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Let a Dalit become a Sankaracharya !! தலித்தை சங்கராச்சாரியாராக ஆக்குங

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In old Tamil literature and stone inscriptions till 18th century,we rarely find surnames/caste names. There were castes no doubt, but no caste-indicating surnames. In the Chola inscriptions, except Bhattars, others were simply mentioned by their personal names. Can anybody tell the caste of Pisiranthaiyar, Kambar, Arunagiri or Ottakkoothar from their names. I think that with the spread of British rule, the rulers might have encouraged/forced people to have surnames. Then our forefathers might have chosen glorious names. See all the caste names are glorifying. Mudaliar- being first, Chettiar- sreshti, the greatest, Iyer- the leader, Padaiyatchi- leader of army, Nadar- ruler of the country, devar- god. Was it part of the British divide and rule policy?
Dear Vikrama ji,

Nice to see you online. After a long time.

I think everyone was in a frenzy to change caste, assume "caste names", make varna claims, etc during the colonial period.

But the names themselves imo were not newly devised in the colonial period. Names are old. Caste-framework is old. But people constituting present-day varnas, people using "caste names" are new, imho.
 
There are two kinds of brahmins who go to veda patashala. One are the children of strongminded vaidikas who are clear that this is the only way of living. The other is a set of poor or middle class brahmins who with a sudden inspiration (they are likely to be already orthodox ) want to join a veda pathashala. The latter number is also very small. The latter group especially might include kids who dont do well in studies ( western education ) and their parents consider vaidika a better option than a life of no education. Even this group is orthodox.
In other words there are overall 2 groups who have interest and have sent their children to vaidika education. There is a third group who have taken it as a last resort. Anyway it is not that the third group is to be criticized because some of them pick up vedas really well.

By and large these children continue their education in the veda patashala because they are convinced by their parents that they are doing a noble thing, and some kind of self inspiration is sprouted in them to continue forward. Nothing can be completed for so many years without a certain degree of self interest generating at some point.

Having said this, the vedic education over course of its learning is not seen by the students as just a learning module for professional achievement. There are likely to be children at two ends of the spectrum. But I am talking of the broad average.

If the vedas have truth in them, then it should not be pursued for the sake of making income as a primary basis. I know many Vaidikas who should be respected in this regard. Everybody needs food and shelter but there are true vaidikas who see this not as just an occupation but as the very centre of their life and future generations.

Let me hand it out that it is because there were many vaidikas especially in the past who had this passion, that people want to hire only such vaidikas as who are born brahmins. It is the image gained in the past not necessarily having to do with the current lot. But a few in the present continue to give hope to the general society that there are still sincere vaidikas somewhere. Imagine the Vaidikas of the present generation , for nothing less than a 1000 years their ancestors have been more or less involved in vedic study. This is not a mean achievement. It needs to be cheered regardless of how skeptical one is about the value of vedas in modern life. This kind of continuation would not have been possible had there been no strong interest fostered in their families, an interest much much more than a desire to excel in a profession and make an earning.

Lest the forum members start feeling elated too soon in pride about being brahmins, I only have my praises for the sincerity of vaidikas not the wannabe .
 
Bengali Brahmins unlike the Non-Brahmins of Tamil Nadu do not have the necessity for creating or re-writing history. A number of Academic studies have been published. The Bengali Brahmins do not need fraudulent researches to justify their position.

They have achieved their position on their own merit. They have not achieved their position because of caste. In fact the dominant caste in Bengal are the Kayasthas and not the Brahmins.

Please do not drag Brahmins of other states to the political caste researches and patently fraudulent theories of the South Indians especially of Tamil Nadu.

By the way Bhatt is a very common surname among the Kashmiri Muslims.
 
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Bengali Brahmins unlike the Non-Brahmins of Tamil Nadu do not have the necessity for creating or re-writing history. A number of Academic studies have been published. The Bengali Brahmins do not need fraudulent researches to justify their position.

They have achieved their position on their own merit. They have not achieved their position because of caste. In fact the dominant caste in Bengal are the Kayasthas and not the Brahmins.

Please do not drag Brahmins of other states to the political caste researches and patently fraudulent theories of the South Indians especially of Tamil Nadu.
On the contrary, it may even be possible that claims of brahmins about their own origins are fraudulent. Well, sir since you spoke of bengali surnames, we discussed 'brahmins' of other states.

