benefits of Indian Government's quota system.

If a dalit been made to learn the required systems of the Mutt and granted the post, we can find patrons of the mutt and the achaaraya in good strength to oppose political vendetta
.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
Making a dalit Sankaracharya may be too drastic. Changes should be gradual. Initially a Shaiva pillai (because this is a vegetarian caste) can be made Sankaracharya and slowly the post can be made open to other castes in a gradual manner.

Saiva Pillais are already heads of mutts like Thiruvavaduthurai Adheenam, Thiruppananthaal Matom, Madurai Adheenam etc., So a beginning can be made with these matoms/adheenams.
 

suraju06

Well-known member
We do not have a single dalit Vice chancellor in any of the universities of Tamilnadu(the dravidian land ruled by dravidians and for dravidians). The majority of these posts are held by Mudaliyars(a forward caste which is politically resourceful always). And we talk about making a dalit a Shankaracharya as if it will immediately uplift the community!!
 

vsubbu48

Active member
Everyone starts as junior acharya and moves up the ladder. That is the normal procedure. No restriction there.

When I mean "meeting the requirements" I mean satisfying the mutt's policies on religious practices. It shouldn't matter how a child was born (whether to dalit or christian parents), but if the child learns to be worthy of an acharya it should be made one.

Can any of you recognize that the greatest carnatic musician M.S.Subbulakshmi was not born Brahmin? How she learned the music and how she performed that many of us hold her larger than life. Hence, birth is no concern at all. It is all about learning.

There is a risk here. The Christian child may learn the scriptures and the practices of the Mutt and still remain a Christian. For example, Jesudass is great devotee of Guruvayurappan but still remains a Christian. In his autobiography, Shri U Ve Swaminaatha Iyer, Tamil Thaathaa, mentions that there was a Christian gentleman called Saverinatha Pillai, who was sporting Vibhuti like a Shaivite, and was also visiting temples with his Shaivite guru. But he remained a Christian.
So a person can recite scriptures and do other things and still remain a Christian. Will it then be acceptable to have a Christian as Head of Sankara Mutt?
 

biswa

New member
A christian cannot be made a shankaracharya unless he re-converts back into hinduism, and lives the ideals of sanyasam.

Nobody can be converted to Hinduism, forget about re-conversion. Similarly nobody can be converted out of their caste or from black to white or from South Asian to African.

People who are capable, do not seek the sanction of established organizations. They create their own, e.g. Sai Baba, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Vivekananda.
 

Nara

Well-known member
I think anyone who has the merit and meets the knowledge qualifications should become junior Acharya..
Folks, how is this to come to pass?

The most revered Acharyas of Sankara Matham, and other Brahminical Mathams as well, have categorically decreed the supremacy of Dharma shashthras that require nothing less than pouring molten lead into the Shudra ear that hears Vedas and the Shudra tongue that dares to recite Vedas to be cut. This is for Shudras, let alone Dalits.

All the Brahminical doctors and physicists and scientists can say whatever they want, but when the tire meets the road, the lot of them rather revere these anachronistic acharyas than oppose their hateful ideology. How many of these no-cost reformists are prepared to let the likes of me criticize these much revered Acharyas by name without being called out as hateful and beyond the pale, a pathetic reversal of roles?

Reform and Brahminism are contradiction in terms. Let the followers of Brahminism respect Dalits as human beings first, let alone allow them become Acharya. Rhetoric is cheap, very easily and conveniently bandied about by those for whom Brahminism is sacrosanct.

Cheers!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Folks, how is this to come to pass?

The most revered Acharyas of Sankara Matham, and other Brahminical Mathams as well, have categorically decreed the supremacy of Dharma shashthras that require nothing less than pouring molten lead into the Shudra ear that hears Vedas and the Shudra tongue that dares to recite Vedas to be cut. This is for Shudras, let alone Dalits.

All the Brahminical doctors and physicists and scientists can say whatever they want, but when the tire meets the road, the lot of them rather revere these anachronistic acharyas than oppose their hateful ideology. How many of these no-cost reformists are prepared to let the likes of me criticize these much revered Acharyas by name without being called out as hateful and beyond the pale, a pathetic reversal of roles?

