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Are Not Tamil Brahmins Tamilians ?

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<<Vaylan ---- Among Indian communities, Brahmins seem to me the least likely to support each other. No, I do not have any statistics and my observation is based on anecdotal recall.
If we don't support each other how can we expect others to support us ?
In your life, in your own way, make it a point to support your Brahmin friends regardless of sub-sects. ( Whether he is Tamil Brahmin , Telugu Brahmin, Iyer, Iyengar, etc etc - support and help your Brahmin brothers ! It's a start! )<<<<

Amen! Bro! I entirely agree with your observations and your statements!!
How are you doing? I am in Chennai now!


 
I Am Not Against Telugu Brahmins / Iyengars!! Why Don't You People Protest

Vaylan said:
You are welcome Kaundinya.

Guys, we have moved beyond this little incident, but Kaundinya raises an important point.

Among Indian communities, Brahmins seem to me the least likely to support each other. No, I do not have any statistics and my observation is based on anecdotal recall.

If we don't support each other how can we expect others to support us ?

In your life, in your own way, make it a point to support your Brahmin friends regardless of sub-sects. ( Whether he is Tamil Brahmin , Telugu Brahmin, Iyer, Iyengar, etc etc - support and help your Brahmin brothers ! It's a start! )
Click to expand...
*********************************************************

I am not against Telugu Brahmins. Both KCHANDRA & KSPV are from Andhra Pradesh. The former is a Telugu-speaking Kamma & the latter a Telugu-speaking Brahmin. They are free to fight each other but in the process why should they drag the Tamil Brahmins ? What has their fight got to do with TAMBRAMS ? I hope you understand my point. Tamilbrahmins.com is NOT the right forum for their fight. Is not the following post by kchandra in bad taste ? I am not an Iyengar. How come no Iyengar has objected to this piece by Kchandra ? This piece shows the double standards of our administrators.
********************************************************* BY KCHANDRA:-
-------------
All this gossip reminds me of an incident several years ago , while studying. When I struck up a conversation with a fellow non-brahmin tamil classmate, the topic moved to Iyengars for some reason. He claimed that some sections of Iyengars (dont kno which sect) are very fair because they let their women folk SLEEP with the english men and also that is how they inherited some of the industrial houses left by the English. To me, this was a shock, and obviously wrong. I refused to believe this and I chastised him right there not to speak ill of any caste. And i also explained to him a lot of Indians are fair skinned, perhaps these Iyengars came from north or from west coast where people are fair. He then even told me that I am brahmin pretending to be a non-brahman because i am taking their side.

:lever: :playball:
 
Can we not bury the hatchet ?

Kaundinya,

As far as i know, In this forum, your thread is the most read & most replied to & i am sure you can feel happy for initiating discussions of a wide ranging nature.

Whatever happened has happened & can we not just bury the hatchet & move ahead with other discussions ?

Also your point about "why iyengars are not protesting" underlines the point of Vaylan. I feel your protest is as good as any "iyengar's protest" since we should be looking at the "larger picture" as a community.....

Much water has flown under Ganga, Kauvery, Cooum, Missippi, Indus after the posts of K Chandra / KSPV & points have been made & understood. I hope we can just leave it at that.

Bit bidi saar !!!!!
 
KAUNDINYA said:
*********************************************************

I am not against Telugu Brahmins. Both KCHANDRA & KSPV are from Andhra Pradesh. The former is a Telugu-speaking Kamma & the latter a Telugu-speaking Brahmin. They are free to fight each other but in the process why should they drag the Tamil Brahmins ? What has their fight got to do with TAMBRAMS ? I hope you understand my point. Tamilbrahmins.com is NOT the right forum for their fight. Is not the following post by kchandra in bad taste ? I am not an Iyengar. How come no Iyengar has objected to this piece by Kchandra ? This piece shows the double standards of our administrators.
:lever: :playball:
Click to expand...


Hello Administrator, Kaudinya, KSPV and others,
It seems the posting on Kammas and the subsequent responses/postings seem to have ruffled quite a few feathers ( including mine and Kaudinya's !). I have a few things that might hopefully soothe those feathers:

I do not think I personally represent Kamma community! and certainly my reponse is not a fight against KSPV or any other community. Specifically I have no intention of dragging Tamil or telugu brahmins or any other community for a fight (And i am sure we all have better things to do in life than attacking other communities!). My response was to a specific post by a specific member . That is all there is to it.