Even if political caste researchers make "patently fraudulent claims", it cannot hold water if genetic studies do not prove it. In the case of the bengali brahmins mentioned in the study, actually we were talking about TBs as well : http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6434-consanguineous-marriages-2.html#post78532

Regards.
 
Genetic studies. How good are they?

They have been used in medical studies.

But in dealing with heterogeneous groups like Tamil and Bengali Brahmins they fail. The Midanapore Dakshnitiya Brahmins who are from South India would not be reflected unless the sample consists of Brahmins from all regions. The Brahmins of east Bengal are different from the Brahmins of West Bengal. The Brahmins of the Southern districts of Tamil Nadu are different from the Brahmins of Tanjore. I have posted about the vast difference between the Pandi Nadu Brahmins and the Chola Brahmins. That is the reason why the Pandi Nadu Brahmins even when they faced a drought preferred to move to Travancore than to Tanjore.

Has anyone done a genetic study of the Vadamas of Tanjore, the Brahacharanams of Thirunelveli, The Deekshidars of Chidambarm, the vattimas and mukkanis and of course the Gurukkal and found that they are all genetically the same?
 
Genetic studies. How good are they?

They have been used in medical studies.
It is not in the scope of this discussion to go into the merits or demerits of genetic studies. But i always notice a particular tendency in some people, esp bloggers elsewhere. The moment a genetic study contradicts their claims, they will start casting aspersions that genetics studies are no good, the results obtained from genetic studies are not true, such reports are false, etc, etc.

But in dealing with heterogeneous groups like Tamil and Bengali Brahmins they fail.
How sir?

The Midanapore Dakshnitiya Brahmins who are from South India would not be reflected unless the sample consists of Brahmins from all regions. The Brahmins of east Bengal are different from the Brahmins of West Bengal. The Brahmins of the Southern districts of Tamil Nadu are different from the Brahmins of Tanjore. I have posted about the vast difference between the Pandi Nadu Brahmins and the Chola Brahmins. That is the reason why the Pandi Nadu Brahmins even when they faced a drought preferred to move to Travancore than to Tanjore.

Has anyone done a genetic study of the Vadamas of Tanjore, the Brahacharanams of Thirunelveli, The Deekshidars of Chidambarm, the vattimas and mukkanis and of course the Gurukkal and found that they are all genetically the same?
Well, lets hope there is a study soon on that.

Regards.
 
.... Reformists have appeared in every age to correct this anomaly, but not succeeded fully.
Dear B sir, this is very true, every time there were reform attempts, soon thereafter, the brahmin orthodoxy came roaring back to impose brahminical order.

All this talk about making a Dalit as Sankaracharya is, IMO, just feel-good talk for ஆத்துல ஒரு கால் சேத்துல ஒரு கால் Brahmins. The orthodox, and even many ஆத்துல ஒரு கால் சேத்துல ஒரு கால்s, will never allow it. Even more importantly, no Dalit will be interested. The educated Dalits have nothing but contempt for Brahminism and the uneducated ones are too deferential and for them it is too blasphemous to even imagine in those lines.

A more practical thing to do is to befriend and include all sorts of people of both genders in day-to-day rituals of TBs in their own homes. This itself is a pipe-dream and that is sad.

Cheers!
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
genetic studies assumes a lot of geographical evidence pertaining to present populace inhabitants.migration patterns kept shifting all the time.anyone anywhere who has knowledge skill balance automatically has a label called brahmana.that by birth it kept growing owing to least line of resistance and the rulers encouraged such growth because it is easier to rule,when identities are marked and profiled.my 2 cents.also a dalit can become a sankara acharya as well a jeer in some prevailing sects.dalit itself is a label created by humanity as are other labels like brahmana kshatriya vaishya shudra.in todays world,different nomenclature is used to profile or distinguish amongst humanities breeds.
 
H

Harini

Guest
Better idea will be to make a Sankaracharya as Ambethkar. Brahmin should be allowed to take top position in DK party. It is high time that Veeramani steps down and leave the party to JJ for her contribution to Tamilnadu as follower of EVR is much more appreciable than that of Veeramani. But somehow the reformist thinking have died in DK after EVR and only leadership of JJ can kindle such initiatives
 
The educated Dalits have nothing but contempt for Brahminism and the uneducated ones are too deferential and for them it is too blasphemous to even imagine in those lines.
Sir, i was thinking it is the opposite (the uneducated NBs have contempt for brahmanism, while the contempt of educated NBs may be tempered-down sort, but contempt it is nevertheless).

