Encouraging/Accepting Inter Caste Marriages

[pannvalan]

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Dear TBS,

Mine was also an arranged marriage. We were not relatives and hadn't seen each other before.

I was very particular about not demanding or accepting dowry. I purchased my dress, wrist watch etc. with my own money. Besides, when my wife landed in my house, I had it fully furnished with Colour TV, Fridge, Sofaset, Cots, Mattresses, Mixie, Gas Stove and Cylinder, Dining Table, Fans, Air-cooler (large) etc. All at my cost. (I already had a brand new motorcycle with me).

I also contributed 50% of the cost of Thirumangalyam and bought the 'Koorai Pudavai' (a silk sari) for her.

There is a small story behind this. I was once travelling in the Pandian Exp from Chennai to Madurai. I and my fellow passengers started chit chatting to pass time.
Gradually the conversation touched the topic of dowry in brahmin families.

Then one of the co-passengers, Prof. Chandrika, HOD of Biotechnology, Madurai Medical College threw a challenge to me, if I would marry a girl without accepting any dowry, even when offered. I was a bachelor at that time and had very lofty ideals and firm principles about my future life. Therefore, without any hesitation, I accepted her challenge.

Now, coming to the point, yes, many brahmin girls are also afraid of the huge expenses of a girl's marriage because of which parents and brothers had to borrow substantial sums which can be redeemed only after 5 to 10 years. Therefore, the unwritten rule of the girl's side bearing the financial burden of conducting the marriage is one valid cause.

Secondly, many parents do not want to lose their daughter's income very soon, because of the huge investment made in her upbringing and education. This delays the marriage beyond a reasonable level. So, the girl attains frustration and starts doubting if she could marry at all in the foreseeable future.

Thirdly, because many girls are brought up like sons with full freedom in many matters, they easily mingle with boys of their age in college or office (workspot). This creates some sort of inexplicable attraction between one boy and one girl. Ofter this is misunderstood as 'love'.

Other grounds for inter-caste marriages are peer pressure, influences by the TV and Cinema, frequent quarrels within the family which force the girl to choose the early marriage as an escape route, financial problems, moral support and help rendered by someone known and the false assurances given by the males concerned to remove the fear and misconception in the minds of the girl.

Over-protected girls also venture to do some experiment with love.

I shall add more points later.

 

[pannvalan]

A known devil is better than an unknown angel. When the known one is also an angel, not a devil, what will we choose?

A known angel or an unknown angel/devil?

 

[Raghy]

A known devil is better than an unknown angel. When the known one is also an angel, not a devil, what will we choose?

A known angel or an unknown angel/devil?

Sri.Pannvalan,

Unfortunately, I am not understanding this. Who is a known angel or devil and who is the unknown angel or devil? Who does the choosing? I request you to kindly explain, please. Thank you.

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

I have voted for - "May not initiate it, but accept it"

I loved the Brahmin tradition, rituals, Karma karyams (performed by elders) from the time of my life I gained conscious.

I could know the reasons and values of many of these practices.

I could relish every moment of it.

Though ours is not so orthodox family, we followed the tradition to the best of our capacity.

I am enjoying, poonal kalyanams, grils celebrating Navarathri, Kaardiyar Nombu, Arudra Darshanam, Kula daiva pooja and Samaardhanai, Homams performed at Home etc..etc...that were all very unique in the style of Brahmin Culture.

So, my conscious as Brahmin would never allow me to initiate inter cast marriages.

But, things are changing. Parents are helpless. Educated and working boys and girls are independent in every part of their life and want to live the way they want due to many domestic and social reasons.

Neither parents nor society can interfere.

Things were changing, is now changing and will ever be changing in future.

So, we are forced to accept willingly or unwillingly...What to do?

After all, in a family set up we all are dependent on each other in some or the other ways during some part of life.

So, I feel the Brahmin families/parents (Vaideega or non-vaideega Brahmins) should keep following the culture as possible and pass on to children. Than it's up to children to understand/accept and decide himself/herself as how he/she wants to live based on all the criteria that one feels mandatory, and the parents to be prepared to accept what the children decides.

