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Are we getting extinct? What is the contribution of movies towards that?

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It is a fact that a number of brahmin boys are not finding girls these days. We hear of brahmin girls marrying other caste, other religions and even other nationals. There was a case of a brahmin girl last week marrying an american boy. A number of my known girls have married mudaliyars, SC christians, mallu christians and all that. This is becoming a menace. This will leave brahmin community completely crippled. I think there should be a mass movement to educate and resist brahmin girls and even boys marrying intercaste. Rather than scolding each other, let us look at constructive ways to achieve this.

I saw the movie ‘MounaGuru’ yesterday. The hero’s brother’s wife is subtly shown as a brahmin lady and so is the herione (her sister), with hero being some other caste guy. There was no necessity to show a brahmin character per the movie storyline at all. Then there was this Raghava lawrence movie few months back which too showed a brahmin wife and made mockery of. The movies like Sethu and Samy just painted brahmin boys in extremely bad taste and the non-brahmin characters as the brave and worthy ones. The trend of marrying non-brahmins were triggered and sustained by these brainwashing movies which paint brahmin boys are eunuch. Not sure what the brahmana sangam and other organizations are doing other than protesting these. People should wake up to this reality and protest such depictions. Devar community protested the naming of a movie as ‘deiva thirumagan’ and renamed it to ‘deiva thirumagal’ just because the name was a title for muthuramalinga devar. Our brahmin community is so numb that we dont even protest such harsh depictions of our own self. We are sitting ducks for all other communities who just have the knack of eloping our girls away. Many such girls are even dumped after 2 to 3 years. I have seen a number of cases where the brahmin girls have been dumped with a kid after 1 year. Yet our idiotic, dreaming, fantasy oriented girls fall for romantic deceptions. The brahmin community has to come together, even the ones who are already married and settled, as our children’s future is bleak if the trend continues for another 5-10 years.
 
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kalyankumar

Member
I often wonder if there is a word of mouth brainwashing happening amongst young girls of brahmin community that there is such a pattern of marrying outside brahmin community. Somehow, religion, wealth, language, nationality, nothing else seem to matter to these girls except that the person should not be a brahmin boy. Why this kolaveri? It is very fishy to say the least. What has created such an illfeeling for brahmin boys, not every one of them is a coward or conservative or bad mannered... Nor are the others so broadminded that brahmins need to be hated. In fact most of the broadminded initiatives have come from brahmins in tamil nadu - whether it is bharathiar, or U.Ve.Saminatha iyer or Kamalahasan or Mani rathinam or sathyamoorthy or k.balachandar or ramesh krishnan, it has been brahmins who have spearheaded the changes and revolutions in the entire society. So, why? I think there is a complete non-thinking and brainwashing that is behind all this. It is time all of us wake up and clean this up.
 

sangom

Well-known member
Shri kalyankumar,

Much of what you say may be true. Brahmin girls are marrying non-brahmin, non-hindu, non-Indian boys of their choice and this is showing an increasing trend. But I feel the remedy does not lie in protesting, blaming or lamenting but to carefully study the psychology which makes brahmin girls attracted to NBs, NHs, NIs, etc., if such a study is at all possible (I don't know) and, secondly, to bring up our brahmin boys on the lines of the other non-brahmin boys. We as parents may not know much about this nor may we have the time to study, tutor our sons, etc. But easily, we can allow our boys to mingle freely with the NB boys, make friendship with them, allow such friends to come freely to our son and so on.

I have reason to believe that many tabra parents are weary of their sons going the wrong way, imbibing bad habits கெட்ட பழக்கம் from the NB guys and so on. Some houses do not allow even brahmin friends to go to the house because these friends' houses are not strict enough in following aacaarams, are below status and money, etc. But at the same time, girls are nowadays getting more freedom. This may be the root cause.

Personally, of course, I will not bother about "are we getting extent" sort of syndrome; if my son is unable to get a tabra girl, I will allow him to marry from any other caste, a vegetarian girl. And the children so born will be brahmins enough for me.

PS: vegetarian because we - self and wife - cannot now adjust to NV food; but my son and dil are free to eat nv outside home - hotels, etc. - and even inside home, after we pass away.
 

nannilam_balasubramanian

Well-known member
If you closely watch in an office, other castes girl try to follow our rituals and
in fact they are keen to know and learn certain things. Only our brahmin girls
are getting spoilt because of movies, serials, and other activities that take place
nowadays. We have certain social bondage and the culture is entirely different.
Couple will not be able to settle down as they sometime religiously follow each other's
culture. Children born out of inter-caste marriage will have plenty of problems later,
may not be initially. Food habits will again differ and children will find it difficult
as months and years go about. Above all the parents face torture and the couple
will have difficulty to face the society. How much liberal parents may be, ultimately
it is their children will be in problems in the coming years. NB boys try to pull our
girls at work places, but are girls should be careful and get teased by the tactics
they handle.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
bala,

i know several girls, who have married out of caste, are very happy. it is wishful thinking that they will suffer, due to diet differences, children unable to find spouses etc. i think these are bogeys raised to discourage the girls from seeking ic spouses.

in a love marriage, both the couple have invested a lot on their relationship, many a times, in the face of opposition. in fact there is greater determination to 'make it through'. there is broad based adjustments, and the rate of marriage failure, is no more or no less than 'arranged' marriages. except in many arranged marriages, the couples for fear of ostracism, still live together, when the feelings of marriage have long disappeared.