Also was thinking the more aware people get (irrespective of caste), the lesser their contempt, prejudice, etc is likely to be. Then again, there is this generation difference. The older ones will never accept any form of explanation contradictory to those in which they have been raised. The younger ones tend to be more receptive..

A more practical thing to do is to befriend and include all sorts of people of both genders in day-to-day rituals of TBs in their own homes. This itself is a pipe-dream and that is sad.

Cheers!
Again sir, it wud depend on the interest of people, from both Bs and NBs. Not all may be interested from both sides. Also it wud depend on the place, prevailing situation, etc.
 
N

nachi naga

Guest
Better idea will be to make a Sankaracharya as Ambethkar. Brahmin should be allowed to take top position in DK party. It is high time that Veeramani steps down and leave the party to JJ for her contribution to Tamilnadu as follower of EVR is much more appreciable than that of Veeramani. But somehow the reformist thinking have died in DK after EVR and only leadership of JJ can kindle such initiatives

j is a staunch believer of god and has the backing of many faith based initiators.its the past performance and treatment done by brahmins that present generations are paying for,when none in present generation did anything what was done in past.the weakest group and disunited lot is the intellectual class and that is why others are making forays into religious folds.its like market share and who is able to corner it with mass appeal to sell their brand of religion,soon the majority will become minority,imho.
 
HH,

You have been quoting one too many genetic studies to prove some points.

The merits and demerits of genetic studies does enter the picture here.

When you talk about a Tamil Brahmin in any genetic study, who is he? Is he a Vadama of Tanjore, Brahacharanams of Thirunelveli, Deekshidars of Chidambarm, Vattimas Mukkano or Gurukkal? How can anyone club all these because Tamil Brahmin are not genetically a homogeneous group.

Such a study is blatantly false. It is not possible to take a sample of all the groups of Brahmin spread over Tamil Nadu. Even in one family all the members do not genetically belong to the same group. I have relations who are of the colour of a Thai or Chinese. Then there are members who are black. Can any Tamil Brahmin family claim that all its members (including extended family) are fair? No family can. When I attend meetings of Tamil Brahmins, I find that the majority are not fair. Compare this with the general impression that people have that the Tamil Brahmins are all fair.

Then the claim that all Dalits are black. Babasaheb Ambedkar was far fairer than Babu Rajendra Prasad who was a Brahmin. The Thiyyas of North Kerala are very fair. Many of the Dalits in Bengal are very fair.

There is a general impression that North Indians are fair. But the vast majority of the people in Bihar and Bengal are not fair. The only states where all the people are fair are Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir.

Genetic studies are dangerous because they are being done for racial profiling.
 
H

Harini

Guest
j is a staunch believer of god and has the backing of many faith based initiators.its the past performance and treatment done by brahmins that present generations are paying for,when none in present generation did anything what was done in past.the weakest group and disunited lot is the intellectual class and that is why others are making forays into religious folds.its like market share and who is able to corner it with mass appeal to sell their brand of religion,soon the majority will become minority,imho.
It is said that MK Iyer was showered with divine blessings for all that his ancestors did as service to God in temple. Also his present sins are also being rewarded by the Courts in India! Brahmins who are good also will be rewarded imho
 
HH,

You have been quoting one too many genetic studies to prove some points.

The merits and demerits of genetic studies does enter the picture here.

When you talk about a Tamil Brahmin in any genetic study, who is he? Is he a Vadama of Tanjore, Brahacharanams of Thirunelveli, Deekshidars of Chidambarm, Vattimas Mukkano or Gurukkal? How can anyone club all these because Tamil Brahmin are not genetically a homogeneous group.

Such a study is blatantly false. It is not possible to take a sample of all the groups of Brahmin spread over Tamil Nadu. Even in one family all the members do not genetically belong to the same group. I have relations who are of the colour of a Thai or Chinese. Then there are members who are black. Can any Tamil Brahmin family claim that all its members (including extended family) are fair? No family can. When I attend meetings of Tamil Brahmins, I find that the majority are not fair. Compare this with the general impression that people have that the Tamil Brahmins are all fair.

