Brahminism - swami vivekananda's view

[sangom]

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Folks,

The following is excerpted from a post in usbrahmins@yahoogroups; I am using it here because Swami Vivekananda seems to have entertained views very similar to the "brahmin bashers" here!


THE FUTURE OF INDIA
Volume 3, Lectures from Colombo to Almora

The Brahminhood is the ideal of humanity in India, as wonderfully put forward by Shankaracharya at the beginning of his commentary on the Gitâ, where he speaks about the reason for Krishna's coming as a preacher for the preservation of Brahminhood, of Brahminness.

It is the duty of the Brahmin, therefore, to work for the salvation of the rest of mankind in India. If he does that, and so long as he does that, he is a Brahmin, but he is no Brahmin when he goes about making money. You on the other hand should give help only to the real Brahmin who deserves it; that leads to heaven. But sometimes a gift to another person who does not deserve it leads to the other place, says our scripture.

You must be on your guard about that. He only is the Brahmin who has no secular employment. Secular employment is not for the Brahmin but for the other castes. To the Brahmins I appeal, that they must work hard to raise the Indian people by teaching them what they know, by giving out the culture that they have accumulated for centuries. It is clearly the duty of the Brahmins of India to remember what real Brahminhood is. As Manu says, all these privileges and honours are given to the Brahmin, because "with him is the treasury of virtue".

But it is one thing to gain an advantage, and another thing to preserve it for evil use. Whenever power is used for evil, it becomes diabolical; it must be used for good only. So this accumulated culture of ages of which the Brahmin has been the trustee, he must now give to the people at large, and it was because he did not give it to the people that the Mohammedan invasion was possible.

It was because he did not open this treasury to the people from the beginning, that for a thousand years we have been trodden under the heels of every one who chose to come to India. It was through that we have become degraded, and the first task must be to break open the cells that hide the wonderful treasures which our common ancestors accumulated; bring them out and give them to everybody and the Brahmin must be the first to do it. There is an old superstition in Bengal that if the cobra that bites, sucks out his own poison from the patient, the man must survive. Well then, the Brahmin must suck out his own poison.

 

[Nara]

The following is excerpted from a post in usbrahmins@yahoogroups; I am using it here because Swami Vivekananda seems to have entertained views very similar to the "brahmin bashers" here!


THE FUTURE OF INDIA
Volume 3, Lectures from Colombo to Almora
[.....]
There is an old superstition in Bengal that if the cobra that bites, sucks out his own poison from the patient, the man must survive. Well then, the Brahmin must suck out his own poison.

Dear Sangom sir, somehow I missed this post. Of course, if SV expresses views like this here with an anonymous monicker he would be called all the worst names in the world.

BTW, what SV is saying is far worse than what I have been saying. I am critical of Brahminism and those who practice it, B or NB. But SV is saying Brahmins injected their poison into the age-old "Hindusim" that was entrusted to them. This is a far worse indictment of Brahmins themselves, not the ideology. I wonder what the response would be to this by our theist friends who love to call us brabas and brahmin haters.

Interestingly, today I saw a reference to SV from a different thread, and it goes like this:

"I think Adi Sankara, Vivekananda and Sivananda are erudite people who knew their religion far better than the Western scholars and that is the reason why I have quoted their views here."

​

It is often claimed that the so called anti-Brahmin sentiment is unique to only Tamil Nadu because of the Dravidian movement, and that there is no such "hatred" in the north. This quotation from SV, who is one of their own, seems to belie their claim.

Anyway, when we are called brabas and Brahmin haters, we can rest assured that they are putting us in the same class as SV.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

dear sangom,

to supplement your post...


In 1898, Swami Vivekananda began initiating non-Brahmins with the sacred thread ceremony and the Gayatri Mantra. He based this on the interpretations of the Vedas and Bhagavad Gita that Brahmin status is earned and not hereditary.[42] The Arya Samaj notably spread the teaching that recitation of the mantra was not limited to males, but that women could rightfully be taught both the Vedas and the Gayatri Mantra.[43][44] In his writings, S. Radhakrishnan encouraged the teaching of Gayatri mantra to men and women of all castes.[45]

i was pleasantly surprised about Dr, R's views on gayatri, for till now i always perceived Dr R as a traditionalsit.