Reform and Brahminism are contradiction in terms. Let the followers of Brahminism respect Dalits as human beings first, let alone allow them become Acharya. Rhetoric is cheap, very easily and conveniently bandied about by those for whom Brahminism is sacrosanct.

Cheers!


Dear Anna,

I always admired your stand for equality for all.But just a sincere question to you,I hope you would oblige to answer.

Was this your style of thinking all the while or only some time later you began to think this "equality for all" style.
 

renuka

Well-known member
There is a risk here. The Christian child may learn the scriptures and the practices of the Mutt and still remain a Christian. For example, Jesudass is great devotee of Guruvayurappan but still remains a Christian. In his autobiography, Shri U Ve Swaminaatha Iyer, Tamil Thaathaa, mentions that there was a Christian gentleman called Saverinatha Pillai, who was sporting Vibhuti like a Shaivite, and was also visiting temples with his Shaivite guru. But he remained a Christian.
So a person can recite scriptures and do other things and still remain a Christian. Will it then be acceptable to have a Christian as Head of Sankara Mutt?

Good question! Just as we do not want anyone to leave Hinduism and convert to other faiths we should not expect a non Hindu to give up his faith just becos he has adopted a Hindu lifestyle.
Its Ekam Advaitam Brahman and Ekam Sat..by conversion it means we acknoweldge there is more than One.
On technical grounds there cannot be any conversion into Sanathana Dharma cos Dharma can only be practised and adopted as a life style.

I feel if treat a head of a religous institution as a post to be occupied then whoever who is qualified can apply for that post and that person should go along the guidelines of his newly acquired post and not have a hidden agenda.

After all even post like Indra and Manu are to be filled by new candidates after a Kalpa.
 
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Nara

Well-known member
...Was this your style of thinking all the while or only some time later you began to think this "equality for all" style.
Dear Renu, even in my "poorvashrama" I was not quite convinced, but my delusional faith was perfectly willing to concede to the "better" judgement of my SV acharyas. I am not that way any more.

I hope this answers your question, if not let me know.

Renu, in spite of my recent misstep, which I cannot regret more, I value my honesty more than anything else, not even my atheism can come before it.

Cheers!
 
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DrBarani

New member
I feel if treat a head of a religous institution as a post to be occupied then whoever who is qualified can apply for that post and that person should go along the guidelines of his newly acquired post and not have a hidden agenda.

We were discussing about a CHILD, not a grown adult. A child may be born to christian parents, but if the child grows up to be a good Hindu, meets the Mutt's requirements on knowledge and ceremonies, then he should be allowed. Same goes to Dalits or muslim or anyone. Birth cannot be used as an excuse. This is what we brahmins claim when it comes to reservation to defend ourselves. We can't be hypocritical about it when it comes to other issues. And caste conversion should be made easier than religious conversion. This is the only way caste will once again be a label for profession.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renu, even in my "poorvashrama" I was not quite convinced, but my delusional faith was perfectly willing to concede to the "better" judgement of my SV acharyas. I am not that way any more.

I hope this answers your question, if not let me know.

Renu, in spite of my recent misstep, which I cannot regret more, I value my honesty more than anything else, not even my atheism can come before it.

Cheers!

Dear Anna,

I was not doubting your honesty but that was just a question cos I have noticed many people just follow traditions like accepting some "hand me down" stuff.

See I will give you an example, in my family we dont believe in caste system but when it came to my marriage I could see the candidates considered for me by my dad was within the caste i was born in.
But anyway I only agreed to my husband not becos his caste was as in the same category(despite being him being a Non Tamilian and I a Tamilian) but becos his thinking matched mine.

Even at work here sometimes I get Hindu patients very keen to know my origins and caste and when they ask me Doc whats your caste and I will say I am Human caste and they dont ask me anymore much to the dismay to my mum who will tell me.."what will people think of your caste if you say you are Human?"
To which I will just tell my mum i dont want to be classified as a caste so thats my answer.

