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are not tamil brahmins tamilians?
tamil brahmins are the only real tamilians because real tamilians one who should speak tamil properly. Most of household words of brahmins in TN are pure tamil words which is generally not used by any other category. We do not require certificate from dravidian fools for our loyalty to tamil, which is our mother tongue.
About Periyar (for me he is only Siriyar), he was nothing but a sheer opportunist. Yesterday, I was discussing with an elderly person, who was knowledgeable about politics of the past. When Periyar was in Congress he swindled money heavily. He was caught red handed by Satyamoorthy (a brahmin); this was the main reason for this siriyar becoming anti-brahmin.
Siriyar often used to be questioned by his friends in Erode stating that "what periyar, right on the morning you have started abusing us"? For this, Siriyar used to reply as "Uthara Nimitham" (vayitru pozappu). And also all the meetings, he used to charge Rs.101/- what is this Rs.101/- ?
tamil brahmins are the only real tamilians because real tamilians one who should speak tamil properly. Most of household words of brahmins in TN are pure tamil words which is generally not used by any other category. We do not require certificate from dravidian fools for our loyalty to tamil, which is our mother tongue.
About Periyar (for me he is only Siriyar), he was nothing but a sheer opportunist. Yesterday, I was discussing with an elderly person, who was knowledgeable about politics of the past. When Periyar was in Congress he swindled money heavily. He was caught red handed by Satyamoorthy (a brahmin); this was the main reason for this siriyar becoming anti-brahmin.
Siriyar often used to be questioned by his friends in Erode stating that "what periyar, right on the morning you have started abusing us"? For this, Siriyar used to reply as "Uthara Nimitham" (vayitru pozappu). And also all the meetings, he used to charge Rs.101/- what is this Rs.101/- ?
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KAUNDINYA
Guest
Mr.KSPV, it is very astonishing to read that there was an anti-Brahmin movement in A.P. The man who spearheaded the movement in T.N. was E.V.Ramawamy Naicker, a Kannada Balija Naidu & the one who spearheaded the movement in A.P. was Ramaswamy Choudhary, a Kamma Naidu. What a similarity! The first name of both is Ramaswamy & both belong to some naidu caste or the other!!!
Some non-Brahmins here say that the KOMATI SETTIES (also known as Arya Vaisyas) were born between Andhra Brahmin men and Oddar (a scheduled caste) women. Is it true?
Anyway Andhra Brahmins are luckier than Tamil Brahmins. The anti-Brahmin movement of A.P. was never as virulent as the one in T.N. and no non-Brahmin Andhra ever says that Telugu Brahmins are not Telugus. I learn that most of the Telugu pundits & Telugu teachers in A.P. schools and colleges are Brahmins.
Some non-Brahmins here say that the KOMATI SETTIES (also known as Arya Vaisyas) were born between Andhra Brahmin men and Oddar (a scheduled caste) women. Is it true?
Anyway Andhra Brahmins are luckier than Tamil Brahmins. The anti-Brahmin movement of A.P. was never as virulent as the one in T.N. and no non-Brahmin Andhra ever says that Telugu Brahmins are not Telugus. I learn that most of the Telugu pundits & Telugu teachers in A.P. schools and colleges are Brahmins.
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KAUNDINYA
Guest
Tej Singh ("desingu") Was A North Indian
Raja Tej Singh (called "Desingu" in Tamil), who ruled over SENJI (the British mispronounced it as "GINGEE") was a north Indian Rajput and so there is nothing strange about his name. His descendants and the descedants of his employees still live in NORTH T.N. and speak corrupt Hindi.:deadhorse:
:rockon:
navy-eswaran said:
Raja Tej Singh (called "Desingu" in Tamil), who ruled over SENJI (the British mispronounced it as "GINGEE") was a north Indian Rajput and so there is nothing strange about his name. His descendants and the descedants of his employees still live in NORTH T.N. and speak corrupt Hindi.:deadhorse:
:rockon:
Kaundinya,
I never heard about this "hybrid" thing with respect to Komati Settis in Andhra Pradesh. In Andhra , these are totally vegetarian and soft-spoken, though their shrewd business instincts and frugality remain intact. Most of them are dark complexioned, and fair complexion is a rarity amongst them. In fact I have a childhood friend from that community who is still waiting at 35 to marry a fair-complexioned bride. The fact that they prefix the word, "Arya" (not necessarily in the "Aryan-Dravidian" sense, but to mean, "respected," as many Brahmins used to address each other in the past) to their caste-name, show that they have some propensity to Brahminical practices. The present no.2 in Andhra Cabinet, Shri. Rosaiah, is from that community. Oddars as a caste are unfamiliar to Andhra. May be they exist in some other name there.
In lighter vein:
I guess it was a prevalent practice (and trendy) for the rich and the worldly among several castes in the past, to maintain a "Chinnaveedu" (is that the correct word in Tamil?) with women of other castes whom they can not officially marry. The women too used to fall for these men either because of the looks, or wealth, or both. But for the fact that these were not officially married to the man, the ladies used to get treated as wives for all practical purposes, and even used to keep the man's surname for their children. However, the children never enjoyed the same social status or property rights as the official wife's children.
One of my great-grandfathers had maintained a "Chinnaveedu" with a lady from Devadasi community, and had sired children with her. They kept the same surname as us, and never failed to take pride in the fact that they were "some how" related to us. For us, they were non-existent and unmentionable. In course of time, as the Devadasi tradition vanished, they too married normally, and had children.
However, the problem came in my father's generation, when one of the lady decendents from the other stock (shall I say "my father's cousin"?) became the head of the establishment (due to her academic accomplishments) in which my father was working as a subordinate. That lady was cordial, and frequently used to take my father's opinion on official matters. My father, even while being a loyal subordinate in the office, used to come home and grumble about how he is feeling "insulted" to serve under her. So much for origins!
I am sure, if the mentioned lady's children do well in their studies and earn a name for themselves, they would soon come to be accepted as Brahmins as genuine as any body else. The vice-versa is also true. If, say, my children fall in the social ladder due to their lack of enterprise or intellect, they will soon join the ranks of backward communities. Caste system is not that rigid in practice, though theoretically it is supposed to be.
The problem is, we are looking at a construct which is, say, 50-100 years old wherein the castes are by and large static and stable. But if we take a construct of, say, 2000 years, we would find several castes rechristening / reinventing themselves as different castes, intermarrying, merging, dividing, and moving in all directions.
I never heard about this "hybrid" thing with respect to Komati Settis in Andhra Pradesh. In Andhra , these are totally vegetarian and soft-spoken, though their shrewd business instincts and frugality remain intact. Most of them are dark complexioned, and fair complexion is a rarity amongst them. In fact I have a childhood friend from that community who is still waiting at 35 to marry a fair-complexioned bride. The fact that they prefix the word, "Arya" (not necessarily in the "Aryan-Dravidian" sense, but to mean, "respected," as many Brahmins used to address each other in the past) to their caste-name, show that they have some propensity to Brahminical practices. The present no.2 in Andhra Cabinet, Shri. Rosaiah, is from that community. Oddars as a caste are unfamiliar to Andhra. May be they exist in some other name there.