If parents would not accept, today's boys and girls can take their own way out.

Today, one's life is purely based on one's own decision. Some or the other way it proves wrong and right as well. Whatever, one has to take one's own responsibility.

The due course of time has its own impact...We all are helpless.

 

[Raghy]

Chi.Ravi said:-

"I am enjoying, poonal kalyanams, grils celebrating Navarathri, Kaardiyar Nombu, Arudra Darshanam, Kula daiva pooja and Samaardhanai, Homams performed at Home etc..etc...that were all very unique in the style of Brahmin Culture.

So, my conscious as Brahmin would never allow me to initiate inter cast marriages."

Sri.Ravi,

The above mentioned ceremonies are not exclusive to caste brahmins only. I noticed amoung Gujaratis, anyone irrespective of brahmin caste light up the homam for pooja (they call it havan); navaratri and other functions are well and truly celeberated by all hindus (somewhere in this forum, I requested one of the members to mention an exclusive ritual that is only a caste brahmin; I have not got the reply so far. I don't think there is any).

Rituals and poojas need not be passed from the parents either. My parents showed me zilch when it came to rituals and poojas. I learned them on my own with my self interest.

Cheers!

 

[pannvalan]

Simple, Raghy. What or whom will you choose? Known or unknown?

Unknown can be anything - good or bad, angel or devil ... So long as something is unknown, the fear and suspicion will be there. (Knowing means knowing fully or reasonably well).

So, instead of going into adjectives or descriptions, just think. A common man will choose only the 'known'. 'Unknown' in any context is usually avoided. People prefer the path treaded by others earlier.

Am I clear?

 

[Swamiramjee]

Encouraging/accepting intercaste marriage

It is really paining to see that we have reached a stage to discuss such subject.A time has come that we take stock of our community's unified views regarding arrangements of marriage taking into consideration of sastras and vedic instructions. Besides many reasons, the financial implication in conducting the marriage at proper time plays an important role in diverting the girls to look for economical way to settle in life while the boys resort to seek intercaste alliance because of the rigitity of parents and imaginary fear about the future daugter in law &her family.

I also find many of us start viewing any issue connected with TAMIL BRAHMIN as a common HINDU issue and I do not agree to such approach. So for as Tamil brahmin is concerned to other hindus we are "PAPANS" and for north indians we are MADRASSEE. There fore I would like to request the members are this august forum to view our problems as an unique issue.

Coming back to this thread, Such intercaste marriages are being conducted due reasons beyond the control of parents and thereby
total family is forced to accept the same. But I do not find a single reason to ENCOURAGE it, Instead I would like to find out methodology to totally eradicate such happening. To me the following may pave way to retain our identity as Tamil Brahmins

1.Let us first identify us as tamilbrahmins and NOT iyer, iyyangar etc. I would like to encourage such intercommunity marriage
2. Is it neccessary to have 2 !/2 days marriage ?

3. How much imporantance is to horoscope matching ?

I request you all to offer your views

 

[SuryaKasyapa]

I have voted for - "May not initiate it, but accept it"

Voting is meant to be secret.But as Ravi has disclosed , I also disclose..I have also voted as Ravi.

The logic is very simple. If available, I will be comfortable with the most familiar way of life, which I and my family are used to. If that is not available , then the next best choice., coming as close to that.

As I am not a politicin seeking votes, I need not do something for the sake of show. Hence deliberately to get applause I will not initiate something for its own sake..But yes, if that is what to be,agreed ,no problem.While doing so I don't want to despise the faith and beliefs and traditions of either, but will expect that nothing should be offending also.Nobody should have a feeling of ego.

Life is always a compromise of choices.Let us take it in the usual way, and not to be perturbed or jubilant.

Greetings.

