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Are Not Tamil Brahmins Tamilians ?

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kspv[So they brought Apasthambha (who wrote Apasthambha Smriti as opposed to Manusmrithi, which many South Indian Brahmins follow even today) and his associates from Kashi, and also a few Brahmins from the present day north Kanara District of Karnataka, and settled them in Andhra.]

Thank you, kspv, for your observations! Hey! Now I know one of the possible reasons for my ancestors to move from Kasi (Kashi or Varanasi) to all the way down to Thanjavur (Swamimalai) about 200 years ago!
Our family is always called "the house of Kasi"; my grandparents would use Hindi words so we wouldn't understand!!
Can somebody explain, in plain terms, the Apasthambha smrithi and Manusmrithi? Thanks!
 
kspv said:
As a Telugu Brahmin now staying in Karnataka, I may be allowed to put certain things on record.

It is not true that there has been no anti-Brahmin sentiment against Telugu Brahmins. The anti-brahmin movement in Andhra Pradesh was spearheaded by Ramaswamy Choudhary, a "Kamma" by caste (NTR's caste), and continues in some form to date. However, there has been no physical violence to the "anti-brahmin movement" of Andhra, as Telugu Brahmins constitute hardly 1% of the population of Andhra Pradesh, and were never economically as strong as, say, Reddys or even the Balija Naidus. It was more of a symbolic struggle by Kammas (who were never accepted as a respectable caste till post-World War-II, despite their industriousness and entrepreneurship) against a system, which they saw as Brahminical. There are several Kamma surnames to date, which end with the word "Sani," meaning a "keep" (Medasani, Appasani, Chalasani etc.), and according to the researchers of their own community, they were children born between Brahmins and the women from other communities. Hence the saying in Andhra , "to hate Brahmins, one needs Brahmin blood to run in them."

Secondly, like the link to the research paper in www.tamilnation.org says, there was a practicality associated with the spread of Brahminism from north to south. Wherever the king wanted to turn wasteland into a sprawling pastoral habitation, he would sent a manager to maintain the order & flow of things (a Brahmin), with a contingent of skilled and unskilled workers belonging to other communities. The Agraharas developed this way, and while the Agraharas were exclusively Brahmin, around them would live various other communities, the artisans, agricultural labour, washermen, barbers etc., who would share a symbiotic relationship with the folk living inside the Agraharas. Sometimes, by the time some of these non-Brahmin folks moved out and started separate settlements elsewhere, they would be Sanskritized enough so as to proclaim themselves as Brahmins, and live that way. Such movements occurred several times in course of history, mainly owing to the patronization by one king, or to avoid the wrath of another.

There were many non-Brahmin kings who were great patrons of Brahmins, and the Telugu Brahmins to this day fondly remember them, Krishna Deva Raya being one of them. Infact the first "Brahmanical Kings" of Andhra Pradesh, the Satavahanas, were horse-riding nomads from Maharashtra. Once they settled down in Andhra, they needed good managers and orderliness in the society. So they brought Apasthambha (who wrote Apasthambha Smriti as opposed to Manusmrithi, which many South Indian Brahmins follow even today) and his associates from Kashi, and also a few Brahmins from the present day north Kanara District of Karnataka, and settled them in Andhra. A mere examination of the origins of the Andhra Brahmins alone throws up a bewildering variety (some of them turn out to be from as far as Awadh). I am sure the same must be the case with Tamil Brahmins also.

Dear KSPV,
I don't think that andhra,tamil,karnataka and kerala brahmins come from awadh(north india). if we follow apasthambha or apasthambha smriti can any one say we are from north?Do you think that there was no brahmins in south india before The satavahanas kings? These is like accept that we are Aryans from Central Asia and Aryan invasion theory. Because anti brahmins people say origins of brahmins come to north form central asia. do you accept it my friend?
 
silverfox said:
kspv[So they brought Apasthambha (who wrote Apasthambha Smriti as opposed to Manusmrithi, which many South Indian Brahmins follow even today) and his associates from Kashi, and also a few Brahmins from the present day north Kanara District of Karnataka, and settled them in Andhra.]