As for my posting on Iyengars, Kaudinya, I was merely giving an example of how someone's views , if taken literally , can be in bad taste. If you notice I was only quoting someone else, and clearly and unambiguously, not in agreement what was stated about Iyengars. But I do admit, my statement , is definitely in bad taste, but to give an example of something unpleasant, one is forced to "quote" unpleasant things. Personally I have nothing against any community ( including Iyengars ) and if unintentionally i have hurt them, then once again my apologies. And I reinstate what I said before , that I have high regard for Tamil brahmins and have many tamil (and telugu) brahmin friends.

I do not need to take to task KSPV or Kaudinya personally, but I can certainly disagree with them very strongly to any degree. And definitely point out inconsistencies or statements that may not be true in my opinion. And about the gossip part, yes, I think credibility of any forum that contains unsubstantiated stuff, might be eroded. And this forum is no exception to that.

All said and done, at the end of the day, we live in a free society and we all have the right to talk ( or post or whatever ) about any community. This includes KSPV's posting on kammas. But , my only request is that , if we are discussing any sensitive topics, we exercise a little restraint and if at all we have something to say, that is not substantiated or is a personal opinion, then clearly state that so in the post. So that it is not taken literally (and become a source of gossip mills). Is that too much to ask for?.

Good luck for members of this forum!.

- Kchandra
 
Point well taken!

I returned to this thread after sometime, and was little surprised to see that the tempers have not died down! As to my original posting, I had already mentioned about the grounds to it in another posting of mine.

Having said that, K.Chandra's point is well taken. I should have been more restrained / guarded while expressing views on topics of sensitive nature. I forgot the golden rule of "Satyam & Priyam", and I promise that it will not happen again in future. However, it so happened, that by the time I actually wanted to go back to it and edit it, other forum members had already quoted me in their postings, and so I had decided to let it lie there. K.Chandra's response infact came late, after me and others moved on to the other threads.

If the moderators feel appropriate, they may please clip my original posting and expunge the "inappropriate" paragraphs, and also do the same with the postings of others where my original posting was quoted. That will rectify the source of the problem. Kaundinya's grievances too will perhaps get assauged with that.
 
Foresight perhaps ?

N.SURESH said:
I Cannot Underestand Why The Late Periyar Was Called As 'father' Any Significance For This?
Click to expand...

Could be foresight !!! that TN was later destined to have an "Amma" & an "Anna".

Or it could be that he "fathered" hatred & everyone blindly followed him according to the adage - "Thanthai sol mikka mandiram yedhu ?"

Or when he married 'Maniyammai' (who was 30 & EVR was 70 at the time of their marriage), people couldn't be faulted in thinking that he was 'Maniyammai's thanthai' which perhaps gradually got abbreviated to just 'thanthai'.
 
Tamil brahmins are not brahmins

The DMk and DK do not consider tamil brahmins as Tamilians, even though many of the Tamil brahmins do not know any other language other than Tamil. DMK has put up Marwari candidates as MLA. Many of the Chettys, Gounder are telugu speaking. For them a north indian brahmin is acceptable. EVR was a telugu speaking naickkar.Such is the hatred they are having for tamil brahmins. One of the basic reason is the non-violent attitude of Tamil brahmins. For DMK and Dk Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohamed are acceptable. The ostensible argument is taht the caste was created by brahmins. If why Sunnis and Shia fight? Why catholics and protestant fight? None of the Indian states were ruled by brahmin kings. The DMK government has gone to the extent of blacking out the birth day of Maha Kavi Bharathiar. All of you would have observed that there was no mention of Bharathiar's birthday by the Government and most of the newspapers except as a footnote.Let us all fight together by what ever means possible.
Subramanian
 
Dear Sri Subramanian,
I respect your views. But is it worth the trouble to analyse the so called Dravidian Politics, while we are discussing a serious Subject like the relationship of Tamil Language to Tamil Brahmins? Tamil is our mother tongue. No doubt about that. Many in our Community have done a lot for the enrichment of the Language. When we go out side the state we are called Dravida Brahmins. It is the inborn trait of a Brahmin to learn and master all languages. We do not encourage language hatred. Knowledge and wisdom are the birth right of every human being. We as a community follow the Rig Vedic dictum "Let noble thoughts come to us from every side". Let us continue to be Tamil Brahmins.Brahmanyan.
 