i think overall, it is not correct to think of any plots to attract our girls. let us give our girls some credits. they are not babes in the woods. they are grown up, educated, and if they feel that a NB husband is better than a brahmin boy, all the more glory to them. all it means, is that our boys lack the necessary features to attract a girl - one example, insisting that mummy and daddy will live with the couple since day one.

in the same manner, why not our boys go after NB girls. it is good for our religion, national integration, and bringing fresh blood to the brahmin fold. girls can be familiarized with our customs - not many of our own household practise many of the customs anyway.
 

nannilam_balasubramanian

Well-known member
Are we getting extinct

Whatever you say, we have recently noticed a family having lot of problems
owing to ic marriage. The NB boy lived with the Brah Girl only for sometime
and after getting an issue, he started slowly avoiding her and left her
absolutely at the instance of his parents. He has now married a girl from his own
caste and that too his sister's daughter based on compulsion of his parents.
The poor girl who believed him has lost everything in life. This is one incident.
Another incident, because of ic marriage, a girl child born to them is finding
difficult to get wedded as the parents are unable to find a suitable boy to their
liking. This is only a submission.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 
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kalyankumar

Member
Are we getting extinct

The issue is also not about specific micro families are living happily. The old saying is 'marriage is a thousand year seed'. When two individuals come together, they are sowing seed for progeny which will carry the civilization for next generations. Also, the families are coming together beyond the two individuals. The culture, customs and habits are carried forward across ages. The brahminism as a culture has been there since time immemorial. We are now at crossroads. In fact, out of all the 'castes' that exist today, it is only the brahminism which needs 'protection', because it cannot be revived once mixed up. Atleast, if we need to go by the true definitions of what the caste-by-birth rules state. The genetic mix-up of non-vegetarianism and other habits lead to one not eligible for vedic learnings or performing vedic rights. Performing vedic rights is for the benefit of the entire society, not just the individual family. So, socially it is important that this is preserved. Whether the individual in question is performing vedic rights or not, atleast his progeny's will be eligible for performing them.
Also, whether a brahmin boy can marry a non-brahmin easily these days is a debatable question. The other caste people are aggressively against giving away their girls outside their caste. Can a brahmin boy, who is vegetarian stand up to the physical threats of other castes is a question mark. It is not a brahmin boy's fault that they are not physically as tough as others, as the food habits have been genetically vegetarian for generations. This is anyway compensated by other mental skills that they posses. This means, many brahmin boys these days are deprived of a married life, which is an alarming and pathetic state of affair, which even human being has to empathize with, whether he or she is a brahmin or not. The brahmin girls and their parents are to be blamed for this state of affairs, as well as the ones who corner them and elope with the girls. Should we not address this issue at all? Let us look at things objectively and help preserve what is one of the richest cultural group of our civilization. It is not worth preserving stone monuments and books of the yore, if we cannot preserve a 'live' culture which can help our entire society for generations to come. If we let this culture die today, it can never be built up again. To quote some examples of such extinct aspects.... i grew up seeing 'mottai paattiis' - they are very culturally rich, mature, affectionate elderly brahmin women of our civilization... They don't pretty much exist any more. Kudumi or shikai is almost extinct except for some temple priests. Dhoti or veshti or panchakatcham is becoming almost extinct. Same for madisaaru - which represents ardhanaariswara thathvam - this is now only found in movies, depicted in a derogatory fashion. If we let the trend continue, we will see poonools disappear except on the temple sculptures. Let us wake up and spread the importance of preserving these.
Life is afterall beyond the affection between just two individuals!!! (which is ofcourse also important anyway)
 
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kalyankumar

Member
Also, I strongly believe there is a pattern to the trend of ic marriage. There is a word of mouth being spread amongst girls that it is tough to be a daughter-in-law in brahmin families and brahmin boys are not-lovable. Whether this is spread by NBs or by brahmin girls themselves is not sure. Girls seem to be very strongly opinionated about this, which, if addressed, can solve this problem in a big way. I wanted to state this, as we seem to be groping in dark about solution to this problem. How do we address this is a question.... I think we can look at movies, tv serials or some other mode through media to address this. Just giving advices wont work. A strong, impactful movie is the best option.... If we have connects to some good movie producers, any of us can try that. Since we struggle for solution, we seem to resign to the fact that nothing can be done about it and start blaming our own society. This is similar to brahmin society reaction to shankaracharya arrest. First reactions was to immediately blame the sankaracharya himself, because of our 'kaiyalagaathanam'... Whether he is guilty or not is the question, how does the society react is the point to look at. A similar fate to a devar or koundar or muslim or christian leader would have been dealt with in a different fashion by those communities... We are losers these days. We just digest an insult, any invasion and any assault on our community without teeth and blame our own society so that we dont feel guilty. Think about it...
 

nannilam_balasubramanian

Well-known member
Also, I strongly believe there is a pattern to the trend of ic marriage. There is a word of mouth being spread amongst girls that it is tough to be a daughter-in-law in brahmin families and brahmin boys are not-lovable. Whether this is spread by NBs or by brahmin girls themselves is not sure. Girls seem to be very strongly opinionated about this, which, if addressed, can solve this problem in a big way. I wanted to state this, as we seem to be groping in dark about solution to this problem. How do we address this is a question.... I think we can look at movies, tv serials or some other mode through media to address this. Just giving advices wont work. A strong, impactful movie is the best option.... If we have connects to some good movie producers, any of us can try that. Since we struggle for solution, we seem to resign to the fact that nothing can be done about it and start blaming our own society. This is similar to brahmin society reaction to shankaracharya arrest. First reactions was to immediately blame the sankaracharya himself, because of our 'kaiyalagaathanam'... Whether he is guilty or not is the question, how does the society react is the point to look at. A similar fate to a devar or koundar or muslim or christian leader would have been dealt with in a different fashion by those communities... We are losers these days. We just digest an insult, any invasion and any assault on our community without teeth and blame our own society so that we dont feel guilty. Think about it...