Thank you, kspv, for your observations! Hey! Now I know one of the possible reasons for my ancestors to move from Kasi (Kashi or Varanasi) to all the way down to Thanjavur (Swamimalai) about 200 years ago!
Our family is always called "the house of Kasi"; my grandparents would use Hindi words so we wouldn't understand!!
Can somebody explain, in plain terms, the Apasthambha smrithi and Manusmrithi? Thanks!

Dear silverfox,
How do you know that your ancestors move from kashi to thanjavur? Did they give you any records to you? Just by calling house of kashi or use of hindi words mean you from kashi. Here also my relative family was called kashi family because they went to kashi for 5 generation and do some pujas(i don't know name). Dear friend i think some other reason to be called as kashi house not for this apasthambha smrithi. The anti brahmins will have a good day by saying brahmins come to kashi from Central Asia for any other smrithi.
 
swamimalai

:lol: silver fox ! r u a swamimalaian ? good ! from sannithi street ? my close relatives r there! ammanji.
s
silverfox said:
kspv[So they brought Apasthambha (who wrote Apasthambha Smriti as opposed to Manusmrithi, which many South Indian Brahmins follow even today) and his associates from Kashi, and also a few Brahmins from the present day north Kanara District of Karnataka, and settled them in Andhra.]

Thank you, kspv, for your observations! Hey! Now I know one of the possible reasons for my ancestors to move from Kasi (Kashi or Varanasi) to all the way down to Thanjavur (Swamimalai) about 200 years ago!
Our family is always called "the house of Kasi"; my grandparents would use Hindi words so we wouldn't understand!!
Can somebody explain, in plain terms, the Apasthambha smrithi and Manusmrithi? Thanks!
 
welcome to mother land !

dear silverfox, u r most welcome ! will u visit u r hometown swamimalai ? i am delighted to see u ! ammanji.
silverfox said:
Dear KRS:
Yes, I came here in Oct.1967 to go to Graduate school, as naive, frightened, shy young lad!
Speaking of going back to our roots, didn't you leave your folks when you left for the US? I left my mom, brother, sister and everybody else. My take on this is that my children can come visit me in India. This way, they will be in touch with our culture and tradition.
Yes, I was in the IT industry (worked for GE, IBM and had my own company).
I am leaving for Chennai via London/Scotland and am arriving in Chennai on Oct.29th. I am very excited!
 
Dear kspv, Smrithi means that which is remembered. Aapasthamba Smrithi is all about performance of karmas whereas Manu Smrithi is all about the administration of justice. They are like apple and orange!
 
Whisper,

I am not saying that "all" South Indian Brahmins had at one point of time migrated from the north. All I am saying is that there is an element of migration involved, both ways, and in this process a motley population consisting of various hues of people have become Brahmins. I too feel that the Aryan Migration Theory is overwhelmingly flawed. Have you interacted with the mongoloid brahmins of Assam or Nepal? How can you explain their existence as per the Aryan Migration Theory unless you accept that the locals (again, some of them had migrated from Manchuria) had taken to Brahminism to varying degrees and with their own variations? I am also uncomfortable with the idea that Brahmins are "somehow racially superior", and are different in some genetic way from the rest of the population. Brahminism is more a way of life, did and does have a clear social purpose (the "sacred power" theory offers a convincing explanation to this), and in certain ways has a personally utility to the people who follow it.