So I feel even though my parents dont believe in caste system they silently follow what society dictates when it comes to marriage and public opinion.

So I guess most people might not really be ready to break away from the shackles of society.
Thats the reason why I asked you the question anna.

So may be just like how you realized the truth may many more will join you soon.Only time will tell.
 
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renuka

Well-known member
We were discussing about a CHILD, not a grown adult. A child may be born to christian parents, but if the child grows up to be a good Hindu, meets the Mutt's requirements on knowledge and ceremonies, then he should be allowed. Same goes to Dalits or muslim or anyone. Birth cannot be used as an excuse. This is what we brahmins claim when it comes to reservation to defend ourselves. We can't be hypocritical about it when it comes to other issues. And caste conversion should be made easier than religious conversion. This is the only way caste will once again be a label for profession.

Ok I agree with some points.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

Dear Dr.Bharani,

I agree with your views. Any one who has the qualifications can occupy the seat of an Acharya or get qualified as it is being done now. It is not an elected post like President, Prime Minister a Chief minister., where no academic qualification is prescribed.
The following website will take you to an interesting Sri Vaishnava Sri D.A.Joseph, born Christian and following Sri Ramanuja's Visishtadvaita vaishnavism:

D.A.Joseph 's Website

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.
 

happyhindu

Well-known member
Nobody can be converted to Hinduism, forget about re-conversion. Similarly nobody can be converted out of their caste or from black to white or from South Asian to African.

People who are capable, do not seek the sanction of established organizations. They create their own, e.g. Sai Baba, Swami Chinmayananda, Swami Vivekananda.
Unfortunately we are speaking of reformism. So we have to be speaking of established organisations.

Also when we use the word 'established', the question wud come up - established since when. I mentioned in my first post itself, please think of times when there were no mutts and when all sanyasa sampradayas were open to everyone.

In a way its like going back to the original state of sanatana dharma....what we are practicing today has become sanatana-adharma given the hypocricy involved. Especially when we are inherently materialistic and yet consider ourselves more spiritual than the rest just because we are supposed to be born in a particular 'caste'.

Me thinks, caste conversion and religious conversion both should be facilitated. Since occupations depends on each one's aspirations, abilities, and proclivities. There cannot be a rigid 'caste system' under a democracy where people change occupations...

Regards.
 

tbs

Well-known member
hi
saint Kabir.....born to brahmin parents....brought up by muslim.....a perfect hindu sufi santh......i like him very much....a great advaitha

philosopher...mugo kahaam doondare bandhe....mein tho tere pass mein....na mandir ya na masjid....mein tho tere pass mein.....na

kasi mein na kailash mein ....mein tho tere pass mein....beautiful lines....fit for advaitha acharya....


regards
tbs
 

subbudu1

New member
Dear Anna,

I was not doubting your honesty but that was just a question cos I have noticed many people just follow traditions like accepting some "hand me down" stuff.

See I will give you an example, in my family we dont believe in caste system but when it came to my marriage I could see the candidates considered for me by my dad was within the caste i was born in.
But anyway I only agreed to my husband not becos his caste was as in the same category(despite being him being a Non Tamilian and I a Tamilian) but becos his thinking matched mine.

Even at work here sometimes I get Hindu patients very keen to know my origins and caste and when they ask me Doc whats your caste and I will say I am Human caste and they dont ask me anymore much to the dismay to my mum who will tell me.."what will people think of your caste if you say you are Human?"
To which I will just tell my mum i dont want to be classified as a caste so thats my answer.

So I feel even though my parents dont believe in caste system they silently follow what society dictates when it comes to marriage and public opinion.

So I guess most people might not really be ready to break away from the shackles of society.
Thats the reason why I asked you the question anna.

So may be just like how you realized the truth may many more will join you soon.Only time will tell.
Interesting Renuka. What I see is that children break from the shackles of society system of their parents. If the society system is hypocritic break-up is a frequent occurence as it is happening in many families today.