In lighter vein:
I guess it was a prevalent practice (and trendy) for the rich and the worldly among several castes in the past, to maintain a "Chinnaveedu" (is that the correct word in Tamil?) with women of other castes whom they can not officially marry. The women too used to fall for these men either because of the looks, or wealth, or both. But for the fact that these were not officially married to the man, the ladies used to get treated as wives for all practical purposes, and even used to keep the man's surname for their children. However, the children never enjoyed the same social status or property rights as the official wife's children.
One of my great-grandfathers had maintained a "Chinnaveedu" with a lady from Devadasi community, and had sired children with her. They kept the same surname as us, and never failed to take pride in the fact that they were "some how" related to us. For us, they were non-existent and unmentionable. In course of time, as the Devadasi tradition vanished, they too married normally, and had children.
However, the problem came in my father's generation, when one of the lady decendents from the other stock (shall I say "my father's cousin"?) became the head of the establishment (due to her academic accomplishments) in which my father was working as a subordinate. That lady was cordial, and frequently used to take my father's opinion on official matters. My father, even while being a loyal subordinate in the office, used to come home and grumble about how he is feeling "insulted" to serve under her. So much for origins!
I am sure, if the mentioned lady's children do well in their studies and earn a name for themselves, they would soon come to be accepted as Brahmins as genuine as any body else. The vice-versa is also true. If, say, my children fall in the social ladder due to their lack of enterprise or intellect, they will soon join the ranks of backward communities. Caste system is not that rigid in practice, though theoretically it is supposed to be.
The problem is, we are looking at a construct which is, say, 50-100 years old wherein the castes are by and large static and stable. But if we take a construct of, say, 2000 years, we would find several castes rechristening / reinventing themselves as different castes, intermarrying, merging, dividing, and moving in all directions.
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Aryan Invasion Theory
I am flogging a dead horse. What the heck
)
Here is another article by a qualified, reputed archealogical person trashing the myth.
http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/bbl002.html
Good reading.
Ramki
I am flogging a dead horse. What the heck
)Here is another article by a qualified, reputed archealogical person trashing the myth.
http://www.geocities.com/ifihhome/articles/bbl002.html
Good reading.
Ramki
W
whisper
Guest
Dear silverfox,
Even my friends are saying that their mother tongue is kannada. Let them speak their language and satisfied themself, not me ok.
W
whisper
Guest
Dear kaundinya,
As you ask why anti brahminism is high in tamil nadu? Here i got some detalies about it. Though anti brahminism is all over the country its fierce in tamil nadu, uttar pradesh, bihar. Because here these anti brahmins party's come to power with help off brahmins. Think Strange, here is detailes.
In Tamil Nadu,
until 1962 T.N assembly election DMK is a fringe party only. But in 1967 T.N assembly election rajaji's swatantra party oppess congress led kamaraj. Rajaji then formed an alliance with DMK. In that election his famous words to brahmins, " Hold one hand on your sacred thread and vote for DMK with your other hand( I got this informtion from one off my elders, correct me if i am wrong). By doing so rajaji endorsed what anti brahmins party say about brahmins.
In U.P and Bihar,
In UP and Bihar these anti brahmins party was a fringe party until 1989. In 1989 assembly election BJP support mulayam singh yadav(UP) and laloo prasad yadav (bihar). A.B Vajpayee(a brahmin) support them. Then congress support mayavathi(UP)1996 election and laloo prasad yadav(bihar). P.V. Narasimha rao(a brahmin) support them.
At National level,
So many brahmins like vajpayee, ramakrishna hedge and others help mr V.P Singh to be prime minister in 1989 national election. What we got "mandal commision report".
W
whisper
Guest
Dear kspv,
Are you staying in bangalore? I am also staying in bangalore. Why dont all the people in this forum staying in bangalore can talk with each other by cell and also a get together? what's your idea?
Whisper,
In the three coastal districts of Karnataka, Dakshina Kannada (Mangalore), Udupi, and Uttara Kannada, there is a strong concentration of Kannada Brahmins (the Pais, Hegdes, Bhats etc). There are very successful businessmen from these communities, particularly in vegetarian hoteleering. The other strong community in these districts is the Bunds (the Rais, Shettys etc.) who are also very good businessmen ("butter-chicken specialists") and successful bankers. But there seems to be no conflict between the two communities. For example, whenever the prominent, outspoken brahmin leader from Mangalore, Anantha Kumar (who had been a Union Minister) files his nomination for Lok Sabha, a family of Shettys always (traditionally) seconds his nomination. Both communities have traditionally been BJP supporters.
A Christian, Margaret Alva (because of her Brahmin vote bank), has recently opposed the extension of OBC reservations within the Congress Working Committee. There is a Hebbar loyalist group (don't ask me how the Hebbars have reached North-Canara) to her, which owns petrol bunks and the like in her constituency, which plays a crucial role in the elections there. While Ramakrishna Hegde was a brahmin, his vote-bank were Vokkaligas, an OBC community.
So, we can perhaps take a leaf out of their book, in learning how to co-exist, concentrate, and cultivate contacts and support. I am sure Tamil Brahmins can do it, but for the flawed anti-brahmin rhetoric and ideology that continues to be forwarded in Tamilnadu.
Regards,
kspv
In the three coastal districts of Karnataka, Dakshina Kannada (Mangalore), Udupi, and Uttara Kannada, there is a strong concentration of Kannada Brahmins (the Pais, Hegdes, Bhats etc). There are very successful businessmen from these communities, particularly in vegetarian hoteleering. The other strong community in these districts is the Bunds (the Rais, Shettys etc.) who are also very good businessmen ("butter-chicken specialists") and successful bankers. But there seems to be no conflict between the two communities. For example, whenever the prominent, outspoken brahmin leader from Mangalore, Anantha Kumar (who had been a Union Minister) files his nomination for Lok Sabha, a family of Shettys always (traditionally) seconds his nomination. Both communities have traditionally been BJP supporters.
A Christian, Margaret Alva (because of her Brahmin vote bank), has recently opposed the extension of OBC reservations within the Congress Working Committee. There is a Hebbar loyalist group (don't ask me how the Hebbars have reached North-Canara) to her, which owns petrol bunks and the like in her constituency, which plays a crucial role in the elections there. While Ramakrishna Hegde was a brahmin, his vote-bank were Vokkaligas, an OBC community.
So, we can perhaps take a leaf out of their book, in learning how to co-exist, concentrate, and cultivate contacts and support. I am sure Tamil Brahmins can do it, but for the flawed anti-brahmin rhetoric and ideology that continues to be forwarded in Tamilnadu.
