Dravidian Nationalism and caste reservation

[nachi naga]

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Dear Nachiji, I realise you're kidding but you do see that for the average Caucasian person we're all the same, whether we are Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani etc, don't you? All the banter/hatred/difference we have is relative. That was my point really.

amala,

i agree with your reasoning.But,can we absolve ourselves too ie saarc nationalities,in viewing other races like for example caucasian,africans,aborigines..etc.I think,we from Indian sub-continent have enuff bias too against other races,its just that we are passive.Good humor is produced by canadian stand in comedian russell peters.Thats why i always maintain,humans are one in outlook,be it negative or positive,everything exists all over the world.Though gurus,teach us,deivam manushya rupenam.

nachi naga.

 

[nachi naga]

kunjuppu,si

both of you posses incredible sense of humor.nice.at least i as a "maanga mandai" thinks so.

nachi naga.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

in case it was not clear, the said மர மண்டை is yours truly ie me.

hari can confirm this

so, in this context, i do not understand your post. which again proves my point re my மர மண்டை ness.

I know it means nothing more than block head but Brahmin boys don't use any form of disrespectful words at home or infront of elders despite whatever they do outside.

However it is my bad for thinking you used against someone else because I did not read the whole conversation.

 

[Staunch_Iyengar]

Dear Nachiji, I realise you're kidding but you do see that for the average Caucasian person we're all the same, whether we are Indian, Bangladeshi, Pakistani etc, don't you? All the banter/hatred/difference we have is relative. That was my point really.

Definate "Caucasian".

A Caucasian is a person from the Caucasus.

It is completely irrelevant if someone is ignorant to the differences. Just as to an Indian, all Africans are the same regardless whether they are a San, Nigerian, Pygmy, Egyptian or Somali.

Do you care to allow someone else to validate your own personal identity? How weak and pathetic is that?!

Pakis are an obnoxious bunch and they tend to impose their Islamofascism upon others. The White Brits started calling Indians as Pakis because they knew Indians loathe Pakistani and would be greatly offended, hence; "Paki".

 

[happyhindu]

Humans are not a single race but a specie.

There is enough genetic diversity within humanity to classify them as separate identifiable races.

Am not sure what exactly you mean by "race" and "caste" esp wrt your post on an other thread. Request you to please be more clear, have asked for a few clarifications here: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...g-attracted-towards-nb-boys-43.html#post40830

No one talked about gathering a mob, with weapons clutched in the hand and fists pumped in air shouting derogatory words and beating up people who you see as being distinct from you.

Its about the right to express racial differences. Which in the current politically correct atmosphere is impossible without being persecuted.

So-called racial 'differences' are spoken about freely in some circles (Eg: susceptibility of 'jewish' ppl to certain cancers, etc). There is no malice, racial hatered or upmanship attitude in those discussions. Its obvious the connotation of the "right to express racial differences" is not the same here, esp with some certain elements.

Anti-Brahmin reasoning, Brahmins "oppressed" the other castes therefore caste reservation is rightfully justified. Thanks to people like you, me and countless other Tamil Brahmins have ended up in places like America, Europe and Singapore where we are judged not by our race but by our capabilities and are allowed to excel in our host society.

Enjoy the brain drain.

Education of Singaporean Indians

Singaporean Indian students who attend primary school are largely local Singaporean Tamils. The score for A levels and university courses are higher than national average and other ethnicities is owing to the greater admission of Brahmin student immigrants from India who were denied equal footing in education back home due to caste discrimination.

Indians in Singapore score the lowest for PSLE(Primary School Leaving Examination). In 2004, only 73% of Indians among the Primary One cohort were admitted to a post-secondary institution, compared with 86% for the Chinese, and 75% for the Malays. In the same year, 73.7% of Indian students received 5 or more passes in the Singaporean GCE 'O' Level examinations, compared with 86.5% of Chinese students and 59.3% of Malays. Given their performance in the 'O' level examinations, it would appear Indians would have been under represented among students who sat for the 'A' level examination. However, those Indians who did reach the 'A' level and sat for this exam marginally outperformed the national average. 93% of Indians received 2 'A' and 2 'AO' level passes, compared with 92.6% among Chinese students, and 92.3% nationally.

I studied my primary, secondary and junior college in Singapore. I very rarely met any Brahmin kids in primary and secondary school years and I did(and still do) have a wide network of friends.

But when I was doing my JC, I went to an elite school and in the class that I was in atleast 25% of the Indian students in my class were Brahmins.

So whatz the connection b/w the indian brain drain and the singapore education system? What really are you trying to convey?

 

[Brahmanyan]

Very good analysis of an important subject. Many thanks to "Staunch Iyengar" . Also I enjoyed reading scholarly discussions by other members. At present I am going through the autobiography of Mahamahopadhyaya Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Aiyar "என் சரித்திரம் " written in early last century. The book gives an elaborate account of the social life of a poor Brahmin Tamil scholar. Interestingly he describes the help and support given by people belonging to other communities to pursue his love for study of Tamil Literature..The author has not uttered a single word against any one in his autobiography, instead he was full of praise for the Saiva atheenams and other Tamil Scholars from other communities for their love and support that he got..
Time permits I wish other members of our Forum go through this wonderful book once.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.

