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Dravidian Nationalism and caste reservation

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Staunch Iyengar's idea of MTDNA and YDNA stuff is the same kind of crap that the British tried to achieve by dividing Indians using the Aryan Invasion Theory.

What do the British have to do with the authenticity and relevance of genetic differences?

It is purely a natural tendency for human races to be averse against other races they encounter, it is a basic reflex. Only political correctness and unnatural laws that enforce "multi-culturalism" and "racial equality" that suppress the innate racism of people from displaying publicly.

I'm not trying to divide Indians. Because Indians already are a divided people. Other than caste, they are divided by ethnocultural(Muslims will always support fellow Muslims) and linguistic/regional affiliations.

The only time Indians come together and feel patriotic is when there are aggressors that target and compartmentalize them. F.e Lebanese-Indian riots in Australia, mistreatment of Indian coolies around the world especially in Singapore and Arabia.

The expatriate Indians in Singapore and Singaporean Indians view themselves as distinct ethnicities. Singaporean Tamils look down upon Indian Tamils as "oorrukarans" and unfashionable and backwards. Mocking their behaviour and dressing by thinking too highly of themselves. And Singaporean Tamils are those descendants of coolies who decided that casteism should be forgotten. They mix freely without inhibitions with regards to race and most of them don't even know their caste ancestry.

Outside India, Indian nationalism/patriotism is only held by adult Indians living abroad that have not entirely assimilated into the larger community of their host nation because they are perceived as being fresh-of-the-boat and therefore inferior.

Indians born overseas and seasoned to the ways of the nation they live in, consider Indians from India to be abhorrent and unworthy of affiliation. And anything that is to be associated with India, they will not proudly claim publicly. That is to say the Singaporean Tamil, has not a single ounce of ethnic Indian Tamil pride nor will he dare speak fluent Tamil in front of other races with his head held high. He will only indulge in Indian bashing, to please non-Indians whether via plain crude vulgarity or caustic comedy or both.

The Dravidian Nationalists, don't give the slightest damn about the welfare of Tamils and Indians or genuine passion for the improvement and progression of India as a nation.

Anti-Brahmin rhetoric is designed to push all the blames and misfortunes of the peoples of Tamizhagam upon Brahmins and make the Brahmin the common denominator, the common enemy in order to unify all other Tamil castes under the pretense of a distinct Dravidian racial identity.

The lower castes in Tamil Nadu are practically what the entire Tamil population composes of compared to the meager 3% of Brahmins.

Brahmins had been the most politically dominant. In order to overthrow their territorial aristocracy and replace themselves, they rallied the populous pariahs against Brahmins through hate speeches.

They falsely claim that throughout history the Brahmin is the reason why Tamils have been a divided people and why Tamil Nadu never actually achieved its supposed potential.

They claim those of the lower castes in particular to be "Dravidians" who are the true aboriginals of Tamil Nadu and India who have been stolen of their dignity.

In reality those who have constantly resisted the British rule, and have sacrificed their lives for the greater good of all of India have been mostly from the Higher Castes and in particular, the Brahmins. (Please see Bengal Regiment and Sepoy Mutiny)

They claim that the lower castes should be given reparation for casteism, which according to them, is a solely Brahmin created institution. They try and justify the disparities of academic achievements between pariahs and Brahmins as owing to the historical suppression of lower castes by Brahmins. And using this claim, they justify the shortcomings of the lower castes by demanding allocation of reservations for the lower castes in academic institutions and workplaces. Despite already land reform movements that had stolen much of the wealth of Brahmins.

Caste reservation is the most crippling vice of modern India.

Niccolo Machiavelli said:
It is in the interest of the weak to design societies that cripple the strong.

It is far more destructive to the progression of India than the casteism upheld by Brahmins. What Brahmins did was basically segregate themselves from others, including segregation practiced by some Brahmins against other Brahmins.

