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Are we getting extinct? What is the contribution of movies towards that?

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Nice verse. Even in Gita, bhagavan says, 'brahmana gavi suni pandithaha sama darshinaha' - 'learned ones look at a brahmana, cow, dog etc as all being same parabrahman only'. This is an area where we all find a lot of confusion. On one hand we say varna, non-mixing etc and on the other hand the same scriptures say it is all same parabrahman and we should have a sama-drishti. Paramacharya has dwelt this subject at length. I dont think we can cover it here in detail, being a big subject. But, the point of view here is, the world is diverse and the people in the universe have different make-up and attitude. Not all are same. So, there is a need to structure the society in a system that would help all to lead a better life and grow to be able to see parabrahman in everything. While varna difference can be there in performing duties, the attitude should be definitely one of love and saintly. Even when varna system was prevalent, we find the love, care and bonding between communities to be very strong. I would take the example of saiva saints - appar, sundarar, sambandar and manivachagar. There were from 4 different varnas, but had a great respect for each other and worked together for saiva propagation. Sambandar did not think he was supreme over appar or viceversa. But, that doesnt mean they mixed through marriages.


To a certain extent I have to agree with you that even though Varna system was in vogue before but Dharma was still practised.

Best example is the Mahabharat where Sathyavathi's father a fisherman by profession lays his terms and conditions to King Shantanu that its her son that must ascend the throne.

No where we see Shantanu getting mad with Sathyavathi's father on the grounds that since he is a fisherman how dare he dictate terms to a King but King Shantanu was just concerned about Bhisma in his heart.

May be superiority complex is a recent phenomenon.
 
Dear Kalyan,

Defending Dharma and to fight? Isnt that the duty of a Kshatriya?

Good question... If the fight is at physical level, yes, it is a kshatriya's duty. If the fight is at intellectual level, it is a brahmana's duty. I have pramana for this :-) If you consider most of the vishnu's avataras to fight for dharma rakshana by killing asuras, they are kshatriya-like avataras (i am using the word 'like' here, because of matsya, koorma etc). But, we also consider Sri Shankara etc as avataras which were to fight for dharma from an intellectual and learning dimension. Sri Shankara fought 6 vaideeka mathaas and 6 avaideeka mathaas, but not as a kshatriya.
 
To a certain extent I have to agree with you that even though Varna system was in vogue before but Dharma was still practised.

Best example is the Mahabharat where Sathyavathi's father a fisherman by profession lays his terms and conditions to King Shantanu that its her son that must ascend the throne.

No where we see Shantanu getting mad with Sathyavathi's father on the grounds that since he is a fisherman how dare he dictate terms to a King but King Shantanu was just concerned about Bhisma in his heart.

May be superiority complex is a recent phenomenon.

Brahmana was to feed oneself through 'yachaka' (seeking alms) in those days. Even the villages and land most of the tamil brahmins had in villages were all given as dhaanam by kings over last few hundred years due to the sufferings the kings saw they undergo. So, there is no question of superiority complex in those days atleast for brahmanas. Even the nandanar charithram written by sri gopalakrishna bharathi is disputed by scholars as there is no mention of such a behaviour from the brahmana in the original periya puranam. If we see the lives of saint thyagaraja, muthuswami dikshithar, appayya dikshithar, gnaana sambandar etc, it is all very noble, spiritual life with a lot of care for others around. They all didnt even care of wealth which were offered by kings to them. That is the way the tamil brahmins lived a life in those days and were respected & even worshipped by one and all. We cant belittle that. There is no proof to show brahmins were arrogant in days of yore. Most of stories we hear about brahmin arrogance are from the last 100 years or so, and in many cases were convoluted stories presented by the dravidian movement folks who were motivated by british through justice party etc. Even the revolutionaries who brought up the untouchables to mainfold were mostly brahmins - bharathiyar, sathyamurthi, rajaji etc.
 
Dear Kalyan,

I was just thinking of the Varna Sanskar cases in Mahabharat and their behavioral pattern...I feel its hard to judge who will turn out to be what purely based on Varna..Ok here goes..