​

 

[tbs]

Very good analysis of an important subject. Many thanks to "Staunch Iyengar" . Also I enjoyed reading scholarly discussions by other members. At present I am going through the autobiography of Mahamahopadhyaya Dr. U.V. Swaminatha Aiyar "என் சரித்திரம் " written in early last century. The book gives an elaborate account of the social life of a poor Brahmin Tamil scholar. Interestingly he describes the help and support given by people belonging to other communities to pursue his love for study of Tamil Literature..The author has not uttered a single word against any one in his autobiography, instead he was full of praise for the Saiva atheenams and other Tamil Scholars from other communities for their love and support that he got..
Time permits I wish other members of our Forum go through this wonderful book once.
Regards,
Brahmanyan.

​

hi brahmanyan sir,
romba nalaachu inge paarthu...nice to see u again sir,..i joined
this forum....becoz of u....i think 3 years back.....romba nanri ayya..
even the same situation for mahakavi subramanya bharati....

regards
tbs

 

[Brahmanyan]

Dear Sri tbs,

Nice to see you too. I do remember the சிங்கநல்லூர் நமக்கார ஸ்மார்த்தர். (In fact my maternal grand mother belongs to Singanallur). Yes I have been hibernating for some months doing nothing worthwhile. But I must say that Tamil Brahmins Forum is doing very well and I find good posts by our new members.

Warm Regards,
Brahmanyan.

 

[Nara]

...dr swamy used the "p" word while discussing the tigers, ltte. he said that ltte has become the "international pariah" to signify that ltte has been ostracized ....

thanks to the puerile mindset of tamil nadu backed by the inadequacy of the dravidian politicians, the word was twisted out of context.

Dear Hari, Harvard educated shrewd politician ought to know better. As you have pointed out the word is imported into English to indicate ostracization, in other words, untouchability.

am actually surprised that of all the people, you and kunjuppu - ji think that pariah refers to the outcastes of india. it doesnt.

Dear Hari, Pariah is a caste name. Among the Dalits they are the most prevalent. They are indeed outcastes of the caste system.

This word itself has been around for a long time, since Sanga days. Initially it may not have meant as a name for a caste. But, in due course of time, the word became the name of an outcaste. By the uppercastes it is always used in a disparaging and hateful way. This is why this word was outlawed.

For Mr.S to select this word to refer to everyone other than Brahmin is downright vile. That is why I am surprised that a bard like yourself thinks, "stauch iyengar does make some valid observations."

Please indulge me and tell me what part of the Mr.S's observations you find valid. We can then talk about if you would do me the honor of a discussion.

The same goes for Shri. Brahmanyan, who says:

Originally Posted by Brahmanyan
Very good analysis of an important subject. Many thanks to "Staunch Iyengar" .

I request you sir to explain this a little further. What part of the analysis did you find "good"? I am eager to debate this with the reasonable people of this forum.

Cheers!

 

[hariharan1972]

prof nara ji,

you shouldnt do this to me ....i thought we were friends !

sir, when you can blow me over with your breath, where's the need for a weapon ?

you dont have to use a hammer to swat a fly like me.

bard ? me ? hell, no !....i am struggling to qualify as a philistine.

when i said that staunch ji was making some valid observations, i am referring to his very first post of this thread.

the summary of his first post is :

a) dravidian nationalism (dn) isnt genuine

b) dn has only strived to replace brahmanical hegemony with obc hegemony...they have never strived or will never strive for a true egalitarian society

c) caste based reservations ensure that caste is kept well, alive and kicking

d) dravidians have been successfully spreading the canard that it is the brahmins who are persecuting the dalits...the reality of today and indeed the last 50 years is different....while brahmins have ostracized other castes from religious responsibilities due to a rigid interpretation of religion, they are not responsible for the economic deprivation of the dalits...it is absolutely a canard to suggest otherwise.

e) dravidian politicians have a fetish for the (generally) fair skinned upper caste women...there is no dravidian politician of tn who didnt have a brahmin paramour....so much so for their anti-brahmin rhetoric

these are the valid observations in the first note of staunch ji...

i wasnt referring to his choice of the "p" word.....

 

[Nara]

...
you shouldnt do this to me ....i thought we were friends !

Dear Hari, are you disarming me with your charm so that you can come in for the figurative "kill" when I am floating smugly in my own vanity

Seriously though, I think reasonable people should discuss difficult issues so that a proper and nuanced understanding is shared by all. In this context, I do respect my brothers like Raju, Saptha, etc. with whom I have disagreed, but was able to have decent conversation. But, of and on, there have been times when people just come in and dump their distasteful opinions as though they are irrefutable facts and then go away, only to come back and do it all over again, like Mr.S. This is the reason why I am trying to coax you to talk to me.

Please permit me to give my comments on your points and I urge you to discuss with me as time permits.

I start with the observation that one has to wade through a lot of Mr.S's bile to get to these points out.

a) dravidian nationalism (dn) isnt genuine

b) dn has only strived to replace brahmanical hegemony with obc hegemony...they have never strived or will never strive for a true egalitarian society

I agree with both (a) and (b), even though my view of (a) may differ from yours slightly. If your point is that the DN, as practiced by DK/DMK types, is not genuine, I agree. However, I do think a benign form of DN in which everyone can participate, something like the civil-rights movement in the U.S., is not a bad thing - a movement that is inclusive and celebratory of the past culture.

c) caste based reservations ensure that caste is kept well, alive and kicking

This is true. I would favor a point-based reservation system in which factors such as family status, occupation of parents, etc. are taken into account. But this is difficult to implement. When caste is used as an easy way of determining the need for affirmative action, it has this regretful side-effect you cite. Hopefully, when the cancer is in remission there won't be any need for this caste-reaffirming reservation system. Some may argue that so long as caste-based reservation exists, caste won't go away. May be they are right. In that case, the only solution is to get rid of this caste system.