 

[biswa]

I think Swami Vivekananda was a rationalist and a social reformer but not a Brahmin hater. After all his guru Sri Ramakrishna was a Brahmin (who of course relished in interacting with NBs to demonstrate his disregard for caste).

Bengal society at the time was notoriously caste-ridden, as can be read from the novels of Saratchandra (he who wrote Devdas).

 

[கால பைரவன்]

This is a standard technique, the one I have seen in many other forums. The brabas, when their hate-mongering is exposed, often compare themselves to Bharathiyar or Vivekananda or the Azwars! One can't help but chuckle at this fervent appealing to "higher" authority in the fond hopes of muddying the waters. The irony here is the brabas do not even realize how much their own opinion differs from that of Vivekanandar in this case. Yet they make him a party to their hatred! Vivekananda's point is brahmin by worth. These very same people have said many times that such a thing is not practical and that such a thing never existed! So the main point discussed here is not even agreeable to them. Yet they quote Vivekanandar! Why? Because he makes a comparison. He compares the brahmins who abandon their dharma to poison. Therefore they could not resist the urge to quote it here. How can such an opportunity be missed? I am glad this was posted because it only exposes them further.

The self-praise, of course, is the icing on the cake.

 

[kunjuppu]

This is a standard technique, the one I have seen in many other forums. The brabas, when their hate-mongering is exposed, often compare themselves to Bharathiyar or Vivekananda or the Azwars! One can't help but chuckle at this fervent appealing to "higher" authority in the fond hopes of muddying the waters. The irony here is the brabas do not even realize how much their own opinion differs from that of Vivekanandar in this case. Yet they make him a party to their hatred! Vivekananda's point is brahmin by worth. These very same people have said many times that such a thing is not practical and that such a thing never existed! So the main point discussed here is not even agreeable to them. Yet they quote Vivekanandar! Why? Because he makes a comparison. He compares the brahmins who abandon their dharma to poison. Therefore they could not resist the urge to quote it here. How can such an opportunity be missed? I am glad this was posted because it only exposes them further.

The self-praise, of course, is the icing on the cake.

bhairavan,

what a hilarious post, though you might not have meant that way

i simply love this quote, 'He compares the brahmins who abandon their dharma to poison'. absolutely right i think, re what SV meant here.

but SV was a man of the real world. do you think, SV believed there are 100% brahmins these days. do you think, in the mid 1800s, there were brahmins in bengal still wedded to poverty and vedas? please remember SV was a bengali, and was probably most familiar with the bengali society of that time.

the bengal of mid 1800s was an effervescent society, the local homegrown industry like muslin mfg devastated by british suppression, to pave way for manufactured cloth from manchester, the increasing british bureaucracy, the first generation of bengali babus attracted by the thought of lifetime secure employment.

one might remember here, that bengali brahmins took to english study a couple of generations before tambrams, who started their babudom history only since 1920s or a bit later. even dr S.Radhakrishnan and tambrams of his generation, went to Calcutta to get exposure.

so, i agree with kalabhairavan, that SV was giving his opinion of wayward brahmins, who by late 1800s, were probably the bulk of bengali brahmin society, soon to be followed by tambrams.

the unfortunate fact is, mammon attracts. much as we tend to eulogize and deify it, poverty in real life sucks. no one wants to live, with when and where his next meal is going to come from, no one wants to mortgage his wife's jewels to put food on the table. in that context, the prospect of a lilfelong steady government job with pension, which the british offered, was heaven sent manna.

only one condition though: learn english, which brahmins of bengal and tamil nadu, took to, like fish to water, and the rest is history. there are other brahmins of india who did not follow this route - telengana and gujarat brahmins, for example. these still are among the poorest members of their community, and incidentally, no object of hatred or jealousy within their respective societies. ie reddys and patels

so dear bhairavan, i think, it is only fair, that we look at SV's observations through bengali tinted glasses carved in those times, and not through the tinted contact lense of early 21st century. that would be like comparing oranges with pala fruits