Caste reservation reinforces caste discrimination. It spurs the Hindu to aspire to be socially backward. It celebrates mediocrity and complacency. It denies meritocracy and grants special privileges to accidents of birth.

The British have always stereotyped anything White (or nearly white) is Intelligent/Good/Smart etc and anything that is black is Idiotic/Bad and /Dull.

British have no relevance to the subject at hand. The British were prompted by the forces that behold, to expand their empire and acquire material wealth and natural resources from the regions they conquered.

The British did not claim relations with all the peoples they conquered, not with the Africans and not with the South East Asians. They simply remarked what they observed themselves and those before them. It is natural to be more empathetic to those that are more closely related to you.

Bottom-line :: do not come to any conclusion/ (for that matter even start) based on the Color of skin.

Nobody said anything about skin colour, skin colour is the physical trait that evolves the fastest and has no definitive bearing on racial characteristics.

Lighter skin does not mean being necessarily superior. Equating racial awareness to mere pigmentation of complexion is probably the greatest fraud of the 21st century.
 
SI,

The above post is so exhaustive.Thanks.

nachi naga.
 
Brahmins had been the most politically dominant. In order to overthrow their territorial aristocracy and replace themselves, they rallied the populous pariahs against Brahmins through hate speeches.

.

staunch,

???

what time frame are we discussing here? perhaps the brahmins came to political forefront only since early 20th century,with the strengthening of the fight against the english?

also, do we use words like 'paraya' still, in this context? is there not a better or gentler word?

thank you.
 
staunch,

???

what time frame are we discussing here? perhaps the brahmins came to political forefront only since early 20th century,with the strengthening of the fight against the english?

Well Brahmins have been ministers and advisors in the courts of Tamil Rajas were they not? So technically atleast they were aristocratic since the time of Sangam Illakkiyam.

also, do we use words like 'paraya' still, in this context? is there not a better or gentler word?

thank you.

I use pariah because its an umbrella and short term that refers to shudras/dalits/adivasis collectively. I can't use the term low caste because adivasis and dalits do not belong to the caste system.

Pariah isn't exactly a derogatory word. Its like using the term Pundit. It is not titles that honour men but men that honour titles. Really offensive words are not used by Brahmins in general anyways.

I would appreciate a suggestion of another term, that is short and yet having the same meaning.

Thank you,
 
What do the British have to do with the authenticity and relevance of genetic differences?

What is this genetic difference that you claim is authentic and relevant? Please be specific so that we can understand what you are saying.


Only political correctness and unnatural laws that enforce "multi-culturalism" and "racial equality" that suppress the innate racism of people from displaying publicly.
Suppressing/overcoming some ugly qualities that people may have is the mark of a decdent human being. Letting loose all your demons without control is natural only for beasts.

...(Muslims will always support fellow Muslims) and linguistic/regional affiliations.
I suppose you have yourself done some anthropological studies or studied ones done by scholars to come to this nugget of a conclusion!! If so, please put up.

....

  • Singaporean Tamils look down upon Indian Tamils as "oorrukarans"
  • fresh-of-the-boat and therefore inferior.
  • Indians born overseas [...] consider Indians from India to be abhorrent
  • That is to say the Singaporean Tamil, has not a single ounce of ethnic Indian Tamil pride
  • to please non-Indians whether via plain crude vulgarity or caustic comedy or both.
Are you projecting your feelings upon every group of people? All of the above is complete hateful drivel.

The lower castes in Tamil Nadu are practically what the entire Tamil population composes of compared to the meager 3% of Brahmins.

Brahmins had been the most politically dominant. In order to overthrow their territorial aristocracy and replace themselves, they rallied the populous pariahs against Brahmins through hate speeches.
This is getting too vile for me. Recently Suramaniam Swamy got into lot of trouble for using the "P" word.

Caste reservation system worked fine for centuries for Brahmins. Now that it is working the other way around, many of them have become big-time whiners.

Oh well, all I can hope is these kind of hate-mongers don't get any traction.
 