In any case, I think this is a complex problem without an easy simple-minded solution. Grass-roots level change from the young folks will make this problem go away after a few generations. Elders must help this along and not be a road block.

d) dravidians have been successfully spreading the canard that it is the brahmins who are persecuting the dalits...

I disagree with this. The system that has produced these horrific conditions of systematic and hierarchical exploitation is called Brahminism. It is the brahmin orthodoxy that defends and preserves this system. It is under their intellectual support this system of hierarchical exploitation was implemented and sustained.

Even though the more upper caste Hindus than Brahmins were perpetrating economic persecution, it is the Brahminism of the Brahmins that they were able to cite to justify their actions. It is the Brahmins who agreed with this exploitation as moral.

I know that this is a touchy point. You may just want to leave this at the level of agree to disagree. I would understand it if that is your stand. However, I would like you to discuss this further.

e) dravidian politicians have a fetish for the (generally) fair skinned upper caste women...there is no dravidian politician of tn who didnt have a brahmin paramour....so much so for their anti-brahmin rhetoric

Did Mr.S make this point?

The dravidian politicians are a bunch of buffoons who leach on the masses, parasites the lot of them, well at least quite a lot of them. But the fair-skin fetish is common to all. Some light skinned blacks look down upon dark skinned ones.

these are the valid observations in the first note of staunch ji...

i wasnt referring to his choice of the "p" word.....

Of course not, I knew that.

When it comes to social issues there are many causes and effects, we can debate them all. But, grabbing on to a few contentious issues and flying off the handle the way Mr.S. did must not be countenanced by reasonable people in any shape or form, for it may only encourage more such outbursts.

Thanks Hari, your response will be much appreciated...

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

Nara,

The dravidian politicians are a bunch of buffoons who leach on the masses, parasites the lot of them, well at least quite a lot of them. But the fair-skin fetish is common to all. Some light skinned blacks look down upon dark skinned ones.

Don't you think,you are bit too harsh on Dravidians?While i am glad,that you did not sweep all of them or club them together.All human emotions exist in every part of the world,why pick on the African-American only,strange are your ways !!

nachi naga.

 

[anandb]

I disagree with this. The system that has produced these horrific conditions of systematic and hierarchical exploitation is called Brahminism. It is the brahmin orthodoxy that defends and preserves this system. It is under their intellectual support this system of hierarchical exploitation was implemented and sustained.

Even though the more upper caste Hindus than Brahmins were perpetrating economic persecution, it is the Brahminism of the Brahmins that they were able to cite to justify their actions. It is the Brahmins who agreed with this exploitation as moral.

Cheers!

Shri. Nara,

May be you would care to elaborate in support of your above line of argument. Is it based on some statistical evidence and if so can you name them for me? To me it seems to be a pretty serious charge.

Thanks.

 

[Nara]

....May be you would care to elaborate in support of your above line of argument. Is it based on some statistical evidence and if so can you name them for me? To me it seems to be a pretty serious charge.

Dear Anand, the varna/caste system is the one that gives the intellectual and moral justification for all the oppression. The Brahminsim of Brahmins is the designer, protector and defender of this system. கைப்புண்ண்க்கு கண்ணாடியா வேண்டும்.

Cheers!

 

[anandb]

Dear Anand, the varna/caste system is the one that gives the intellectual and moral justification for all the oppression. The Brahminsim of Brahmins is the designer, protector and defender of this system. கைப்புண்ண்க்கு கண்ணாடியா வேண்டும்.

Cheers!

Okay, I thought you had other evidence than just your perceptions about the varna system. If it is just varna then i would not like to get into a discussion as this has been flogged to death in all the threads.

Thanks.

 

[hariharan1972]

prof nara -ji,

you are too kind to label my confessions as my attempts to charm you....

at the outset, sir, let me assure you that my note was only restricted to the first post of staunch ji and shouldnt be seen as an endorsement of all his points and subsequent exchanges with you.

i have also learned the hard way, the way to have a decent conversation ; hence i dont feel qualified to comment about the methods of another poster.

now to the substantive part of your note :

sir, i hope you'll agree with me that evaluation of a system / method / movement should be based on what it really represents rather than what it "can or should" represent.

quite immodestly, i consider myself as some kind of an expert on "dravidian politics / politicians" and hence i wish to assure you that the "only" form of dravidian nationalism is the one patronized by the dk/dmk.

i am sure you wouldnt have also forgotten the fact that dmk was clamouring for a seperate "country" and once it realized the futility of it's agenda, it has toned it down to a parochial, narrow minded bigotry.

the only comparison for the dravidian brand of parochialism is in the form of the sena which haunts mumbai and maharashtra.

the "benign form" of dravidian nationalism is a non-starter. thundering rhetoric fuelling hatred for brahmins and driving a wedge between the north and south has been the 'usp' of dravidian politicians.

re : getting rid of caste system : i have always wondered about it.

urban india is caste agnostic ; inter mingling of castes in urban india is happening at a rate which would in all probability obviate caste in less than a decade.

today caste is alive only because of 3 factors

a) political stakes

b) rural india controlled / dominated by obcs

c) reservations (from 2000 backward communities in 1950s india today has 4000 backward communities. juxtapose this with the fact that india has one of the highest gdp rates !)

brahmins dont contribute to any of the above reasons.

so how does one get "rid of the caste system" ?

legislate ? but we have already done that !

burn/banish manu smriti ? but who is bothering about it ?