It is a subject to be discussed at a higher level and a firm step needs to be taken
in the right direction.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 

nannilam_balasubramanian

Well-known member
The issue is also not about specific micro families are living happily. The old saying is 'marriage is a thousand year seed'. When two individuals come together, they are sowing seed for progeny which will carry the civilization for next generations. Also, the families are coming together beyond the two individuals. The culture, customs and habits are carried forward across ages. The brahminism as a culture has been there since time immemorial. We are now at crossroads. In fact, out of all the 'castes' that exist today, it is only the brahminism which needs 'protection', because it cannot be revived once mixed up. Atleast, if we need to go by the true definitions of what the caste-by-birth rules state. The genetic mix-up of non-vegetarianism and other habits lead to one not eligible for vedic learnings or performing vedic rights. Performing vedic rights is for the benefit of the entire society, not just the individual family. So, socially it is important that this is preserved. Whether the individual in question is performing vedic rights or not, atleast his progeny's will be eligible for performing them.
Also, whether a brahmin boy can marry a non-brahmin easily these days is a debatable question. The other caste people are aggressively against giving away their girls outside their caste. Can a brahmin boy, who is vegetarian stand up to the physical threats of other castes is a question mark. It is not a brahmin boy's fault that they are not physically as tough as others, as the food habits have been genetically vegetarian for generations. This is anyway compensated by other mental skills that they posses. This means, many brahmin boys these days are deprived of a married life, which is an alarming and pathetic state of affair, which even human being has to empathize with, whether he or she is a brahmin or not. The brahmin girls and their parents are to be blamed for this state of affairs, as well as the ones who corner them and elope with the girls. Should we not address this issue at all? Let us look at things objectively and help preserve what is one of the richest cultural group of our civilization. It is not worth preserving stone monuments and books of the yore, if we cannot preserve a 'live' culture which can help our entire society for generations to come. If we let this culture die today, it can never be built up again. To quote some examples of such extinct aspects.... i grew up seeing 'mottai paattiis' - they are very culturally rich, mature, affectionate elderly brahmin women of our civilization... They don't pretty much exist any more. Kudumi or shikai is almost extinct except for some temple priests. Dhoti or veshti or panchakatcham is becoming almost extinct. Same for madisaaru - which represents ardhanaariswara thathvam - this is now only found in movies, depicted in a derogatory fashion. If we let the trend continue, we will see poonools disappear except on the temple sculptures. Let us wake up and spread the importance of preserving these.
Life is afterall beyond the affection between just two individuals!!! (which is ofcourse also important anyway)

Hats off. You have very nicely brought out. A loud thinking is required at every level.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
To quote some examples of such extinct aspects.... i grew up seeing 'mottai paattiis' - they are very culturally rich, mature, affectionate elderly brahmin women of our civilization... They don't pretty much exist any more. Kudumi or shikai is almost extinct except for some temple priests. Dhoti or veshti or panchakatcham is becoming almost extinct. Same for madisaaru - which represents ardhanaariswara thathvam - this is now only found in movies, depicted in a derogatory fashion. If we let the trend continue, we will see poonools disappear except on the temple sculptures. Let us wake up and spread the importance of preserving these.
Life is afterall beyond the affection between just two individuals!!! (which is ofcourse also important anyway)

i think, from the gist of this post, it is best to take a few examples, and point out that these are best extinct.

let us talk of mottai pattis.. these are anything but ,very culturally rich, mature, affectionate elderly brahmin women of our civilization, - these were usually young women, who lost their husband when young, and forced to shave their hair, wear white, and condemned to live in the back of the house, always considered ill omen, deprived of their rights, had no say in just about anything, their properties usually confiscated by the brothers, and who lived at the mercy of relatives. what a life?

if this is the best that tambram 'civilization' can provide, it is best to extinct asap. i simply cannot believe that in this day and age, someone condones, the shaving of hair and abuse of women. will you do it to your own mother? sister? daughter? i do not call names often, but kalyankumar, this post of yours, takes the crown for being the height of ignorance and insensitivity.

kalyan, how many of the extinct practices you abide by - do you have kudumi? do you go with panchkaccham all the time?do the married womenfolk of your household wear madisar all the time?

i think, today's girls and their parents, are doing just fine. why dont you offer to marry a girl, and foot all the expenses. for a change. why do boys, still want the girls to spend the entire wedding expenses? and immediately after marriage, want to put their hand into the handsome salaries the girls earn.

i think the girls have finally woken up, and realized the raw deal they have been given by manu. and discarded the ugliness that has been fostered upon them.
 

ashwin_ash

New member
Pol Pot, Hitler, Molotov, and Genghis Khan were all vegetarians. I am Brahmin, vegetarian. So are most of you. Hope you all got my point by now.
 