Dhritarasthra...is actually son of Veda Vyasa..hence a Brahmin by genetics.. from paternal side Brahmin/Kshatriya and from maternal side Kshatriya.
Brahmin/Kshatriya Sanskar.

So technically the Kauravas are genetic Brahmins and Kshatriya Sanskar

Vidura... also son of Veda Vyasa and Sudra Varna mother

So Vidura is Brahmin/Kshatriya and Sudra Sanskar.


Pandavas were sons of Devas(Devas have no caste cos they are celestials and above caste) and Kshatriya from their maternal genes.


Vidura turned out to be the wisest and Arjuna got the Geeta.

What say you???
 
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Shri Kalyankumar,

I am not a regular "poster" here. I am also a conservative "Brahmana" trying to adhere to the old ways of life - as far as possible. And I think the main reason is that the lure of an IT job, big salary, foreign tour/settling down, etc., are beyond my ability. With this introduction, I start.

Yes, as you say in the OP, we brahmanas are getting extinct. But even now there are sufficient number of brahmana families which believe in marrying only within their caste and the boys and girls from such families do not "jump the fence" (this is my English translation of a common Malayalam usage, "vEli cADuka", meaning go out of the fence by jumping over it; this signifies the recourse to illegal and unpermitted sex by women, mainly but I think in the present context it can be used for both boys and girls.). So, the complete extinction of the Tamil Brahmin community will take a longer time than what may be seen from the enthusiastic support usually found in this forum for inter-caste, inter-religious, etc. marriages.

According to me the large number of marriages between brahmin girls and NB boys, is happening because the girls are nowadays mostly earning a high salary and they want to "prove" to their parents that they are modern girls, no longer like the girls of old who were always obedient to their parents, elders and so on. Perhaps they also want the thrill of living with a NB and leading a "no holds barred" life style, including their private life; with a brahmin boy as husband, these girls know what type of life they will have, observing their mother, elder sisters and sisters-in-law (who will have hundred and one complaints about their husbands, usually), etc.

But this trend cannot be reversed, I strongly feel. May be the extinction of true Brahmanan is God's plan for Kaliyuga.

These days, as you say, think on their own because of their high salary besides building an
emotional relationship on the basis of their own thinking without caring or giving cognition to their
friends or relatives.

Coming to the Temple Priests, the vocation of Temple Priests is not welcomed by their own
family members in some area, mainly because a few Brahmin Girls do not welcome that profession.
This move, perhaps, drives the age old Priests to have a second thought and advise their
children to switch over to some other professions (as they do not get girls from within their
fold). If we go back to our precious documents, we find that we should accept a vocation
which our Dharma Sastrass assign to us. Brahmin Priests are highly orthodox, scholarly,
trained in the field over many years, an authority to do all services to the God; in fact they
were respected as a Liaison Officer between the God and the general Public. My relatives
used to mention that those days in Kerala, girls preferred cohabitation with Namboothiri,
as it would pave a way for an intelligent children. If the above trend prevails, we may
find extinction of Brahmin Priests too.

Above all that, it is just because we belong to Forward Class Community, a fear or an
apprehension started cropping up in the minds of our people and we are put to problems
and sufferings owing to non-availability of reservations, as is done in other cases, the
job market is occupied by others and we are denied our entitlements. This slowly leads
to economic weakness. Over and above that, we find some Brahmin boys do not show
resistance or retaliation (owing to non-availability of support from their brethren people)
to get over the crisis if something comes upon, with the result they give up very easily.
If we are to proceed along like this in the years to come, our community boys getting jobs
in Government Sector or in prominent Corporate Sector Offices (due to reservation element)
will slowly bring a picture of dismal prospects. I do not want to term it as the future looks
wind-swept.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
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Originally Posted by sarma-61

May be the extinction of true Brahmanan is God's plan for Kaliyuga.


Why would Dharma Samsthapanarthaya cause this? Dont see the co relation?
Shouldnt a true Brahmana be in the Paritranaya Sadhunam category?
 