My only question to the youngsters is are you getting influenced by some other kind of society? This question is not specifically adressed to you Renu, but to all youngsters. Why I ask is that I still notice strong feelings of class , education etc among many youngsters though not all. I dont know if youngsters are less hypocritical but there is a different kind of social elitism becoming more and more prominent. Another doubt is when millions of us are starving should we all spend on unwanted things in life?

I would like to see a society that is truly equal where there is no feeling of superiority even based on wealth or education( which is just a consequence of opportunity). I am not comfortable with even social elitism. To begin with all elite clubs which offer membership to only a certain elite must be banned.

Do I sound communist? Does not matter.I am an admirer of VR Krishna iYER. But I believe in moderate living and even if one is rich one should voluntarily invest that money for society rather than spending it on needless luxuries of life. Oherwise the money can get into one's head.


Otherwise the statement that is frequently made- The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer will become true. We will then need to face a civil war.

So for true equality to be attained all dimensions of equality must be spread in society and that can only be facilitated by moderate living!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Interesting Renuka. What I see is that children break from the shackles of society system of their parents. If the society system is hypocritic break-up is a frequent occurence as it is happening in many families today.

My only question to the youngsters is are you getting influenced by some other kind of society? This question is not specifically adressed to you Renu, but to all youngsters. Why I ask is that I still notice strong feelings of class , education etc among many youngsters though not all. I dont know if youngsters are less hypocritical but there is a different kind of social elitism becoming more and more prominent. Another doubt is when millions of us are starving should we all spend on unwanted things in life?

I would like to see a society that is truly equal where there is no feeling of superiority even based on wealth or education( which is just a consequence of opportunity). I am not comfortable with even social elitism. To begin with all elite clubs which offer membership to only a certain elite must be banned.

Do I sound communist? Does not matter.I am an admirer of VR Krishna iYER. But I believe in moderate living and even if one is rich one should voluntarily invest that money for society rather than spending it on needless luxuries of life. Oherwise the money can get into one's head.




Otherwise the statement that is frequently made- The rich are getting richer and the poor poorer will become true. We will then need to face a civil war.

So for true equality to be attained all dimensions of equality must be spread in society and that can only be facilitated by moderate living!


Dear Subbuddu Ji,

Its real hard to say if youngsters are getting influenced by any other society cos some easily give in to peer pressure and this is where parental guidance is warranted.

From what I had noted so far parents that are too rigid and parents that are too lax also face the same problems from children and parents who follow the middle path also face the similar problems with children these days in other words we as parents can only guide to a certain extent.

In Malaysia a study was recently done that despite the mandatory death sentence for drug trafficking still the crime rate in drug offences has not taken a dip and in fact new drug lords organizations mushroom from time to time.

So the next question is how do we go about it?
Do you think that we parents indirect instill materialism in our kids at an early age and also drive them to academic excellence with the sole purpose to earn more but not really instilling human values?

May be we can blame the education system which is too exam and preformance oriented and intelligence is always only based on the marks a person scores.
So i am not suprised to see increase in White Collar crimes these days.
If we teach children study hard so that you can earn more and drive sports cars wont they grow up loooking only for money?

Human values is seldom on our list.
Many parents might teach kids some rituals, pooja,mahabharat and ramayan may be once a week but 24/7 we are trying to make them like Sakuni to deal with the dog eat dog world do you think they will grow up to be Dharmaraj?

Parents these days only brag to each other how much their kids score in exams etc or how much their children earn but how many ever tell about their child's nature for example may be a child who is only an average student but with a good nature do parents tell anyone my son scores high in Gunas?

So are youths the only ones to blame?
 
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sadasivam.sridharan

Active member
A Dalit or a person of any caste can become a guru, not necessarily Sankaracharya,provided he is in a position to uplift common people morally,spiritually and guide them in the process of self enlightenment.If we go through Guru Charitram, we come across many great souls belonging to various castes and communities who have not only dedicated their entire lives for the betterment of fellow citizens but also led a life of very high moral,ethical and spiritual standards that could be a bench mark for others to endeavour to measure up to.
 
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