Nara,

You still don't get it do you.Dr.Subramaniam Swamy is a Brahmin,aligned with Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham.Naturally Dravidian parties will have to be anti Dr.SS.No one is whining here.Tambrams are really hard working lot and forward looking.Just look at this owner of the website,he is just awesome youngster harnessing one and all doing community service with a global reach.Kudos gentlemen.

nachi naga.
 
re

Oh, Nachi, I need to worry only when I get what you get. As long as I don't get what you get, I am in good shape.

Nara,

Ouch.I'm glad you are in good shape,for a moment i did visualise a 'irutla pudicha kozhakatta' though i luv kozhkattais in any form or shape.:loco:(this is meant as a joke and plz treat this line as such).

nachi naga.
 
...Ouch.I'm glad you are in good shape


Hi Nachi, glad you have a sense of humor. that little "ouch" says volumes :).

I know our life paradigms do not intersect, but I respect anyone who can laugh at himself.
 
Reservation has reached dead end in Tamilnadu

I think the reservations issue has reached its dead end in Tamilnadu.

Kudos to our youngsters, they have overcome the issue without even slightest murmur and have started flying globally.

Our community is avoiding Government jobs totally. Now they have started avoiding even public sector jobs. Very few members of our community is going to medical colleges. Even legal courses are avoided to great extent. They are coming out of accountancy/audit professions also to a great extent since rampant corruption is going on in the revenue departments. Even if they pass accountancy/secretarial courses, they join private sector jobs which are very attractive.

Software, BPO, Call Center is being patronized by our community to a great extent which also provides stepping stones for migrating outside India. I think we should continue to be associated with Investment Banking/Wealth Management sectors which provides great opportunities.

Reservation has become a laughing stuff. I think it has not reached the real targeted sections and only rich & well to do among these communities are enjoying the benefits. Some smoke has already started among these poor and downtrodden members of these communities. Let us watch it from the sidelines.

All the best
 
Recently Suramaniam Swamy got into lot of trouble for using the "P" word.

prof ji,

the recent that you are talking about is roughly 10 years old. :)

dr swamy used the "p" word while discussing the tigers, ltte. he said that ltte has become the "international pariah" to signify that ltte has been ostracized and didnt enjoy the mass support that it claimed to have.

thanks to the puerile mindset of tamil nadu backed by the inadequacy of the dravidian politicians, the word was twisted out of context.

i am actually surprised that of all the people, you and kunjuppu - ji think that pariah refers to the outcastes of india. it doesnt.

i would step back now and look forward to your notes on this interesting topic.

stauch iyengar does make some valid observations.
 
hi hari,

perhaps i was not clear as to where i was coming from.

the use of certain terms change with time, as the connotations they imply, reflect the sensitivites of the society. or the lack of it.

for example, the beautiful english word 'gay', is alas, no longer what it commonly meant even 40 years ago, when i was a high school student.

'why do fools fall in love... birds sing so gay' could be chart topper for the supremes in the 60s, but the same term is seldom used today to mean the same thing.

it was in this context that i referred to 'paraiah''. again, it was a query to staunch, as to whether the term was still in vogue in india, as i do not know.

paraiah, even though now a days, in many references, is a neutral term to a community which is trying hard to uplift itself, in my younger days, had very negative & insulting implications.

one did not use it in polite circles. the street dogs were termed 'pariah dogs' in indo anglian literature. 'international pariah' is an outcaste terminology where the stress on the insult, is on the second word.

i think, this term is not popular anymore in the english language, but i could be wrong. which is why, i thought, i will ask staunch.

whereas, in direct contrast, the term 'brahmin' implied always an enhanced status as in 'boston brahmin'.

my post's focus was not on the topic of the thread itself, but usage of certain words. certainly, thats ok too, i pray?

incidentally, in the west, the use of deragatory nicknames has been frowned severely these past decade. one no longer uses the term nigger, chink, paki etc here except as an epithet. whereas i found, my relatives in india, used the term nigger, chink, to mean inoffensively blacks and chinese. no amount of me telling them that it was offensive, seem to make any impression on them, as they continue to use such terms and more such like.