PS: TBs generally were and are comparatively more accommodative in this regard, even when other sections were not so liberal. I had seen and heard about many son-in-law and daughter-in-law as vellakkaran or vellakkari even in my childhood days , and it was only an eagerness to look at them.But it never occurred to me that they are different- neither the family also treated them so.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Swamiramjee,

Please read another thread on the same topic (but without a poll). Under that thread (on inter caste marriages), in Page No. 9 and in Thread No. 89, I have detailed some suggestions.

As a gist, I recapitulate.

1. Remove all sub-sect barriers within the Tamil Brahmin community.
2. Reduce the expenditure on celebration of marriages, especially on Halll rent,
food etc.
3. Never demand dowry.
4. Reduce the event to just 1.5 (one and a half) days, to start with. Later, it
may further be pruned down to 24 hours, starting from the previous evening
(with Janavasam or Reception) to next day evening 5 o' clock. i.e. on the day of
the marriage. Nuptials may be arranged in the house itself.
5. Do not waste any items, indulge in extravagance or spend on unnecessary or
irelevant things/articles.
6. Save electricity, water etc.
7. Considering these, by today's prices, the total marriage expenses shall not cross
Rs.1.50 lacs on an average.
8. Give much importance to the character of the person (bride as well as groom).
9. Show flexibility in other things, like employment, income/wealth etc.
10. Future prospects of the boy may be taken into consideration and even a boy
from a lower economic status may be accepted. In such a case, demands will be
usually less.
11. Don't delay the marriage of boys beyond 28 and girls beyond 27 years.

 

[Raghy]

Simple, Raghy. What or whom will you choose? Known or unknown?

Unknown can be anything - good or bad, angel or devil ... So long as something is unknown, the fear and suspicion will be there. (Knowing means knowing fully or reasonably well).

So, instead of going into adjectives or descriptions, just think. A common man will choose only the 'known'. 'Unknown' in any context is usually avoided. People prefer the path treaded by others earlier.

Am I clear?

Sri.Pannvalan Sir,

It is not that simple, in my opinion. 'Known devil is better than unknown God'.... When these younsters fall in love outside the caste, they do consider the person they know, the person they love is the devil better the unknown god (the arranged person yet to meet, the totally unknown person recommended by the parents).

(I have gone through this discussion with my children already. The discussion was very funny in the hind-sight, not while it was taking place).

Cheers!

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Suryakasyapa said:-

"As I am not a politicin seeking votes, I need not do something for the sake of show. Hence deliberately to get applause I will not initiate something for its own sake..But yes, if that is what to be,agreed ,no problem.While doing so I don't want to despise the faith and beliefs and traditions of either, but will expect that nothing should be offending also.Nobody should have a feeling of ego."

Sri.Suryakasyapa Sir,

What is the difference between the first and second choice? Nothing! When I said to my son that I would accept any girl that he chooses as my daughter is not done to get any applause, please. I am living in a caste free society; I don't need anybody's applause anyway! Kindly answer me honestly, please- would you not treat a NB girl as your own daughter when you know that the young girl would be living under your care on a permanent basis? Would you realistically warn your children not to fall in love with a NB boy/girl?

Cheers!

 

[C RAVI]

Dear Swamiramjee,

Please read another thread on the same topic (but without a poll). Under that thread (on inter caste marriages), in Page No. 9 and in Thread No. 89, I have detailed some suggestions.

As a gist, I recapitulate.

1. Remove all sub-sect barriers within the Tamil Brahmin community.
2. Reduce the expenditure on celebration of marriages, especially on Halll rent,
food etc.
3. Never demand dowry.
4. Reduce the event to just 1.5 (one and a half) days, to start with. Later, it
may further be pruned down to 24 hours, starting from the previous evening
(with Janavasam or Reception) to next day evening 5 o' clock. i.e. on the day of
the marriage. Nuptials may be arranged in the house itself.
5. Do not waste any items, indulge in extravagance or spend on unnecessary or
irelevant things/articles.
6. Save electricity, water etc.
7. Considering these, by today's prices, the total marriage expenses shall not cross
Rs.1.50 lacs on an average.
8. Give much importance to the character of the person (bride as well as groom).
9. Show flexibility in other things, like employment, income/wealth etc.
10. Future prospects of the boy may be taken into consideration and even a boy
from a lower economic status may be accepted. In such a case, demands will be
usually less.
11. Don't delay the marriage of boys beyond 28 and girls beyond 27 years.