Then the claim that all Dalits are black. Babasaheb Ambedkar was far fairer than Babu Rajendra Prasad who was a Brahmin. The Thiyyas of North Kerala are very fair. Many of the Dalits in Bengal are very fair.

There is a general impression that North Indians are fair. But the vast majority of the people in Bihar and Bengal are not fair. The only states where all the people are fair are Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir.

Genetic studies are dangerous because they are being done for racial profiling.
We already had a discussion on fair and black recently in the Aryan invasion confusion thread - http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/general-discussions/6498-aryan-invasion-confusion.html

It is ignorance to think that genetic studies are based on skin color. So far i have not come across genetic studies taking skin color into account.

Yamaka sir thot he may have a project on hand based on skin color alleles, but i suppose counter-arguments by Dr.Barani, subbudu sir and myself may have given him some points to ponder over.

It is highly misleading and blatantly false to say genetic tests are being conducted for racial profiling. And i condemn that with all the will i can muster.

In tests, participants who are Vadagalais and Thenkalais identify themselves as Iyengars. Similarly Vadamas, Brahacharanams, Astasahasrams, Vathimas, etc, identify themselves as Iyers.

It is a beleif that all Iyers are a homogenous set and names like vadama, brahacharanam, etc are only geographical names . Such an idea was propagated by a revered seer himself. [imo, such a claim is incorrect, but i will let that be].

Researchers conducting genetic tests merely take the terms Iyer or Iyengar into account. And not Deekshitar, Vadama, etc.

Geographical location plays a role and everyone knows it. So terms like Tanjore Kallar, are being used in order to signify groups of a particular geographical region in whom some markers, alleles are common.

Even Cavalli-Sforza was misled by caste claims, brahmin claims, etc. Please read the book "History and Geography of Genes". He led a team which conducted studies worldwide. His team found that brahmins of various locations show no similarity. I suppose he was unaware of tribal priests being elevated to brahminhood in their respective geographical locations.
 
Dr.Barani,

I request you to make a general posts for the benefit of Shri Nacchinarkiniyan and other readers why genetic tests are done. And why results can vary across tests. If i made such a post, possibly he may not belive me. All i can say to Nacchinarkiniyan Sir is this -- the whole idea is to battle disease. The origin of man is rooted in the origin of disease, genes that cause us to be susceptible to certain diseases. Finding common groups makes it easier so that certain drugs can be designed for certain groups sharing susceptibility to a common disease. Unfortunately in the case of India, its caste system was misleading and created confusion for genetists.

Regards.
 
HH,

I am sorry. Your posts often talk about Tribals and other castes being elevated to Brahmins. This is true of not only of Brahmins but also other castes. But why are you making this point in all your posts? How does this affect the present day Brahmins?

See the claims being made by other castes on Wikipedia. There are many castes who claim to be Brahmins though they are now classified as OBC. Many claim to be Kshatriyas. Every caste including Dalits make such claims. Brahmins are no exception.

Even Cavalli-Szforza was misled by caste claims, brahmin claims, etc. Please read the book "History and Geography of Genes". He led a team which conducted studies worldwide. His team found that brahmins of various locations show no similarity. I suppose he was unaware of tribal priests being elevated to brahminhood in their respective geographical locations.​

This proves my point. There is no one called a uniform or average Brahmin. Since the Tamil Brahmins have migrated/migrating since the last 400 years the geographical location has no relevance to them. So the genetic studies fail.

I am professionally qualified. I have done a lot of marketing studies. But when we collect samples we try to overcome the deficiencies of the sampling system. The samples are random. The population has to be uniform. Otherwise the study fails. I can not collect a sample in Bengal, do a study, and apply it to Tamil Nadu.

If you do a study of a Brahmins in some place in Tamil Nadu and compare it with Brahmins in some place in Bengal and if you find it similar, then you conclude that some Brahmin groups in Tamil Nadu are genetically similar to some of the Brahmin groups in Bengal.

But to say that all Tamil Brahmins are similar to Bengali Brahmins is wrong.

If some Brahmin groups in Bengal are genetically similar to the Tribals in that area you conclude that some of the Brahmins have descended from Tribals.

