Intra human Marriages

[goundamani]

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After reading the postings of vayalan's and kashyap,for a moment I myself thought that I had posted something very bad.Then going through my postings, I found that the 'major sin', which I had commited was to write in support of love marriages....

I only wonder that in this time and age when rest of the philosophies and ideologies are so way ahead , some people really can live with such a mindset. I think it is the sign of a community becoming insular.When people sit inside their houses without opening doors or windows, even the faintest blowing of breeze would be considered as a threat.

Going through the arguments pur forward in this thread, apart from abusing me and putting forward ludicruous arguments like 'remove reservation for acceptance of love marriages', I am still waiting for some concrete arguments. I wont be too surprised if more verbal abuses flow.Because I know that if you have nothing to argue, then the next bext tactic is to start abusing the opponent.:evil:

Just going through the personal attacks, I was again not too surprised with the quality of the words.People go to the lengths of writing abusive stories about my unborn daughter, accuse me of being born in 'reserved caste' , marry of my unborn daughter to a toilet cleaner named lenin....

Again thinking about this story many truths come to my mind. Vayalan hates me so much that he wants the worst possible fate to befall me.And what is that worst possible fate? My unborn daughter "marrying a toilet cleaner"..In vayalan's mind probably this is the worse thing that can happen to an upper caste Hindu. His enemy's daughter marries a pulaya/sudhra/chandala and becomes an untouchable....

Probably in christianity this is the equilant of the unforgivable sin, abusing the holy spirit.You do this, not even god can save you.In Islam, it is shirk, making somebody equal to Allah.In Hinduism we have this, being a sudhra, or associating with 33% of India's humanity itself is the worst possible sin.

Anyhow I came to know that casteism, untouchability and such mindsets still exist in 21st century. Thanks to internet, what lies in the deepest corners of people's mind comes out in it's true form.:evil:

 

[Vaylan]

I am sorry that you feel I abused you in any way. If you took a second to actually read what others are saying ( instead of running away and hiding under a new tactic each time ), you will start beginning to understand. I guess your latest tactic is to play the victim.

I am quoting your exact words in my posts, but you always want to twist my ( and others' words ) to say ludicruous nonsense.

What are you saying - "Lovers should be allowed to marry. No caste, status, nothing.End of story."

I pointed out a hypothetical story ( apdina enna theriyuma ?? ) where your daughter wants marries a sanitation worker. To illustrate how moronic your idea is - sometimes you have to guide your children in doing right and wrong.

Do not flatter yourself by believing I hate you. I felt a lot of irritation, like the sort one feels at the antics of a non-funny comedian, but now I feel plain pity.

Also I feel there is no use in talking to chaps like you - it's a waste of time like Kashyap said. So, feel free to continue your nonsense.

Added later - Lenin is a sanitation worker, not a "toilet cleaner". Please learn to first respect dignity of labour. Then you can be the high priest of social engineering.

 

[Vaylan]

I did not want to continue this correpondence, but since it has gone this far into the muck, what's a few more posts - arty:

I noticed a very interesting thing - nowhere in the Lenin love story was Lenin's caste mentioned. Nor was Goonda Manikyam's caste mentioned as upper caste. In fact no specific caste was mentioned for her.

However, Sri Goundamani assumed that " ( I quote his own words " an upper caste Hindu....daughter marries a pulaya/sudhra/chandala and becomes an untouchable....)

According to Sri Goundamani - A sanitation worker MUST BE a pulaya/sudhra/chandala. No other caste is supposed to do that job.

Is this not CASTEISM ?
Is this not RACISM ?
Is this not a crime against the 33% of Indian population, to automatically throw them to the position of "toilet cleaner" ?
Is this not indicative of the reprehensible mindset, that is hidden behind the so-called revolutionary views ?

It is funny how indeed, thanks to internet, what lies in the deepest corners of people's mind comes out in it's true form.:evil:

 

[goundamani]

Vayalan,

A toilet cleaner is an occupation which is the bottom most job in the hierarchy of varnashrama.When a person who belongs to the caste which is in the top most hierarchy of this ladder quotes the toilet cleaner example, certainly it will be interesting.

