Dear Shri kalyankumar, Greetings!
I thank you for taking the time and giving me the benefit of your response. You are very eloquent presenting your views and that is refreshing, I appreciate it. However, I just can't disagree more with your views.
Shri kalyankumar, you started this thread with a long list of laments about Brahmins, Brahmin way of life, icm and such matter, all of this is Dharmashastra material, not Vedantam. This is why I wanted you to clarify what you mean when you say "true brahmana" for which you asked me to go read three volumes of Deivattin Kural, an unreasonable response by any account.
Then, when I cited what Paramacharya has said about these matters you demurred and refused to take a stand. I think this is not a fair way to have a open discussion.
Now you say you want to preserve the spirit of Dharmashastras, you said "So, if we take the 'spirit' of smrithi and have a 'learned' person adopt it, I think it should be fine."
Paramacharya rejected this view, according to him not a single word can be changed, i.e. the ideal is for one to follow the dharmashastras verbatim. The flip side is, to the extent you adopt to present day conditions you are veering off the true path.
But you are still evading the question whether you would consider a society governed by dharmashastra rules a perfect society. This is a theoretical question, but it is important that you answer it as that would provide the intellectual clarity on your view of the issues that animated you in this thread, mainly icm, and Brahmnical superiority -- I cite your discussion on genes and diamond analogy for this.
Whenever I bring Dharmashastras in this forum people object that it is a dead horse. Nobody bothers about it they say. That is true, nobody bothers about these Dharmashastras, but they there in the background, the unseen foundation upon which this jAti system is built. It is these unseen dead-horse Dharmashastras that make you say non-mixing is a core principle of Brahminism.
Most Brahmins in my generation I come across harbor these retrograde ideas, only a few articulate them with eloquence like you are doing. This is seen by the rest of the society like an ugly sore in the face of Brahmin community, a sore that Brahmins can't see or don't want to see. Individual Brahmins who do not openly exhibit this obnoxious superiority are treated fairly, and if they truly reject this superiority notion they are respected and even loved by the rest of the society. But, if a Brahmin acts out this "non-mixing" in public, they will face public ridicule.
This is why no Brahmin dare act out this "non-mixing" in public anymore. It survives only in marriage alliances, and this is also changing. The youngsters are rejecting this more and more. It is still a small minority, but these are much more prevalent now than in previous generations. There will surely come a time when incidences of icm will attain critical mass and then it will become the norm. This is inevitable. This is not unique to Brahmins or Tamils, all societies experience this. There will always be tension between those who want to preserve tradition and those who want to change archaic anachronistic practices. Change will always win, because change is constant.
Cheers!
Every opinion based on scientific criticism I welcome. As to prejudices .. to which I have never made concessions ... “Segui il tuo corso, e lascia dir le genti.” -- Karl Marx
Nara Ji,
You seem to have the knack of making people come out with views on issues even if they don't really intend to foray into the same. Anyway, if you sincerely feel it is helping people understand these complex things better, I dont mind coming out with my views on these.
True brahmana - is a long explanation - going by traditional view, hence I refered you to Paramacharya's work, as it is possibly the most simple and contemporary view of the same. Anyway, Manu defines what is a braahmana dharma - "adhyaapanam adhyayanam yajanam yaajanam haanam prathigrahaha are the 6 must dos for braahmana", ie one must study vedas, teach vedas, do yaagaas, make others perform yaagaas, give daanam and receive daanam.
Contemporarily, I think the minimum qualities of braahmana are - perform samskaras from jaatakarma onwards, do pancha yagja (like deva yagna, pithru yagna, bootha yagna through giving food to animals, birds etc), gayathri upaasana, vegetarianism, reasonable studies of vedas if not full (swaadhyaaya & pravachana), some level of aachara, non-mixing, lead by example for ones varna and other varnas, and finally following 4 ashramas to liberate oneself (brahmacharya - sanyaasa). It may be a bit tall ask, but I think these are possible even in this age. I for one am able to do these without compromising or conflicting any of the things which are contemporary for my age. There may be different levels one might be able to accomodate things - for example on pancha yagna, vedic study etc - but, as long as gayathri, vegetarianism and non-mixing are kept up, one is still a brahmin, which is a position even paramacharya accepts. He says the only spark that is still left with brahmins is gayathri and that can be used to bring the fire back.