But to say that all Bengali Brahmins are descended from Tribals is wrong.

This study is a glaring example. Collecting a sample in Delhi and applying the result to the whole of India.
 
Talking about Medical tests when I see a streaming headline saying that Indians are more prone to Diabetes, I check the place from where the samples are taken. If it is done in U.K most of the sampled Indians would be Gujaratis and Punjabis who form the majority of the Indians in U.K.

I would not worry much because the Tamil Brahmin is genetically different from Gujaratis and Punjabis. Their food habits and life style are different.

This is a problem which is germane to statistical sampling and analysis.

This does not in any way lower the quality of the study. It is one of inherent drawbacks in all such studies. And the person who uses such studies and draws conclusion from them should be aware of this inherent drawback.
 
HH,

I am sorry. Your posts often talk about Tribals and other castes being elevated to Brahmins. This is true of not only of Brahmins but also other castes. But why are you making this point in all your posts? How does this affect the present day Brahmins?

See the claims being made by other castes on Wikipedia. There are many castes who claim to be Brahmins though they are now classified as OBC. Many claim to be Kshatriyas. Every caste including Dalits make such claims. Brahmins are no exception.


This proves my point. There is no one called a uniform or average Brahmin. Since the Tamil Brahmins have migrated/migrating since the last 400 years the geographical location has no relevance to them. So the genetic studies fail.

I am professionally qualified. I have done a lot of marketing studies. But when we collect samples we try to overcome the deficiencies of the sampling system. The samples are random. The population has to be uniform. Otherwise the study fails. I can not collect a sample in Bengal, do a study, and apply it to Tamil Nadu.

If you do a study of a Brahmins in some place in Tamil Nadu and compare it with Brahmins in some place in Bengal and if you find it similar, then you conclude that some Brahmin groups in Tamil Nadu are genetically similar to some of the Brahmin groups in Bengal.

But to say that all Tamil Brahmins are similar to Bengali Brahmins is wrong.

If some Brahmin groups in Bengal are genetically similar to the Tribals in that area you conclude that some of the Brahmins have descended from Tribals.

But to say that all Bengali Brahmins are descended from Tribals is wrong.

This study is a glaring example. Collecting a sample in Delhi and applying the result to the whole of India.
Sir, i wud love to speak of various tribes, castes, how things evolved for everyone, etc (and i have written about other castes in this forum too). However, this being a forum for Bs, i tend to write more about Bs. Genetic studies do not fail just because there is no info on geographical region. No one expects populations to be uniform either. Also sir, we cannot make generalized blanket statements. No one can say every single TB is similar to bengali brahmins, mahisyas, vagdis. We only generate limited inferences for a given sample. I wud sincerely suggest not to compare some silly studies published in TOI with some active indepth research in some other subjects elsewhere. True there is a long way to go in genetics, but we are getting there with innovations in technology..
 

kunjuppu

Active member
Talking about Medical tests when I see a streaming headline saying that Indians are more prone to Diabetes, I check the place from where the samples are taken. If it is done in U.K most of the sampled Indians would be Gujaratis and Punjabis who form the majority of the Indians in U.K.

I would not worry much because the Tamil Brahmin is genetically different from Gujaratis and Punjabis. Their food habits and life style are different.

This is a problem which is germane to statistical sampling and analysis.

This does not in any way lower the quality of the study. It is one of inherent drawbacks in all such studies. And the person who uses such studies and draws conclusion from them should be aware of this inherent drawback.

nacchi,

gujju and punjabis are as different in india and bengus and tambrams. or as tambrams and vanniars.

but what i think happens, is once we leave the shores, and settle down especially in the west, within a generation, we lose our separate caste or language identity as referenced in india.

the children's food habits change, even if they are vegetarians. more of milk, pasta, sweets, and varieties, which till recently, were unknown in india. more sugar and refined food. these wreak havoc on our health.

i see each visit to india, and the supermarkets. amazed at the variety. also concerned at the proliferation of packaged ready made food.

for example sir, my grand mother made the pickles and murukkus. my mother made only the murukkus. she was fascinated by 777 and later ambika pickles. nowadays everyone goes to grand sweets to get pickles and murukkus or whatnot.

what i am trying to say, is that our store bought packaged ready to eat dhal, or sabji, has more salt, preservatives, and all the nutrients killed. no different than the canned or packaged foods in the west.

so, in another 50 years, when a study is made that urban india has an unacceptable heart attack rate, it could be across all castes and creeds, but only qualification, is the word 'urban'.

whether we like it or not, our food habits are changing. and becoming monotonously standardized, to the extent, regional cooking is dying, including my own favourite palghat style cuisine. :(

thank you.
 