thank you.

ps. i drop in regularly to your blogs. good stuff :)
 
kunjuppu,

one ammachi hug from me to you,for the above post.Truth is in your post.Yes,instead of "P" word,economically downtroddenwherein all communities are there is more apt.India is a melted pot.The die has been cast.Its to the credit of political leaders,India is unified,kudos to them.I am inclusive of Dravidian parties too,as they motivate Brahmins tremendously,to have our self-respect in tact and progress in our lives.

nachi naga.
 
kunjuppu ji,

i get your perspectives. thank you.


again, it was a query to staunch, as to whether the term was still in vogue in india, as i do not know.

no, it isnt. though we have 'curd' and 'prepone' dates, we dont use such terms anymore. 80% dont know the spelling & meaning, 19% dont know the meaning, 1% who know both, dare not.

it will create a political storm, you see.

one no longer uses the term nigger, chink, paki etc here except as an epithet. whereas i found, my relatives in india, used the term nigger, chink, to mean inoffensively blacks and chinese.

nigger is downright bad especially considering the strong relations india has with the african continent and the loot that patels do there. :)

chink is just about ok, i guess, coz not many chinese know english. atleast as of now.

paki, come on sir, this IS ok.... i mean if we cannot insult pakistanis, whom would we turn to ? and i am a firm believer that even the nicest of men (women incl ofcourse) need to have atleast one vice.

i have absolutely no intentions of forwarding my application to the vatican for sainthood. and so paki is right.

pakistan is ofcouse the 'stan' (place, hideout) of pakis.

a question....why do you think the national airlines of pakistan is named pia ?

ps. i drop in regularly to your blogs. good stuff :)

thank you sir. grateful.
 
a question....why do you think the national airlines of pakistan is named pia ?

thanks hari.

i do not understand :help:

pia? peeyah? paiyah? புரியல்லையே

ofcourse, it goes without saying, that pia is not within my flightplan radar any time. :)
 
india's official airline is called AI - Air India....like wise pakistan's official airline is called PIA - Pakistan International Airlines..

so we thought...

but in reality, if anyone is unfortunate enough to fly PIA, they should know that it actually stands for 'please inform allah'

staunch, prof ji and others - excuse this digression.
 
Dear HariJi

Paki might be ok in India but here in Britian Paki is an unbelievably deragotary word and using it on South Asians or just saying can land you in big trouble and even in prison.

Paki is always spelt/written P*** here and its in the same category as the N word for blacks. In the 60s and 70s White Britons used paki and still some do on all South Asians here. Basically all brown people are paki. So its understandable because ofits racist connotations, the word is very offensive. In Britian all of us are pakis...yes even Indians.
 
re

Dear HariJi

Paki might be ok in India but here in Britian Paki is an unbelievably deragotary word and using it on South Asians or just saying can land you in big trouble and even in prison.

Paki is always spelt/written P*** here and its in the same category as the N word for blacks. In the 60s and 70s White Britons used paki and still some do on all South Asians here. Basically all brown people are paki. So its understandable because ofits racist connotations, the word is very offensive. In Britian all of us are pakis...yes even Indians.

Amala,

Brits are worse off than Dravidians then.Sad to know this Indians are also tagged with pain in the a** (pia).

nachi naga.
 
india's official airline is called AI - Air India....like wise pakistan's official airline is called PIA - Pakistan International Airlines..

so we thought...

but in reality, if anyone is unfortunate enough to fly PIA, they should know that it actually stands for 'please inform allah'

staunch, prof ji and others - excuse this digression.


thanks hari. :) you already know that you are dealing with a மர மண்டை here.
 
Dear Nachiji, I realise you're kidding but you do see that for the average Caucasian person we're all the same, whether we are Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani etc, don't you? All the banter/hatred/difference we have is relative. That was my point really.
 