the truth of the matter is that till the obc's of the country reform themselves, caste system will not be eliminated.

there are 2 frightening scenarios that are evidently possible in india, both of which would mean that india's supposed secularism would take a backseat. :

a) india becomes a christian nation - overt and covert (like a certain member who was recently banned) evangelizers do to us what they did to the african continent

b) bow to the jihadis and islamize the nation

to prevent this, my suggestion is to "overlook" caste ; allow caste to die naturally; remove "caste discrimination" and it has to start with the reservations

re : brahmin orthodoxy

sir, over the last few years where i have been active in various forums, i have come across 3 kinds of brahmins

a) ossified brahmins

b) couldnt-care-less-brahmins

c) self-deprecatory brahmins

though you are an atheist, just for the classification, i put you and shri kunjuppu in the 3rd category.

the first group wants a return to the caste system, the second isnt bothered about the society and the 3rd category feels "obliged" to take "disproportionate" share of the blame. mainly because they are such fine gentlemen.

oh well, i almost forgot, there has to be a 4th category which includes the likes of me, who dont want obfuscate the role of the brahmins in keeping the religion secluded from other communities but at the same time "brave enough" (if i may say) to "call a spade a shovel" atleast.

the varna system clearly didnt specify any economic role for the brahmins ; the role visualized for the brahmins was that of a religious guru;

brahmins were never known to hold vast tracts of land nor did they engage in any form of economic activity.

i find it strange that you should argue that economic oppression of the obc's stemmed from or found saction from the religious ostracization of the brahmins.

i can appreciate your point that the obc's treated the outcastes the way they were treated by the brahmins but it didnt warrant an extension into the economic sphere.

i am also not convinced about your statement that brahmins endorsed such economic oppression. there's hardly any evidence for this.

sample this : last 40 years of dravidian rule in tn ; no brahmins virtually in tn villages ; but untouchability thrives in every village of tn ;

now to put the blame at the doorsteps of the brahmins is a tactical, machiavellian ploy of the obc goons who keep deflecting criticism 'upwards'.

re : dravidian politicians penchant for fair-skinned dames, staunch did touch upon it but i have made my own point here.

i agree with you that fair-skin fetish is common to all. but for that, fair and lovely wouldnt be so successful in india.

 

[Nara]

Dear Hari, I should have known better than to cajole you to talk to me on this issue, you are a formidable one indeed. I will have to tread with a generous dose of trepidation.

In the following I have taken your words and summarized them. They are not exact quotes, so I won't put them in quotes.

Dravidian Nationalism
Hari's points:

• the "only" form of dravidian nationalism is that of dk/dmk.
• the "benign form" of dravidian nationalism is a non-starter
• DN per se includes thundering rhetoric fueling hatred for brahmins

Formal DN started with the DK people and continued with DMK, with CNA arguing for succession. At one point DMK wanted to have a separate flag for Tamilnadu and fly it in place of the tricolor. CNA also wrote a series of articles critical of requiring Hindi to be taught as the third language. Recently I read these essays, CNA's demagoguery was overwhelming.

So, I have no disagreement with you on the count of DN of the DK and DMK kind. Our difference is only in respect of your stand that a benign form of DN is an oxymoron. Dravidian culture as exemplified by Tamil literature starting from Sanga period to the current Pudumaipittan, Jayakanthan, etc., bhathi movement spearheaded by Azhvars and Nayanmars, music, dance, drama, food, dress, there are so many things that are common among dravidans of all castes, the exalted Brahmins to the humble dalits. Count me as hopelessly and naively optimistic, but I think an inclusive DN is possible and will add value to our society.


Caste system
Hari's points:

• Factors that keep it alive are a) political stakes, b) domination by obcs, c) reservations
• brahmins dont contribute to any of the above reasons.
• getting rid of it can't be done by legislation, or burning manu, the obc's must reform
• more than caste, the greater threat is india becoming a christian nation, or islamized nation
• to prevent this, remove "caste discrimination" by starting with eliminating caste based reservations

I agree with your comments about OBC. I am sure you are familiar with Chandra Bhan Prasad who writes for Pioneer and other newspapers in India. He holds OBC responsible for the current state of Dalits, not Brahmins.

But, Brahmins have a sordid past that they have not come to terms with yet. This is my raison d'etat here in this forum. The Brahmin community overwhelmingly reveres their orthodoxy who stand four-square behind the caste system and practice it with vigor. Untouchability is alive and well among the Brahmins in this setting, not just in villages.

Also, you are way too sanguine about caste being not a factor in cities. It is partly true, caste is not in the open for all to know, as it is in the villages. But, it still fashions their daily life in myriad of ways. Moreover, as you travel further down south, there is a clear bifurcation between B and NB, irrespective of city or village.

You are wrong about nobody caring about Manu. The name "Manu" is ready recognized and it evokes centuries worth of transmitted emotions. You are partly correct, nobody cares whether Manu is followed or not, but most people know that it is the Brahmins and their Dharmashashthras that promote caste based discrimination. So an act like repudiating Manu by the Brahmin orthodoxy will send shock waves across the social order.

I totally disagree with your stand that Christian conversion and Islamization are greater threats for India. Treating them as such will only be counterproductive. In fact I think getting rid of just the hierarchical nature of caste, if that is even possible, will go a long way in keeping the proselytizers away.

Caste is a socio-religious construct. The Brahmin orthodoxy is widely believed as its protectors and defenders. In this context they can play a huge role in its dismantlement. Instead of contributing to unshackling the society from this chain, Brahmins embrace it with gusto.