Talking about Medical tests when I see a streaming headline saying that Indians are more prone to Diabetes, I check the place from where the samples are taken. If it is done in U.K most of the sampled Indians would be Gujaratis and Punjabis who form the majority of the Indians in U.K.

I would not worry much because the Tamil Brahmin is genetically different from Gujaratis and Punjabis. Their food habits and life style are different.

This is a problem which is germane to statistical sampling and analysis.

This does not in any way lower the quality of the study. It is one of inherent drawbacks in all such studies. And the person who uses such studies and draws conclusion from them should be aware of this inherent drawback.
Sir, i really wonder how different a tamil brahmin is, from other population groups, but i will let that be. I find that our discussion is veering towards genetic studies now. Hence i shall leave it here.

This discussion was about vedic studies being opened up for all. I do not beleive "brahmins" or any other "varna" dropped from the sky. What we see is occupational organization across various tribes, which got created into what came to be called 'caste'. In effect, the groups that entitles themselves as "brahmins" originated from tribal organizations and re-organizations, just like anyone else. And these organizations have always been changing.

It may be a good idea for a mutt which took the lead in making varna claims under colonial period, to start off with making the requisite 'reforms'. I shall end this conversation by saying i firmly beleive all humans have the right to have dignity, and the right to pursue education that suits their interests. There cannot be a rigid-caste system propagated in a democracy.
 
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Like I said there should be no problem if you do not generalize the result of your genetic studies.

Whatever may be the innovation in technology, problems in statistical sampling remain.

Sampling (statistics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sampling bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I do not understand what you are saying sir. I do not know how much you are aware of statistical methods used in genetics, surely you must be aware of ways of dealing with sampling bias. Its not a good idea to apply statistical models used in marketing to genetics. Anyways, i do not think this discussion was about genetics, technology or statistics. I have concluded my discussion on the main point with the above post. Thanks.
 
Sir, i really wonder how different a tamil brahmin is, from other population groups, but i will let that be. I find that our discussion is veering towards genetic studies now. Hence i shall leave it here.

This discussion was about vedic studies being opened up for all. I do not beleive "brahmins" or any other "varna" dropped from the sky. What we see is occupational organization across various tribes, which got created into what came to be called 'caste'. In effect, the groups that entitles themselves as "brahmins" originated from tribal organizations and re-organizations, just like anyone else. And these organizations have always been changing.<br>

It may be a good idea for a mutt which took the lead in making varna claims under colonial period, to start off with making the requisite 'reforms'. I shall end this conversation by saying i firmly beleive all humans have the right to have dignity, and the right to pursue education that suits their interests. There cannot be a rigid-caste system propagated in a democracy.

No Tamil Brahmin believes that he has dropped from the sky. If some one says so he is crazy to say the least.

Unfortunately you do seem to be expecting the Mutts to carry out reforms.

Frankly the Tamil Brahmin community never expected that of the Mutts. We never bothered about the thinking of the Mutt

1. When we joined Engineering colleges. A perfect Sudra trade.

2. When we bacame money Lenders or traders. A Vaisya trade.

3. When we stopped child marriages in the community.

4. When we started getting Widows married and now Divorces and Divorcee marriage.

5. When we migrated in droves across the seas.

I can go on and on.

We are not Catholics for whom the Pope decides every thing. Our Mutts have no power. They can not ex-communicate anyone. It is true that we have a nominal affiliation to the Mutts. But that is restricted to visiting the Mutts, making donations and performing Patha Pujai to the Madathipathi. We do revere our Acharyas especially great men like Paramacharya for their religious attainments.

Others have started the projection of a Madathipathi as the head of the Brahmin community. This is necessary because every one knows that the Mutts are against all reforms and it is easier to attack him. Then you start believing your own propaganda.