What is this genetic difference that you claim is authentic and relevant? Please be specific so that we can understand what you are saying.

Humans are not a single race but a specie.

There is enough genetic diversity within humanity to classify them as separate identifiable races.

Suppressing/overcoming some ugly qualities that people may have is the mark of a decdent human being. Letting loose all your demons without control is natural only for beasts.

No one talked about gathering a mob, with weapons clutched in the hand and fists pumped in air shouting derogatory words and beating up people who you see as being distinct from you.

Its about the right to express racial differences. Which in the current politically correct atmosphere is impossible without being persecuted.

I suppose you have yourself done some anthropological studies or studied ones done by scholars to come to this nugget of a conclusion!! If so, please put up.

Anthropological studies on this subject are scarce due to distortion of truth and history to appease those in subject.

But I recommend works of Sita Ram Goel. The fact that he was slandered without a single refutation of the facts he presented, his persecution by the Indian government and the bans imposed on his works are testament to the political correctness of the Indian government.

Are you projecting your feelings upon every group of people? All of the above is complete hateful drivel.

Ha! Very nice to accuse me of spewing hateful drivel.

I guess theres no point in trying to reason with you when you have made up your mind on being anti-Brahmin, anti-Hindu and anti-Indid.

I live in Singapore and have many Tamil Singporean friends. So I know this based upon personal experience.

This is getting too vile for me.

Again, its not titles that honour men but men that honour. A word hold as much of value as that of those it is used to refer to.

In India. especially among Tamil Brahmins the word "paraiya" is used to refer to all non-High Castes in vernacular speech.

If its about a derogatory word that is used against dalits, it is "sandalam" or "para-<fill in choice of cuss word>. The latter is used by non-Brahmins.

Caste reservation system worked fine for centuries for Brahmins.

Yes evil we Brahmins reserved the tedious tasks of ritually cleansing the world by constant tapas, meditating for hours a day and living in poverty for ourselves. Wretched creatures aren't we?

Now that it is working the other way around, many of them have become big-time whiners.

Anti-Brahmin reasoning, Brahmins "oppressed" the other castes therefore caste reservation is rightfully justified. Thanks to people like you, me and countless other Tamil Brahmins have ended up in places like America, Europe and Singapore where we are judged not by our race but by our capabilities and are allowed to excel in our host society.

Enjoy the brain drain.

Education of Singaporean Indians

Singaporean Indian students who attend primary school are largely local Singaporean Tamils. The score for A levels and university courses are higher than national average and other ethnicities is owing to the greater admission of Brahmin student immigrants from India who were denied equal footing in education back home due to caste discrimination.

Indians in Singapore score the lowest for PSLE(Primary School Leaving Examination). In 2004, only 73% of Indians among the Primary One cohort were admitted to a post-secondary institution, compared with 86% for the Chinese, and 75% for the Malays. In the same year, 73.7% of Indian students received 5 or more passes in the Singaporean GCE 'O' Level examinations, compared with 86.5% of Chinese students and 59.3% of Malays. Given their performance in the 'O' level examinations, it would appear Indians would have been under represented among students who sat for the 'A' level examination. However, those Indians who did reach the 'A' level and sat for this exam marginally outperformed the national average. 93% of Indians received 2 'A' and 2 'AO' level passes, compared with 92.6% among Chinese students, and 92.3% nationally.

I studied my primary, secondary and junior college in Singapore. I very rarely met any Brahmin kids in primary and secondary school years and I did(and still do) have a wide network of friends.

But when I was doing my JC, I went to an elite school and in the class that I was in atleast 25% of the Indian students in my class were Brahmins.

Oh well, all I can hope is these kind of hate-mongers don't get any traction.

I hope all anti-Brahmins/anti-Hindus get what they deserve. That is absolutely no attention and sympathy.
 
What is this genetic difference that you claim is authentic and relevant? Please be specific so that we can understand what you are saying.

Humans are not a single race but a specie.