Brahmin orthodoxy
Hari's points:

• brahmins were never known to hold vast tracts of land nor did they engage in any form of economic activity
• economic oppression of the obc's did not stem from or found sanction from the brahmins.
• brahmins did not endorse economic oppression, hardly any evidence for this.
• in 40 years of dravidian rule - no brahmins in villages, yet untouchability is there
• criticism for its continuance is OBC's not brahmins

Yes hari, brahmins were land owners all over TN. If you go back even 50 to 60 years, from my personal experience I think a majority of brahmin families owned land. Even otherwise, all brahmin families benefited from the land that was worked by the lowest of low castes. All brahmin families benefited from the economic system in which the land owning families, Brahmins or OBC, extracted hard labor from the Dalits and passed on the largess to the landless brahmins.

During the British times Brahmins started moving to towns and cities. Those who moved hired tenant (குத்தகை) farmers and received regular payments mostly in the form of crop yield. My own family, who lived in towns, received paddy and other crop regularly.

Most of these people lost their lands during the land reforms because they were absentee landlords relying on tenant farmers. Brahmins who did not leave, but took care of the cultivation themselves, did not loose their land. I am personally aware of a few such families who to this day are live in villages and make their living as farmers.

Be that as it may, Brahmins were part of the economic system, even in places where they did not own land. The economic system of land owning upper castes and land tilling and working lower castes was sustained on the strength of the socio-religious legitimacy offered by the Brahminical varnashrama system. Without this legitimacy, offered by the system that is protected and defended by the Brahmins with the help of their Dharmashashthras, there is no way the OBC's would have had any success in their exploitation. In other words, there was a nexus between the Brahmins and OBCs that benefited them both for centuries. The Britishers came and upset the apple cart.

Caste-based reservation system
Irrespective how well intentioned it may be, Brahmin opposition to caste-based reservation system will only come across as self-serving. They should get their house in order first, open up all their institutions, veda patashalas, temples, schools, to one and all. Appoint a qualified NB as the head of some of the Mathams -- this must be possible at least among Sri vaishnavas as proficiency in Dhivya Prabhandham is considered equal in status to proficiency in Sanskrit Vedas. Once these are done, then opposition to caste-based reservation by brahmins will find some resonance.

We need to try to do what we can, even though there probably are a lot more that OBCs also will have to do.

Cheers!

 

[nachi naga]

Now the new caste in tamizh nadu is,arasiyal kutumbum.Only arasiyalvadis will and can become engaged in arasiyal aka arasiyalanathan and this is the most backward of all communities,and people should elect them just because their family is in politics..and central govt should fund their election..some comedy...we are witnessing now...

nachi naga.

 

[hariharan1972]

prof nara ji,

i need to thank you for the honor of having this debate with me.

prof nara ji (pnj) : Our difference is only in respect of your stand that a benign form of DN is an oxymoron........ Count me as hopelessly and naively optimistic, but I think an inclusive DN is possible and will add value to our society.

there's a small but very important misunderstanding here.

i never meant to say that there "cannot" be a benign form of dn ; all that i am saying is that the only harbingers of dn are the dmk / dk clan which makes me very less optimistic.

also, i have this thought whether a benign dravidian nationalism is a "need of the hour". remember sir, that india, as a free nation is still very young by international standards. given this fact, when we havent even mastered the art of "federated governance", it is very dangerous to give fillip to something which can quickly transgress into parochialism.

as i mentioned in one of my earlier notes, today, tamil nadu and maharashtra are the 2 states which are leading in the parochial tendencies.

especially at a time when every state is vying with each other to attract private investment and get a greater share of the central allocation, it is a fraud on the indian nation to harp on "ethnic nationalism".

what would happen, for instance, if there is a plan to only allocate central funds in proportion to the taxes collected by each state ?

why should a bihari or a oriyan or a up bania pay taxes to enable centre to allocate funds to tn ?

do we have less divisions now that we want to have one more ?

thankfully and mercifully dravidian nationalism is a non-starter. the dmk / dk have for long tried to project the entire south india as the dravidian belt in the fond hope that all the states would rally behind it to take on the centre. the other states (ap, kar, kerala) have proved to be way too smart than what these guys believed them to be.

the result : tn has a problem with every other southern state !

i am all for protecting the cultural richness of tn within the ambit of the cultural plurality that india represents.

pnj : I agree with your comments about OBC. I am sure you are familiar with Chandra Bhan Prasad who writes for Pioneer and other newspapers in India. He holds OBC responsible for the current state of Dalits, not Brahmins.

chandra bhan prasad isnt a popular man with the obc's i suppose.

pnj: But, Brahmins have a sordid past that they have not come to terms with yet. This is my raison d'etat here in this forum. The Brahmin community overwhelmingly reveres their orthodoxy who stand four-square behind the caste system and practice it with vigor. Untouchability is alive and well among the Brahmins in this setting, not just in villages.

sordid past, yes, but my point here is the relevancy of the same in the current milieu.

do we for instance spar with the british at every international forum considering the fact that they colonised us for 100 years ? are we pouring vitriol on the current generation of british nationals for what a general dyer did ?

while i dont want to disabuse you of your notions about brahmin orthodoxy, i sincerely feel that you couldnt be more wrong. even with my meagre income, i can challenge you to this wager.

tell me which has a higher probability ?

a brahmin - dalit marriage or a obc - dalit marriage ?

i dont know how you define "untouchability" in the context of brahmins because brahmins are mostly urbanised.