Brahmanyan

Well-known member
Pol Pot, Hitler, Molotov, and Genghis Khan were all vegetarians. I am Brahmin, vegetarian. So are most of you. Hope you all got my point by now.



"It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean."
Matthew 15:11 (Holy Bible)
 
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kalyankumar

Member
i think, from the gist of this post, it is best to take a few examples, and point out that these are best extinct.

let us talk of mottai pattis.. these are anything but ,very culturally rich, mature, affectionate elderly brahmin women of our civilization, - these were usually young women, who lost their husband when young, and forced to shave their hair, wear white, and condemned to live in the back of the house, always considered ill omen, deprived of their rights, had no say in just about anything, their properties usually confiscated by the brothers, and who lived at the mercy of relatives. what a life?

if this is the best that tambram 'civilization' can provide, it is best to extinct asap. i simply cannot believe that in this day and age, someone condones, the shaving of hair and abuse of women. will you do it to your own mother? sister? daughter? i do not call names often, but kalyankumar, this post of yours, takes the crown for being the height of ignorance and insensitivity.

kalyan, how many of the extinct practices you abide by - do you have kudumi? do you go with panchkaccham all the time?do the married womenfolk of your household wear madisar all the time?

i think, today's girls and their parents, are doing just fine. why dont you offer to marry a girl, and foot all the expenses. for a change. why do boys, still want the girls to spend the entire wedding expenses? and immediately after marriage, want to put their hand into the handsome salaries the girls earn.

i think the girls have finally woken up, and realized the raw deal they have been given by manu. and discarded the ugliness that has been fostered upon them.

It is unfortunate that some of the vedic aspects have really got convoluted over the last few decades that we see everything through a prism of influence. I think we need to distinguish what was the original intent and how things have got corrupted over years. I am not suggesting that young widows have to be shaved off or anything. Let us try and understand the original intent of the practices. The entire vedic intent was to elevate people's spiritual progress and not the material indulgence. Since men were able to go out and learn in gurukulams in those days and it was felt unsafe to send women to gurukulams or hostels, the setup was for husband to become the guru of wives. So, both men and women learn and progress in life. Also, there were 4 ashramas or stages of life that was looked at for growth of human - brahmacharya for learning, grihasta for family, vanaprasta for spouses to wander and seek meaning of life and sanyasa to attain liberation. Like I mentioned, the learning for women happens from husband at home, hence they were married early as well (again, this is a controversy in today's time - but, the intent of early marriage is very noble, I can discuss later in this thread). Grihasta and vanaprasta are common for both men and women. Sanyasa is typically for men again, as they had to wander and is unsafe for women to do so. But, when husband dies, it was suggestive for women folk to take sanyasa. Hence they followed the same practice as men having sanyasa. With regards ill omen and all that, it is again a modern day misunderstanding. Even 'eka brahmana' or a 'single brahmana' coming in front during travel is considered ill omen. So, it is not about women who has lost husband, but it is about a singleton - man or woman coming in front that is considered inauspicious when we set out for important thing. Whether one believes in such practices of omen is another thing, but definitely there was no gender discrimination in the practice. I am not saying that I have kudumi or panchakaccham, but I am only saying that one by one a lot of practices are becoming extinct. Whether it is good or bad is a point of view. The point of view about who bears expenses etc is not only about brahmins, it is a common practice across castes, and it is a welcome change to share it equally. I am not against it. But, why am I being questioned for these things? The issues are important, but nothing to do with the intercaste marriage aspect we are discussing in the thread.

Girls have not woken up. They are in deep illusion. Life doesnt end with marriage, infact it begins with marriage. With the kind of attitude being displayed by many of them, in fact it is they who are becoming 'unlovable' not the boys. If they think NBs are less political, less casteist and more caring, they are sadly mistaken. Uthapuram and other caste problems are not conflicts between brahmins and others. So many dowry deaths that happen time and again are not in brahmin families. If you can, watch the 'Neeya naana' discussion on the intercaste marriage in Vijay tv. See how the girls of other caste treated if they try to marry intercaste. You can watch NB girls saying they were tried to be killed silently by their own community and infact one girl mentioned her own 'chittappa' tried to kill her. Time will tell how the brahmin girls lead their life in situations like this. But, I am writing in this forum only for the benefit of both boys and girls, as it is for no-one's good that girls of our community lead a pathetic life and boys are rendered without marriage.

Your deep resentment for tambram civilization is very explicit in the reply of yours, but it only smacks ignorance of what it is about. You statement that only 'usually young women' are 'forced' to shave their hair etc is a british cock and bull story swallowed without any understanding of what it is about. It just tries to depict our society as cruel. But, the reality is women are free decision makers and authorities only in tamil brahmin society today. See how we treat our own girl children and how much liberty we give them versus how other communities treat them. Look around to see how may music performers, dancers, even film stars are from our society vs other society. Do you mean to say without our elders given them freedom and education this would have been possible? Will other castes treat womenfolk same way? 'Ugliness fostered upon them'??? What ugliness? Every ritual in brahmin household needs women to stand by men, infact without wife a person is not even eligible to perform a vedic ritual. Without wife, one cannot even give away child in marriage. Without wife, it is said one cannot attain heaven. A sanyasi prostrates only to a mother. A kid after upanayanam prostrates to the mother first. A kanya girl is worshipped as goddess herself. Infact, even parents can invoke the goddess on their own daughter and prostrate before her. A sumangali is considered the most auspicious person. Even a mottai paatti is prostrated to by sanyasi. This is ugliness for women?? Please look around how women are treated elsewhere and comment, Sir. Our enemies are always within, driven by ignorance.
 