Following is my account on what went through your mind.I understand that nobody can really understand other person's mind.But still this is my perception.It might be totally wrong,I do not deny that.But still this is my perception.

In the story which you wrote you had a very interesting situation.You want to retaliate very offensively to somebody's posting.So you plan to post a story.The worst consequence should befall that person given in that story.Remember that you are in the top most hierarchy of varna ladder.So the worst fate that can befall your enemy is his daughter marrying a toilet cleaner, the lowest job in the varna hierarchy.Bingo, occupation for this character is chosen.

So you comeup with a fictitious toilet cleaner character.Then you as a script writer should give him a name.You zero in on the name Lenin.

Why Lenin?

According to you Lenin is a commie, godless atheist and a sworn enemy of God.Thus he is a despicable person.And according to you the followers of Lenin in tamilnadu are kachchada who live in slums, who have jobs like toilet cleaning and janitor,sanitation jobs.And it is given that this character belongs to "reserved category"(quote caste).

So you come up with the name lenin and give it to this toilet cleaner.The stereotype of toilet cleaners in your mind refuses to accept that they might be pious, believing hindus.No..that piousness and peity are reserved for people who are higher in the varna order.

Next character of Lenin.Of course he should be a drunkard, who beats and tortures his wife.Can toilet cleaners behave otherwise?Godless, reserved category, commie toilet cleaners should definitely be drunkards and wife beaters,right?:biggrin1:

And thus jumps out your story,which was totally based on your stereotypes, biases and subjectivities.

Again let me tell you that this is my imagination, and it might purely be wrong or right.You really might have had these subjectivities or not.Who knows?

Probably you know...you can deny it completely.But you know the truth, don't you?arty:

Maybe it is my turn to write a story.But I bet that my story is closer to reality than yours.:cheer2:

 

[Shanti Brahm]

In Defence of Goundamani

I think too much is being made out of fear of inter-caste marriage. There seems to be too many emotional reactions to Goundamani's posts that seem unwarrented.

Hariharan has asked for a Brahmin woman's perspective so I thought I will write. But this is only one person's perspective. I agree with Goundamani that there is much oppression in Indian community. But much that Goundamani calls oppression of women, I don't think is oppression.

For instance, it is very natural for a woman to want to worship her husband. A woman naturally wants to feel this feeling with a man. It could be because he is a very good and decent person, it could be because he has achieved something of value, it could be that he is very dedicated to his work or good in his occupation, or it could be as simple as him being a loving and caring father. It could even be that he picked up her purse from the ground and gave it to her. Any woman is happy to feel respect for her man, in any way that he gives her to feel it. So in this sense, all men are equal. A very polite and thoughtful low caste person can earn this feeling from a woman.

Also, it is very natural for Brahmin woman to want to please her parents. I don't know if this is true with all communities or not, but among Brahmin community this is absolutely true. We feel so indebted to our parents that when we make a choice, we do it for ourselves but also we do it for our parents. This is especially true in marriage since this is the last important step before traditionally leaving your parent's house. So if we allow Brahmin woman to make a free choice, I gaurantee that 9 out of 10 times, she will choose something or someone that will also make her parents also happy or atleast as close to making her parents happy that is possible considering all relevant factors. Therefore we must trust a person's choice.

And finally, it must be understood that many Brahmin women also hold immense pride in their cultural and Brahminical heritage. I believe this is more so in Brahmin community than in other communities. Many Brahmin women also want to continue the heritage of their parents. In instances, this also includes having arranged marriages where a person has a choice among a list of eligable suiters filtered out by her parents. Another would be a love marriage where the groom is expected to take on a more traditional brahmana lifestyle after marriage. Even modern marriages work when two individuals and their respective families respect each others cultural heritage.

So in one sense I defend Goundamani but I also think the result would not be completely to his liking, perhaps?

I certainly feel that if the Brahmin community start making an issue of controling their women folk, it will alienate a large group of us upholders of the Brahmanical cultural tradition. So please don't get steared in such a wrong direction. After all, we make half of the equation.

