Sarma-61,
[Request - I request all posters to drop the Dear, Smt, Shri, Shrimati, Ji, while addressing me. Please address me as just happyhindu, happy, or hh. I too will be referring to you with just your username].
As already requested to Sangom previously, i request you to do away with references to scholarship, personal references to a poster and such stuff. There is no point in making such statements.
Nowhere have i said hinduism = brahmanism. Infact i feel hinduism can thrive very well without brahmanism and have said so earlier also.
I do not know what you mean veda teaching remained with brahmins only. Maybe some also believe they were created by brahma, instead of a natural delivery from parents of various tribal origins in the tribal times to the present day.
Staal refers to Frits Staal.
If you go thru old posts you can find discussions on all the points you have raised in your post. So i feel repeating such topics is not necessary, unless you bring out something new.
I suppose the context of our posts presently is about Jainism and Buddhism.
Have started reading up jaina and buddhist literature only of late. And do not know much. So far i understand both jainism and buddhism are essentially against brahmanism or the brahmanical religion of offering sacrifices. If you think Jainism and Buddhism are pro-brahmanism, i wud be glad to hear your basis for the same.
Regards.
hh,
hinduism is what started with the vedas, flowed through various subsequent stages (some of which are evident, others are not known to us)
and has ended with vedanta and its few branches. This is my understanding of hinduism. Brahmins played a very important role in most of the
developments, imo, as can be seen from the purushaukta in the last book of the rigveda making it clear that there were four castes, these castes
were created by divine plan, etc. Subsequently, the sutras (srauta, grihya) cemented the rules for different castes and their duties. Teaching of
veda was to be done only by brahmins, (and that is why I say veda teaching remained with brahmins only) though veda learning was permitted
for brahmins, kshatriyas and vaisyas.
brahmanism as I have written elsewhere, is the sum total of the way of life of brahmins. Since there are many different kinds or groups of
brahmins, there are different types of brahminism. But brahminism is not hinduism; it (hinduism or hindu religion) is much much wider. Nevertheless, hinduism could not have survived so long without brahmins.
I cannot just go through all the old posts here. So, sorry, unless you answer the points afresh for me, I will treat the matters as closed.
I have given two references to web pages which give the prominent brahmins in buddhism and jainism. You seem to have neglected to see
those but want to read up jaina and buddhist literature and thus touch the nose circling the head! That is your choice.
You say "brahmanical religion of offering sacrifices"; I feel that religion was/is hinudism, in essence and not brahmanism. Brahmins were
priests who were experienced in performing those yagas (just as the "aiyaru" or vaadhyaar today is experienced in performing some homams,
havans and other things, including the various prescribed "samskaaraas" for the three castes (brahmin, kshtriya and vaisya). I am also told by
learned people that anyone including a sudra could have sacrifices (yagas) performed on his behalf by the brahmins. Again, not all brahmins
could go and venture to do some yaagam. Only those with the prescribed qualifications for the different kinds of sacrificial priests like hotru,
adhvaryu, udgaatru, brahman and the assistants for these, could officiate in those categories. The vast majority of brahmins were not so
qualified and they had to live out of the daanams given by royal kings and nobles, etc. Then there were sattras, extending even up to a year;
these provided meals, place to stay and year-long pravachanams on religious topics by eminent personalities generically called "sootha" in
Mahabharata. Such sattras also benefitted the run-of-the mill brahmin. buddhism and jainism were against animal sacrifice in yaagams but in
view of what I have explained above, their opposition was only to the animals being killed, not to the other aspects of yaagams, nor to
brahmins and brahminism.
Since you have not possibly looked at the web pages I gave, (so it appears from your post under reply) may I give the list of famous
personalities of brahmin origin in buddhism and jainism, for information of readers in general who may not like to start reading jaina and
buddhist literature for the purpose?
Jainism
* The first convert of Mahavira, the 24th Tirthankara of Jainism was Indrabhuti (aka Gautamswami) the Brahmin, who headed a group of
other Brahmins and converted them to Jainism. He was from the village Gobbar (also called Govarya) near Rajgriha. It is said that at the sight of
Gautama, the tapsas who were competing with him to reach the top of a hill once, by seeing the winner Gautama at the top, achieved moksha.