But that is not to say that there have not been migrations of people across the country, and sometimes to other countries. Three thousand years back, Indians were travelling upto the Silk Route, and then along it, to the Balkans and beyond. Shiva temple ruins were found near the extremities of Balkans close to Russia. Around A.D. 100, the Kingdom of Funan in Combodia was esatablished by the legendary South Indian Brahmin, "Kambu" (=hence Combodia). He was followed by a series of Vaishnavite South Indian Brahmin rulers, including Chandana, and this culture finally culminated around 1200 A.D. in the magnificient Angkor Vat. Take the case of Sankethi Brahmins of Karnataka. These do hard agricultural labour, are vegetarian, nearly 100% Sanskrit literate (= populate the only Sanskrit speaking village in the world in the Hassan District of Karnataka), academically brilliant, have a significant population in the U.S., and speak corrupted Tamil (in the heartland Karnataka). Their oral and written history says that they were Aiyars from Sangkottai (=hence the name, "Sankethi") in Tamilnadu who had moved via north-Kerala and Coorg to the central Karnataka due to drought (they have their own mythology to explain how this drought occurred). The recorded history of Saraswat Brahmins of Goa says that they had migrated from Kashmir when the post-12th Century Muslim kings started slaughtering them enmasse. To this day, the only Brahmins who follow the Saraswat way are the Kashmiri Pandits and the Goan Saraswats (Lata Mangeshkar & Sunil Gavaskar included). It is a different matter that in Goa too, they got murdered, maimed, mutilated, and coverted to Christianity during the Catholic Inquisition of Goa started by "Saint" Francis Xavier. How do you explain these movements if you assume that there had been no migration of Brahmins at all?

I recognize your strong attachment to the Tamil language, and I respect that sentiment. But that does not rule out the possibility that an ancestor of ours might have spoken a different language and lived in a different province / country. Annamacharya, who wrote beautiful, and till date unmatched verses about Lord Venkateshwara in purest Telugu, belonged to a family that migrated four generations before him from the north as per the recorded history of his family. It was also very common for South Indian Brahmins (irrespective of their origins) to visit Kashi and also the present day Bengal for educational purposes. Travel, study, debate, and exchange of ideas and literature, and also the sentiment of pan-Brahminism seem to be of much more common occurence amongst the Brahmins of ancient and medieval India. As for the varying origins of Telugu Brahmins (Niyogis, Vaidikis, Dravidas, Konaseemas, Madhvaites, Vishnavaites, and even Telugu Aiyars & Aiyangars), I can actually give you historical and documentary sources (Ahobila Matham keeps some of them), which you can study and decide for yourself. Actually, tracing the roots of south Indian Brahmins (or for that matter any other community) is such an extensive topic, that it is beyond the scope of this discussion to go into it. It would suffice to say that there are close to a hundred different sects and communities in Andhra Brahmins, each owing allegiance to certain sacred texts, following a set of customs slightly different from others, and origins of each of these are very interesting. Prior to the 1950s, these never even used to intermarry. Intermarriage has only now become acceptable due to isolated populations, and lack of qualified grooms within.

Anbu,

I request you to kindly go through the following, the text of which is available online.

The Sacred Laws of the Âryas
AS TAUGHT IN THE SCHOOL OF
ÂPASTAMBA
(Apastamba Dharma Sutra)
Translated by Georg Bühler
Sacred Books of the East, Vol. 2
Oxford: The Clarendon Press
[1879]

You would find that the themes of duties of the King, how to run the administration, duties of the Brahmin etc., are basic to Aapasthamba Smrithi too, just as they were basic to Manu Smrithi. As for the differences between the A.S. & the M.S., and why they arose, this has been a topic of research, and has been well explained interms of changing requirements of times by the scholars. May be for the changing times of Tamilnadu, we need an "Anbu Smrithi". How about it? :)

I feel that it is unwarranted to ridicule a largely benevolent way of life such as Brahminism, on the grounds that it came from south, east, west or north.
 
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One small observation (=may be not directly connected to this thread)

While the Jewish Holocaust is well known, I am sure, that interms of magnitude, the Brahmin Holocaust would be no less (only nobody speaks about it, except may be Arun Shourie). One would shudder at the savagery and brutality with which slaughtering of Brahmins enmasse was described in Shahnamahs and autobiographies of the Muslim rulers. But Brahminism survives, and I am sure it will survive in Tamilnadu too.
 