There are hundreds of Hindu religious Mutts all over India. Many of them have non-Brahmins as madathipathis. I do not think any one of these madathipathis have spoken out against the caste system or have come out in favour of social reforms.
 

kunjuppu

Active member
happy,

re your post #71:

i think eventually demographics will win, and dictate how caste and casteism is played out in our society.

caste does not exist among the hindu diaspora, whether it be 2 centuries removed trinidad, or current canada or usa. the next generation, by virtue of choosing their own, eschews caste for looks & prospects & companionship. the parents meekly or proudly accept this. they have no choice.

in india, the society will decide, whether veda patasalas will be thrown open to everyone. or they can cut their nose, to spite their face, and close those patasalas down. like what is happening in palakkadu ('no theeyan's allowed!')

among the most prominent christian theologists, we find jews, and vice versa. there are prominent whites who are versed in islam. also hinduism, though not to such extent.

when we move the study of religion to the universities, it becomes an academic exercise, shorn of the religiosity. so we can assume there will be vedic scholars in the future. not necessarily brahmins though. it may be even good that this happens, for there will an objectivity, shorn of reverence in their studies. ofcourse, many hindus will not like it, but i think, it will be good.

when i was a kid, i used to enjoy the abridged version of the bible for the stories. to my catholic classmates it was class exercise, and they could find no fun, and thought it strange that i should lap up those stories with interest :) and so it goes.

ultimately, today's world is not impacted the least, as to whether we come from central asia or homegrown or from timbuctoo.

to some it is an exercise of the mind. to me, it is immaterial, as deep in me, i do not know, or care where my ancestors came from. i know my lineage only upto my grandparents. even my parents are gone, and there is no imprint left of my family in india. it is so easy, quick, that it is sometimes unnerving.

when someone tries to track the bloodstream origins of an american, most will be perplexed. with each generation, so many nationalities blend. only truth is that it is uniquely 'american'.

recently there was an addition to my family - the cute baby girl has goanese (probably portuguese genes thrown in there) & naidu/chettiar on the mother's side, and north indian/tambram on the father's side.

the young parents, dressed up in veshti/pudavai today's style, had namakaranam with all the religious trapping of a tambram household (the father's mother being a tambram, and the dominant & assertive elder in this complex geneology, with the goanese grandpa on the other side, the most passive). nobody even commented when a mascarenhas or lobo was mentioned among the grand parents names. except the vaathiar had trouble pronouncing it :)

nobody even considered the different origins of the genes. to them all, it was a happy occassion of a healthy cheerful bonnie baby. an indian. in this case, a hindu.

maybe it is time, the rest of us, took a leaf from this family's book, and move on.

thank you good lady.

God Bless.
 
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No Tamil Brahmin believes that he has dropped from the sky. If some one says so he is crazy to say the least.

Unfortunately you do seem to be expecting the Mutts to carry out reforms.

Frankly the Tamil Brahmin community never expected that of the Mutts. We never bothered about the thinking of the Mutt

1. When we joined Engineering colleges. A perfect Sudra trade.

2. When we bacame money Lenders or traders. A Vaisya trade.

3. When we stopped child marriages in the community.

4. When we started getting Widows married and now Divorces and Divorcee marriage.

5. When we migrated in droves across the seas.

I can go on and on.

We are not Catholics for whom the Pope decides every thing. Our Mutts have no power. They can not ex-communicate anyone. It is true that we have a nominal affiliation to the Mutts. But that is restricted to visiting the Mutts, making donations and performing Patha Pujai to the Madathipathi. We do revere our Acharyas especially great men like Paramacharya for their religious attainments.

Others have started the projection of a Madathipathi as the head of the Brahmin community. This is necessary because every one knows that the Mutts are against all reforms and it is easier to attack him. Then you start believing your own propaganda.

There are hundreds of Hindu religious Mutts all over India. Many of them have non-Brahmins as madathipathis. I do not think any one of these madathipathis have spoken out against the caste system or have come out in favour of social reforms.
We have been thru this several times in this forum. No one really cares about who wants nominal affiliation or not, who wants to change his habits or not, etc. This particular mutt did openly preach things that were incorrect, inappropriate and ineffective, to say the least. And caused / aggravated the B-NB divide. Beyond this am not willing to drag on the discussion more. However, your last para is wrong. In tamilnadu, heads of aadheenams now take in students across castes.
 
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