 

[Vaylan]

This is the best attempt yet at distorting facts and this time you are not just running away - you are trying to disappear on the spot!! ound:
Did I call Lenin a toilet cleaner ? NO - You DID ! You had to insult not only the person but also the profession.

Did I call Lenin a commie,godless atheist and sworn enemy of God ? NO - You DID ! It shows your deep stereotyping of mere names.

Did I call Lenin as belonging to "reserved category" ? NO WAY - You DID ! You are the person consistently bringing your CASTE HATRED into this discussion.

Did I call you as my enemy ? No - You DID ! instead of discussing a trivial matter calmly you think in terms of enemies and hatred ? Why this extreme behavior ?

".... mind refuses to accept that they might be pious, believing hindus.No..that piousness and peity are reserved for people who are higher in the varna order."
Did I say the above words ? No - YOU DID !!

Goundamani, my friend, whose mind is full of stereotypes, prejudice and deeply scarred with caste hatred ? is it not that person who made all the extreme statements above ? Forget politically incorrect, some of the things you said above constitutes hate speech as well as libel.

Basically, you thought my story was "very offensive". Why did you think like that ? It only shows your bias against these poor people. Otherwise what is very offensive about a poor man marrying your daughter ?

Your whole idea about my thought process is completely WRONG. The story I described was to show DIFFERENCE IN CLASS AND SOCIAL STATUS. ( ie a well to do girl marrying a poor man following a humble profession. )
NOWHERE WAS CASTE BROUGHT INTO THE EQUATION.

Sadly you chose to bring your caste poison to this story.

MY BIGGEST PUZZLE IS THIS - WHEN YOU HATE THESE PEOPLE SO MUCH, WHY DO YOU HAVE TO PRETEND TO BE A SOCIAL REFORMER WHO ADVOCATES INTER-CASTE MARRIAGES ? OR DO YOU MEAN ONLY OTHERS' DAUGHTERS SHOULD DO IT ?
I will appreciate a honest answer from you.

 

[goundamani]

Vayalan,

I have given the my perceptions for your naming the toilet cleaner as Lenin, him being a drunkard and wife beater. As I said in my post, you can choose to deny it or accept it.You are the author of that story. You know the truth behind the stereotypic characters you created in the story.I redescribed the story in my perception of your words.Seems that I have hit the bull's eye.That is why you get angry and type in bold red and in capital letters:evil: (In cyber world, it is the equilant of shouting louldly. Probably I caught you red handed

Assuming that I am right,

I then bought out the biases in your mind.You are unable to stand them.You want to deny that you have such biases.This itself is a victory of this thread, vayalan.Your conscience tells that these thoughts are wrong.So you post that these thoughts are wrong.This is the first step.Admitting a mistake.

Second step is repenting and third step is making a vow of never doing it again.Fourth step is trying to remove such biases in other's minds.In this 4th stage you become a reformer.

Assuming that I am right, you have taken the first step.I hope that IInd, IIIrd and IVth steps will happen soon.

Assuming that I am wrong means that I have miscalculated your biases.But I have dropped in a disclaimer to that effect, havent I?(Disclaimer:Following is my account on what went through your mind.I understand that nobody can really understand other person's mind.But still this is my perception.It might be totally wrong,I do not deny that.But still this is my perception).:yo:

 

[goundamani]

Shanthi brahm madam,

A reasonable post on this perspective.However I differ on many aspects of the post.

Your first point was that it is but natural for women to worship their husbands.I totally disagree with this.Even though I can understand the sentiment behind it, I would like to point out that women are enslaved across the globe only because of such sentiments.

We can only worship somebody superior to us.We dont worship equals.Only when we feel somebody is superior to us, do we worship another person.When we perceive somebody to be an equal, neither do we worship that person, nor do we insult that person.

A wife worshipping a husband shows that there is no equality in that relationship.This is something which I do not consider to be a sign of freedom of women.True love can happen only between two individuals who have freedom.In that sort of relationship there wont be any sort of worshipping, but there will be only mutual respect of each other.I expect that husband and wives respect each other and such respect be mutual.