Sri Pannvalan ji,

Perfectly true.

I personally felt it so and expressed positively with yours in the same thread.

This would be the best way to retain Brahmin society for ever, if we Brahmins want.

I feel the list that you have provided for marriage, are what exactly majority of the Muslims are following.

Than, why can't we Brahmins simplify our self for the sake of our generation to grow.

Let us perform marriages as just one of the simple activities of life and not to consider it as a great life time event for which lot of monetary, physical and mental challenges need to be copped up.

 

[C RAVI]

Chi.Ravi said:-

"I am enjoying, poonal kalyanams, grils celebrating Navarathri, Kaardiyar Nombu, Arudra Darshanam, Kula daiva pooja and Samaardhanai, Homams performed at Home etc..etc...that were all very unique in the style of Brahmin Culture.

So, my conscious as Brahmin would never allow me to initiate inter cast marriages."

Sri.Ravi,

The above mentioned ceremonies are not exclusive to caste brahmins only. I noticed amoung Gujaratis, anyone irrespective of brahmin caste light up the homam for pooja (they call it havan); navaratri and other functions are well and truly celeberated by all hindus (somewhere in this forum, I requested one of the members to mention an exclusive ritual that is only a caste brahmin; I have not got the reply so far. I don't think there is any).

Rituals and poojas need not be passed from the parents either. My parents showed me zilch when it came to rituals and poojas. I learned them on my own with my self interest.

Cheers!

Sri, Raghy ji,

I think, you have overlooked one important point in my statement.

I listed out couple of festivals/rituals and have clearly stated that - "They are all very unique in the style of Brahmin culture" and I loved that.

I could only now realize that you have requested one of the members before to mention an exclusive ritual that is only a cast Brahmin.

Please find the list of the same -

1) NAANDHI FOLLOWED BY UPANAYANAMM (POONAL KALYAN)
2) AAVANI AVITTAM
3) SANDHYA VANDANAM
4) THIRUVAADARAI NOMBU
5) KAARDIYAR NOMBU
6) VARA LAKSHMI NOMBU
7) MANGLI PENDUGAL (SUMANGLI POOJAI)
8) SAMAARADHANAI (AFTER PERFORMING OBEISANCE TO KULA DAIVAM)
9) MAHAALAYA PAKSHAM
10) AMMAVASAI THARPANAM (SPECIAL THARPANAM DURING "THAI" & "AADI" MONTHS)
11) VISHU PUNIYAKALAM (SPECIAL THARPANAM DURING "THAI MAASAM")
12) SPECIAL THARPANAM DURING - SOLAR/LUNAR ECLIPSE
13) VARSHAABTHI (FIRST YEAR THEVASAM) / THEVASAM (IN BRAHMIN'S OWN STYLE THAT INCLUDES HOMAM)
14) ALL THE CEREMONIES/POOJA/HOMAM PERFORMED BY "VAATHIYARS" (PRIEST) IN GENERAL AS VEDIC SCHOLARS.


Might be few others that I may not know….


I believe, no one can rule out the existing practice among non-brahmins who all eat non-vegeratian food. That is - "They avoid cooking and eating Non-Vegetarian food during most of the religious rituals/ceremonies; during fasting and some of them follow this during certain days of the week (Thursday/Friday/Saturday)

And as per Brahmin principles (not 1000's of old pouranic Brahmins who eat meat) we should never eat non-vegetarian food through out the life.

I think this would be enough to differential between Brahmin and Non-Brahmin tradition/culture.

Again, I am not highlighting and tagging any sort of importance to Brahmins.

But, I am simply highlighting the differences that I believe existing in our society and as been thought to me from my child hood.