Regards,
kspv
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Bangalore
I chat with my sister in Bangalore over MSN IM and told her about this site. I asked her if things are as bad for Brahmins in Karnataka. She said not at all. She said anyone who wants to get college education in Karnataka can get it in the innumerable private colleges. Karnataka pioneered the concept of private engineering and medical colleges in the 50's. Plus it has a great influx of MNC's as well and strong growth private IT companies based in India. Both put together the issue of reservation has practically no impact in Bangalore.
Plus Bangalore welcomes immigrants from all over India with open arms.
This is for the benefit of anyone who might want to consider moving to Bangalore.
SV
I chat with my sister in Bangalore over MSN IM and told her about this site. I asked her if things are as bad for Brahmins in Karnataka. She said not at all. She said anyone who wants to get college education in Karnataka can get it in the innumerable private colleges. Karnataka pioneered the concept of private engineering and medical colleges in the 50's. Plus it has a great influx of MNC's as well and strong growth private IT companies based in India. Both put together the issue of reservation has practically no impact in Bangalore.
Plus Bangalore welcomes immigrants from all over India with open arms.
This is for the benefit of anyone who might want to consider moving to Bangalore.
SV
SV sir is right once again. I grew up in Bangalore ( parents emigrated back in 70's in search of better careers ) Nothing was a problem for me in BLR - education, higher education, job, migration to US.
No wonder that a HUGE number of outsiders ( all over India ) come to BLR in search of opportunities.
Takeaway - if you know a Brahmin student who is good at studies but unable to get a seat in BE / MBBS in Tamil Nadu - ask them to move to BLR and study there. The education is not that expensive and living costs are not that much either.
In fact, I would advise Tamil Nadu Brahmin students to start preparing for the Karnataka Entrance Test right after their SSLC exams.
" Wise man dig where there is chance of water " - Old Chinese proverb
No wonder that a HUGE number of outsiders ( all over India ) come to BLR in search of opportunities.
Takeaway - if you know a Brahmin student who is good at studies but unable to get a seat in BE / MBBS in Tamil Nadu - ask them to move to BLR and study there. The education is not that expensive and living costs are not that much either.
In fact, I would advise Tamil Nadu Brahmin students to start preparing for the Karnataka Entrance Test right after their SSLC exams.
" Wise man dig where there is chance of water " - Old Chinese proverb
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SUNDA123
Guest
as is rightly said if one is unfit for any other profession, he becomes a politician and profess his venture in the garb of being a patriot. if there is a strictrue on politician to the effect that he can not enjoy wine,women and wealth majority of politicians would instantly vanish in thin air.
Some more interesting tit-bits & anecdotes about Karnataka:
Karnataka has its own "Super Swami", Sri Sri Pejawara Swamigalu of Pejawara Mutt, who is otherwise a frail looking, ever smiling swamiji. His lifestyle does not indicate anything flashy. However, immediately after the general elections or changes in government, you would find politicians of all hues queing up before him for "recommending" their names for ministerships, corporation chairmanships etc., to the high-command, and need I say it works!
Each of the eight "Paryaya Swamigalu" of the Udupi temple's Ashta Matha (who are mostly Madhvaite) too exercises tremendous influence on the society and politics in Karnataka, and so do the Dharmakartas of important temples. Once I overheard a conversation between a senior government officer in Karnataka and his subordinate. The senior officer wanted the Dharmakarta of Dharmasthala temple (=Manjunatha being the presiding diety), Sri Viren Hegde, to be arrested on some pretext. The subordinate bluntly refused saying, "...sir, if you arrest him, there will be riots in Mangalore..." Incidentally, Dharmastala is a sacred place for Lingayats, a powerful community, and they won't sit tight if something happens to Viren Hegde. This is also the man who feeds 15,000 people every day free of cost in the temple, runs several educational institutions and charity missions and so on. The donations to his trust seem to trickle-in incessantly.
It is also very interesting, that the answer amongst different communities of Karnataka to the seggregation practiced by the Brahmins of the bygone era, was not the total rejection of Brahminism. Rather, they came up with their own versions of it. Thus, Lingayats have their own Mutts and Swamijis (and their own brand of vegetarianism). The Vokkaligas (Vokka= areca nut - these have traditionally been the areca-nut farmers), and the Kurubas (=goat hearders) too have their own Mutts and Swamijis, and so do some S.C. communities. Perhaps their urge for importance within the religious sphere got satisfied this way, and they no longer remain overtly anti-brahmin.
Ofcourse, Vattal Nagaraj tried his best to make a career out of imitating Tamilnadu's leaders by wearing black-goggles and fur-hat, and speaking against Brahmins, but he has more entertainment value than any real political weight.
An interesting ceremony takes place in the ancient Kukke Subramanya temple in western ghats. The temple brahmin family (the "Achars") consume their food after the pooja sitting cross-legged in the pradakshina-mandapam around the sanctum-sanctorum. After eating, they leave the uncleaned plantan-leaves there. The devotees who want to express their gratitude to the God actually roll themselves around the sanctum-sanctorum on the food left-over by the Achars. I was horrified to see it for the first time (I myself would never have done it), but now more accustomed to the sight after a few visits. People in Karnataka are definitely more pious than those in many other states (including my home-state).
The only place where you will perhaps find serious anti-brahmin rhetoric is the now defunct Kolar Gold Fields, where a number of converted christians from the scheduled communities of Tamilnadu exist. Most of them live in appalling conditions. Unemployment and crime is rampant, and the place is also the source for rowdies, contract-killers etc., in Bangalore. For example, there was the story of this family from KGF in the newspapers in 2002, wherein the father and his five sons were all killed in police-encounters at different points of time. Entire families are into crime here. It is said that they are ready to do a murder for a bottle of arrack and a kilo beef. A friend of mine is trying to get a scheme approved from the Government, through which some kind of alternative livelihood can be provided to them, so that they can be weaned away from crime.
Karnataka has its own "Super Swami", Sri Sri Pejawara Swamigalu of Pejawara Mutt, who is otherwise a frail looking, ever smiling swamiji. His lifestyle does not indicate anything flashy. However, immediately after the general elections or changes in government, you would find politicians of all hues queing up before him for "recommending" their names for ministerships, corporation chairmanships etc., to the high-command, and need I say it works!
Each of the eight "Paryaya Swamigalu" of the Udupi temple's Ashta Matha (who are mostly Madhvaite) too exercises tremendous influence on the society and politics in Karnataka, and so do the Dharmakartas of important temples. Once I overheard a conversation between a senior government officer in Karnataka and his subordinate. The senior officer wanted the Dharmakarta of Dharmasthala temple (=Manjunatha being the presiding diety), Sri Viren Hegde, to be arrested on some pretext. The subordinate bluntly refused saying, "...sir, if you arrest him, there will be riots in Mangalore..." Incidentally, Dharmastala is a sacred place for Lingayats, a powerful community, and they won't sit tight if something happens to Viren Hegde. This is also the man who feeds 15,000 people every day free of cost in the temple, runs several educational institutions and charity missions and so on. The donations to his trust seem to trickle-in incessantly.