And next the issue of women pleasing her parents.Even though you mention brahmin women, I would take it across all women.

Can a woman choose a partner to please her parents?

A big "NO".

Men or women, when they enter into a relationship what they expect from the other person is "commitment". When we are commited in a relationship the relationship should be such that come hell or heavy water,both of them should stay in the relationship. Love and marriage needs such a bonding to succeed.Once a man and woman love each other, it is but natural to expect that they have such a commited love. And then it becomes a big mistake if any one of them breaks this promise, this commitment because of parents.

Love without commitment is pure infatuation and ephemeral.God save men and women who enter into a relationship with an uncommited partner.

What about men and women who arent at love?

In this case they would go for arranged marriages.Even here, I expect the men and women to make their own choice, without influence of their family.Family's role should be as minimal in this as possible.Whatever decision a man/woman makes here, it should never be done to please his/her parents.

Third issue women wanting to uphold culture and tradition.(why is always upholding culture held as the job of women?)Agreed, culture is important, but again it is not the most important thing. Putting culture (or anything) above one's self-interest will lead people to a path of destruction.

 

[mrifan]

www.tamilbrahmins.com to www.evrforum.com

I am beginning to wonder if the name of this site should be changed to evrforum.com. The primary purpose of this website, as outlined in the Mission statement that one can click on the top of web page, seems to be derailed into another track. Agent provocateurs like Mr. Goundamani and Mr. Maruti should be reminded that this website is not for slyly spreading EVRs agenda, but to support Brahmanas, period. That is what drew me to this forum in the first place. The last thing I expected was discussions on "Periyar: Hero or Villain", "Dalit rights", "Was Adi Sankara a demon?", "Brahmanas should have inter-caste marriage", etc etc.

If I was interested in these topics, I would be spending all my time on countercurrents.org or viduthalai.org etc where I can get a full ear's worth of lectures to Brahmanas from all kinds of perverts and rowdies. I thought at least on a Brahmana forum, one would be free of these irritating discussions. These provocateurs relish it when their bait is taken by some Brahmanas, and they can sit back and watch in fun as their agenda becomes center-stage by trying to turn Iyers vs Iyengars (Adi Sankara a demon?) , Brahmana men vs women (by appearing to support the women, notwithstanding the putrid and perverted ideas they espouse), Dalit rights, "Vegetarian vs. non-vegetarian quotes from Ambedkar about gluttonous beef-eating Brahmans", etc.

Can we please turn back to the main mission of this website, and ignore EVRs' proteges like Mr. Goundamani and Mr. Maruti? Let us not take their bait anymore. I think the moderators may also want to keep a watch on these two and maybe other Veeramanis who are sure to enter this forum in the future.

 

[Chintana]

Dear all of you,

This message is partially in response to a bombardment of private messages in my inbox expressing irritation and frustration at the lack of direction of threads such as these which have a promising start but meander into nothingness.

One of the unstated policies of the fourm has been to let the members take responsibility for not only their views but also the direction of the thread. Moderators try not to step in to ensure freedom of expression except in cases of hate messages and such.

But there is frustration and irritation in some members and repetition of messages in others with no fruitful resolution in sight. Annoyances usually are unproductive so I'd like to help with getting the discussion on track.

The fundamental point of contention here, to me, is that Goudamani is concerned with personal choices whereas pretty much the rest of the members are concerned with preservation of the community.

Goundamani, I think freedom of choice is a wonderful thing but I also think that tradition and culture are equally wonderful. Freedom of choice cannot be exercised without choosing from available options in a responsible manner (did you discuss the responsibility part of freedom?). The kind and the number of options we have is usually made available through our culture/tradition etc.

A large number of us recognize that although our traditions have a few outdated aspects it is still rich with very valuable life lessons and that it is OURS!!! While we want to incorporate the best of our traditions and the best that modern life can offer we are deeply concerned with a bigger issue - our survival as a community.