If any one can say that, I am wrong in all above than I have to visit Kanchi Matt / Sringeri Swamigal Matt to understand the truth during my vacation to Chennai in the month of January.

In such a case, I would certainly elaborate my learnings of the truth to the best of my understanding and capacity with all of the members here.

 

[Jambu]

Now we hardly have any Brahmin family in which there is no inter cast or inter religious mariage. we have all acepted it so much that the wedding is some times done twice One according to boys tradition( religious /cast) & other according to girls and finally registered or first registered and the weddings follows Now the only solution is to be Brhamin by Behaviour to pass on our customs tradion and culture to generation next. In these weddings Pomp and show seem to be more than the traditional ones

 

[C RAVI]

Sri Swamiramjee,

Please find my reply in blue...

I also find many of us start viewing any issue connected with TAMIL BRAHMIN as a common HINDU issue and I do not agree to such approach. So for as Tamil brahmin is concerned to other hindus we are "PAPANS" and for north indians we are MADRASSEE. There fore I would like to request the members are this august forum to view our problems as an unique issue.

Coming back to this thread, Such intercaste marriages are being conducted due reasons beyond the control of parents and thereby
total family is forced to accept the same. But I do not find a single reason to ENCOURAGE it, Instead I would like to find out methodology to totally eradicate such happening. To me the following may pave way to retain our identity as Tamil Brahmins

1.Let us first identify us as tamilbrahmins and NOT iyer, iyyangar etc. I would like to encourage such intercommunity marriage

- This is the best way to sustain a tradition/culture of the people called Brahmin in our Hindu society. It is not a matter of discrimination among other cast. It is just a matter of following and sustaining the tradition/culture that has its own charm.

2. Is it neccessary to have 2 !/2 days marriage ?

- Even 1 day marriage in Tirupathi / Swami Mali / Abhirami-Maargandeswarar temple / or any other important temple would be the best choice.


3. How much imporantance is to horoscope matching ?

- Only to the extent of Chevvai Dosham, Kalathra Dosham, Stree Dheerga Porutham would be enough. And to look for possible PARIHARAMS to mitigate any evil effects


I request you all to offer your views


4) At least one month time to be given to the proposed boy and girl before engagement, to interact freely to understand each other. They should be allowed to meet frequently in each of their office, in parks, in beach etc. as felt appropriate (in a secured manner) so that none of them would blame their parents for such a proposal due to any sort of lacking in compatibility.

5) After engagement there should be strict practice of providing marriage counseling to the couple. This may help the boy and the girl to understand the value and importance of a family setup, each other's responsibilities and love & affection towards each other. This step can help prevent refusal of marriage at the last minute by any one of them.

 

[Jambu]

Traditonal Brahamin weddings are colourful If you want to capture in media any thing relating to Indian wedding either you cover Brahamin wedding or Rajasthani Other types of wedding like medai kalyanam where some one (Local Political Or Cine VIP) or other talks on a mike with loud filmy music on the backgound It is not coluorful most likely you change the channel I for that matter like these rituals without much knowldge of their meaning or significance

 

[sapthajihva]

Sorry if my postis out of topic, but of late, we seem obsessed to negate that varna passes by birth, and the subsequent practices of brahmins. Anybody who can type in a few literals, has a view that varna is different, and sometimes I am asked to consult different sanyasis to clarify the stand (as if their stand is unquestionable)!

All this inter-caste marriage talk is only if we are deluded into believing that 'being a brahmin is not by birth'.

If one believes in that, there is so much by way of customs, traditions that can be cherished.

It is a tremendous boon, so I consider, to be born in a brahmin family - to uphold the virtues for what we stand for, to accept the karmic results (even if they be adverse), and not to transgress from the rituals.

Some may talk volumes about uttaramimamsa and that the gyana kanda is the only relevant portion of the vedhas. Anybody who has properly read/heard as to how the vedhas are to be interpreted would easily know the difference and the significance of the rituals.