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kalyankumar

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bala, do you shave the hair of the widowed women of your household?

i am very disappointed in you considering the drivel written by kalyan as 'nicely brought out'.


It is interesting you have picked one element of my examples of 'extinct aspects' to write off entire message. There seems a lot of ill-directed anger. I specifically mentioned the cultural aspect of the mottai paattis, and made that statement in a reverential way. Atleast my characterisation of them as great people should have indicated how reverentially I looked at them. But, you have viewed them in a very negative connotation. Actually I would say, it is the elimination of this practice that has harmed women more. You may ask how. The attire of reverance is important for aged women without husband, as it is also a protective shield. This practice is common across the world. Otherwise, why would a Mother Teresa or nuns or even muslim women wear head cover and othe saintly dress. There is certain reverance that gets attached to the attire. By doing away with it, we are brainwashing women that their attractive looks are more important at any age. My own grandmother wanted to take up the attire at the age of 81 when my grandfather died, by my father and his brothers would not allow that because they felt it was an insulting thing. My grandmother lived 6 more years unhappy that she was not able to do what she wanted. Now, who is at fault? Grandmother? Also, this practice is not limited to just brahmins. Many non-brahmin old women take up saintly attire after husband's death voluntarily, why are we are not critizing that? Fear! Let us not look at things with our own prisms, we cant dismiss something just because it is old. I am not saying young or old widows shouldnt remarry. With changing times and with a more realistic look at the world we are living in, we are definitely moving towards number of types of remarriages as a reality and essential thing. All I am saying is, we should not look at an ancient practice through modern day glasses and criticize.
 
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kalyankumar

Member
"It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean."
Matthew 15:11 (Holy Bible)
I think both does make person unclean, may be one does more than the other. Guess the intent of this statement is 'what you say is more important than what you eat', which is ok, but then just because you 'say good' doesnt mean you can 'act bad'. If we can avoid killing 3 animals for eating during one day of our life (a chicken for breakfast, goat for lunch and cow for dinner :)), we should try and avoid that, rather than assuming that since I speak good words, I can go ahead with the killing spree. In essence, I agree with the quote as along as the interpretation is right.
 
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kalyankumar

Member
Pol Pot, Hitler, Molotov, and Genghis Khan were all vegetarians. I am Brahmin, vegetarian. So are most of you. Hope you all got my point by now.

Also, Mother Teresa, Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela etc are all non-vegetarians. However, General Dyer, Aurangazeb, Yahayah Khan were all non-vegetarians too. What is the point? Vegetarianism has not much to do with good and bad characteristic. It is psychological nature of the person that makes one act in a cruel or kind way. Hinduism didnt prescribe vegetarianism for everyone anyway - only brahmins and vaishyas were vegetarians with others like kshatriyas were not. That was because their jobs needed the kind of food - warriors and laborers needed non-veg food while priests and merchants didnt. In today's world, given more people are moving towards non-labourous jobs, vegetarianism should actually increase, but what is happening is quite the opposite. This is because, eating has become a pleasure oriented exercise rather than a need oriented exercise. Also, vegetarianism helps for spiritual aspects which is an undeniable fact - can be easily experienced if one wants to experiment.
 
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kalyankumar

Member
It is a subject to be discussed at a higher level and a firm step needs to be taken
in the right direction.

Balasubramanian
Ambattur

Yes, but what is important is that we all do our bit by spreading the awareness, as many people are not even aware of whats going on. Also, the community leadership is virtually non-existent today, with Shankaracharya and others defamed. There is non single person who is listened to and followed, these days. Let 'us' be the change agents, like Mahatma Gandhi said.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
Yes, but what is important is that we all do our bit by spreading the awareness, as many people are not even aware of whats going on. Also, the community leadership is virtually non-existent today, with Shankaracharya and others defamed. There is non single person who is listened to and followed, these days. Let 'us' be the change agents, like Mahatma Gandhi said.

kalyan,

i am with you re our community is without leadership. of any sort. now.

i am also with you that we need to be the agents of change, as individuals, particularly important, as a community so rudderless, could have a tendency to drift, and handle each challenge, with a tactical solution, instead of a visioned long term strategy.

i would personally, like to go one step further, that we, as a faith, ie hindus, do need to reinvent ourselves, to attune our morality, practices, strictures, to be in tune with the current times, and set ourselves for growth in the future. we need to simplify our rituals, not only enable everyone to adhere to it irrespective of which part of the globe we live, but also promote community spirit as opposed to individual gratification. anyway that is my personal wish list #1.

instead, i think, and it is my ignorant opinion only, that for the past 100 years or so, we have been constantly, deliberately and consistently watering down whatever faith that our ancestors under the handle of what i call the 3Cs - cash, convenience, comfort. all this arguements here come out, because i think, some of us accept this as de facto while 'de jure' faction wishes to believe these dont happen, and even a watered down version, is better than nothing. my only query about this, is 'if we keep on watering down, where will it end, and what is right? why dont we just reinvent our reinterpret our scriptures'? it was done before - sankara, ramanuja, et al did it, and it was relevant for those times. but what they preached then, i think is outdated, and hence the constant but consistent desertion.