Nobody has the right to destroy a whole community of people (this has been happening to our community for quite some time; that's the reason this forum was started). When there is an external threat then the community has to come together and form a single front, trying to find ways to unite. In this process we will definitely come across individual differences - the point is to figure out how to stay together despite differences. So personal choices are important but become a priority only after the community is assured of its survival.

Goundamani's ideas seem inspired by Western ideals. And that's ok. But it is not ok to say that tradition is a fallacy - because it gives people (especially those less-prone to critical thinking) some belief systems and a general supply of life-related tools to help each individual navigate life. Some of those tools may be outdated and need to be changed. But to throw out tradition entirely is to throw the baby out with the bath water.

Also Western cultures are largely based on materiality. Their concept of sexuality is not oriented towards developing the spirituality or the soul-nature of a person. Indian traditions are not like that. The primary purpose of Indian traditions is to help individuals attain maximum spiritual evolution within any given lifetime. The do's and the don'ts, the traditions, the food, the music, the dance (I mean the classical forms) are all entirely oriented toward that. Conservation of the vital fluid has been prescribed by self-realized masters as an important condition for attaining supreme bliss - the idea being that self-control and regulation bring indescribable joy besides being the primary factors differentiating us from animals. The focus on the Indian side is to develop one's consciousness through self-discipline - in other words to act like one is born WITH a will, not to act like one is incapable of controlling an itch.

A lot of us happen to like such ideas that our community stands for. And we would like for it to see a better day. We may have quirky customs and plenty of superstition that needs to be weeded out but that does not mean we don't deserve to be preserved as a community.

This forum actively encourages an attitude of giving - not necessarily of money, but thoughts, ideas, suggestions and clarifications - all hopefully arising as multiple answers to one single question - 'What can I do to help my community?'

Posters to this thread, please write to me about how you want to proceed with this thread? Do you want to keep it alive? Do you want to close it? Do you think these ideas are useful to you? Are you irritated and don't feel like participating?

I am interested in helping to create an atmosphere where all of you feel like you are making progress in your contributions. Debates are fine but getting stuck doesn't exactly help matters.

Please think and let me know.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[mrifan]

Very important message

I say enough of bending over backwards to accommodate all and sundry. Everyone who is someone is standing at street corners and lecturing Brahmanas. Last thing we need is them following us here, doing their best to propagate their agenda to dilute and extinguish the community completely. As can be seen from the posts, it would make these fellows very happy. It is time to stand up and act to preserve the vast intellectual property of our community. If that creates seething envy and a desire to pull down the community, they can vent all they want on the street corners as usual.

My vote would be to close this thread.

A large number of us recognize that although our traditions have a few outdated aspects it is still rich with very valuable life lessons and that it is OURS!!! While we want to incorporate the best of our traditions and the best that modern life can offer we are deeply concerned with a bigger issue - our survival as a community.

Nobody has the right to destroy a whole community of people (this has been happening to our community for quite some time; that's the reason this forum was started). When there is an external threat then the community has to come together and form a single front, trying to find ways to unite. In this process we will definitely come across individual differences - the point is to figure out how to stay together despite differences. So personal choices are important but become a priority only after the community is assured of its survival.

While Veeramanis and Ambedkarites may believe in free sexual mores for children with others starting at age 15 like existing in Africa and American inner-city crack-ghettos, I feel Brahmanas need not be lectured on adopting these practices and diluting their community even further till extinction. It is instructive to note that AIDS first got established in India in TN and Mumbai, where the EVRites and Ambedkarites have control of the masses.

I would personally vote for this disgusting thread to be closed.

Their concept of sexuality is not oriented towards developing the spirituality or the soul-nature of a person. Indian traditions are not like that. The primary purpose of Indian traditions is to help individuals attain maximum spiritual evolution within any given lifetime. The do's and the don'ts, the traditions, the food, the music, the dance (I mean the classical forms) are all entirely oriented toward that. Conservation of the vital fluid has been prescribed by self-realized masters as an important condition for attaining supreme bliss - the idea being that self-control and regulation bring indescribable joy besides being the primary factors differentiating us from animals. The focus on the Indian side is to develop one's consciousness through self-discipline - in other words to act like one is born WITH a will, not to act like one is incapable of controlling an itch.