What ramasamy naicker did in those days, certain members are doing it now, brainwashing that the varna can never be by birth, or that brahmins have invented the caste system to control the masses, or as a last straw, comparing genes to prove facts! How absurd can it get!

More hilarious is the spreading of the opinion that vedic brahmins were meat eaters. Fantasy cannot beat this!

Anyway, I stop for now.

Human dignity, affection, friendship are all things that exist outside of the varna. Marriage is not only about these feelings, but about deciding the overall well-being (mental and spiritual) of the family, the society and the world. For this inter caste marriages have to be avoided. I am not saying this in the discriminatory sense, but still if some prefer to see it so, I cannot help it.

If one says - 'I am proud to be an Indian', does it mean that citizens of other nations are third class or worse?

 

[Nara]

Dear Sapthajihva,

From what I gather, HH is simply giving another view that has some validity and following. Her view is consistent with prasthana thriya, but not with Dharmashashthras. But she has repeatedly reiterated that the Dharmashsthras are not accepted or followed by the non-Shankara matam ekadanti branch of Vedantam. There is some coherence to this position, just as much as your view which stays within the bounds of dharmashashthras, which you value, but she does not.

I have one question for each of you.

For sister HH:
A few weeks back we talked about how to identify the varna. If I remember you right, I think you mentioned it would be done by the acharya as the three dvija varnas went to gurukulm as a matter of custom.

While this leaves leaves out Shudras, yet the process of determination seems too arbitrary and capricious to make sense in wide practice. Further, it precludes any change in varna due to change in outlook after leaving gurukulam. Such changes are all too common.

So, the more I think about this, the more I feel varna by birth, but not by birth family is totally impractical and could not sustain.

For brother Sapthajiha:
Even Dharmashashthras say that a Brahmin is one not just by birth, but by strictly following the edicts of shashthras. By this definition, even the most orthodox among Brahmins fall short. If you look at the Ahinkas, I have, I don't think even a single person living today is a Brahmin. So, what is point?

With best regards....

 

[happyhindu]

Saptha,

Sorry if my postis out of topic, but of late, we seem obsessed to negate that varna passes by birth, and the subsequent practices of brahmins. Anybody who can type in a few literals, has a view that varna is different, and sometimes I am asked to consult different sanyasis to clarify the stand (as if their stand is unquestionable)!

As if the stand of shankara mutts is unquestionable!

Not everyone is a sentimental fool, to accept anything that is propagated in the garb of holiness.

While the ekadandi advaita samapradayas are ancient, the shankara mutts were created only in the 8th century. And though Shankara himself established only 4 mutts, we suddenly have a new one, called kanchi mutt, that cropped up out of nowhere and tries to propagate jaati-dharma.

Moreover, there is a claim that Adi Shankara took samadhi at Kanchi, when everyone visits the himalayas at kedarnath to visit Adi Shankara's samadhi.

It was Paramacharya who propagated the idea that Adi Shankara took samadhi in Kanchi. How credible is the claim?

Lets not talk abt what is questionable or unquestionable, esp in terms of credibility of statements, it does not take long for tables to turn and for calmness to turn into anger.

All this inter-caste marriage talk is only if we are deluded into believing that 'being a brahmin is not by birth'.

If one believes in that, there is so much by way of customs, traditions that can be cherished.

It is a tremendous boon, so I consider, to be born in a brahmin family - to uphold the virtues for what we stand for, to accept the karmic results (even if they be adverse), and not to transgress from the rituals.

Some may talk volumes about uttaramimamsa and that the gyana kanda is the only relevant portion of the vedhas. Anybody who has properly read/heard as to how the vedhas are to be interpreted would easily know the difference and the significance of the rituals.

Leaving marriages out of the pic, what is your POV (or POV of the shankara mutts) need not be accepted by other ekadandis.

I can't help but smile at the idea that some self-appointed brahmins can actually consider a 'brahmin' to be an adobe of 'brahma'....but then they are entitled to their POV as much as those that do not accept their POV.