It is also very interesting, that the answer amongst different communities of Karnataka to the seggregation practiced by the Brahmins of the bygone era, was not the total rejection of Brahminism. Rather, they came up with their own versions of it. Thus, Lingayats have their own Mutts and Swamijis (and their own brand of vegetarianism). The Vokkaligas (Vokka= areca nut - these have traditionally been the areca-nut farmers), and the Kurubas (=goat hearders) too have their own Mutts and Swamijis, and so do some S.C. communities. Perhaps their urge for importance within the religious sphere got satisfied this way, and they no longer remain overtly anti-brahmin.
Ofcourse, Vattal Nagaraj tried his best to make a career out of imitating Tamilnadu's leaders by wearing black-goggles and fur-hat, and speaking against Brahmins, but he has more entertainment value than any real political weight.
An interesting ceremony takes place in the ancient Kukke Subramanya temple in western ghats. The temple brahmin family (the "Achars") consume their food after the pooja sitting cross-legged in the pradakshina-mandapam around the sanctum-sanctorum. After eating, they leave the uncleaned plantan-leaves there. The devotees who want to express their gratitude to the God actually roll themselves around the sanctum-sanctorum on the food left-over by the Achars. I was horrified to see it for the first time (I myself would never have done it), but now more accustomed to the sight after a few visits. People in Karnataka are definitely more pious than those in many other states (including my home-state).
The only place where you will perhaps find serious anti-brahmin rhetoric is the now defunct Kolar Gold Fields, where a number of converted christians from the scheduled communities of Tamilnadu exist. Most of them live in appalling conditions. Unemployment and crime is rampant, and the place is also the source for rowdies, contract-killers etc., in Bangalore. For example, there was the story of this family from KGF in the newspapers in 2002, wherein the father and his five sons were all killed in police-encounters at different points of time. Entire families are into crime here. It is said that they are ready to do a murder for a bottle of arrack and a kilo beef. A friend of mine is trying to get a scheme approved from the Government, through which some kind of alternative livelihood can be provided to them, so that they can be weaned away from crime.
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KAUNDINYA
Guest
Can anyone enlighten me as to which community former CM JAYALALITHA belongs, Hebbar or Mandyam? Another interesting thing is that a Thulu-speaking Madhwa Brahmin community of Karnataka also has the surname HEBBAR.
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KAUNDINYA
Guest
DEAR MR.KSPV, I learn that Virendra Hegde of Dharmasthala is a JAIN although he is the dharmakarta of Sri Manjunatha Temple. It is mentioned in Sri Raghavendra Swami's biography that the Lingayats used to harass the Madhwa Brahmins & Sri Raghavendra protected the Madhwas with the help of his psychic powers.
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KAUNDINYA
Guest
In Bihar & U.p. There Is Opposition To All Forward Castes
In U.P. & Bihar, there is opposition to all the forwrd communities like Brahmins, Rajputs, Bhumihars, Kaayasthas (northern counterparts of the KANAKKARS OR KARUNEEGARS of Tamil Nadu) & Aggarwals. For example, the slogan of the BSP of Kanshiram & Mayawati used to be "TILAK, TARAZU AUR TALWAR- MAARO INKO JOOTE CHAR" which means,"Tilak-wearing Brahmins, Tarazu(balance) holding Vaisyas & Talwar (sword)-wielding Kshatriyas : Beat them all with shoes". So, in the North, Brahmins are not the only victims. But of late Mayawati has been wooing uppercaste people for the sake of votes. For example, some months ago she held a "Brahmin Conference"!!!
Of course two Hindi magazines, namely SARITA & MUKTA, published by the same publisher, have been carrying on anti-Brahmin propaganda for decades but they have no effect on the general public.
:rain: :wave:
In U.P. & Bihar, there is opposition to all the forwrd communities like Brahmins, Rajputs, Bhumihars, Kaayasthas (northern counterparts of the KANAKKARS OR KARUNEEGARS of Tamil Nadu) & Aggarwals. For example, the slogan of the BSP of Kanshiram & Mayawati used to be "TILAK, TARAZU AUR TALWAR- MAARO INKO JOOTE CHAR" which means,"Tilak-wearing Brahmins, Tarazu(balance) holding Vaisyas & Talwar (sword)-wielding Kshatriyas : Beat them all with shoes". So, in the North, Brahmins are not the only victims. But of late Mayawati has been wooing uppercaste people for the sake of votes. For example, some months ago she held a "Brahmin Conference"!!!
Of course two Hindi magazines, namely SARITA & MUKTA, published by the same publisher, have been carrying on anti-Brahmin propaganda for decades but they have no effect on the general public.
:rain: :wave:
Kaundinya,
You are correct about Viren Hegde. I learn that Dharmasthala has a very peculiar tradition, which one will not find anywhere else in India. Here is a link that describes what is it about:
http://www.shridharmasthala.org/Pages/Bahubali.htm
The Hegde of Dharmasthala is actually a quasi-judicial authority, delivering judgements in Civil disputes. As to how this institution works, the following link explains it in detail:
http://www.shridharmasthala.org/Pages/Heggades.htm
The titles of Aarvela Niyogi Brahmins of Andhra such as "Yella Pregada" are ultimately linked to Heggades and Pergades of Karnataka. So how do we describe Viren Hegde? A Jain-Brahmin, Brahmin-Jain, or it does not matter?
Regarding Tulu Brahmins having the title "Hebbar," a scholar on that subject discusses the issue in detail here:
http://www.boloji.com/places/0019a.htm
Please note the paragraph in the above article which says,
"...It is also interesting to note that Neria, Gangamula and Kalasa Hebbars perhaps originally belonged to the Panchagramis. Sri Ramanuja moved to Melukote in Karnataka to escape from the relentless hector of Shaivite Chola kings. He was welcomed by the Hoysala raja and was given asylum. Sri Ramanuja’s followers, the Hebbars, who originally hailed from Srirangam and Kanchipuram, followed him to Karnataka. Then they settled in five of the following districts: Kadaba, Grama, Srirangapattana, Muloor and Belur. Hence they came to be known as Panchagramis. In the year 1515, Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagara bestowed vast lands to some of the Hebbars. The three families of Hebbars in Gangamula, Kalasa and Neria, who were beneficiaries of Vijayanagara Empire, are still in existence. However, some Hebbars (e.g. Hebbars from Neria) converted from the Sri Vaishnava sect of Ramanujacharya to the Dvaita teachings of Madhvacharya at a later date. They joined the Sode Matt of Udupi during the time of Sri Vadiraja Swami. They now are considered Shivalli Brahmins. The other two Hebbar families of Gangamula and Kalasa joined the Sringeri Matt of Sri Shankaracharya..."
Relocation can satisfactorily explain as to why some Hebbars speak Tamil, some corrupted Tamil, some Kannada, and some Tulu. It is probably a function of how far north they have moved from Tamilnadu.