A lot of us happen to like such ideas that our community stands for. And we would like for it to see a better day. We may have quirky customs and plenty of superstition that needs to be weeded out but that does not mean we don't deserve to be preserved as a community.

This forum actively encourages an attitude of giving - not necessarily of money, but thoughts, ideas, suggestions and clarifications - all hopefully arising as multiple answers to one single question - 'What can I do to help my community?'

Posters to this thread, please write to me about how you want to proceed with this thread? Do you want to keep it alive? Do you want to close it? Do you think these ideas are useful to you? Are you irritated and don't feel like participating?

I am interested in helping to create an atmosphere where all of you feel like you are making progress in your contributions. Debates are fine but getting stuck doesn't exactly help matters.

Please think and let me know.

Regards,
Chintana

 

[born_again_aiyer_maami]

Whole-heartedly second the motion ...

It might be a good idea to establish a protocol - for the minimum age/maturity/IQ level necessary to post on this forum.
Yes, I am an unabashed elitist!

I say enough of bending over backwards to accommodate all and sundry.
It is time to stand up and act to preserve the vast intellectual property of our community. If that creates seething envy and a desire to pull down the community, they can vent all they want on the street corners as usual.

My vote would be to close this thread.

 

[Shanti Brahm]

My Opinion

I think we should stop making everything into a personal issue and just let everyone voice their opinions without personal attacks.

I quite enjoy my discussions with Goundamani. It is good to have an opponant to argue with. The only person I refuse to respond to is N. Suresh because he drowns the threads with the same message over and over again. But I simply choose not to answer.

So I say, let the thread stay. It seems this topic will come up again and again since so many people seem to be interested in it. So there may as well be an open board to discuss it. Let's just not be so nasty with the personal attacks, please!

Mrifan, I'm sure you can make good counter arguments without needing to call names or accusing consipiracies. You seem to be quite bright underneath all that anger.

 

[mrifan]

Helping the community

I am not indulging in personal attacks. I am just pointing out that I feel the reason why this website was established, to help the Brahmana community, has instead become a forum for EVRites to exhort Brahmanas to dilute the community away. I named names because the connection is clear. It is just a statement of facts. Since it is against the forum rules to ask anyone if they are a Brahmana, I have not done so, but as far as those members are concerned, the answer is very clear to me.

Now, if the members were to ask, how can I help support Brahmanas and contribute towards maintaining Brahmana values, that would be very welcome indeed. If the aim is the opposite, I am just pointing out that many existing forums like viduthalai.org, countercurrents.org and probably thousands of anti-Brahmana sites contain all kinds of lectures for Brahmanas already. The lectures contained in this thread may instead be added there.

I think one has to move on to a serious note. The community is definitely under strain in TN, and has been systematically eradicated from the political, educational and now positions of power in religious circles. Isn't the primary need to address this and always ask, like other communities do, how can we help our community? Speaking for myself of course, I would put the necessity of the community forum appearing magnanimous and open to debates on how to extinguish themselves away, at a slightly lower priority.

I think all members, Brahmanas or otherwise, must be first asked if they support the community, and how can they help to strengthen and unite the community, not the other way around. Other communities, like the Ramadosses of the Vanniyars, Krishnaswamy and Tiruma of the Dalits, Chidambarams and Marans of the BCs, ask this question everytime any action needs to be taken. Brahmanas on the other hand, with their false sense of guilt do not, and thus find themselves in the state they are in now in TN.

I think we should stop making everything into a personal issue and just let everyone voice their opinions without personal attacks.

I quite enjoy my discussions with Goundamani. It is good to have an opponant to argue with. The only person I refuse to respond to is N. Suresh because he drowns the threads with the same message over and over again. But I simply choose not to answer.