do you for instance see any "brahmin hotels" in any of the indian cities ? are the brahmins demanding seperate seats in trains or buses ? are the brahmins not recruiting / reporting to / working with colleagues of other castes ?

i dont deny the possibility of a very small percentage of brahmins being prejudiced. afterall all baskets have bad apples ; but i dont suppose that we can broadbrush the entire community as the guardians of untouchability.

my ultra-orthodox father has played host to several non brahmins who have visited our home. if he is any indication of orthodoxy, then i dare say that the percentage of brahmins who genuinely want untouchability would be less than 1%

those living in the concrete junges that make up the indian cities have no time to think, forget practicing casteism.


pnj: Also, you are way too sanguine about caste being not a factor in cities. It is partly true, caste is not in the open for all to know, as it is in the villages. But, it still fashions their daily life in myriad of ways. Moreover, as you travel further down south, there is a clear bifurcation between B and NB, irrespective of city or village.

i reiterate that caste isnt a factor. it has been substituted by a preference for "vegetarianism". i would request you to elaborate as to how caste is still "fashioning the lives" because if it did, we should have brahmin milkmen, brahmin security guards, brahmin newspaper vendor, brahmin laundrette. i dont see any of this in my city.

pnj: You are wrong about nobody caring about Manu. The name "Manu" is ready recognized and it evokes centuries worth of transmitted emotions. You are partly correct, nobody cares whether Manu is followed or not, but most people know that it is the Brahmins and their Dharmashashthras that promote caste based discrimination. So an act like repudiating Manu by the Brahmin orthodoxy will send shock waves across the social order.

this is interesting.

manu smriti, at best is a collection of work by many ; it suits the dk /dmk obscurantists to claim that it is the handiwork of brahmins or was compiled at the behest of the brahmins. i dont think either of is possible.

apart from manu smriti, the sanction for the 'chatur varna system' happens to be in the bhagavad gita, a discourse by lord krishna, himself an obc. why isnt it open for a brahmin to suggest that he is merely following the dictum of the "obc" lord ???

re : repudiating manu by brahmin orthodoxy, a right idea no doubt but it has the following problems.

a) one of the structural weaknesses (at times the strength !) of hinduism is the lack of a central unifying authority. in this backdrop, who would represent the brahmin orthodoxy ?

b) the repudiation, at best would be symbolic and could be dismissed off as tokenism. remember, the dravidian politicians are wanting to wreak vengeance for all the oppression - real and imaginary - caused by the brahmins. the symbolic act would have very little impact on minds which are baying for retribution

c) the dravidian goons have always viewed brahmins with suspicion even if they went against the very grain of brahmanism. bharathi never got his due nor has ramanujar. rajaji a staunch believer and brahmin to core entered into a marital alliance with gandhi. all these gentlemen are still loathed as "paarpaans" by the dk / dmk goons.

d) symbolism has very little impact or meaning sir. the fact that the indian legal tender has gandhi's photo hasnt exactly made india the most honest country in the world, has it ?


pnj: I totally disagree with your stand that Christian conversion and Islamization are greater threats for India. Treating them as such will only be counterproductive. In fact I think getting rid of just the hierarchical nature of caste, if that is even possible, will go a long way in keeping the proselytizers away.

they are not "greater" threats, they are infact the "greatest". i find it amusing that you equate christian conversion and islamization with the social inequalities of caste. the former is an existential threat while removing the latter is a must for social re-engineering to create an equitable society.

the vice grip of caste has long loosened. at least 30% of hindu marriages are inter-caste ; left alone, caste will become insignificant in a decade. vote bank politics is the real dampner to removal of the caste discrimination.

i frankly think nothing would keep the proselytizers away because they are way too shameless and thick-skinned.

pnj: Caste is a socio-religious construct. The Brahmin orthodoxy is widely believed as its protectors and defenders. In this context they can play a huge role in its dismantlement. Instead of contributing to unshackling the society from this chain, Brahmins embrace it with gusto.

"widely believed" is conjecturing ; it may be right. but my point is who is "protecting the caste system" TODAY ???


pnj: Yes hari, brahmins were land owners all over TN. If you go back even 50 to 60 years, from my personal experience I think a majority of brahmin families owned land. Even otherwise, all brahmin families benefited from the land that was worked by the lowest of low castes. All brahmin families benefited from the economic system in which the land owning families, Brahmins or OBC, extracted hard labor from the Dalits and passed on the largess to the landless brahmins.

a former boss of mine was interviewing a candidate, a brahmin. the candidate while introducing himself said that he belonged to a family of "lords". asked to explain, he clarified that they were originally "land lords" and the government took away all their "land" reducing them to a "family of lords".

brahmins holding land must be exception. i am happy to take your word for it but i still believe that brahmins did not exploit the dalits economically.

pnj: Irrespective how well intentioned it may be, Brahmin opposition to caste-based reservation system will only come across as self-serving. They should get their house in order first, open up all their institutions, veda patashalas, temples, schools, to one and all. Appoint a qualified NB as the head of some of the Mathams -- this must be possible at least among Sri vaishnavas as proficiency in Dhivya Prabhandham is considered equal in status to proficiency in Sanskrit Vedas. Once these are done, then opposition to caste-based reservation by brahmins will find some resonance.

i dont have any problems with all the measures listed by you above ; it is just that it shouldnt be reduced to mere tokenism. i would rather say that brahmins have, even if the last mile madams, vedic institutions etc have not been opened, have opened their homes to the nbs.

brahmins have struck at the very root of the social structure even if they may have not, in some cases, not opened up the religion. but in my view, we are in a natural progression towards creating a more inclusive hindu religion. only if the proselytizers let us ourselves.

a simple example : the most revered hindu shrine tirupati had introduced "dalit govindam" wherein the lord was taken on a procession to dalit dominated areas much to the delight of the residents.

pnj: We need to try to do what we can, even though there probably are a lot more that OBCs also will have to do.

surely brahmins should continue to do more, but in my view, there is no need to cower before the obscurantist obc goons.