You are correct about Viren Hegde. I learn that Dharmasthala has a very peculiar tradition, which one will not find anywhere else in India. Here is a link that describes what is it about:
http://www.shridharmasthala.org/Pages/Bahubali.htm
The Hegde of Dharmasthala is actually a quasi-judicial authority, delivering judgements in Civil disputes. As to how this institution works, the following link explains it in detail:
http://www.shridharmasthala.org/Pages/Heggades.htm
The titles of Aarvela Niyogi Brahmins of Andhra such as "Yella Pregada" are ultimately linked to Heggades and Pergades of Karnataka. So how do we describe Viren Hegde? A Jain-Brahmin, Brahmin-Jain, or it does not matter?
Regarding Tulu Brahmins having the title "Hebbar," a scholar on that subject discusses the issue in detail here:
http://www.boloji.com/places/0019a.htm
Please note the paragraph in the above article which says,
"...It is also interesting to note that Neria, Gangamula and Kalasa Hebbars perhaps originally belonged to the Panchagramis. Sri Ramanuja moved to Melukote in Karnataka to escape from the relentless hector of Shaivite Chola kings. He was welcomed by the Hoysala raja and was given asylum. Sri Ramanuja’s followers, the Hebbars, who originally hailed from Srirangam and Kanchipuram, followed him to Karnataka. Then they settled in five of the following districts: Kadaba, Grama, Srirangapattana, Muloor and Belur. Hence they came to be known as Panchagramis. In the year 1515, Krishnadevaraya of Vijayanagara bestowed vast lands to some of the Hebbars. The three families of Hebbars in Gangamula, Kalasa and Neria, who were beneficiaries of Vijayanagara Empire, are still in existence. However, some Hebbars (e.g. Hebbars from Neria) converted from the Sri Vaishnava sect of Ramanujacharya to the Dvaita teachings of Madhvacharya at a later date. They joined the Sode Matt of Udupi during the time of Sri Vadiraja Swami. They now are considered Shivalli Brahmins. The other two Hebbar families of Gangamula and Kalasa joined the Sringeri Matt of Sri Shankaracharya..."
Relocation can satisfactorily explain as to why some Hebbars speak Tamil, some corrupted Tamil, some Kannada, and some Tulu. It is probably a function of how far north they have moved from Tamilnadu.
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Surname Hebbar
No person having the surname Hebbar is a Hebbar Iyengar!!! So please don't confuse the two.
SV
No person having the surname Hebbar is a Hebbar Iyengar!!! So please don't confuse the two.
SV
K
kchandra
Guest
Gossip?
Dear members of this forum ,
Before I start I would like say that I am a Kamma from Andhra by birth. Sociology and ethnology are some areas that I specialise in , so it is my habit to read forums like this ( among other forums ) as these give a idea of the different perspectives of different communities. I have refrained from posting any articles in this forum as I just wanted to observe and see the perspectives from a tamilbrahmin point of view. But a couple of articles posted here about my caste sometime back made be decide to reply to those posts.
I strongly disagree with what has kspv to say about the origin of Kammas. He quotes "historians of kammas", I would be more than happy to know who these kamma historians are so perhaps they could throw light on my caste history. It is hard to believe that a caste as conservative as brahmins will freely sleep with women of other castes(it is possible some individual brahmins did it, but not the entire caste, especially given that brahmins did not even touch many castes in the past). Assuming this is true, it does not explain how this process could father another caste ( like kammas) ( which forms 3-4 % of the state population ). And it certainly does not explain how kammas hold so much of land and are associated with some ruling clans of guntur ( like the raja of amaravathi , many nayak cheiftains of vijayanagar etc ). He claims that Kammas did not have a respectable position in society. It is a mystery to me suddenly why it was after world war 2 that all other castes started respecting kamma caste, ( may be they all got hit in the head collectively at a time, that lead to their change of heart!).
It appears kspv is apparently quoting MN Srinivas in his attempts on writing about MN Srinivas. It is possible MN Srinivas did a lot of research and is well respected, but for every theory put forward by MN Srinivas there are opposing theories put forward by other researchers of equal repute. So who to quote and whom to believe becomes a personal opinion. So quoting MN Srinivas does not automatically confer credibility to any point of view.
Though there is some truth in the fact that kammas wanted the right to perform vedic rites and wanted to sanskritize, it is not true that other castes did not attempt this in Andhra. In fact, with few exceptions, Brahmins in Andhra had objections to almost any other caste practicing vedic rites. This even includes Arya Vysya's ( who kspv claims follow brahminical practices ). They had issues with performing vedic rites. In fact in 1815 the Vysya scholar Mamidi Venkaiah (l764-1834) , amidst great opposition (from brahmins) performed vedic rites for his children. It is just that Arya Vysya started following brahminical practices a little earlier that kammas.
To me his views on Kammas and views on some other castes like Reddis appear to be personal opinions, perhaps possibly influenced by his political leanings. ( It is common knowledge that brahmins are traditionally associated with congress and TDP has initiated some measures that were not in the interests of brahmins. So many telugu brahmins see congress as friendly to them. And since Reddies are virtually in control of congress, it is natural they feel grateful to them) To me the stuff that he has posted appears to be of office (housewife) gossip quality.
If i were to take a guess as to why he would write something like this, may be it is beacause of brahminical tendency ( atleast a few brahmins ) to claim a caste's some connection to Brahmins , whenever any caste becomes successful. That way, the success is naturally explained by Brahmin connection. Otherwise how can they be successful? right.
(Sentence deleted by Ramki as it is against forum rules)
I saw a similar article about Komatis of Andhra, being of mixed caste origin (by Kaudinya). My reaction to that article is also similar, it serves no purpose to dig into the history of any caste. Certainly it is not going to benefit Tamilbrahmins, other than making this website appear like a full time gossip site.
In the article about Komatis, kspv is even suggesting that "fair skin is rare among them" and so they may not be associated with brahmins. Not sure if this is indicative of his deep seated biases and ideas in him that equate brahmins with FAIR skin and the moment you see fair skin in other castes, they have to be associated with brahmins somehow!. Have you travelled to north?. Do you know that a lot of non brahmin castes in Kerala and Karnataka are very very fair?. May be you think they all must have originated from brahmins as well. Oh boy now I should know , whenever i see
a non-brahmin who is fair I should immediately suspect that he must have had some brahmin
connection or his ancestors slept with Brahmins!. What an eye opener, I am glad I got enlightened, time to pop open a beer bottle and celebrate!.
All this gossip reminds me of an incident several years ago , while studying. When I struck up a conversation with a fellow non-brahmin tamil classmate, the topic moved to Iyengars for some reason. He claimed that some sections of Iyengars (dont kno which sect) are very fair because they let their women folk SLEEP with the english men and also that is how they inherited some of the industrial houses left by the English. To me, this was a shock, and obviously wrong. I refused to believe this and I chastised him right there not to speak ill of any caste. And i also explained to him a lot of Indians are fair skinned, perhaps these Iyengars came from north or from west coast where people are fair. He then even told me that I am brahmin pretending to be a non-brahman because i am taking their side.