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Evr Was A Kannadiga

subra51 said:
The DMk and DK do not consider tamil brahmins as Tamilians, even though many of the Tamil brahmins do not know any other language other than Tamil. DMK has put up Marwari candidates as MLA. Many of the Chettys, Gounder are telugu speaking. For them a north indian brahmin is acceptable. EVR was a telugu speaking naickkar.Such is the hatred they are having for tamil brahmins. One of the basic reason is the non-violent attitude of Tamil brahmins. For DMK and Dk Jesus Christ and Prophet Mohamed are acceptable. The ostensible argument is taht the caste was created by brahmins. If why Sunnis and Shia fight? Why catholics and protestant fight? None of the Indian states were ruled by brahmin kings. The DMK government has gone to the extent of blacking out the birth day of Maha Kavi Bharathiar. All of you would have observed that there was no mention of Bharathiar's birthday by the Government and most of the newspapers except as a footnote.Let us all fight together by what ever means possible.
Subramanian
Click to expand...
********************************************************
EVR was not Telugu-speaking but was a Kannada Balija Naicker. His ancestors were from Karnataka.
:juggle: :gossip:
 
Hege Biduvudhu Swami ?

hariharan1972 said:
Kaundinya,

As far as i know, In this forum, your thread is the most read & most replied to & i am sure you can feel happy for initiating discussions of a wide ranging nature.

Whatever happened has happened & can we not just bury the hatchet & move ahead with other discussions ?

Also your point about "why iyengars are not protesting" underlines the point of Vaylan. I feel your protest is as good as any "iyengar's protest" since we should be looking at the "larger picture" as a community.....

Much water has flown under Ganga, Kauvery, Cooum, Missippi, Indus after the posts of K Chandra / KSPV & points have been made & understood. I hope we can just leave it at that.

Bit bidi saar !!!!!
Click to expand...
Hege biduvudhu swami ? Thamilu brahmanara bagge yaaraadharu enaadharu thappagi baradhare, adhakke uttara koduvudhu nanna karthavya. Idharalli enu thappidhe swami?

"Naguvudho aluvudho neevae haeli
Biduvudho iruvudho ee rajyadhalli (T.N.)"---- "KANNADADHA KANMANI", "NATASAARVABHOWMA" Late RAAJKUMAR's song slightly modified to portray the plight of TAMBRAMS in T.N.

SORRY FOR MURDERING KANNADA.

:pray: :juggle:
 
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SORRY FOR MURDERING KANNADA.
Click to expand...
Your Kannada is doing just fine! Cultivate it, for it will help add to the list of your friends, well-wishers and audience. You will make friends wherever you go if you can speak their language!

EVR was not Telugu-speaking but was a Kannada Balija Naicker. His ancestors were from Karnataka.
Click to expand...
Just for the record sake (and I hope K.Chandra and the other non-brahmin members do not find it "casteist" ;-) ), Wodeyar Maharaja of Mysore had many Telugu speaking Balija Naidus in his army, as well as in his court. For example, Raja Ravi Varma's painter-teacher who had a lasting influence on him in painting Hindu Gods in "humanoid" form was Doraiswamy Naidu from Wodeyar's court. You will find other Naidu families from Andhra similarly finding their way via Mysore to other places, like violinist Dwaram Venkataswamy Naidu. Wodeyars patronized artistes from all rungs of society (despite certain "behavioural blemishes" attributed to them such as weakness for the fairer sex), one example being another violinist Chowdaiah, who is a Scheduled Caste member.

Some Balija Naidus whose roots are from Andhra reached as far as Mozambique and South Africa, where you do find a seizable population of them (just as Nobel laurate Sir V.S.Naipaul's ancestors, who were brahmins, went to West Indies along with several of their kin 150 years back - His "India, A Million Mutinies," has a chapter on his roots, and also on the crisis being faced by Tamil brahmins). If you remember, South African cabinet of Nelson Mandela had couple of Naidus as ministers (they write Naidu as "Naidoo", and Rao as "Roo", an example being Mr.Veerasamy Rangaroo). While they do attempt to keep their traditions alive, there is very little Telugu or "caste" left in them.