 

[happyhindu]

manu smriti, at best is a collection of work by many ; it suits the dk /dmk obscurantists to claim that it is the handiwork of brahmins or was compiled at the behest of the brahmins. i dont think either of is possible.

apart from manu smriti, the sanction for the 'chatur varna system' happens to be in the bhagavad gita, a discourse by lord krishna, himself an obc. why isnt it open for a brahmin to suggest that he is merely following the dictum of the "obc" lord ???

Forgive me for chiping into this interesting conversation.

Am just wondering why wud the "obc" lord or any such lord produce scriptures putting brahmins on top of the varna pole (so god also gets tagged with the "obc" thingy - sad really).

And why wud any such lord ask shudras to eat remnants of dwijas, or write laws to treat chandalas or outcastes as sheer filth, with even their look being considered a 'blemish'.

And even worse, why wud anyone want others to follow the dharmashastras in this day and age.

And have not heard of the Manusmrithi being the handiwork of many (as yet). The last conversation i had on the MS was with a retired northindian lady - and she thought that when manu wrote his smrithi perhaps his wife had nagged him like hell and spoilt his mood - since like a typical MCP he puts women firmly down under a man's foot or man's control..

And then, there is this 'speculative' angle that the rulers in the IVC period were priests (like the famous Harappan statue of the Priest or King or both - which looks more like chinese than indian). The nexus always seemed to have been between the rulers and the priests, in most of the ancient civilizations. This angle wud also makes sense for Manu to put brahmins on the top (if he indeed were from the priestly community himself). It cud also bring out points on convergent but independent development of various vedic shakhas and subsequent texts - in terms of varying cultures being followed in diff parts of ancient india; before being mingled in part.

However, no one knows what happened in the past and even if they did, the last thing anyone cud do is to play the blame game. To me, it all abt the present - how things are here and now - and there is just one thing that figures out prominently now:

What makes some particular type of 'brahmins' so averse to allowing vedic education for so-called 'dalits', in this day and age.

And Shri Raju did not answer the last point on this post either: http://www.tamilbrahmins.com/genera...te-system-weakness-hinduism-62.html#post39928

I do not think there is any use talking abt politics and shifting the blame on politicians and proselytizers alone. i have come to understand that most of the temple entries in the recent past were engineered by the CPI-M not the DK/DMK who seem pretty keen on giving soaps and freebies in lieu for votes (so exploiters remain exploiters). Nor do i think there is any point blaming brahmins or any one community alone.

But sir, as much as things come across as veiled, indirect and discreet, from the conversations i have had on this forum in the past month, am apt to think that some brahmins in the present time too contribute to keeping caste-discrimination alive. And that includes quite a lot of them.

 

[nachi naga]

Ra Ra ah,the why?What i did yesterday is over.But i remember it either thru memory or someone elses memory thru oral transmission,books,siddhis...etc.I have only the present ,today,as a gift,from the compassionate god,who is in front of me,behind me,above me,besides me,centered within me,and yet i seek out in destinations,which even all the religious scriptures in the world have not located,what a fool am i,what a fool am i?or am i him?and him is i?The trinity of forces do the dance,alonwith them we dance,oh manava!

nachi naga.

 

[Nara]

.... today, tamil nadu and maharashtra are the 2 states which are leading in the parochial tendencies.

I am also glad that the DK/DMK inspired DN did not find any traction in TN.

I don't think TN politicians ever behaved like the Shiv Senaites Maharashtrai. No dravidian party has called for the North Indians to leave TN. Also, On the other hand, in Karnataka, there is Shiv Sena like opposition to Tamils. So, I wouldn't put TN with Maharashtra, may be Karnataka.

I agree with your general point, insularity is not a good thing. It is not a good thing if done from a regional POV, it is not good when done in a caste POV.

even with my meagre income, i can challenge you to this wager.
tell me which has a higher probability ?
a brahmin - dalit marriage or a obc - dalit marriage ?

Hari, even with my American academic income (which is also meager in comparison to other American NRIs) I would hesitate to take you on A lady of Brahmin birth married Dr. B.R. Ambedkar. But these instances show that in proportion more Brahmins are willing to shed not just their own caste identity, but the entire hierarchical caste system. This is not a triumph of Brahmins or Brahminsm, after all, by doing so they reject one of the central pillars of Brahminsim, namely, karma-reincarnation-caste. This is a victory for common decency and humanity. More of this should happen with more people from all castes, FC, BC, OBC, and all.

i dont deny the possibility of a very small percentage of brahmins being prejudiced.

Come on Hari, which planet are you living in? Most brahmins I have come across think of themselves as gift to humanity from the heavens. They think they are the smartest people in India. They think their culture is more refined. When Jamadagnya poured some of his filth there were many here openly congratulating him for saying things that perhaps they felt shy to admit in the open.

How many here are ready to condemn Manu dharmshasthras as a vile document? The best we can expect is a push back with, "nobody cares about Manu anymore" or some equivalent of that. But open and unequivocal condemnation will come only from a few.