There is enough genetic diversity within humanity to classify them as separate identifiable races.

Suppressing/overcoming some ugly qualities that people may have is the mark of a decdent human being. Letting loose all your demons without control is natural only for beasts.

No one talked about gathering a mob, with weapons clutched in the hand and fists pumped in air shouting derogatory words and beating up people who you see as being distinct from you.

Its about the right to express racial differences. Which in the current politically correct atmosphere is impossible without being persecuted.

I suppose you have yourself done some anthropological studies or studied ones done by scholars to come to this nugget of a conclusion!! If so, please put up.

Anthropological studies on this subject are scarce due to distortion of truth and history to appease those in subject.

But I recommend works of Sita Ram Goel. The fact that he was slandered without a single refutation of the facts he presented, his persecution by the Indian government and the bans imposed on his works are testament to the political correctness of the Indian government.

Are you projecting your feelings upon every group of people? All of the above is complete hateful drivel.

Ha! Very nice to accuse me of spewing hateful drivel.

I guess theres no point in trying to reason with you when you have made up your mind on being anti-Brahmin, anti-Hindu and anti-Indid.

I live in Singapore and have many Tamil Singporean friends. So I know this based upon personal experience.

This is getting too vile for me.

Again, its not titles that honour men but men that honour. A word hold as much of value as that of those it is used to refer to.

In India. especially among Tamil Brahmins the word "paraiya" is used to refer to all non-High Castes in vernacular speech.

If its about a derogatory word that is used against dalits, it is "sandalam" or "para-<fill in choice of cuss word>. The latter is used by non-Brahmins.

Caste reservation system worked fine for centuries for Brahmins.

Yes evil we Brahmins reserved the tedious tasks of ritually cleansing the world by constant tapas, meditating for hours a day and living in poverty for ourselves. Wretched creatures aren't we?

Now that it is working the other way around, many of them have become big-time whiners.

Anti-Brahmin reasoning, Brahmins "oppressed" the other castes therefore caste reservation is rightfully justified. Thanks to people like you, me and countless other Tamil Brahmins have ended up in places like America, Europe and Singapore where we are judged not by our race but by our capabilities and are allowed to excel in our host society.

Enjoy the brain drain.

Education of Singaporean Indians

Singaporean Indian students who attend primary school are largely local Singaporean Tamils. The score for A levels and university courses are higher than national average and other ethnicities is owing to the greater admission of Brahmin student immigrants from India who were denied equal footing in education back home due to caste discrimination.

Indians in Singapore score the lowest for PSLE(Primary School Leaving Examination). In 2004, only 73% of Indians among the Primary One cohort were admitted to a post-secondary institution, compared with 86% for the Chinese, and 75% for the Malays. In the same year, 73.7% of Indian students received 5 or more passes in the Singaporean GCE 'O' Level examinations, compared with 86.5% of Chinese students and 59.3% of Malays. Given their performance in the 'O' level examinations, it would appear Indians would have been under represented among students who sat for the 'A' level examination. However, those Indians who did reach the 'A' level and sat for this exam marginally outperformed the national average. 93% of Indians received 2 'A' and 2 'AO' level passes, compared with 92.6% among Chinese students, and 92.3% nationally.

I studied my primary, secondary and junior college in Singapore. I very rarely met any Brahmin kids in primary and secondary school years and I did(and still do) have a wide network of friends.

But when I was doing my JC, I went to an elite school and in the class that I was in atleast 25% of the Indian students in my class were Brahmins.

Oh well, all I can hope is these kind of hate-mongers don't get any traction.

I hope all anti-Brahmins/anti-Hindus get what they deserve. That is absolutely no attention and sympathy.
 
Oh right but you can totally use a disrespectful word.

Oh pardon me, I'm such an evil heartless Brahmin for judging you.

in case it was not clear, the said மர மண்டை is yours truly ie me.

hari can confirm this :)

so, in this context, i do not understand your post. which again proves my point re my மர மண்டை ness.
 
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