Secondly, all of them are not anti-brahmin. You find a dedicated following for Kanchi mutt amongst some Naidu families.
 
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kspv said:
Your Kannada is doing just fine! Cultivate it, for it will help add to the list of your friends, well-wishers and audience. You will make friends wherever you go if you can speak their language!
*********************************************************
I know TELUGU, KANNADA & MALAYALAM scripts (alphabets) very well. I can read all sign-boards, etc., but I can't speak these languages. Of course I can understand them to a large extent.I have also devised a script of my own which resembles Telugu & Kannada but nobody can read it unless he is a great yogi or siddha. Of course my script is based on Telugu & Kanada scripts. Any Indian language can be written in it. I know Hindi very well, I can read, write & speak it.
**********************************************************
(Quote=kspv)
Secondly, all of them are not anti-brahmin. You find a dedicated following for Kanchi mutt amongst some Naidu families.
*********************************************************

I never said that all Naidus are anti-Brahmin. Even NTR was an ardent devotee of the Paramacharya of Kanchi. When the late Paramacharya of Kanchi entered A.P. from Karnataka in the 1980s, NTR, the then C.M. of A.P., gave the former a grand reception with poornakumbha at the A.P. border. I know a Telugu-speaking Balija Naidu woman who has married a Konkani-speaking Gowda Saaraswat Brahmin. I know several Telugu-speaking Balijas who are fanatical Sri Vaishnavas.

:preggers: :playball:
Click to expand...
 
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Tamil brahmins are much more tamilian than DK and DMK fellows. If a neutral person give marks to them , the way they live with respect Thirukkural they will get zero only. Their arguement is just for obtaining political milage. If MK is talking much abt tamils why has he got married to two persons?No need to mention EVR here. Ppl know they are bad guys. Still they vote for them. Why? 'They will do something for our caste'. Thats the answer u wil get.That is the strong point he has. Its a known fact he is fielding candidates based on the caste and religion. Its all normal things in Democracy. Even constitution is not able to protect our legitimate rights.
 
Are Brahmin's Tamilians?

There was a professor from the University of California by the name of Noel King who actually postulated that the Brahmins are originally from the south. This is because sanskrit was not originally written in the devangari script and the earliest sanscrit writings in existance are actually written in a script very close to tamil. Also tradition says that the Kings of Kumari Kundaram (the mysterious island that used to be south of India) and Sri Lanka were all Brahmins! - (including the villain Ravana of the Ramayana!!!)

Noel King suggests that Indian civilization may have started in the south and then moved up north.

Much has yet has not been studied about the mysterious Kumari Kundarum legend and it's great king Murugan. There is a whole southern tradition of saints from the time of Agastya that talk about ancient legends from a previous land.

Another possible scenario is that the brahmins come from the south and the kshatrias from the north. Their meeting created the Indian culture after an initial clash of cultures as shown in the pre-vedic stories of Parashu Rama.

Again all this is just conjecture but then again all of Indian history is conjecture.The more one studies Indian history, the more paradoxes unfold. It leaves more questions then answers. If you are being told otherwise, then you are pobably are not being told the entire truth.

It's time to get history out of the hands of politicians and people with agendas (like the BJP, Marxists, University professors with pet theories, etc...) and start putting it in the hands of people who would search out dispassionately for the truth wherever it may lead even if it opens up a pandora's box.

Otherwise the past will be buried forever.
 
How Can You Be Sure?

Whether there was a Lumeria or not, we don't know. Whether there was a lost continent of Atlantis, we don't know. All we have are ancient stories and legends.

There was a legend of the seven pagodas of Mahabulipoorum. Anyone who had been to Mahabulipoorum has known that these pagodas don't exist on what we know today as Mahabulipoorum. Recently, a geological survey has found that much of Mahabulipoorum is now in the sea. Same with Dwarka.

So we don't know. We are just investigating. But legends are interesting enough to study as to the reasons why such legends.

The Myth would be to come to a conclusion before doing an adequite study of the facts. Since you are certain, maybe you are the one living in a myth!
 
Shanti Brahm said:
Whether there was a Lumeria or not, we don't know. Whether there was a lost continent of Atlantis, we don't know. All we have are ancient stories and legends.