What is different now from about 30/40 years ago is Brahmins no longer express these prejudices in the open. They have all sorts of social interaction, but only as individuals from different "tribes", in other words, coexistence without losing separateness. Even now, in the year 2009, this has not changed in Chennai. There is no time or appetite to practice open casteism in the cities. That is not an indication of absence of casteist feelings or absence of caste exclusive behavior in their lives. Caste based congregations, perhaps by self selection, do continue. Caste based solidarity continues, as evidenced by the objectives of this forum, charities that are promoted to serve only brahmins, and the caste-exclusive swayamvarams.

I have a feeling you live in a more cosmopolitan North Indian city, so your experience may be somewhat different. However, even in one of the most cosmopolitan of cities, Mumbai, I could sense this. But then, I only visited Chembur there, which I know is not representative of entire Mumbai, but is certainly representative of TBs in Mumbai.

I know lot has changed and still changing. I have high hopes with the 20 something youngsters of today. All my nephews and nieces in India have very progressive outlook and I believe they have the potential to blow this thing away like a bad dream.

...i would request you to elaborate as to how caste is still "fashioning the lives" because if it did, we should have brahmin milkmen, brahmin security guards, brahmin newspaper vendor, brahmin laundrette. i dont see any of this in my city.

I don't follow this. Perhaps my use of the phrase "fashioning the lives" is incorrect. What I am saying is caste feeling is ever present, it may not get expressed in the same way as in the past, but does play a big role in how brahmins interact with everyone else, as do others as well, but I am talking about brahmins here.

Just a few weeks ago I was reminded that in swayamvarams that have been conducted people do not even want to consider Iyengar/Iyer combination. I know of many Iyengars who would consider a Vadakali/Thenkalai combination inter-caste marriage. Go figure.

...repudiating manu by brahmin orthodoxy, a right idea no doubt but it has the following problems.
a) .... lack of a central unifying authority.....
b) .... .the dravidian politicians are wanting to wreak vengeance
c) ..... the dravidian goons have always viewed brahmins with suspicion.....
d) ..... symbolism has very little impact or meaning sir

You seem to harbor some visceral loathing for dravidian politicians. They deserve quite a bit of it, I am sure. But it is not about them. It is about (i) the common people, and (ii) the brahmins themselves. This symbolism will be lot different from Gandhi's picture in currency. That is why the later has already happened, and the former will happen when the figurative hell freezes over.

they are not "greater" threats, they are infact the "greatest". i find it amusing that you equate christian conversion and islamization with the social inequalities of caste. the former is an existential threat while removing the latter is a must for social re-engineering to create an equitable society.

According to the 2001 census, Christians are 2.3% with a 10 year growth rate of 22.6%, and for muslims 13.4% and 29.5%, and for hinuds 80.5% and 20.3%, respectively. This is hardly an existential threat.

But, that is not my point at all. Free exercise of religion is not only a hallmark of a liberal democratic nation, but it is enshrined as a fundamental right in the constitution. Therefore, if we want to stop these proselytizers without becoming a Saudi Arabia is to take away one of the strongest recruiting argument from their arsenal, namely, social inequality endemic to hindu religion. If this is done, not only would we create an equitable society, but as an added bonus, the conversions to escape social inequity will vanish. If conversions is such an existential threat as you say, it is even more urgent to do away with the caste system forthwith.

The rest of it we more or less agree. Only thing is, OBC goons from a village with nominal education and imbued with all sorts of superstitions, knows no better. He just follows his leader who exploits him just as much as he exploits the dalit. But, when we have highly educated, economically well off brahmins, with all the cultural advantages the best among the best can have, mouthing the benign nature of varna/caste system and the supreme qualities of brahminhood, it is a bit much.

Cheers Hari, hope to continue...

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
i have seen three groups of ppl never considered caste/creed/racism...
they mingle very easily...they are...
1, children of arasiyalvadgal...means the aristocracy of politicians...
2, cinema stars.......children of cinema stars.....
3,highly rich group....children of higher rich strata class ppl.

i think the caste/racism mainly affected to middle class/lower middle
class society....but i may be wrong...we have many examples...
in politicians/cinema stars/highly rich communities... i dont
want mention any partiular name/particular family....some time
the whole family included in these categories...my 2 cents..

regards
tbs

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
'The Dravidian movement did not have any effect on Brahmins'
An interview with social scientist P Radhakrishnan: Rediff.com News
Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?
Are Brahmins the Dalits of today?

courtesy www.keralaiyers.com

regards
tbs

 

[tbs]

hi folks,
Sanskrit Villages

Bajaj is trying to showcase the mileage of their Bikes. So they are coming with a series of ads that say how much India can be seen with 1 Litre of Petrol with their bikes.

Today's ad featured a Sanskrit speaking village where people "still communicate" in Sanskrit. They claim with 1 Ltr of petrol, people can go to this village from Mysore. The Ad shows villagers warning the biker, in Sanskrit, about a road-block ahead that the biker doesn't understand, and realizes after hitting the roadblock (a fallen tree).

I'm happy to see some mainstream coverage like this for our language. I hope it results in some interest and few more enthusiasts.

The village is Mattur (also spelt as Mathur, Matthur etc) on the banks of river Tunga in Shimoga District of Karnataka State. This has been written about in almost all newspapers from time to time. It seems there is another village, with same quality of affinity to
samskrutham in Rajgarh District of Madhya Pradesh, named Jhiri. More details can be had here:
http://sevadarshan.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=33

courtesy www.keralaiyers.com

regards
tbs