It is said that Aapasthamba Rishi is known for his elaboration that he himself had to abridge his suthra! When you say your 'abhivaadhaye' you suthra you adopt to perform the karma is either Aapasthamba or Bodhaayana. Bodhaayana suthradhaaris have longer version of karma to perform as opposed to that of Aapasthamba.

With Narayanasmrithi,
Anbu
 
Oops sorry for the quick posting without reading!

It is said that Aapasthamba Rishi is known for his elaboration that he himself had to abridge his suthra! Here the suthra is to be understood as a formula rather than the memory though memory is the intergral part of the formula. When you say your 'abhivaadhaye' you mention the suthra that you adopt to perform the karma as either Aapasthamba or Bodhaayana. Bodhaayana suthradhaaris have longer version of karma to perform as opposed to that of Aapasthamba.

With Narayanasmrithi,
Anbu
 
kspv said:
Whisper,

....

But that is not to say that there have not been migrations of people across the country, and sometimes to other countries. Three thousand years back, Indians were travelling upto the Silk Route, and then along it, to the Balkans and beyond. Shiva temple ruins were found near the extremities of Balkans close to Russia. ....
....
Dear kspv,

Interesting.
But the finding of Temple ruins in different parts of the world can also be explained in this way:

Sanathana Dharma was the only religion that flourished all over the world, before the advent of other religions. In fact that is probably the reason why there is no particular name attached to it, it is just Sanathana Dharma - a way of life. This is the view expressed by the Sage of Kanchi.

Another interesting piece of information: The word ZOROASTRIAN comes from Saurashtrian - Brahmins of Saurashtra. They landed in Persia and settled down there.

-- Viswanath
 
Vishwanath,

That's what P.N.Oak (a Saraswat with R.S.S. leanings) too had said. He also made several other claims, quoting from historical sources, that Kaaba (which is stoned during the "stoning of the Devil" ceremony of Haz, as an expression of repugnancy towards idol-worship) was actually a Shivalinga, that Tajmahal was Tejo Mahalaya, a temple of Agreshwar Mahadev (Shiva, the ruling diety of Agra) etc.

This gentleman had been very controversial, and his "Sanathana Dharma all over the world" theory is not supported as on date by historical evidence. So I do not know what to make out of his claims (=I simply do not have enough knowledge base to make my own deductions).

However, his premise that the Tajmahal was an earlier Hindu structure was picked up by serveral researchers, including Bhat & Athawale, and another authority on Historical Architecture, Marvin Mills. Marvin Mills infact smuggled out a piece from a door of the Taj and did radio-carbon dating on it, and it happened to pre-date Shahjahan by about 200 years. Following the controversy, A.S.I. did its own radio-carbon dating, and its results were barred from being announced for the fear of communal tensions. There is no dispute as on date amongst the researchers in Historical Architecture that Tajmahal, atleast in part, was an earlier Hindu structure, the evidence directly coming from Shahjahan's own Badshahnamah, in which it was mentioned that he had taken a palace known as "Mansingh Palace" from Raja Jai Singh for the construction of a Mausoleum for his dead wife. The debate is only about whether Tajmahal was a Hindu palace or a Hindu temple, and to what extent Shahjahan can be given credit for the present structure.

However, since we live in a "secular" country, we are all expected to keep our mouths shut on such things. If necessary, secular myths would have to be invented, even if they are utter lies. It is like Sharad Pawar "inventing" a seventh bomb-blast in a Muslim locality during the 1993 Mumbai bomb-blasts, to prevent the Hindu victims of the six bomb blasts from retributing.


Anbu,

Thanks for the comments. Unfortunately, my limited knowledge of Sanskrit puts me at the risk of reading "coloured" translations.

Any way, let us get back to the main-topic of the thread, "Are not Tamil Brahmins Tamilians?". I think they are, as long as they speak Tamil, and have strong attachment and affection for that language.
 