If the non-shankara ekadandis consider rituals as invalid for moksham..they have their place under the sun too. No point in suggesting that their stand is questionable while that of shankara mutts is unquestionable.

What ramasamy naicker did in those days, certain members are doing it now, brainwashing that the varna can never be by birth, or that brahmins have invented the caste system to control the masses, or as a last straw, comparing genes to prove facts! How absurd can it get!

its like a hobby for 'brahmins' to blame everyone, right from goon politicians like naicker to missionaries and the british, for each and everything, but consider themselves totally infallible...

not once wud they tarry for a while to look within - not once wud they wonder how can entire population groups go against a section without any reason...

I suppose its unfortunate for some, that "brahmins" are not an "exclusive" genetic group; so the claim that all of them descended from brahma becomes null and void - looks like that's where the angst is coming from.

The unfortunate part is that its only a few bad apples who bring upon trouble for all brahmins (even for those living their lives quietly without any argument with anyone)...very sad really..

More hilarious is the spreading of the opinion that vedic brahmins were meat eaters. Fantasy cannot beat this!

Dunno who is living in a fantasy world. Monks and priests in the vedic period did consume meat. But ppl on this forum will argue that Paramacharya said only pea-size...As if pea-size does not amount to meat entering the intestines..

Anyway, I stop for now.

Human dignity, affection, friendship are all things that exist outside of the varna. Marriage is not only about these feelings, but about deciding the overall well-being (mental and spiritual) of the family, the society and the world. For this inter caste marriages have to be avoided. I am not saying this in the discriminatory sense, but still if some prefer to see it so, I cannot help it.

Let those who propagate jaati-dharma, which demeans sections of populations for their birth, not talk about human dignity, affection and friendship...it cud be considered just lip-service...

If one says - 'I am proud to be an Indian', does it mean that citizens of other nations are third class or worse?

it does not take long for pride to get converted to vanity in certain individuals...

 

[happyhindu]

For sister HH:
A few weeks back we talked about how to identify the varna. If I remember you right, I think you mentioned it would be done by the acharya as the three dvija varnas went to gurukulm as a matter of custom.

While this leaves leaves out Shudras, yet the process of determination seems too arbitrary and capricious to make sense in wide practice. Further, it precludes any change in varna due to change in outlook after leaving gurukulam. Such changes are all too common.

So, the more I think about this, the more I feel varna by birth, but not by birth family is totally impractical and could not sustain.

Sri Nara,

Disclaimer: All of the below are POVs.

The model the vedantins claim is this (and this model is claimed by monks of various orders / branches of the ekadandi sampradayam - a rather consistent claim, i must say, spread over the saraswati, giri and swami sects of ekadandis)::

The vedantins say shudra is not a jaati (or occupation). So there is nothing called a shudra section in terms of occupation. And therefore no question of alloting a 'shudra job'.

They say everyone went to gurukulams and their jobs got allocated as per the ability they showed while at school.

I think they are talking about times when tribal societies were slowly developing into organized social units (of times when towns were growing into cities). Those were times when people seem to have doubled as farmers cum soldiers or as merchants cum princes..that is, they were still without fixed birth-based occupations..

Lets put it this way, the itihaasa mahabharat (if at all it really happened) happened before the smrithis were written. Krishna was the son of a leader of the cowherds. But some smrithis relegate the occupation of cow-herding to that of shudras and some others to that of vaishyas, but not one smrithi assigns cow-herding as an occupation of kshatriyas. However, krishna is claimed to be a kshatriya.

Similarly, some say Ikshvakus were just sugarcane farmers. On similar lines, Satyawati the daughter of a chieftain of fishermen, is claimed to be a kshatriya by some versions of the mahabharat. But no smrithi considers the occupation of fishermen as kshatriyas... So am really wondering about this job (jaati) allotment business wrt varna.

Whatever it was in the early tribal and semi-tribal times, still, the only section outside of this gurukulam model seems to have been that of the menial workers. No idea how they came about. Probably this section surfaced as villages / towns grew into cities, and menial workers were needed to manage sewerage systems, etc..