There was a legend of the seven pagodas of Mahabulipoorum. Anyone who had been to Mahabulipoorum has known that these pagodas don't exist on what we know today as Mahabulipoorum. Recently, a geological survey has found that much of Mahabulipoorum is now in the sea. Same with Dwarka.

So we don't know. We are just investigating. But legends are interesting enough to study as to the reasons why such legends.

The Myth would be to come to a conclusion before doing an adequite study of the facts. Since you are certain, maybe you are the one living in a myth!
Click to expand...

I think you did not go through the wikipedia or britanica. I think you are jumping to conclusion to suit your thoughts.

From wikipedia:


Lemuria is the name of a hypothetical "lost land" variously located in the Indian and Pacific Oceans. Its 19th century origins lie in attempts to account for discontinuities in biogeography. Lemuria has been rendered superfluous by modern understanding of plate tectonics.
Though Lemuria has passed out of the realm of science, it has been adopted by occult writers, as well as some Tamil people of India. Accounts of Lemuria differ according to the requirements of their contexts. However, all share a common belief that the continent existed in ancient times but sank beneath the ocean as a result of geological change, often cataclysmic.
Geologists today regard sunken continents as physical impossibilities, given the isostatic equilibrium of continental plates floating on the thermoplastic mantle.
 
Wrong Again my friend!

Anyone can write for Wikipedia. Even you. All you need is a login, much like this site over here.

There is vertical as well as horizontal motion of plates:

http://www.trincoll.edu/~cgeiss/tr/tr2/tr_2_p1.pdf



Want a simple Q&A on plate tectonic geology?

http://epsc.wustl.edu/classwork/classwork_210a/pdfs/mew5.pdf


Anyway, I'm sure you got your PhD from the University of Wikipedia so I may not be able to get beyond your bias. But any scientist who makes outright statements of ABSOLUTISM really needs a good training in simple logic. Which is basically the sad state of the academic world today. But I'll stick to academic papers over Wikipedia any day.
 
If anyone can write anything in wikipedia please go ahead and write your theory and see whether it gets accepted . Wikipedia goes through thorough edition.
 
Good One!

I ask anyone on this forum to start submitting articles to Wikipedia and see if it gets published. 9 out of 10 times it will.

Any brahmin who has the credentials of Shastri can go ahead and publish on Wikipedia and I encourage all Shastris to do so with all the knowledge they have being put to good use.

Thanks for the suggestion, Kubali!

Shastri beats professor with degree in communism anyday on Wikipedia Hindu pages.
 
HINDI SPEAKING OBCs WELCOME
HINDI SPEAKING STAFF AT TN AIRPORTS OK
HINDI SPEAKING BODYGUARDS FOR KARNUNANIDHI OK
HINDI PAINTS ON TN TRAINS OK
HINDI ONLY ANNOUCEMENTS ON TN FLIGHTS OK
…. BUT TAMIL BRAHMINS TO BE ELIMINATED OUT OF TN…
DMK’s ANTI-HINDI IS ONLY AN ON-STAGE DRAMA BUT ANTI-(TAMIL) BRAHMIN IS MORE THAN REAL

Sir
I wish to bring to your attention that many backward castes, most backward caste listed in Tamil Nadu’s reserved caste category speak language other than Tamil. The list is seen Tamil Nadu website http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm
These includes countless communities where Telugu is spoken at home, also several Kannada speaking caste and Urdu Muslim communities who essentially speak Hindi.
The chairman of Tamil Nadu’s minority commision is Pyarelal Jain, a Hindi-speaking Jain appointed by Karunanidhi.
Tamil Brahmins despite being the “biggest scoundrels” according to Karunanidhi are still Tamils. How is that Karunanidhi is reaching out even to North Indians for votes by printing Hindi pamphlets in last election. Why is DMK hating Tamil Brahmins but at the sametime reaching out for North Indians residing in TN.
Many CBSE schools in Tamil Nadu continue to impose Hindi (as compulsory subject), while Tamil can be conveniently skipped. This is sharp contrast to Karnataka where all schools including CBSE school which dont teach Kannada as compulsory subject will be de-recognized. Karunanidhi has come to power the 4th time now. Still the Hindi impositition in CBSE flourishes .
Why are Tamil Nadu’s ports of entry i.e airports and ports staffed by people who speak Hindi and dont know Tamil?
Why has Karunidhi failed on his promise to have mandatory Tamil annoucements on all Tamil Nadu flights.
Recently there was court case against use of Tamil as official language in TN and also opposition. Many people who oppose this are also covered under Tamil Nadu reservation.
Why are evils such as 2-tumbler system and seperate well system so prevelent in Southern TN where there is virtually no ’scoundrel’ Brahmins left. It seems that amoung BC caste there is lot of descrimination and Dalits are still suffering while the bloody TN govt, Karunidhi etc are wantonly ignoring and supporting this.
It all looks like that the reservation policy is the most convenient means by “Tamil” politicians to destroy Tamil, Tamil society for their personal gains.
Tamil patriots would have done something great if they had reservation for one Tamil caste in TN rather than commercial certificates which many non-Tamil speaker can purchase.
Nandri Vanakkam
தமிழ் சமத்துவம்
http://i.am/tamil
 