finally, i feel, that it is ok for your 81 year old grandmother to put mottai per her wishes. my own paternal perimma did it a few years ago, and this woman was a school teacher lifelong, and felt at the death of her husband, after a few years, to do the mottai. which is ok too. but what is not ok, and again, this is what i feel, is for a young woman, many not even matured, to go through this disfigurement - and it may not have been a practice in your household of yore, but it was a practice upto 50 or so years ago in my family. i have had aunts who in their pre teens, widowed, and did not even puberty, but went through this process. the movie, 'water', has been enacted, i think, in many a tambram household in the past few centuries. whereas, even a 60 year old man, no sooner than widowed, went in search of a spouse, always a virgin. to me, it smacks of double standards, and none of respect, deification or concern for women.

to me, the concept of a sweet old mottai patti, i have had lots in my family. there are untold sorrows and unfulfilled wishes behind those 'sweetness', for i believe, it is human, to wish to live, to seek happiness, to want children, to want sex, to want a home and rule it. a 81 year old woman, at the fag end of her life, may wish for sanyasam, but not a 20 or 30 year old woman.

today, my family women are liberated. all in 25 years. i have two 50 year old women, both successful career women, one of whom is a brand name public performer. the whole family is proud of her. she openly participated right through the centre stage at her daughter's wedding 3 years ago. just 40 years ago, her widowed grandmother was not even allowed to attend her son's ie this girl's father's wedding. once everything was over, the bride/groom went to the house to see her. that is the difference i am talking about.

i see today's woman rising and performing, as a right, and not because their male relatives 'permit' them whether it be father, brother or son. i think this mindset, that women are different - respect, deify, pedestal - in reality, has been replaced by the cold hard fact - they are our equals, breadwinner, career persons, with goals, ambitions and above all fellow-humans. some communities, some within communities have accepted this. others do not, but eventually will. where there is disagreement, tensions and its consequences are bound to happen. that does not excuse unfair attitudes and chauvinistic attitudes, however clothed they may be under the cloak of respect.

hope this explains.
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
K

kalyankumar

Member
kalyan,

i am with you re our community is without leadership. of any sort. now.

i am also with you that we need to be the agents of change, as individuals, particularly important, as a community so rudderless, could have a tendency to drift, and handle each challenge, with a tactical solution, instead of a visioned long term strategy.

i would personally, like to go one step further, that we, as a faith, ie hindus, do need to reinvent ourselves, to attune our morality, practices, strictures, to be in tune with the current times, and set ourselves for growth in the future. we need to simplify our rituals, not only enable everyone to adhere to it irrespective of which part of the globe we live, but also promote community spirit as opposed to individual gratification. anyway that is my personal wish list #1.

instead, i think, and it is my ignorant opinion only, that for the past 100 years or so, we have been constantly, deliberately and consistently watering down whatever faith that our ancestors under the handle of what i call the 3Cs - cash, convenience, comfort. all this arguements here come out, because i think, some of us accept this as de facto while 'de jure' faction wishes to believe these dont happen, and even a watered down version, is better than nothing. my only query about this, is 'if we keep on watering down, where will it end, and what is right? why dont we just reinvent our reinterpret our scriptures'? it was done before - sankara, ramanuja, et al did it, and it was relevant for those times. but what they preached then, i think is outdated, and hence the constant but consistent desertion.

finally, i feel, that it is ok for your 81 year old grandmother to put mottai per her wishes. my own paternal perimma did it a few years ago, and this woman was a school teacher lifelong, and felt at the death of her husband, after a few years, to do the mottai. which is ok too. but what is not ok, and again, this is what i feel, is for a young woman, many not even matured, to go through this disfigurement - and it may not have been a practice in your household of yore, but it was a practice upto 50 or so years ago in my family. i have had aunts who in their pre teens, widowed, and did not even puberty, but went through this process. the movie, 'water', has been enacted, i think, in many a tambram household in the past few centuries. whereas, even a 60 year old man, no sooner than widowed, went in search of a spouse, always a virgin. to me, it smacks of double standards, and none of respect, deification or concern for women.

to me, the concept of a sweet old mottai patti, i have had lots in my family. there are untold sorrows and unfulfilled wishes behind those 'sweetness', for i believe, it is human, to wish to live, to seek happiness, to want children, to want sex, to want a home and rule it. a 81 year old woman, at the fag end of her life, may wish for sanyasam, but not a 20 or 30 year old woman.

today, my family women are liberated. all in 25 years. i have two 50 year old women, both successful career women, one of whom is a brand name public performer. the whole family is proud of her. she openly participated right through the centre stage at her daughter's wedding 3 years ago. just 40 years ago, her widowed grandmother was not even allowed to attend her son's ie this girl's father's wedding. once everything was over, the bride/groom went to the house to see her. that is the difference i am talking about.

i see today's woman rising and performing, as a right, and not because their male relatives 'permit' them whether it be father, brother or son. i think this mindset, that women are different - respect, deify, pedestal - in reality, has been replaced by the cold hard fact - they are our equals, breadwinner, career persons, with goals, ambitions and above all fellow-humans. some communities, some within communities have accepted this. others do not, but eventually will. where there is disagreement, tensions and its consequences are bound to happen. that does not excuse unfair attitudes and chauvinistic attitudes, however clothed they may be under the cloak of respect.

hope this explains.