(Paragraph deleted by Ramki as it is against forum rules)
One more thing, mind you there are several abusive anti-brahmin (especially against tamil brahmins) articles doing rounds in many other other non-brahmin forums. Not sure how the reaction will be if tamil brahmins see them.
My suggestion to the learned members of this forum would be , to observe a self-imposed restraint in posting controversial articles, or half truths or abusive language. If more articles like this appear, it might erode the image of this website as a place for dispassionate forum for the benefit of brahmins. Some of the articles ( in fact many ) posted here sometimes makes me wonder may be they are worthy of a website like www.tamilbrahminsgossip.com. Mind you , a lot of non-brahmins are also reading forums like this. if they had any wrong stereotypes about brahmins, some of the articles posted here would only reinforce those stereotypes and definitely make them hate brahmins even more.
I am not suggesting these posts be removed ( I swear by Voltaire who said "I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." ) But I have a right to reply to those articles. The reason i am replying to those articles is also to not leave those half true articles unanswered. Otherwise there is a danger that they might be taken literally.
Kaudinya, from your posts it appears you seem to have an abnormal interest in knowing the caste of almost all the public figures in India, be it vatal nagaraj, Periyar, karunanidhi etc. Does that serve any high purpose? I am just curious.
I sincerely appreciate the members and administrator of this forum for giving me the opportunity to put forth my views, even though they are not really related to Tamil Brahmins.
I hope i have not offended any community. If i did my apologies.
And If anybody disagrees with my views above, I will be very very happy to hear any opposing views!.
- Indian
Dear members of this forum ,
Before I start I would like say that I am a Kamma from Andhra by birth. Sociology and ethnology are some areas that I specialise in , so it is my habit to read forums like this ( among other forums ) as these give a idea of the different perspectives of different communities. I have refrained from posting any articles in this forum as I just wanted to observe and see the perspectives from a tamilbrahmin point of view. But a couple of articles posted here about my caste sometime back made be decide to reply to those posts.
I strongly disagree with what has kspv to say about the origin of Kammas. He quotes "historians of kammas", I would be more than happy to know who these kamma historians are so perhaps they could throw light on my caste history. It is hard to believe that a caste as conservative as brahmins will freely sleep with women of other castes(it is possible some individual brahmins did it, but not the entire caste, especially given that brahmins did not even touch many castes in the past). Assuming this is true, it does not explain how this process could father another caste ( like kammas) ( which forms 3-4 % of the state population ). And it certainly does not explain how kammas hold so much of land and are associated with some ruling clans of guntur ( like the raja of amaravathi , many nayak cheiftains of vijayanagar etc ). He claims that Kammas did not have a respectable position in society. It is a mystery to me suddenly why it was after world war 2 that all other castes started respecting kamma caste, ( may be they all got hit in the head collectively at a time, that lead to their change of heart!).
It appears kspv is apparently quoting MN Srinivas in his attempts on writing about MN Srinivas. It is possible MN Srinivas did a lot of research and is well respected, but for every theory put forward by MN Srinivas there are opposing theories put forward by other researchers of equal repute. So who to quote and whom to believe becomes a personal opinion. So quoting MN Srinivas does not automatically confer credibility to any point of view.
Though there is some truth in the fact that kammas wanted the right to perform vedic rites and wanted to sanskritize, it is not true that other castes did not attempt this in Andhra. In fact, with few exceptions, Brahmins in Andhra had objections to almost any other caste practicing vedic rites. This even includes Arya Vysya's ( who kspv claims follow brahminical practices ). They had issues with performing vedic rites. In fact in 1815 the Vysya scholar Mamidi Venkaiah (l764-1834) , amidst great opposition (from brahmins) performed vedic rites for his children. It is just that Arya Vysya started following brahminical practices a little earlier that kammas.
To me his views on Kammas and views on some other castes like Reddis appear to be personal opinions, perhaps possibly influenced by his political leanings. ( It is common knowledge that brahmins are traditionally associated with congress and TDP has initiated some measures that were not in the interests of brahmins. So many telugu brahmins see congress as friendly to them. And since Reddies are virtually in control of congress, it is natural they feel grateful to them) To me the stuff that he has posted appears to be of office (housewife) gossip quality.
If i were to take a guess as to why he would write something like this, may be it is beacause of brahminical tendency ( atleast a few brahmins ) to claim a caste's some connection to Brahmins , whenever any caste becomes successful. That way, the success is naturally explained by Brahmin connection. Otherwise how can they be successful? right.
(Sentence deleted by Ramki as it is against forum rules)
I saw a similar article about Komatis of Andhra, being of mixed caste origin (by Kaudinya). My reaction to that article is also similar, it serves no purpose to dig into the history of any caste. Certainly it is not going to benefit Tamilbrahmins, other than making this website appear like a full time gossip site.
In the article about Komatis, kspv is even suggesting that "fair skin is rare among them" and so they may not be associated with brahmins. Not sure if this is indicative of his deep seated biases and ideas in him that equate brahmins with FAIR skin and the moment you see fair skin in other castes, they have to be associated with brahmins somehow!. Have you travelled to north?. Do you know that a lot of non brahmin castes in Kerala and Karnataka are very very fair?. May be you think they all must have originated from brahmins as well. Oh boy now I should know , whenever i see
a non-brahmin who is fair I should immediately suspect that he must have had some brahmin
connection or his ancestors slept with Brahmins!. What an eye opener, I am glad I got enlightened, time to pop open a beer bottle and celebrate!.
All this gossip reminds me of an incident several years ago , while studying. When I struck up a conversation with a fellow non-brahmin tamil classmate, the topic moved to Iyengars for some reason. He claimed that some sections of Iyengars (dont kno which sect) are very fair because they let their women folk SLEEP with the english men and also that is how they inherited some of the industrial houses left by the English. To me, this was a shock, and obviously wrong. I refused to believe this and I chastised him right there not to speak ill of any caste. And i also explained to him a lot of Indians are fair skinned, perhaps these Iyengars came from north or from west coast where people are fair. He then even told me that I am brahmin pretending to be a non-brahman because i am taking their side.
(Paragraph deleted by Ramki as it is against forum rules)
One more thing, mind you there are several abusive anti-brahmin (especially against tamil brahmins) articles doing rounds in many other other non-brahmin forums. Not sure how the reaction will be if tamil brahmins see them.
My suggestion to the learned members of this forum would be , to observe a self-imposed restraint in posting controversial articles, or half truths or abusive language. If more articles like this appear, it might erode the image of this website as a place for dispassionate forum for the benefit of brahmins. Some of the articles ( in fact many ) posted here sometimes makes me wonder may be they are worthy of a website like www.tamilbrahminsgossip.com. Mind you , a lot of non-brahmins are also reading forums like this. if they had any wrong stereotypes about brahmins, some of the articles posted here would only reinforce those stereotypes and definitely make them hate brahmins even more.