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Why would Dharma Samsthapanarthaya cause this? Dont see the co relation?
Shouldnt a true Brahmana be in the Paritranaya Sadhunam category?

trANa also means, I understand from learned people, to protect, to preserve, to safeguard, etc. So, may be KrishNa meant that 'sAdhus' will be saved and preserved in swargalOkam for being born as real brahmanas in some other yuga, and the 'dushkrita' pseudo-brahmins will be made to meet their 'vinASam' as a result of this 'varNasamkaram' in due course of this kaliyugam.

You see, after all, we cannot say what exactly Lord Krishna had in mind when he said so, we are only interpreting according to our limited and coloured intellects.
 
Dear Shri kalyankumar, you have covered a lot of topics with alacrity. I am a little dazed to tell you the truth. I would like to ask you a few question and I would be much obliged if you would humor me with your answers.

.... we should have a sama-drishti. Paramacharya has dwelt this subject at length.
Since you bring up Paramacharya I would like to ask you whether you agree with his views on Dharmashasthras. The acharya states that these Smritis like Manu, Gautama, etc., are not independent thoughts of some individuals, but what they represent is:

"present us in an orderly fashion what is already contained in the Vedas. The Vedic word cannot and must not be changed at any time and on any account. The same applies to the rules and laws laid down in the Smrtis."



For more please visit this link.

So, my question to you is, would you be happy to see these laws expounded in these Smrtis become the laws of the land? I know this is purely a theoretical question, however, since this is an intellectual exchange you wouldn't mind answering this question.

Next, (emphasis mine)

.... Atleast in the history of human civilization that we today know of, the brahmana community has always existed.

.... There is no proof to show brahmins were arrogant in days of yore. Most of stories we hear about brahmin arrogance are from the last 100 years or so,.

Talking about proof, do you have any proof for your statement "brahmana community has always existed"?

... I for one is convinced that it will be a loss for not just the community or our country but to the humanity (provided of course, assuming the brahmana were to be a 'true brahmana').
This question about who a "true baramana" is keeps coming up all the time. Would you please define who a "true brahmana" is?

Thank you, your response will be much appreciated....

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Shri kalyankumar, you have covered a lot of topics with alacrity. I am a little dazed to tell you the truth. I would like to ask you a few question and I would be much obliged if you would humor me with your answers.


Since you bring up Paramacharya I would like to ask you whether you agree with his views on Dharmashasthras. The acharya states that these Smritis like Manu, Gautama, etc., are not independent thoughts of some individuals, but what they represent is:

"present us in an orderly fashion what is already contained in the Vedas. The Vedic word cannot and must not be changed at any time and on any account. The same applies to the rules and laws laid down in the Smrtis."



For more please visit this link.

So, my question to you is, would you be happy to see these laws expounded in these Smrtis become the laws of the land? I know this is purely a theoretical question, however, since this is an intellectual exchange you wouldn't mind answering this question.

Next, (emphasis mine)





Talking about proof, do you have any proof for your statement "brahmana community has always existed"?

This question about who a "true baramana" is keeps coming up all the time. Would you please define who a "true brahmana" is?

Thank you, your response will be much appreciated....

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

I think I will pick the question I want to answer. On the proof of brahmana existence in history, the oldest literature available in the world today is the vedic, and those vedic literatures (both sruthi and smrithi) talk about brahmana as a varna at multiple places. I take this as a proof of brahmanas existence from time immemorial in this country (which is most likely the oldest civilization in the world). Definition of true brahmana is there in paramacharya's works - in the first 3 volumes of 'deivaththin kural'.
 
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Dear Kalyan,

I was just thinking of the Varna Sanskar cases in Mahabharat and their behavioral pattern...I feel its hard to judge who will turn out to be what purely based on Varna..Ok here goes..


Dhritarasthra...is actually son of Veda Vyasa..hence a Brahmin by genetics.. from paternal side Brahmin/Kshatriya and from maternal side Kshatriya.
Brahmin/Kshatriya Sanskar.