I am in agreement with your views on forced mottai and voluntary mottai. It should definitely be only by choice, not by force. If it has happened in the past, I think it is a distortion of the intent due to misconceptions. I also agree that the society needs to change with time, but only for betterment and adoption. There is no continuance of the 'society' if it gives up the core principles. I dont agree with your views on the 'permit'... I never said women are performing because men permit them to do so. You have misunderstood the context of what I said. I was replying to the perception that NBs are more broadminded with women, caste etc while tambrams are not. My view is that it is actually the otherway which is why women are able to come out and perform better. Also, I was refering to the education and upbringing to girl children that the community provides. This happens even before the girls become women and can take charge of their career. If your contention is that they will anyway shine and dont require men to permit, then please explain why it has not been so in other communities (atleast in south), in muslim communities and in afghanistan.
But my basic question is, when we are in a crisis of intercaste mess, why are these questions raised about our own community here? Shouldnt we first address the desperate situation on hand, before we move on to do the long term clean up? We should first stop the bleeding, before we address the patient's long term illness. Otherwise, there will not be any patient to treat. From some of the thread I read, I see the problem seem to exist with tambrams even outside tamilnadu. But, the situation seems really bad at TN, because the intercaste is happening between what we would have considered unimaginable few years back. Cases of good status brahmin girls eloping with petrol pump boys, bike mechanics, iron - laundary boys, car drivers etc. I am not sure if these also you would consider as strong decisions or informed decisions by girls of our community. It is a pity that when they realize what they have done, it is already too late. We can give fancy arguments like 'love is divine', 'they are taking care of their own destiny', 'redefining our entity' etc. but the fact is that we are getting into serious damage of our community.
 

anamika

Active member
kalyan,

i am with you re our community is without leadership. of any sort. now.

i am also with you that we need to be the agents of change, as individuals, particularly important, as a community so rudderless, could have a tendency to drift, and handle each challenge, with a tactical solution, instead of a visioned long term strategy.

i would personally, like to go one step further, that we, as a faith, ie hindus, do need to reinvent ourselves, to attune our morality, practices, strictures, to be in tune with the current times, and set ourselves for growth in the future. we need to simplify our rituals, not only enable everyone to adhere to it irrespective of which part of the globe we live, but also promote community spirit as opposed to individual gratification. anyway that is my personal wish list #1.

instead, i think, and it is my ignorant opinion only, that for the past 100 years or so, we have been constantly, deliberately and consistently watering down whatever faith that our ancestors under the handle of what i call the 3Cs - cash, convenience, comfort. all this arguements here come out, because i think, some of us accept this as de facto while 'de jure' faction wishes to believe these dont happen, and even a watered down version, is better than nothing. my only query about this, is 'if we keep on watering down, where will it end, and what is right? why dont we just reinvent our reinterpret our scriptures'? it was done before - sankara, ramanuja, et al did it, and it was relevant for those times. but what they preached then, i think is outdated, and hence the constant but consistent desertion.

finally, i feel, that it is ok for your 81 year old grandmother to put mottai per her wishes. my own paternal perimma did it a few years ago, and this woman was a school teacher lifelong, and felt at the death of her husband, after a few years, to do the mottai. which is ok too. but what is not ok, and again, this is what i feel, is for a young woman, many not even matured, to go through this disfigurement - and it may not have been a practice in your household of yore, but it was a practice upto 50 or so years ago in my family. i have had aunts who in their pre teens, widowed, and did not even puberty, but went through this process. the movie, 'water', has been enacted, i think, in many a tambram household in the past few centuries. whereas, even a 60 year old man, no sooner than widowed, went in search of a spouse, always a virgin. to me, it smacks of double standards, and none of respect, deification or concern for women.

to me, the concept of a sweet old mottai patti, i have had lots in my family. there are untold sorrows and unfulfilled wishes behind those 'sweetness', for i believe, it is human, to wish to live, to seek happiness, to want children, to want sex, to want a home and rule it. a 81 year old woman, at the fag end of her life, may wish for sanyasam, but not a 20 or 30 year old woman.

today, my family women are liberated. all in 25 years. i have two 50 year old women, both successful career women, one of whom is a brand name public performer. the whole family is proud of her. she openly participated right through the centre stage at her daughter's wedding 3 years ago. just 40 years ago, her widowed grandmother was not even allowed to attend her son's ie this girl's father's wedding. once everything was over, the bride/groom went to the house to see her. that is the difference i am talking about.

i see today's woman rising and performing, as a right, and not because their male relatives 'permit' them whether it be father, brother or son. i think this mindset, that women are different - respect, deify, pedestal - in reality, has been replaced by the cold hard fact - they are our equals, breadwinner, career persons, with goals, ambitions and above all fellow-humans. some communities, some within communities have accepted this. others do not, but eventually will. where there is disagreement, tensions and its consequences are bound to happen. that does not excuse unfair attitudes and chauvinistic attitudes, however clothed they may be under the cloak of respect.

hope this explains.

Thanks to you, Kunjuppu Sir, for putting things from a woman's pov.


பட்டம்
**********


ஆணின் கருத்தை
ஆக்ரோஷமாய் எதிர்த்தேன்;
அடங்காப்பிடாரி என்றார்.
அவனுடைய கருத்தை
மென்மையாய் மறுத்தேன்;
அதிகப்பிரசங்கி என்றார்;
அவன் என்ன சொன்னாலும்
அப்படியே ஆமோதித்தேன்;
"ஆஹா, இதல்லவோ
மனு போற்றிய பெண்மை!" என்றார்.
 

anamika

Active member
Hi Kalyan Sir,


Your concern about the way Tambrams are depicted in films and serials is a genuine one and has to be addressed. This thought has also occurred to me several times...