[34]
* Sajjambhava was another born from Rajgriha and was elected the head of the Jain temple. He is famous for his composition of the
"Dasavaikalika Sutra."
* Acharya Vidyanand is a Brahmin of the Dhigambar Jain sect and compiled in the Sanskrit language, "Ashta Shahastri" with eight thousand
verses.
* Acharya Shushil Kumar, known better to Jains as "Guruji", was born a Vaidik in the Shakarpur village of the Haryana province. At the age
of 15, he took Diksha (became a sanyassin) into the Sthanakvasi, a Swhetambara sub-sect.
* There is also a story about a wealthy Brahmin named Dhangiri in the town of Tumbhivan, who, when heard the sermons of the Jain
Acharya Sinhgiri, while he regularly listened to but later lost his interest in wealth and decided to take the Diksha.
* Umasvati was a composer who was so loved by Jains that he is considered by the Dhigambar sect to be a Dhigambar member and the
Svetambara sect to be a Svetambara member.
* Akalanka of the 8th century is saod to the poineer in rthe field of Jain logic.[35]
Buddhist Brahmins
Brahmin Buddhists were disciples of the Buddha and mentioned in the Dhammapada where he dedicated an entire chapter to them called
"Brahmana-Vagga"[1]. However what differentiated them from Hindu Brahmins was the fact that they were also experts in Buddha Dharma
and had to subscribe to the highest moral code as described by the Buddha. Therefore the emphasis was not merely placed on lineage by birth
but also expertise in Buddha-Dharma and being exemplary in conduct. In verse 422 of the Dhammapada, The Buddha stated "He who is noble,
heroic, a great sage, passionless, pure and enlightened -- him I call a (Buddhist) Brahman".
Noted Brahmin Buddhists
Most of the best known Buddhist visionaries throughout history were Brahmin Buddhists. They include the Buddha's successor Vasubandhu
and his key disciples Sariputra[2] and Mahakasyapa, the founders of Mahayana Buddhism -- Nagarjuna[3] and Asvaghosa[4], the great reformer
of Theravada Buddhism -- Buddhaghosa, the founder of Vajrayana Buddhism Padmasambhava who is also the founder of Tibetan Buddhism;
Shantideva -- the author of 'the Way of the Bodhisattva'; the founder of Zen Buddhism and Kung Fu Bodhidharma and Kumarajiva both of
whom brought Buddhism to China and beyond; the great debater of Milinda Panha Nagasena the mentor of Ashoka himself Manjushri and the
one who brought him to Buddhism - Radhaswamy; and the great scholars of Nalanda like Aryadeva and Shantarakshita -- one of the acclaimed
Kashmiri Pandits who regularly taught the best of both Buddhist and Hindu doctrine together.
Brahmins feature extensively in Buddhist canonical texts i.e. the Tripitaka, and are found among the chief disciples of the Buddha. The
Brahmana Varga (section on Brahmins) contained in the Dhammapada lists down the Buddha's views on Brahmins[5]
Peter Masefield writes, "The canonical texts show the early Buddhists seeking their sustenance mostly from brahmin families, and the
dhamma-cakkhu (the insight into the Four Truths) that led to liberation was given almost exclusively to men of brahmin descent."[6]
Scholar Asim Chatterjee goes further to write, "No one can deny that the Brahmin pupils of Gautama had save the Sangha in its hour of peril.
The rebellion of Devadatta was foiled by Sariputta, and after the demise of the teacher, Mahakassapa, by convening the first council, at
Rajagrha, practically rescued the entire Buddhist Sangha from sinking into oblivion."[7]
"The canonical texts show the early Buddhists seeking their sustenance mostly from brahmin families, and the dhamma-cakkhu (the insight
into the Four Truths) that led to liberation was given almost exclusively to men of brahmin descent."[6]
"Also brahmans appear to have been taken up; but they were the distinguished representatives of a cultured laity - a secular strata of nobles
who formed the majority of Buddha's disciples."[8]
Also a Buddhist layman Jayadeva of Bihar was imprisoned when a Buddhist learning centre Odantapuri was attacked, and so had advised a
group of Buddhist monks in Nalanda of the Islamist attack threat to Nalanda and helped them flee for safety.[9]
[edit] List of Great Brahmin Bhikshus
* Amoghavajra[10], born in Central Asia to a father of North India and a mother of Samarkhand
* Asvaghosa (wrote the 'Buddhacharita' and is considered along with Nagarjuna to have founded the Mahayana). His philosophy was favored
in the court of King Kanishka.