I am not suggesting these posts be removed ( I swear by Voltaire who said "I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." ) But I have a right to reply to those articles. The reason i am replying to those articles is also to not leave those half true articles unanswered. Otherwise there is a danger that they might be taken literally.
Kaudinya, from your posts it appears you seem to have an abnormal interest in knowing the caste of almost all the public figures in India, be it vatal nagaraj, Periyar, karunanidhi etc. Does that serve any high purpose? I am just curious.
I sincerely appreciate the members and administrator of this forum for giving me the opportunity to put forth my views, even though they are not really related to Tamil Brahmins.
I hope i have not offended any community. If i did my apologies.
And If anybody disagrees with my views above, I will be very very happy to hear any opposing views!.
- Indian
Last edited by a moderator:
Guys, these kinds of discussions cannot lead to anything fruitful for any of us. I kindly request all honorable members to focus on matters that will result in all communities moving forward, resulting in our nation moving forward.
Divisive discourses and discussions will lead to derision and destructive directions - excuse my impromptu attempt at rhyming verse :typing:
Divisive discourses and discussions will lead to derision and destructive directions - excuse my impromptu attempt at rhyming verse :typing:
Heart-burn that was unwarranted
K.Chandra / Indian,
My heart-felt apologies for hurting your feelings by delving into the origins of communities. I am not against any caste, including Kammas, my interest in going into the origins being academic. One of the sources for my information is the following:
http://indculture0.tripod.com/kammas.htm
Kindly go through the paragraphs that surmise on the roots of Kammas, and the one on Gangeya Sahni. I do agree that these can only be surmises, because no body knows what happened centuries back but for the things well documented. I will list out few other sources too, both textual, and those on the internet ; just give me sometime to compile them. Your point on Dr. M.N. Srinivas too is well taken. There could be equally brilliant counter-theories to his.
One theory is that Kammas are descendents of Nayakas, and so have an older origin as a community. However, there are disagreements on whether Nayakas are Kammas or otherwise. The caste-name, "Kamma" itself is not found in any literature older than 150 years (if you do know of sources, please let me know. I would like to go through). That is not to deny the fact that they are highly enterprising, bold, and have etched a progressive reputation for their community in history by the virtue of their sheer hardwork, but such a reputation came only after World War-II. If you remember, agricultural revolution in India resulting in affluency amongst certain communities (Jats & Jat-Sikhs in Punjab & Haryana, Kammas in Andhra etc.) happened only after World War-II & Independence.
About Kamma kingdoms in Guntur district, except for few large estates owned by the some members of the caste, there is no evidence anywhere of a Kamma "kingdom" with paraphernalia such as independent army, coinage etc., which would have qualified them as "Rajas" (as you say), not withstanding the fact that Kammas would like to call themselves "Kakathiyas" (this topic has been comprehensively dealth with in the above link). There is another theory that Kammas and Velamas were from the same caste, and those who supported Brahama Naidu of Palnadu became Padma Nayakas (Velamas) and those supported Nagamma stayed Kammas. In fact, many Velamas and Kammas share same family names and Gothras. Some Reddys as well share the Gothra and family names. So, as you can see, view points can differ.
You probably missed out my postings where I had mentioned that I do not believe that Brahmins are genetically a distinct community (which has been supported by DNA analysis), and argued that different people in different times have taken up the so called Brahminism, each having their own version of it. Just to keep the record straight, there are many Brahmin communities whose origins are perhaps mixed. As for caste-admixture in the medieval societies, I believe this was very much in existence, and in some cases was formalized to perfection. In case you want examples, just look into the Tharavad /Sambandham System of the Nairs, or the Aaliya Santhanam System of the Bunds. By the way, wasn't the Devadasi System very prevalent in Andhra till recently? The topic that whether Brahmins and Kammas share some common genetic traits stirred lot of interest (and not my invention), and infact specific DNA analyses were performed to look into this. You can have a look at the results here:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/110522774/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
I may also call for your attention towards the theories of Race Formation oft quoted in Anthropology, where the two main contributors to race formation are reckoned as war (wherein after each conquest, forced admixture between the victor and the vanquished used to take place), and admixture through other formal & informal means. This is an undeniable historical fact. The Moplahs of Malabar, some of whom follow hardcore Islam today, were few centuries back Nairs or Brahmins who were forcibly converted, and subsequently intermingled with Arab traders visting the west-coast. A significant percent of Goan Catholics are also the result of proselytization, conversion, and forced admixture with the Portuguese, and the communities that were subjected to this included Saraswat Brahmins. Similarly, there are Navayats in Bhatkal (North Canara District), who are Jain-Muslims, and these Jains inturn were converts from Bunds, Brahmins, and several other communities. By the way, have you gone into the literature that says that Nairs of Kerala, Bunds of Karnataka, and Nattars of Tamilnadu, originate from the same Nayaka stock, which the Kammas claim they are from?
So in the end, does it all look very casteist (unless you have a very bloated mental image of your community, and assume that they are the "purest" genetic stock in some way)?
Simlarly, my statement that fair-complexion amongst Arya Vysas is a rarity, is a mere statement of fact, something that you can verify by enquriring from the people of that very community. I am aware that fair & dark people exist in all communities in India, but the percentage of occurrence of each is not the same amongst all communities. To attribute racist intentions to me for stating the same, amounts to reading too much into it. Did I say they were in someway inferior? Nope.
You claim yourself as having an interest in Sociology and Ethnology. Isn't it common amongst Anthropologists to look at communities by their physical characteristics, and describe their physiognomy by mentioning the colour of the skin, eye-colour, width of the face (Brachycephaly), colour of the hair, body-hair distribution, width of the nose, thickness of lips, protrusion of teeth-line (Prognathous-Orthognathous), stature & body shape including the length of legs (of both men & women) etc.? Do you automatically say that they all have "malicious" intentions? Noting that there are differences interms of any of these features between communities, is a very different thing than passing any judgement.
Have I toured north? Yes, quite comprehensively : not just north, but west, east and north-east too, and have an interest in the origins of different inhabitants of these regions as well (seen Mongoloid Brahmins who vouch that they originated from Kashi). Is it wrong to have this interest (should only Ethnologists have it)? I don't think so!
Your right to contradict and criticize my views is well respected (including calling my views as "house-wife gossip"). But to attack me personally by attributing motives to me is not welcome. Quote from sources, and prove that:
1.) There has not been any admixture amongst castes, in Andhra or elsewhere.
2.) That the cast, by name "Kamma," existed historically in medieval times (do not whimsically trace your origins from Kakathiyas or some other "kingdom". That will be like a Brahmin tracing his origins from Parashurama or some other historically non-verifiable identity).
Any way, this web-forum is about Tamil Brahmins, and so if we get into a diatribe here about communities of Andhra, it would not be proper. Therefore you can e-mail me personally if you wish, and we will continue our discussion through emails.
Best wishes,
kspv.
Vaylan,
This discussion of "origins" arose because the question posed was whether Tamil Brahmins are Tamilians or not? If you remember, I responded by saying that they are, as long as they speak Tamil, and "origins" (which are subject to debate) do not matter. I also said despite the languages we speak, and places we live in there is always some element of migration and admixture in all communities.