tam politics

Tamil politics of Karunanidhi is just an eyewash.Everybody knows it well.Name of his TV,The culture it promotes,Kind of education given to Dayanidhi (I dont know abt others in their family) all will clearly show its not representing what he preaches. Karunanidhi is a gud orator but not a follower of his own policies in this area. So language issue doesnt matter for him.He can still fool ppl and become a greater orator. The day when all rulers children go to Govt schools,MLAs eating the fud thr,taking tr8ment in GH is the true day when we can proudly say 'Its our Govt'.Till then all rulers are mere actors.


தமிழ்சமத்துவம்;3945 said:
HINDI SPEAKING OBCs WELCOME
HINDI SPEAKING STAFF AT TN AIRPORTS OK
HINDI SPEAKING BODYGUARDS FOR KARNUNANIDHI OK
HINDI PAINTS ON TN TRAINS OK
HINDI ONLY ANNOUCEMENTS ON TN FLIGHTS OK
…. BUT TAMIL BRAHMINS TO BE ELIMINATED OUT OF TN…
DMK’s ANTI-HINDI IS ONLY AN ON-STAGE DRAMA BUT ANTI-(TAMIL) BRAHMIN IS MORE THAN REAL

Sir
I wish to bring to your attention that many backward castes, most backward caste listed in Tamil Nadu’s reserved caste category speak language other than Tamil. The list is seen Tamil Nadu website http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm
These includes countless communities where Telugu is spoken at home, also several Kannada speaking caste and Urdu Muslim communities who essentially speak Hindi.
The chairman of Tamil Nadu’s minority commision is Pyarelal Jain, a Hindi-speaking Jain appointed by Karunanidhi.
Tamil Brahmins despite being the “biggest scoundrels” according to Karunanidhi are still Tamils. How is that Karunanidhi is reaching out even to North Indians for votes by printing Hindi pamphlets in last election. Why is DMK hating Tamil Brahmins but at the sametime reaching out for North Indians residing in TN.
Many CBSE schools in Tamil Nadu continue to impose Hindi (as compulsory subject), while Tamil can be conveniently skipped. This is sharp contrast to Karnataka where all schools including CBSE school which dont teach Kannada as compulsory subject will be de-recognized. Karunanidhi has come to power the 4th time now. Still the Hindi impositition in CBSE flourishes .
Why are Tamil Nadu’s ports of entry i.e airports and ports staffed by people who speak Hindi and dont know Tamil?
Why has Karunidhi failed on his promise to have mandatory Tamil annoucements on all Tamil Nadu flights.
Recently there was court case against use of Tamil as official language in TN and also opposition. Many people who oppose this are also covered under Tamil Nadu reservation.
Why are evils such as 2-tumbler system and seperate well system so prevelent in Southern TN where there is virtually no ’scoundrel’ Brahmins left. It seems that amoung BC caste there is lot of descrimination and Dalits are still suffering while the bloody TN govt, Karunidhi etc are wantonly ignoring and supporting this.
It all looks like that the reservation policy is the most convenient means by “Tamil” politicians to destroy Tamil, Tamil society for their personal gains.
Tamil patriots would have done something great if they had reservation for one Tamil caste in TN rather than commercial certificates which many non-Tamil speaker can purchase.
Nandri Vanakkam
தமிழ் சமத்துவம்
http://i.am/tamil
Click to expand...
 
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