So technically the Kauravas are genetic Brahmins and Kshatriya Sanskar

Vidura... also son of Veda Vyasa and Sudra Varna mother

So Vidura is Brahmin/Kshatriya and Sudra Sanskar.


Pandavas were sons of Devas(Devas have no caste cos they are celestials and above caste) and Kshatriya from their maternal genes.


Vidura turned out to be the wisest and Arjuna got the Geeta.

What say you???

Difficult to comment on this, as it will be a casual response which is not the right thing to do. We need to seek answers from some learned person on these so that we understand why Vyasa created characters with a mixed varna parentage. May be to show to world how the traits of such mixed parentage exhibits in offsprings? I have heard interpretations like pancha pandavas are like five senses and krishna is like the atma etc. I am not sure if these kind of interpretations are far-fetched. Anyway, I shall try and seek some explanation to your questions from the pundits I know and come back.
 
Difficult to comment on this, as it will be a casual response which is not the right thing to do. We need to seek answers from some learned person on these so that we understand why Vyasa created characters with a mixed varna parentage. May be to show to world how the traits of such mixed parentage exhibits in offsprings? I have heard interpretations like pancha pandavas are like five senses and krishna is like the atma etc. I am not sure if these kind of interpretations are far-fetched. Anyway, I shall try and seek some explanation to your questions from the pundits I know and come back.

I have read before that Pancha Pandavas represent the Pancha Pranas and Draupadi is the uniting Kundalini Shakthi.

Lord Krishna is always denoted as Paramaatma.
 
Dear kalyankumar, Greetings!

I think I will pick the question I want to answer.
I do understand your predicament in answering the Darmashastra question -- if you answer in the affirmative you will be seen as a religious bigot, if you answer in the negative you will contradict paramacharya.


On the proof of brahmana existence in history, the oldest literature available in the world today is the vedic, and those vedic literatures (both sruthi and smrithi) talk about brahmana as a varna at multiple places.
These are tall claims. Except for the verse in Purusha suktam, which many argue is an interpolation, there is no sruthi support for Varna. The dharmashastra smrtis are of much latter origin, perhaps about 1000 CE.

BTW, do you think the Vedic civilization is older than Indus Valley and Egyptian civilizations?

Definition of true brahmana is there in paramacharya's works - in the first 3 volumes of 'deivaththin kural'.
Can you not summarize, give some essential points without which one cannot be considered a "true" Brahmana?

Also, you started this thread with a lament about icm. Would you say those brahmanas who go for icm and those who support such marriages, cannot be "true" brahmanas?

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Sri.Kalyan Kumar, Greetings.

On the proof of brahmana existence in history, the oldest literature available in the world today is the vedic, and those vedic literatures (both sruthi and smrithi) talk about brahmana as a varna at multiple places. I take this as a proof of brahmanas existence from time immemorial in this country (which is most likely the oldest civilization in the world).

The oldest civilisation on earth for the time being is the civilisation od Australian Aboriginals. Their cave paintings date about 40,000 years. They are one of the very nice tribes we can find today.

Bradshaw Paintings / Gwion Gwion Gallery

How old is Australian Rock Art? - Aboriginal Art Online

Aboriginal music.... Australian Aboriginal Music: Song with Didgeridoo - YouTube

Start of Vedic period was like last month if this culture was started a decade ago.

Cheers!
 
Sri.Kalyan Kumar, Greetings.



The oldest civilisation on earth for the time being is the civilisation od Australian Aboriginals. Their cave paintings date about 40,000 years. They are one of the very nice tribes we can find today.

Bradshaw Paintings / Gwion Gwion Gallery

How old is Australian Rock Art? - Aboriginal Art Online

Aboriginal music.... Australian Aboriginal Music: Song with Didgeridoo - YouTube

Start of Vedic period was like last month if this culture was started a decade ago.

Cheers!

There are hundreds of variants on which was the oldest civilization in the world and it is all non-conclusive. Read this for the truth on aryan invasion theory - Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory. Ancientness of vedic civilization is primarily tried to be negated through the aryan invasion theory which was a british motivation to supress the reality that was india.
 