Am told that the later sections of rigveda mentions chamars. But am also told that there is nothing therein, to show that they were considered untouchables.

Its possible that the dalit section were outcastes, created from the mainstream social populations. Example, banjaras consider themselves as sutas, or bards, who were made into outcastes. Such a claim cud be true, because in andhra, in terms of genetics, sections of banjaras are no different from the following castes: kapu naidu, kapu reddy, brahmin, raju and kamma.

It seems (to me) that most untouchables were later-day creations - when one kingdom defeated the other, apparently some defeated soldiery were converted into menial workers. Am told that this happened to rajputs when they fought against muslims.

I wud love to explore this from an academic pov...but i have too much on my plate currently, so maybe i will do it after a few years. Any inputs from you and others on the early social models of india (in different regions of india) are very-very welcome...

The prob is that various monastic traditions of india have not been fully explored. I read somewhere that tridandi sansyasis were present in nepal in ancient times. All really fascinating....the ekadandis and tridandis have been in existence for so long, but by and large i think the shankara matts portrayed themselves as the orthodoxy and therefore the colonialists largely spoke to them and considered their versions as representative of everything in popular hindusim (including the caste system)....

Regards.

PS:
I will be logging in after a few days (going on a short holiday).

Happy New year everyone.

 

[pannvalan]

Dear Sapthajihva,

I always tell my friends:

If I say my mother cooks well, does it mean that others' mothers don't cook well?

If I say my son is very clever, does it imply that others' sons are idiots?

If I say my daughter is beautiful, does it convey a sense that others' daughters are ugly?

If I say my native place is a very good place to live in, all other places/towns are unworthy of living?

If I say my mother tongue is so sweet, ancient and has copious literature, but still growing, will someone interpret it to mean that all other languages are either nascent or barbaric?

No, my dear friend.

Everyone is proud of one's own roots and cultural identity or his possessions.
That's all. There is no extra meaning attached or sought to be conveyed.

So,

I am proud to be a Tamil and that too, a Tamil brahmin.

 

[Jambu]

Dear Pannavalan

It remainds me of the saying Kakai ki Than Kunju Pon Kunju

 

[pannvalan]

So be it, Jambu.

 

[pannvalan]

Yesterday, there was a discussion on inter-caste marriages in the "Neeya, Naana?"
programme on Vijay TV.

Except a few, most of the participants were less than 30 years old and married for less than 5 years.

I gained some more inputs from that programme.

1. In majority of the cases, it was the girl who had to forsake her old identity and adopt the caste and/or religion of the boy. before or after the marriage. In many cases, changing the religion and
the name was a pre-condition for marriage.

2. In a few cases, the boy took to the religion of the girl. I do not have any
information about the caste or the common language agreed upon by both. In
case of Hindu boys, the women told they changed themselves to their husbands'
caste and one NB woman proclaimed that she made her son wear sacred thread
too.

3. In a very few cases, both the boy and the girl agreed to have full liberty in
following their individual faiths or to remain altruistic or irreligious. Here also,
the participants told their children will take the caste identity of the father only.

4. In just one or two cases, both agreed to respect and love each other's religion
and agreed to celebrate the festivals or follow the customs and practices of both
the side.

From all of these, I could observe that only men dictate the terms of living, even in inter-caste marriages, because ours is a male-dominated society.

Another major flaw of this programme was not a single parent of those participants was called to present the other side's arguments.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Pannvalan Sir,

In the case inter-religion marriages I noticed almost all the time Hindus converted to the other religion; only in few cases the individuals followed their individual previous religions. This made me really wonder; I could not find an answer though - Is there a procedure for converting some non- Hindu to Hindu faith? There was a time a Catholic girl desperately wanted to become a Hindu. She sought my advice to seek such a ceremony. I could not think of any. She was advised to contact Arya Samaj. Sir, Can you think of any such converting ritual, please? Thank you.

Cheers!