On the complaint of my evading the question on dharmashaastra being rule of the law, I am not sure what more I can do to make my stand clear. I think varna system in "its entirely" is obsolete and all said and done, it was a system put forth by vedas for enabling society to perform various duties and yet align the duties to ones nature so that one can progress spiritually. Truly this was the intent of the system. A person born as Kshatriya was to be performing warriors' duties and through that elevate oneself towards moksham / brahma gnaanam. Same way, a person born as shudra was to be performing physical labour through which to elevate oneself towards the moksham. This was not even after different births, but in the same birth. We see nayanmaars belong to these 4 different varnas attaining moksham in the same birth. This was how the society was functioning in vedic world - there was no 'competition' in that society, as there were no 'choices'.
We need to understand why the varna system was an excellent system. Let me take an example - in chennai, prior to 1990s, 'coffee' meant a standard mix of certain components and only variant was 'without sugar' for diabetic. Today, when we board an aircraft and ask for a coffee, there are 15 variants - coffee with milk, without milk, with diary creamer, decaffinated, with brown sugar, with white sugar, without sugar, latte coffee, it goes on. Having more choices - has it really enhanced the experience of drinking coffee? In fact, it only makes one unsure whether the choice made was right or not. Same holds for choice of job, choice of partner, choice of lifestyle - every one is unsure, unhappy about choices made, often blaming others & surroundings for ones unhappiness.
Think of a system where the job is 'given' by birth - one doesnt even have to make a choice, so no 'competition'.... Think of system where spouse is 'given' before one becomes an adult (just like parents are 'given', brothers & sisters are 'given') - there is no 'choosing' involved, so no competition or complaint... do we ever complain why a particular set of parents or brothers or sisters for us? (insignificant few may do so, but very unusual).
Same way, duties were 'given' for ones' varna, one's aashrama (stage of life) and ones role - eg., what are my duties to my parents, what are my duties to my kids, what are my duties to my guru - it was a 'duty' centered society and not a 'right' centered society. No one would say 'this is my right... I will have my way'.. instead, others' duty becomes 'my right' by default.
Athithis were considered gods, gurus were considered gods, mother was considered goddess, father a god, elderly were respected, even nomads (sanyaasis) were considered gods.. It was a system, where the 'giver' felt blessed by 'giving'. Today, we make the 'receiver' of alms feel sick and small. In vedic system, the 'receiver' was made to feel blessed; people serve food and prostrate to those who have taken food and even give 'buktha dakshinaa' to people who took food - that was the way our society 'gave'. Same way, elderly people felt 'important' inside the family and in the society, not vanquished in old-age homes. Nomads were prostrated to, fed without any questions asked, sheltered in mutts so that they can learn about 'liberation' and attain moksham. Animals were workshipped, birds were worshipped, even ants were fed through bhoota yagnams. All these were primarily observed by brahmin community and others tried to emulate. Was such a society 'retrograde'? I would say that society was 'far advanced' in their vision.
So, if there is a choice of such a rule and society to come back again, well I would vote for it. But, can we really think of all 4 varnas to be resurrected etc today? May be an 'avatara' can resurrect it. But, in the absence of the same, I think minimum of one varna has to survive, because that is one duty that cannot be done by others. Shudra's job can be done by any varna, kshatriya's job has become more of intellectual job these days & the arms are all rockets etc so can be done by anyone, vaishya's job can be done by anyone. But the braahmana's dharma cannot be done by others due to various stipulations. We cant argue this, as the pramaana here is only vedas and it is only driven by our 'shraddhaa' that we make this statement - 'why' for this question cannot be answered in any other way. But, if doing other varnaa's job will elevate one towards moksha is a question possibly difficult to answer.
But, the theory that there was discrimination in the varna society was fallacious, I have already covered it in earlier post and the presence of 'obnoxious superiority' feeling of brahmins is something I dont agree with.
On your point about how society moves and ICM etc, I agree that is how it is happening and it will happen. But, all we can conclude is that it is not good that way, so, anything small we can do to stop the degradation, we should make an attempt.