The accusation that Tambram girls nowadays marrying other caste boys may also be true. AFAIK, I don't have any idea about ic marriages, whether they work or not, but I think the reason behind this trend may be entirely different. Always the custodians of culture and traditions have been the middle-class, as the rich feel they are 'above' the culture and traditions and the poor are left to worry about their daily bread. So as always nowadays if we keenly observe there are two types of brahmins boys in the matrimonial sector - one highly affluent, foreign educated , working in foreign countries and the like and the other - poor brahmin boys left to be in vaidheegam, or any other temple priest and the like. So naturally a middle-class Tambram girl, say after her college/ working of the like cannot and will not marry a vaidheega, priest brahmin and at the same time she cannot get married to a hi-fi brahmin boy also. So, with the result she is left with some middle-class boy who can understand her financial positions, society level etc as she is moving with them only and so this blossoms into love, I think.


A middle-class tambram boy in a good govt. job nowadays is very rare to find due to the Govt. policies and reservations! The talented young tambrams fly off to good off-shores never to return except for their marriage and of course, December season, sometimes!


I have this to say reg. the culture and watering down of our values. Though the times are changing the ladies are somewhat maintaining the tradition of celebrating festivals like kolu and the like though reduced to some extent. But, they have not dropped them altogether like their male counter-parts. We all know that almost 90 % of Tambrams nowadays attend to their 'Poonal' only once in a year - on avani avittam day. Only those in vaidheegam as profession maintain their poonal.


The Kanchi Periyava himself has foreseen this trend and has given a suggestion, i.e how to balance the changing scenario and our age-old customs. He has suggested to form groups of like-minded people who can meet in a temple/ any member's house on sundays and chant the gayathri manthra a thousand times and so on.


I feel this is time menfolk of all ages start taking interest in our customs and understand and practice it. The other religious groups, like Christians and Muslims have weekend and vacation classes on their religious scriptures for their children and so they are continuing their religious education, too. But we miss that sorely. The knowledge of vedas and slokas should be passed on to the next generation. We can have religious classes during annual vacation as short term courses in prominent cities atleast, where the coming generation will have an idea and understand the concepts.


It is a fact that to find a well-knowledgeable scholar these days is really difficult. Unless we respect the existing seniors and urge them to share their knowledge, all the treasures may be easily lost in the times to come.


When we understand our civilization and tradition and concepts in the right spirit, we will be proud to be a brahmin.

Regards
Anamika
 

amala

Well-known member
AnamikaJi,

What you wrote is absolutely spot on. If i may just add one thing please. Apart from the custodians of culture being the middle classes, it is also especially the women who are seen as the custodians of culture, tradition, customs and so on at home. Which is why tambram men prefer to marry their fellow tambram ladies as they are assured of her raising the kids the way they want them to and for the ladies to follow the tradition and customs of the family/caste.

And that is perhaps why many tambram women also don't want that burden upon them. It is after all a huge burden on today's women from what I know.

As for the middle class tambram girls not wanting hi-fi boys, it may be the case that these hi-fi boys don't want them and prefer girls who are like them in the first place.
 

kunjuppu

Well-known member
venky

an interesting piece of biodata about venky, nobel laureate.

this is part of his nobel speech... two paras which i paste here

It was during this time that I met Vera Rosenberry, who was majoring in painting and was introduced to me by mutual friends because, unusually for the early 1970s in Ohio, we were both vegetarian. After an intermittent courtship that lasted only 11 months in total, we were married in 1975. She has been my companion and friend ever since, and has not only done most of the work of raising our children but uprooted herself many times to move with me all over the USA and to England. The emotional support and stable home environment she provided has been invaluable to me and my work. During that time, in addition to painting, she also became a children's book writer and illustrator, and has published over 30 books.

After my marriage at the age of 23, I was suddenly no longer alone but had a wife and a five-year-old stepdaughter, Tanya Kapka. This sudden change in my responsibilities made me realise that I had to get on with my career. I produced a passable thesis in the next year and obtained a Ph.D. in physics in 1976 just a month before our son Raman was born. But by that time I had already decided I was going to switch to biology.


it is interesting, that venky married someone at 23, who was likely older than him, who already had a child 5 years old, in or out of wedlock it does not say, and irrelevant, and who has been his consistent supporter and anchor during his journey to nobel.

a couple of thoughts crossed my mind. how many of us, parents of 23 year olds, would have accepted a marriage like this. especially with a older woman, with a 5 year old child. would we have disowned our son? what venky's parents did, he does not say, but the fact that he openly acknowledges his step daughter to the whole world, indicates a warm heart and generosity.

i am quite sure, venky would be aware of the reaction to such, among his co-tambrams, who would consider this a scar or simply that he had not mentioned this at all.

apparently it did venky good. for, as he says, it gave him the necessary stability and returned his focus from an inexplicable drift. this marriage to an older woman. i have always felt, that in many instances, where the boys are immature and ignorant to handle life, the big toxic mix, is for them to marry a younger woman, equally immature. an older woman, with a little more experience, i feel, would be a better fit.

i have seen quite a few love marriages, where the age differences is from a few months to a few years, and the woman being the older spouse. excellent marriages 100%.

maybe, our tambram girls, might want to look at our own guys, younger than them. not only would they be more virile, but also willing to be led and moulded into good husbands and better still, true partners.
 
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