 

[sangom]

bhairavan,

what a hilarious post, though you might not have meant that way

i simply love this quote, 'He compares the brahmins who abandon their dharma to poison'. absolutely right i think, re what SV meant here.

but SV was a man of the real world. do you think, SV believed there are 100% brahmins these days. do you think, in the mid 1800s, there were brahmins in bengal still wedded to poverty and vedas? please remember SV was a bengali, and was probably most familiar with the bengali society of that time.

the bengal of mid 1800s was an effervescent society, the local homegrown industry like muslin mfg devastated by british suppression, to pave way for manufactured cloth from manchester, the increasing british bureaucracy, the first generation of bengali babus attracted by the thought of lifetime secure employment.

one might remember here, that bengali brahmins took to english study a couple of generations before tambrams, who started their babudom history only since 1920s or a bit later. even dr S.Radhakrishnan and tambrams of his generation, went to Calcutta to get exposure.

so, i agree with kalabhairavan, that SV was giving his opinion of wayward brahmins, who by late 1800s, were probably the bulk of bengali brahmin society, soon to be followed by tambrams.

the unfortunate fact is, mammon attracts. much as we tend to eulogize and deify it, poverty in real life sucks. no one wants to live, with when and where his next meal is going to come from, no one wants to mortgage his wife's jewels to put food on the table. in that context, the prospect of a lilfelong steady government job with pension, which the british offered, was heaven sent manna.

only one condition though: learn english, which brahmins of bengal and tamil nadu, took to, like fish to water, and the rest is history. there are other brahmins of india who did not follow this route - telengana and gujarat brahmins, for example. these still are among the poorest members of their community, and incidentally, no object of hatred or jealousy within their respective societies. ie reddys and patels

so dear bhairavan, i think, it is only fair, that we look at SV's observations through bengali tinted glasses carved in those times, and not through the tinted contact lense of early 21st century. that would be like comparing oranges with pala fruits

SV calls any one in secular employment as non-brahmin. And that is the most important observation of his. I will imagine all our tabra friends who hold SV in high esteem, will come forward and shed their brahmin claims now. And as essentially NBs, they should start viewing the tabra beliefs, customs, cultures, and value systems through a 21st. century contact lenses or glasses.

 

[subbudu1]

Dear Sangom sir, somehow I missed this post. Of course, if SV expresses views like this here with an anonymous monicker he would be called all the worst names in the world.

BTW, what SV is saying is far worse than what I have been saying. I am critical of Brahminism and those who practice it, B or NB. But SV is saying Brahmins injected their poison into the age-old "Hindusim" that was entrusted to them. This is a far worse indictment of Brahmins themselves, not the ideology. I wonder what the response would be to this by our theist friends who love to call us brabas and brahmin haters.

Interestingly, today I saw a reference to SV from a different thread, and it goes like this:

"I think Adi Sankara, Vivekananda and Sivananda are erudite people who knew their religion far better than the Western scholars and that is the reason why I have quoted their views here."

​

It is often claimed that the so called anti-Brahmin sentiment is unique to only Tamil Nadu because of the Dravidian movement, and that there is no such "hatred" in the north. This quotation from SV, who is one of their own, seems to belie their claim.

Anyway, when we are called brabas and Brahmin haters, we can rest assured that they are putting us in the same class as SV.

Cheers!

Anti-brahmin sentiment is prevalent even today in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar where caste divisions are very prominent. Somehow where there are caste divisions , there are people who hold brahminism in negative light.

In Bengal , where SV came from, there was an anti-brahmin perspective in the colonial times. But the Ramakrishna movement seemed to have diffused this. In places out there, brahmins have come out of their caste inhibitions in many ways. Inter-caste marriage is not frowned as much as in other places. The brahmins have thrown their restrictions and have today no inhibitions in eating together with the rest of the society. This kind of social integration has achieved two things
- Anti-brahminism is not so very much heard these days
- Christianity is unable to gain significantly in Bengal

People can draw their own conclusions!