Dear kalyankumar, Greetings!


I do understand your predicament in answering the Darmashastra question -- if you answer in the affirmative you will be seen as a religious bigot, if you answer in the negative you will contradict paramacharya.



These are tall claims. Except for the verse in Purusha suktam, which many argue is an interpolation, there is no sruthi support for Varna. The dharmashastra smrtis are of much latter origin, perhaps about 1000 CE.

BTW, do you think the Vedic civilization is older than Indus Valley and Egyptian civilizations?

Can you not summarize, give some essential points without which one cannot be considered a "true" Brahmana?

Also, you started this thread with a lament about icm. Would you say those brahmanas who go for icm and those who support such marriages, cannot be "true" brahmanas?

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

When we talk of vedic aspects, let us be sincere in presenting facts, not just casually. I just did a quick index search on verses in sruti (rig veda alone) which started with brahmana. Here are few - 7.103.7 :: braahmanaaso athiraathre na some saro na poornamabhitho vadanthaha. 6.75.10 :: braahmanaasaha pitharaha somya. 1.15.5 - braahmanaad indraha raaghasaha. 7.103.8 - Bhraahmanaa saha sominaha vacha. 10.90.12 - Braahmanosya mukhamaaseeth. Like I said these are verses which start with braahmana and from a quick reading, is only talking about brahmana varna. We all know who are these 'many' who argue of intrapolation - Max Muller driven communist & church intelligentia - well, if you choose to take their theories as 'veda vaakku', your choice. This way, any inconvenient verse can be taken as intrapolation and the very praamanyam of vedas can be contested.
 
Sri.Kalyan Kumar, Greetings.



The oldest civilisation on earth for the time being is the civilisation od Australian Aboriginals. Their cave paintings date about 40,000 years. They are one of the very nice tribes we can find today.

Bradshaw Paintings / Gwion Gwion Gallery

How old is Australian Rock Art? - Aboriginal Art Online

Aboriginal music.... Australian Aboriginal Music: Song with Didgeridoo - YouTube

Start of Vedic period was like last month if this culture was started a decade ago.

Cheers!

Dear Raghy,


Ok agreed its 40,000 years ago..what Yuga does that fall under I wonder?

Lord Krishna was born some 3227BC as far I can remember and that was Dwapara Yuga..but I am sure other Yugas existed well before the 40,000 years isnt it? Vedic Civilization was already in Vogue in Sathya Yuga.

So how can we be really be sure this is the oldest civilization?

Forgot to add this point:

40,000 years ago what was the world map and the positions of the continents?
where was this area located? any idea?Is there a map to show?
Becos what looked like present day australia might have been very differently located before.
Previously many continents used to be conjoined and then broke away on their own with shift of the tectonic plates.
 
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Dear kalyankumar, Greetings!


I do understand your predicament in answering the Darmashastra question -- if you answer in the affirmative you will be seen as a religious bigot, if you answer in the negative you will contradict paramacharya.



These are tall claims. Except for the verse in Purusha suktam, which many argue is an interpolation, there is no sruthi support for Varna. The dharmashastra smrtis are of much latter origin, perhaps about 1000 CE.

BTW, do you think the Vedic civilization is older than Indus Valley and Egyptian civilizations?

Can you not summarize, give some essential points without which one cannot be considered a "true" Brahmana?

Also, you started this thread with a lament about icm. Would you say those brahmanas who go for icm and those who support such marriages, cannot be "true" brahmanas?

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx

I just read this on the net (we know that samhita, brahmana & aranyaka are all part of sruthi, hence this story is from sruti and not smrithi) which shows reference to brahmins in sruti (debunks your argument that brahmin reference is only in purusha suktha) --

Wendy O'Flaherty has translated some stories from the Jaiminiya Brahmana, illustrating how they dealt with the fears of death, God, the father, wives, and demonic women; many of these stories are sexually explicit, indicating that these people were not afraid of discussing their sexuality. However, since the usual way of handling these fears was to use a sacrificial ritual, the solutions probably had only limited social and psychological value.