* Atapa
* Bakula[11]
* Bhitka (Buddha's fifth successor)
* Chandragomin[12] from Bengal
* Cuda Panthaka[13]
* Dharmaruchi[14], from Tamil Nadu, spread the dharma in China
* Dharmottara[15] from Kashmir
* Dhitika from Ujjayini, converted King Minara of Tukhara (modern-day Kashgar) and his son Imhasa, the Brahmin Siddha of Kamarupa, the
Brahmin Adarpa of Malava[16]
* Dignaga
* Gautama Dharmaprajna[17], from Varanasi, went to China to preach the dharma and was appointed governor of Yan-sen district[18]
* Gopaka[13]
* Guhyashila[19]
* Harita[20] (wrote the "Harita Dharmasutra")
* Humkara[21]
* Jnanadharma[22]
* Jnanasrimitra[23], wrote the Vajrayana-dvau-antau-vikasana
* Kacanna[24]
* Kamashila (Kashmiri Pandit)
* Kalika[13]
* Kumarajiva (was imprisoned in China for spreading Buddhism)
* Kanaka (Yamantaka Tantra)
* Kukuraja[25]
* Manjushri (The mentor of Asoka)[26]
* Majnushrimitra[27]
* Nagasena[28]
* Narpola [Naropa](student of Tipola/tilopa]
* Padma (woman)
* Palden Dekyong[29]
* Pingala-Koccha (preached to the Buddha the Cūlasāropama Sutta, after which he became a dedicated student of the Buddha)
* Radhasvami (another mentor of Asoka)[26]
* Ratnavajra[30] from Kashmir
* Sahara/saraha (master of Tipola/Tilopa)
* Sariputra
* Shankarananda, wrote several scriptural commentaries[31]
* Shantideva
* Shantarakshita (Kashmiri Pandit)
* Sharmakirti[32]
* Subha
* Subhadra
* Tipola [Tilopa](Mahasiddha, from Chatigava in modern-day Bangladesh)[33]
* Vajrabodhi[34]
* Vakkali
* Vanavasi[13]
* Vinitaruchi[35], from South India who went to China to spread the dharma
[edit] List of Other Contributing Brahmin Bhikshus
* Bhadrapalita[36], converted by Dignaga, was the tresry minister to an Oriya king, and founded sixteen viharas
* Jaya, built a Buddhist temple at Varanasi[37]
* Kalyana, build Buddhist teple Gandhola of Vajrasana with the Mahabodhi on it[38]
* Sujaya, built a Buddhist temle in Venuvana within Rajagrha[39]
[edit] List of Brahmin Bodhisattvas
* Aryadeva (successor of Nagarjuna)
* Asangha (from Hinayana sect and Peshwar city founded the Yogacarya and established the Classical age of Buddhism)
* Nagasena (the famous teacher of the milindapanha)
* Brahmadatta
* Nagarjuna (founded the Shunyata concept and considered along with Asvaghosa to have founded the Mahayana)
* Vasubandhu (Brother of Asanga and one of founders of the yogacara school - only historical Buddhist to be called the 'second Buddha')
* Dignaga (5th century Buddhist logician from Kanchipuram)
* Dharmakirti (7th century Buddhist logician from Andhra)
* Buddhaghosa (5th century Pali scholar who led the revival of the Theravaada)
* Kusanda Buddha
* Konagamana Buddha
* Kasyapsa Buddha
* Kshitagarbha
* Padmasambhava (founder of Vajrayana Buddhism)
Some at least of the above long lists would have been brahmins by birth, I feel.
Fritz Staal does not seem to be a historian but more interested in yagas, yajnas and things like those. Is it possible to provide the context in which hesays the vedas changed hands?