 

[biswa]

Caste attitudes in Bengal

Anti-brahmin sentiment is prevalent even today in Uttar Pradesh and Bihar where caste divisions are very prominent. Somehow where there are caste divisions , there are people who hold brahminism in negative light.

In Bengal , where SV came from, there was an anti-brahmin perspective in the colonial times. But the Ramakrishna movement seemed to have diffused this. In places out there, brahmins have come out of their caste inhibitions in many ways. Inter-caste marriage is not frowned as much as in other places. The brahmins have thrown their restrictions and have today no inhibitions in eating together with the rest of the society. This kind of social integration has achieved two things
- Anti-brahminism is not so very much heard these days
- Christianity is unable to gain significantly in Bengal

People can draw their own conclusions!

Just wanted to expand on your comment a bit. In the 1800s and perhaps the early 1900s there was rampant casteism in Bengal. I don't think Brahmins were hated, but caste distinction was common. Interestingly one of the big themes of Saratchandra was inter-caste relations. Devdas in the story happened to be a Brahmin who fell for Paro and Chandramukhi who were non-Brahmin. The writer Saratchandra (a Brahmin himself) liked to expose the fallacies of casteism. So did Rabindranath Tagore in whose writings caste didn't appear at all.

I think the downfall of caste in Bengal started with Ram Mohan Roy and the Brahmo Samaj and culminated with the freedom struggle in which both Bs and NBs participated. BTW both Bs and NBs were babus of the British as well. In Calcutta proper, everything became secular. Both Bs & NBs played football, went to colleges, made friends. Religion diminished in importance and caste was relegated to the background.

 

[biswa]

BTW, the current ad I am seeing on the page says: "Jesus Christ is Lord!" Maybe we should just go with that.

 

[sangom]

Just wanted to expand on your comment a bit. In the 1800s and perhaps the early 1900s there was rampant casteism in Bengal. I don't think Brahmins were hated, but caste distinction was common. Interestingly one of the big themes of Saratchandra was inter-caste relations. Devdas in the story happened to be a Brahmin who fell for Paro and Chandramukhi who were non-Brahmin. The writer Saratchandra (a Brahmin himself) liked to expose the fallacies of casteism. So did Rabindranath Tagore in whose writings caste didn't appear at all.

I think the downfall of caste in Bengal started with Ram Mohan Roy and the Brahmo Samaj and culminated with the freedom struggle in which both Bs and NBs participated. BTW both Bs and NBs were babus of the British as well. In Calcutta proper, everything became secular. Both Bs & NBs played football, went to colleges, made friends. Religion diminished in importance and caste was relegated to the background.

Bengali Bs eating fish might have been one important factor in bringing the Bs and NBs together. What are your views?

 

[biswa]

Bengali Bs eating fish might have been one important factor in bringing the Bs and NBs together. What are your views?

Interesting point, haven't thought of that. The Brahmins of Bengal are inevitably Shakta (or worshipper of Shakti). Hence all the Kali temples and Durga Puja etc. Animal sacrifice is considered an integral part of Shakti puja (at least in Bengal).

Interestingly the Vaishnav movement (Chaitanya of Nabadwip) was initiated by NBs. Anyways, I wouldn't say that there is no caste awareness at all. However the top 3 castes (traditionally) are considered at par and seem to inter-marry freely nowadays. There still seem to be reservations marrying SC/ST though.

 

[suraju06]

Hi folks,

Now that the so called brabas have found a new soulmate in Swami Vivekananda and even consider themselves his walking mirror images, we can expect that the Phallus/Yoni/copulation/Shivlinga discussion will be brought to an end accepting Swami Vivekananda's interpretation of the Shivlinga. Or are they digging further into SV's writings to find out some passage where he has contradicted what he said about the stupidity of calling the Shivling as phallus?