The most famous of these stories, and the best in my opinion, is the tale of Bhrigu's journey in the other world. Bhrigu was the son of Varuna and devoted to learning, and he thought that he was better than the other Brahmins and even better than the gods and his own father. So Varuna decided to teach him something by stopping his life breaths, causing Bhrigu to enter the world beyond, where he saw someone cut another man to pieces and eat him, a second man eating another who was screaming, a third eating a man who was silently screaming, another world where two women were guarding a treasure, a fifth where a stream of blood was guarded by a naked black man with a club and a stream of butter provided all the desires of golden men in golden bowls, and a sixth world where flowed five rivers of blue and white lotuses and flowing honey with wonderful music, celestial nymphs dancing and singing, and a fragrant odor.

When Bhrigu returned, his father Varuna explained to him that the first man represented people who in ignorance destroy trees, which in turn eat them; the second are those who cook animals that cry out and in the other world are eaten by them in return; the third are those who ignorantly cook rice and barley, which scream silently and also eat them in return; the two women are Faith and non-Faith; the river of blood represents those who squeeze the blood out of a Brahmin, and the naked black man guarding is Anger; but the true sacrificers are the golden men, who get the river of butter and the paradise of the five rivers.
 
Dear Raghy,


Ok agreed its 40,000 years ago..what Yuga does that fall under I wonder?

Lord Krishna was born some 3227BC as far I can remember and that was Dwapara Yuga..but I am sure other Yugas existed well before the 40,000 years isnt it? Vedic Civilization was already in Vogue in Sathya Yuga.

So how can we be really be sure this is the oldest civilization?

Forgot to add this point:

40,000 years ago what was the world map and the positions of the continents?
where was this area located? any idea?Is there a map to show?
Becos what looked like present day australia might have been very differently located before.
Previously many continents used to be conjoined and then broke away on their own with shift of the tectonic plates.

It just brings up a very pertinant thought in my mind. We are all tuned to think in a certain way, when it comes to oldest civilizations. The immediate picture that comes in mind about 'oldest civilization' is 'aboriginal' 'cave man' 'undressed/uncombed/stone-aged type of race' - so, we can only think of australian aboriginals and african tribes as oldest. I think this is a direct influence of 'theory of evolution' / 'big bang theory', (which itself is only a 'theory') that assumes that man has to have evolved, having come after a 'creation' which came out from literally 'nothing'.

I think we also need to consider a possibility that there could have been cultured civilizations being in existence along side tribal civilizations in remote places even in the long past, like they are there now. How can we dismiss the possibility that civilization could have existed in indian plains while tribes in australia and africa could have been hunting around? In fact, it is said that before 3000 years there was a flourishing civilization in indian plains when europe was nomadic and hunting animals. Every small king in the world outside india wanted to invade india for its treasures till as late as 1300AD. There are a number of works that talk about australian aborigines language being very similar to dravidian languages (especially tamil).

Vedic view of creation is 'cyclic' - 4 yugas coming in cycle, interrupted by pralaya & srusthti - western view is big bang. Given everything in world being cyclic, with nothing really destroyed but only changing form, the possibility of entire creation itself being cyclic has more credibility. Also, big bang theory leaves out so many questions unanswered, including why the big bang, who instigates it, etc.. Also, creation has so much of intelligence built into it. The human body has been created with such a complexity that it is impossible to assume that no 'intelligence' is involved in its creation. Look at the mechanics behind the functioning of eyes, ears, heart etc. The retina, lens, nerves taking signals to brain, etc it is just amazing. Also, there is a synchronous creation in the outside world for these organs to have an experience. eg for the eyes to see, light has been provided, colours have been provided, reflection mechanism has been provided... It is brilliance of creation - how can some random 'big bang' event make this creation?