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doubt about your own identity??????

Oh my god, we are indeed Tamilians, aren't u sure about your own identity, I advise those who are plausible kindly please make an appointment with DNA specialist and obtain a confirmatory certificate "that u r a Tamilian or Asian or Mammal or Chordata.."


For sure all the Pattar,Iyer,Iyengar's are Tamilian by brith
and neither migrated from north nor Mauryas has brought to the south. We are'nt belongs to that group.

Excluding (karnataka-vaishnava-conversion-kannadigas/jains-Iyengars and all the non tamil ancestory Brahmins who has migrated from various part of India to Tamilnadu- who also automaticaly caring the Iyer suffix ..eg.Saurastra, Mullakanadu..and many others)-they are not Tamilians by birth.
eg. Tiruvayaru Tygaraja Swamy (telugu Brahmin) and it is technically wrong to call him as an Iyer.
Actor Gemini Ganesan..Mullakanadu (Telugu brahmin..some claims Mullakanadus are Kannada brahmins)

Who is Dravidian? means (southerners) Tamil, telugu, malayali, kannada, tulu, konkan : all class (Brahmana and non brahmana)
 
Dear kspv,
As you now say saraswat, angor vat, sankethi and migration theory. Not all the saraswat people accept that migration theory, some say that lord prasuram made this konkan country. Then where this migration theory come from? (Kashmir pandits now migrated all places because of terrorism). The migration theory come from anti brahmins groups(even some brahmins help them like our first P.M. pandit nehru) who want to destroy the hinduism.

Annamacharya and kambu are people who went to preach and these people then lived with local brahmins there who follow them.

If you want to say that those who follow the Adi shankaracharya all come from kerala? Then Sri ramanuja followers are from tamilnadu? Then Sri madhvacharya followers are from karnataka? it's like they preach and people follow them are locals not migrated people,at one point of time or over period of time.

These migration and invasion theory come to divided our people and country. Please my friend KSPV don't fall into trap set by these type theory people.
As you respect my sentiment i also want to tell i like your deep thought and so many detailes which you provided to us. Once again i thank you for your respect given to me.
 
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Dear Whisper, KSPV, tri-vikrama

Fantastic postings, guys! It is like a mystery novel except you guys have been providing outstanding historical information .. and I eagerly wait to read more and more!! Keep them coming!
 
well said

whisper said:
kspv said:
IIf you want to say that those who follow the Adi shankaracharya all come from kerala? Then Sri ramanuja followers are from tamilnadu? Then Sri madhvacharya followers are from karnataka? it's like they preach and people follow them are locals not migrated people,at one point of time or over period of time.

These migration and invasion theory come to divided our people and country. Please my friend KSPV don't fall into trap set by these type theory people.
As you respect my sentiment i also want to tell i like your deep thought and so many detailes which you provided to us. Once again i thank you for your respect given to me.

Exactly, it is yet to prove or many queries to be answered about the migration and invasion theories, even our sacred texts are'nt to be sure, whether it is original or been altered or been manipulated by dominated forces....many many questions yet to be answered mate. only god knows or maybe one day the fast growing technologies will reveal the truth.

Not necessary if you Boudanya, apastamba, Kaathyaanya, manumsmriti..etc belongs to the place where it is originate from.

Even Kumara guruparar has composed various hymns such as Sakalavali malai in Varanasi. let say if we don't know his origin, then we also can conclude that a nothern Indian seer who has composed it. Sattumurai are also being observed in number of Vaishnava temple in Nepal, shall I conclude that it is a Tamilian's Temple.

we could have migrated from africa, Europe, central asia or austronesia about 400,000 years ago (citation new scientist article)

Another theory Aryans has migrated from Indian continental and not from central asia or europe.

European Gypsies such Chez..Albanies..Kosovos claiming that they have travel away from Indian Continental.