So I say, let the thread stay. It seems this topic will come up again and again since so many people seem to be interested in it. So there may as well be an open board to discuss it. Let's just not be so nasty with the personal attacks, please!

Mrifan, I'm sure you can make good counter arguments without needing to call names or accusing consipiracies. You seem to be quite bright underneath all that anger.

 

[mrifan]

Regarding Mr Suresh

I would also like to add in defence of Mr. Suresh, that while his diatribe against non-vegetarianism might be overdone, he is on the ground in TN, is a Brahmana, and can be counted upon to volunteer when the need arises to help the community. I would consider that far more important, than the debating skills that other people may possess.

 

[hariharan1972]

Would leave it to the moderators & others.

Posters to this thread, please write to me about how you want to proceed with this thread? Do you want to keep it alive? Do you want to close it? Do you think these ideas are useful to you? Are you irritated and don't feel like participating?
Regards,
Chintana

Chintana,

I am ok either way.

I would be particularly disappointed if this thread is closed before Mr Goundamani satisfactorily explains the larger point that Mr Vaylan has raised in his story, which according to me is :

Should parents not have any say at all in marriage of their children ?
How should a parent react when the child is making an obvious mistake ? Should it be allowed in the spirit of free will ?

If this is extended, should the free will of the child be respected if he/she doesn't want to study, wants to smoke/drink/take to drugs/what not ?

Mr Vaylan has tried his best to get his point across that the reason why LMs are opposed to are NOT only based on caste, but for considerations such as educational / financial background, family background, cultural/traditional practices etc....

Mr Goundamani tirade against AMs being the villain of the piece in a woman's life is ridiculous to say the least. I can produce evidences of how an AM has enhanced a woman's career & also i can produce another evidence as to how indulging in 'puppy love' had screwed a friend's career. (Thank god, he has recovered).

But i wont.

For 2 reasons : 1. Not a good idea to discuss pvt lives & 2. Mr Goundamani will easily respond that these are 'exceptions' (not realising that he is the one who is speaking of exceptions)

I wouldn't mix reservations into this because that is a larger evil & i refuse to believe that LMs would result in elimination of Reservations.

Mr Goundamani repeatedly ducks the question of why alone Brahmins should shed their 'casteist outlook' (if for a minute we accept the charge).

Let me propose this to Mr Goundamani.

Brahmins are a such a small part of the module of society. So why don't the other castes get 'integrated' first & then present a united front to Brahmins ?

I find it extremely funny that Mr Goundamani holds a candle for the free will to prevail for every one except when Brahmins want to marry Brahmins ?

Hey i discovered a pearl in Mr Goundamani's posting too - (in my words) - 'Nothing is above a person's Self-interest'.

I had to order a soda after i read it !!!!!

Since when "Self Serving individuals" became social reformers ?????

Indian Society is based on 'Sacrifice' (one of the reasons why i like Elton John !!!)

Mr Goundamani : I won't get tired of repeating, perhaps my 3rd time. For a change, let me 'vaypad / aaathichoodi' it.

1. I am a brahmin.
2. I don't discriminate people based on caste when i interact with them outside my home.
3. Within my home also i don't discriminate.
4. But it doesn't mean that i will allow anyone & everyone coz it is linked to my sensibility
5. I don't carry any baggage about brahmins oppressing other castes.
6. Even if my ancestors did, i regret it, but my conscience is clear
7. What happened in the past, doesn't colour my current thinking
8. I reject that i need to bend over backwards to prove my non casteist credentials.
9. I have a set of private practices
10. I refuse the demand to handover the right of exercising my private choices in my private domain.

"Jaadi irundozhiya verillai" endru paadiya avvaiye, "kettalum men makkal men makkale, sangu suttalum venmai tharum" nu paadi irukkanga, so even if casteism will be eradicated, some other 'classification' is bound to happen.

On a lighter note, keeping this thread alive is beneficial since Mr Goundamani has promised his version of a story.

Praveen - you hold a copyright for all posts in this forum don't you ? Perhaps a good idea to 'sell' the stories to Baarathiraaja (yen iniye thamizh makkale). Perhaps Ramki could start discussing with Manoj Night Shyamalan.