Also look at space and time... Do we know where space starts and space ends? Similarly we dont know when time starts and when it ends... The questions themselves look paradoxical - if I use the word 'where', I am already presuming spaciality, if I use the word 'when' I am already presuming the scale of 'time'. Naturally, both are to be taken as absolutes (eternal & infinity) - Einstein refutes this through relativity theory (which even vedanta takes only as a dependent reality on parabrahman).

But the point is, within creation, things are cyclical and eternal/infinity. So too, the creation has to be taken as absolute, but running as a cycle, which is the brilliant vedic view. So, the talk of aboriginals and caves as start of human civilization is loaded with fallacious assumptions that can be debunked.
 
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I do understand your predicament in answering the Darmashastra question -- if you answer in the affirmative you will be seen as a religious bigot, if you answer in the negative you will contradict paramacharya.

I am not afraid to be seen as a religious bigot, as I take pride in my vedic religion and its views. But, I think I am not qualified enough to be able to comment on some of the smrithi's views. We all know there are some statements attributed to manu smrithi which can be interpreted in different ways and I have not studied the same even minimally to be able to clarify or interpret them right. So, I dont even qualify to contradict paramacharya on the subject. All said and done, it is my choice to answer any question. Every 'leading' question need not be answered, especially if I feel they wont help in the context of the discussion.
 
Dear kalyankumar, Greetings!

I am not afraid to be seen as a religious bigot, as I take pride in my vedic religion and its views.
Thanks for clarifying, your fond comments about "mottai paatti" and the desire for the return of this "cultural" practice, albeit voluntarily -- thanks a million for the tender mercies -- already hinted at this.


But, I think I am not qualified enough to be able to comment on some of the smrithi's views....... I have not studied the same even minimally to be able to clarify or interpret them right. So, I dont even qualify to contradict paramacharya on the subject
You say you are proud of your vedic religion. From the text I quoted from Kamakoti.org it is clear that Paramacharya teaches his followers that Dharmashastras are Vedic truths that cannot be altered by anybody, including himself. Given your reverence for Paramacharya, why are you hesitant to eagerly embrace what Paramacharya himself says?

You write about Paramacharya in such glowing terms but when I cite his exact words taken from Kamakoti.org, you demur and all you can manage is "I dont even qualify to contradict paramacharya on the subject."

Your hesitation citing lack of knowledge flies in the face of the many expansive comments you have been making about a variety of matters like history of human civilization, biology of human evolution, genetics of veg/nonveg, big-bang theory, etc. In the very unlikely event you are a well recognized polymath, I think it is not unreasonable to assume you are not well read in all these disparate subject matters, yet that did not prevent you from making definitive comments, some bordering on mocking established scientific facts.

Don't get me wrong, I welcome you to record your views on these and any other subject with or without being well read or qualified. I am only trying to point out the inconsistency, somehow you are suddenly coy and using this excuse to avoid answering just those questions that you find difficult to answer.

.... Every 'leading' question need not be answered, especially if I feel they wont help in the context of the discussion.
See, this is what I am talking about. You are here presenting your views quite eloquently and vocally, something I appreciate. But when I come asking some "leading" questions, a perfectly legitimate devise to bring out internal contradictions -- is this not something the Vedic rishis themselves practiced, asking "leading" questions -- you wish to skip them. That is not in keeping with the spirit of the forum, not to mention the fact it reveals a lack of sustainability of these views you express.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear Raghy,


Ok agreed its 40,000 years ago..what Yuga does that fall under I wonder?

Lord Krishna was born some 3227BC as far I can remember and that was Dwapara Yuga..but I am sure other Yugas existed well before the 40,000 years isnt it? Vedic Civilization was already in Vogue in Sathya Yuga.

So how can we be really be sure this is the oldest civilization?

Forgot to add this point:

40,000 years ago what was the world map and the positions of the continents?
where was this area located? any idea?Is there a map to show?
Becos what looked like present day australia might have been very differently located before.
Previously many continents used to be conjoined and then broke away on their own with shift of the tectonic plates.

Sowbagyavathy Renuka, Greetings.