My credits will go to the BIG FLOOD, Pralayam ...human and even animal move or migrate in vast number due to nature disaster, untolerable atmosphere, of better healthy/wealthy promising life/survival. So some strong force that has act upon them to move away.

My Greatgrand parents (probably backstaber working for the British and betrayed the Indians) has migrated to Malaysia (working for the British to pamper them) and My Parents migrated to UK (better job offer and status) and it is my turn now probably migrate back to India (I like Indian Girls and indian food)
 
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kspv said:
As a Telugu Brahmin now staying in Karnataka, I may be allowed to put certain things on record.

There are several Kamma surnames to date, which end with the word "Sani," a slang-word used for a lady who is officially not married to (due to the difference in communities), but nevertheless lives with a man of higher caste (Medasani, Appasani, Chalasani etc.), and according to the researchers of their own community, they were children born between Brahmins and the women from other communities. Hence the saying in Andhra , "to hate Brahmins, one needs Brahmin blood to run in them."

Dear kspv,
As you want to tell that you respect the tamil sentiment, But we also respect the telugu and other people sentiment. You inform us that one of your article that kamma's are people born between brahmin and other community. But i disagree with it. because if some people born between different caste people they are not add to people between brahmins and kammas. Might be one or two peole not all the people were born like that. It's like doing insult to brahmins and kammas also.
 
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tri_vikrama said:
Oh my god, we are indeed Tamilians, aren't u sure about your own identity, I advise those who are plausible kindly please make an appointment with DNA specialist and obtain a confirmatory certificate "that u r a Tamilian or Asian or Mammal or Chordata.."


Excluding (karnataka-vaishnava-conversion-kannadigas/jains-Iyengars and all the non tamil ancestory Brahmins who has migrated from various part of India to Tamilnadu- who also automaticaly caring the Iyer suffix ..eg.Saurastra, Mullakanadu..and many others)-they are not Tamilians by birth.
Who is Dravidian? means (southerners) Tamil, telugu, malayali, kannada, tulu, konkan : all class (Brahmana and non brahmana)

Dear tri_vikrama,
I like to tell that kannadiga iyengars are not migrated people. The hebbar iyengars are local kannadigas not jain converts. They are followers of sri ramanuja.
The menning off hebbar iyengars in kannada is hebbu/hiridhu (meaning big) + haruva (meaning brahmin).
 
silverfox said:
Dear Whisper:
If Hebbar Iyengars are local Kannadigas, how come they speak Tamil (of course, with an accent!) at home?

Dear silverfox,
Hebber iyengars are disciples of sri ramanuja who at that time lives in melkote(near mysore), as exile. At that time the chola king want the sri ramanuja to convert into shaivism. So ramanuja escape to mysore kingdom. There with his few tamil iyengars disciples start preaching his vishishtadvaita philosophy and some time later local kannadigas brahmins start convert into his philosophy.

To interact with the sri ramanuja and his disciples they have to speak in sanskrit or tamil. And tamil is easy compare to sanskrit. but their tamil is not how we speak in tamilnadu. till date they speak both kannada and tamil.

As one off my friend is hebber iyengars. She speak in kannada(her mother tongue is kannada) only at home not in tamil. And i also saw so many of her relatives speak with each other in kannada. Even my former room mate is hebber iyengar who's family lives in salem tamil nadu also spoke in kannada at home.He gave kannada as his mother tongue in school certificate(in salem T.N). I don't know if they speak in tamil at home.Did any one told you that they speak tamil?
 
Dear Whisper:
I am sorry to tell you that your infomation is not right. I have a Hebbar Iyengar relative and they speak Tamil at home (corrupted, maybe). The following info was provided by a Mandyam Iyengar friend of mine from Mysore. You should ask your friend what her mother-tongue is, even though she may speak in Kannada.