Kashyap - I promise, this is my last PJ.

 

[maruti]

I think all members, Brahmanas or otherwise, must be first asked if they support the community, and how can they help to strengthen and unite the community, not the other way around. Other communities, like the Ramadosses of the Vanniyars, Krishnaswamy and Tiruma of the Dalits, Chidambarams and Marans of the BCs, ask this question everytime any action needs to be taken. Brahmanas on the other hand, with their false sense of guilt do not, and thus find themselves in the state they are in now in TN.

What you're describing isn't peculiar to the Brahmins. Most Hindus feel that way, which is why they tend to worship invaders like akbar over local rulers like the cholas. Our history books are all praise for foreign rulers. Wasn't it Mahatma Gandhi who glorified Aurangzeb and called Shivaji a low-class dacoit?:violin:

It simply proves my contention that all Hindus have this problem, they just don't want to acknowledge that a problem exists, that they need to fight it out. It's a trait of those who've been slaves for long, they start respecting their oppressors. Believe it's called "Stockholm Syndrome."hone:So please understand that this isn't peculiar to the Brahmins alone. Most slaves races go through this phase.

 

[indiravasudeva]

Hi All,

Its a pleasure to see such intense discussion on sensitive topic like this. As per my opnion both Love marriages and arranged marriages have their own negitives and positives...and has to be looked from individual persepective.. In any case i strongly believe that boy and girl should know eachother well ...and most importantly everyone needs a partner with whom you can talk and discuss anything under the sun as all other attraction fades away with time. I feel this generation is lucky as parents empasise more on education and career even for girls....we can have in finite discussion on this as its highly subjective...

 

[maruti]

These provocateurs relish it when their bait is taken by some Brahmanas, and they can sit back and watch in fun as their agenda becomes center-stage by trying to turn Iyers vs Iyengars (Adi Sankara a demon?)

Just a small clarification. This idea is NOT mine. It's mentioned in puranas, as well as in Maadhva literature, including Sumadhva Vijaya, which is Sri Madhva's bio written by Naryana Panditacharya. So it's unfair to blame me, when my sole intention was to seek clarification in this matter.

 

[maruti]

It might be a good idea to establish a protocol - for the minimum age/maturity/IQ level necessary to post on this forum.

Be careful what you wish for!:lol:

 

[Chintana]

Your posts on Who are we?

Dear Maruti and Indiravasudeva,

Mirfan, Mami, Shanti Brahm and Hariharan1972 were actually responding to my posting on whether we should keep this thread or close it. Please refer to my previous posting.

So what you actually saw was a voting process. So far two members have opted to close it (mirfan and Mami) one wants it open (Shanti Brahm) and one is undecided (hariharan 1972).

If we are deciding to close this thread then you might have to start another one or find an existing one to post. All of the contributors to the debate so far have not voted yet.

 

[NARAS]

sir - 'thread' as i have said before, is a sacred word for bramins, and so i would not like any thread to be closed. but i would request the initiator of this thread that, just because he is goundamani, he should not treat all others like senthil!!!

 

[Chintana]

Your responses needed

Dear Goundamani, Kashyap, Vaylan, Lotus_quartz and Kudumi,

We are in the process of taking a vote on whether the 'Who are we?' thread needs to be closed or not. Please refer to my posting #60 in the thread. Five members have responded so far. We need for all of you contributors who developed the debate to cast your vote.

I will specifically ask members to hold off fresh postings until we have taken a decision on this issue.

Thank you.

 

[Chintana]

Voting in process - please hold off new contributions

Dear new posters to this thread,

We are in the middle of a voting process to decide whether this thread should be kept open or not. Until we have reached a decision you might want to consider posting your views at other threads.

Thank you.

 

[Chintana]

Noted - thank you

Thank you, Naras.

sir - 'thread' as i have said before, is a sacred word for bramins, and so i would not like any thread to be closed. but i would request the initiator of this thread that, just because he is goundamani, he should not treat all others like senthil!!!