I wrote .
The oldest civilisation on earth for the time being is the civilisation od Australian Aboriginals.
meaning, with the available evidences, Australian Aboriginal culture can be deduced as the oldest civilasations still intact today. That's what I meant. This is my POV unless and until we come across evidence for any other culture older than 40,000 years. I am not sure Australian Aboriginal culture is the oldest culture; I don't even claim anything like that. All I said was "for the time being".

Where was Australia 40,000 years ago? This link may provide some answers or lead to more answers. http://www.parks.tas.gov.au/file.aspx?id=6555 That department can be contacted for more information.

Is there any tangible evidence for the existence of Vedic civilisations before 40,000 years? Yuga calculations do not provide tangible archialogical evidences though.

An important question... does the vedic civilisation exist today? As far as I know, it doesn't.

Cheers!
 
There are hundreds of variants on which was the oldest civilization in the world and it is all non-conclusive. Read this for the truth on aryan invasion theory - Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory. Ancientness of vedic civilization is primarily tried to be negated through the aryan invasion theory which was a british motivation to supress the reality that was india.

Sri.Kalyan Kumar, Greetings.

You seem to engage in an argument for the sake of argument.

I am posting a link to show the age of one civilisation, still intact in Australia for the last 40,000 years. In reply, you are producing this link.. Death of the Aryan Invasion Theory ... I don't know whether you read that article or not. This is what Stephen Knapp says in that article.....
The unfortunate thing is that many of the most ancient records, in which we may very well have been able to find more exact information about this sort of early history, were destroyed by the revolutionary fanatics at places like Alexandria, Pusa, Takshashila, and others in Central Asia, and Central and South America. They did so while declaring that such knowledge and records were unnecessary if they contained what was already in their own religious books, but should be destroyed if they contained anything different. This is why the mythologies of Egypt, Babylonia, the Jews, the Old Testament, and the holy Koran contain only brief accounts of the pre-historical facts beyond 2500 years ago, unlike those histories that hold much greater detail as found in the ancient Vedic and Puranic literature. In any case, we can begin to see that the Vedic Aryans had been living in the region of India since the last deluge, from about 13,000 to 10,000 B.C. Thus, there could not have been any pre-Aryan civilization in this area that had been conquered by so-called Ainvading Aryans@ in 1500 B.C.

By that, Stephen Knapp puts Vedic civilisation as far back as 13,000 B.C only. Does it make it older than 40,000 years or earlier than 40,000 years? You do the maths, please.

You claimed Vedic Civilisation 'always existed' and produced that Stephen Knapp link. Vedic Civilisation does not exist today. It is history.

Cheers!
 
...By that, Stephen Knapp puts Vedic civilisation as far back as 13,000 B.C only.
Raghy, Stephen Knap is not an objective source, he has an agenda to promote. If we are persuaded by scientific evidence, something the religiously motivated have a hard time with, Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) predates the Vedic age. The begining of the end of IVC started by 1900 BCE and was exctinct by 1300 BCE. So, the Vedic period cannot be older than roughly 3500 to 4000 years.

Staunch Hindus of course will reject all this as western propaganda!!!

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
Dear brother Nara Ji,

I can understand dating from physical artifacts found in the Indus valley.

But everyone agrees that the vedas were not written down much much later in the vedic period, because of the oral tradition and other factors such as guarding them closely.

In this context, how can one definitely date the vedic period? Does not make sense to me!

Regards,
KRS
 
...But everyone agrees that the vedas were not written down much much later in the vedic period, because of the oral tradition and other factors such as guarding them closely.
Dear brother, the point here is whether the Vedic civilization is the oldest as Shri kalyankumar claims. To my knowledge Vedas were written down only about 800 to 900 years ago, probably, I welcome correction. But, I am not arguing Vedas are only 900 years old based on that.

The point I am arguing is, it is not older than Indus Valley Civilization, and that puts Vedic period no older than 4000 years. This of course is if one accepts the validity of rational scientific inquiry, western or eastern. However, if one is moved by puranas, Yuga calendar, and other such religious dogma, then I have to beat a retreat.

Cheers!

Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
 
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