Does that sound very casteist?
K.Chandra / Indian,
My heart-felt apologies for hurting your feelings by delving into the origins of communities. I am not against any caste, including Kammas, my interest in going into the origins being academic. One of the sources for my information is the following:
http://indculture0.tripod.com/kammas.htm
Kindly go through the paragraphs that surmise on the roots of Kammas, and the one on Gangeya Sahni. I do agree that these can only be surmises, because no body knows what happened centuries back but for the things well documented. I will list out few other sources too, both textual, and those on the internet ; just give me sometime to compile them. Your point on Dr. M.N. Srinivas too is well taken. There could be equally brilliant counter-theories to his.
One theory is that Kammas are descendents of Nayakas, and so have an older origin as a community. However, there are disagreements on whether Nayakas are Kammas or otherwise. The caste-name, "Kamma" itself is not found in any literature older than 150 years (if you do know of sources, please let me know. I would like to go through). That is not to deny the fact that they are highly enterprising, bold, and have etched a progressive reputation for their community in history by the virtue of their sheer hardwork, but such a reputation came only after World War-II. If you remember, agricultural revolution in India resulting in affluency amongst certain communities (Jats & Jat-Sikhs in Punjab & Haryana, Kammas in Andhra etc.) happened only after World War-II & Independence.
About Kamma kingdoms in Guntur district, except for few large estates owned by the some members of the caste, there is no evidence anywhere of a Kamma "kingdom" with paraphernalia such as independent army, coinage etc., which would have qualified them as "Rajas" (as you say), not withstanding the fact that Kammas would like to call themselves "Kakathiyas" (this topic has been comprehensively dealth with in the above link). There is another theory that Kammas and Velamas were from the same caste, and those who supported Brahama Naidu of Palnadu became Padma Nayakas (Velamas) and those supported Nagamma stayed Kammas. In fact, many Velamas and Kammas share same family names and Gothras. Some Reddys as well share the Gothra and family names. So, as you can see, view points can differ.
You probably missed out my postings where I had mentioned that I do not believe that Brahmins are genetically a distinct community (which has been supported by DNA analysis), and argued that different people in different times have taken up the so called Brahminism, each having their own version of it. Just to keep the record straight, there are many Brahmin communities whose origins are perhaps mixed. As for caste-admixture in the medieval societies, I believe this was very much in existence, and in some cases was formalized to perfection. In case you want examples, just look into the Tharavad /Sambandham System of the Nairs, or the Aaliya Santhanam System of the Bunds. By the way, wasn't the Devadasi System very prevalent in Andhra till recently? The topic that whether Brahmins and Kammas share some common genetic traits stirred lot of interest (and not my invention), and infact specific DNA analyses were performed to look into this. You can have a look at the results here:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/110522774/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
I may also call for your attention towards the theories of Race Formation oft quoted in Anthropology, where the two main contributors to race formation are reckoned as war (wherein after each conquest, forced admixture between the victor and the vanquished used to take place), and admixture through other formal & informal means. This is an undeniable historical fact. The Moplahs of Malabar, some of whom follow hardcore Islam today, were few centuries back Nairs or Brahmins who were forcibly converted, and subsequently intermingled with Arab traders visting the west-coast. A significant percent of Goan Catholics are also the result of proselytization, conversion, and forced admixture with the Portuguese, and the communities that were subjected to this included Saraswat Brahmins. Similarly, there are Navayats in Bhatkal (North Canara District), who are Jain-Muslims, and these Jains inturn were converts from Bunds, Brahmins, and several other communities. By the way, have you gone into the literature that says that Nairs of Kerala, Bunds of Karnataka, and Nattars of Tamilnadu, originate from the same Nayaka stock, which the Kammas claim they are from?
So in the end, does it all look very casteist (unless you have a very bloated mental image of your community, and assume that they are the "purest" genetic stock in some way)?
Simlarly, my statement that fair-complexion amongst Arya Vysas is a rarity, is a mere statement of fact, something that you can verify by enquriring from the people of that very community. I am aware that fair & dark people exist in all communities in India, but the percentage of occurrence of each is not the same amongst all communities. To attribute racist intentions to me for stating the same, amounts to reading too much into it. Did I say they were in someway inferior? Nope.
You claim yourself as having an interest in Sociology and Ethnology. Isn't it common amongst Anthropologists to look at communities by their physical characteristics, and describe their physiognomy by mentioning the colour of the skin, eye-colour, width of the face (Brachycephaly), colour of the hair, body-hair distribution, width of the nose, thickness of lips, protrusion of teeth-line (Prognathous-Orthognathous), stature & body shape including the length of legs (of both men & women) etc.? Do you automatically say that they all have "malicious" intentions? Noting that there are differences interms of any of these features between communities, is a very different thing than passing any judgement.
Have I toured north? Yes, quite comprehensively : not just north, but west, east and north-east too, and have an interest in the origins of different inhabitants of these regions as well (seen Mongoloid Brahmins who vouch that they originated from Kashi). Is it wrong to have this interest (should only Ethnologists have it)? I don't think so!
Your right to contradict and criticize my views is well respected (including calling my views as "house-wife gossip"). But to attack me personally by attributing motives to me is not welcome. Quote from sources, and prove that:
1.) There has not been any admixture amongst castes, in Andhra or elsewhere.
2.) That the cast, by name "Kamma," existed historically in medieval times (do not whimsically trace your origins from Kakathiyas or some other "kingdom". That will be like a Brahmin tracing his origins from Parashurama or some other historically non-verifiable identity).
Any way, this web-forum is about Tamil Brahmins, and so if we get into a diatribe here about communities of Andhra, it would not be proper. Therefore you can e-mail me personally if you wish, and we will continue our discussion through emails.
Best wishes,
kspv.
Vaylan,
This discussion of "origins" arose because the question posed was whether Tamil Brahmins are Tamilians or not? If you remember, I responded by saying that they are, as long as they speak Tamil, and "origins" (which are subject to debate) do not matter. I also said despite the languages we speak, and places we live in there is always some element of migration and admixture in all communities.
Does that sound very casteist?
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hariharan1972
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DMK yedirpadhu Brahmaneeyathai Karunanidhi villakkam
http://www.dinakaran.com/daily/2006/nov/20/tamil.asp
"Naano yen thalaimayil iyangum DMK vo, tamizhukku, tamizharukku makkal urimaigalukku madippalikkum yendha thanippatta barpanaraiyum (brahmin) idhu varai veruthadhillai. iniyum veruppadhumillai"
http://www.dinakaran.com/daily/2006/nov/20/tamil.asp
"Naano yen thalaimayil iyangum DMK vo, tamizhukku, tamizharukku makkal urimaigalukku madippalikkum yendha thanippatta barpanaraiyum (brahmin) idhu varai veruthadhillai. iniyum veruppadhumillai"
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