"Both Mandyam Iyengars & Hebbar Iyengars speak brahmin tamil mixed w kannada words. I think due to power greedy alwars, they split into mandyam & hebbar. Mandyam Iyengars are a much smaller community than Hebbar, make fun of each others' tamil, cooking,( like sibling's rivalry).But mandyam Iyengars boast that we are direct descendents of Ramnuja & "pure" which may very well be true as sri ramanuja sired more than 2 dozen children ! Hebbar has lot of mix! But it is false that they speak kannada at home ,We all speak tamil at home but are more well versed w kannada, just like a telugu speaking chettiar settled in Madras is probably more fluent in Tamil than telugu."
 
silverfox said:
Dear Whisper:
I am sorry to tell you that your infomation is not right. I have a Hebbar Iyengar relative and they speak Tamil at home (corrupted, maybe). The following info was provided by a Mandyam Iyengar friend of mine from Mysore. You should ask your friend what her mother-tongue is, even though she may speak in Kannada.

"Both Mandyam Iyengars & Hebbar Iyengars speak brahmin tamil mixed w kannada words. I think due to power greedy alwars, they split into mandyam & hebbar. Mandyam Iyengars are a much smaller community than Hebbar, make fun of each others' tamil, cooking,( like sibling's rivalry).But mandyam Iyengars boast that we are direct descendents of Ramnuja & "pure" which may very well be true as sri ramanuja sired more than 2 dozen children ! Hebbar has lot of mix! But it is false that they speak kannada at home ,We all speak tamil at home but are more well versed w kannada, just like a telugu speaking chettiar settled in Madras is probably more fluent in Tamil than telugu."

Dear silverfox,
I asked my friend abt her mother tongue yeserday she told kannada. And i also saw her school certificate today( i asked her to bring to clarify our dout) All in that was kannada.
I also asked my former room mate(a hebbar iyengar) abt this. He told me that mandya( what you call mandayam i think)iyengars was there and but the hebber iyengars like him speak kannada. Even he his from tamilnadu(his flamily lives in salem) and He got married to a girl from hebbar iyengars and she speak kannada at home. I don't know why he want to tell me or in his certificate(even he also put his mother tongue as kannada, i saw some time back when he was my room mate) his mother tongue as kannada.
Any way we share some more information abt this silverfox.
 
Dear Whisper:
Maybe your friends are not real Hebbar Iyengars!! (I am just kidding!).
I don't know much about these to discuss further; I only go by what I have heard.
Did you ask your friends maybe his/her ancestors spoke Tamil at some point and lost it over time?
 
I am not blaming anyone and am not being negative either,

But I wish the participation and activity on topics like these could also be directed towards real-life initiatives which will actually change something on the ground.

Please refer Volunteer thread. See the teams being suggested there. Which ones can YOU join ?
 
Hebbar Iyengars

I am a 100% Hebbar Iyengar on both sides. We speak Tamil corrupted by Kannada at home. Those who have lived in Karnataka speak Kannada quite fluently and yes, I do come across many Hebbar Iyengars who have drifted towards Kannada due to their being surrounded by Kannadigas and due to the fact that Hebbar Iyengar Tamil has no script per se and hence no formal training in the form of books, literature, music etc. It however has a well defined grammar and vocabulary - which is quite remarkable for a language which exists only in the minds of its speakers. Who defined this grammar and formalized it and how it has got transmitted over generations is a great mystery. However, it is well known fact that Hebbar Iyengars
are relatively lax in their orthodoxy as compared to Madras Iyengars. This points to the possibility that they were latter day converts to the Iyengar fold perhaps from Hoysala Jains who dominate the same region of Karnataka - Hassan Disctrict which includes the Jain center Shravanabelagola as well as the reknown Hindu temples at Belur and Halebid. As a result of their loose linguistic roots, Hebbar Iyengars are relatively articulate in English and speak English with less of an accent than most groups in India.




silverfox said:
Dear Whisper:
Maybe your friends are not real Hebbar Iyengars!! (I am just kidding!).
I don't know much about these to discuss further; I only go by what I have heard.
Did you ask your friends maybe his/her ancestors spoke Tamil at some point and lost it over time?
 
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