Advice to Parents - Arrange for Inter-Brahmin marriage

[AnanthaNarayanan]

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there is a tendency to mock and ridicule the parents of boys who are not fortunate enough to get brides from the community.

Their only fault is looking for a bride within the community.

If a lorry driver in namakkal can get a bride definitely the brahmin boys who are better placed can get a bride. A bride who could be more of a wife than many tamil brahmin girls.

There will be a number of brokers who can arrange a marriage with girls form kerala. The only thing you may have to give up is the so called brahminism. Anyway that has not benefited the present generation in any way.

It is only a question of time.

By looking at brahmins from other places, we try to preserve our self respect as a brahmin.

If punjabis can get bihari brides there is no reason why tamil brahmins can not get bihari brahmin brides.

May be we should get in touch with the brokers who arrange for brides in bihar. It may be worthwhile to contact even the namakkal brokers.

sri ss ji

the kerala girls means brahmin s or other caste girls.?

Why because in all most all the villages in kerala there are plenty of brahmin boys financial sound ones in q

 

[sankara_sharmah]

sri ss ji

the kerala girls means brahmin s or other caste girls.?

Why because in all most all the villages in kerala there are plenty of brahmin boys financial sound ones in q

Obviously not Brahmins, though the TV programme did not mention any caste.

 

[sangom]

We have been discussing Inter-caste marriages in many threads. Most of these are love marriages.

There are hundreds of Sub castes among Brahmins in India. We have discussed in detail the problems in getting Brides in the Tamil Brahmin community.

Are we ready to look at Brides form the other Brahmin communities? Some years back, I had discussed the inter-Brahmin marriages during my visit to Pandharpur in Maharashtra. I found that among my Brahmin friends there, there is a feeling that such marriages should be encouraged. This is confirmed by my interaction with other Brahmins like Maithili and Sarayuparin Brahmins.

All the Brahmins in India share common values.

1. Belief in the Vedas/Puranas.

2. Belief in Santhya Vandanam and other rituals.

Take the case of Maharashtrian Brahmins. Their customs and traditions are basically like us. In fact it is difficult to distinguish between a Maharashtrian and Kannada Brahmins.

Even Brahmins from Gadwal have a lot in common with us.

So why do we not widen our search for Brides to include Brahmins from all over India?

You can always talk about differences. But then if you look for commonality you will find so may. You look for differences, You will find many. Unfortunately we always look for differences.

It is time for all the Brahmins in India to unite. You can contribute to that Unity by getting a Sarayuparin Brahmin Bride for your son.

Saryupareen Brahmins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Dear Shri. sankara_sharmah ,

From the discussions/points of view stated by our members, it seems to me that we cannot give any general prescription/s for individuals or agencies helping our TB Parents in getting brides for their sons. As regards your impression that all brahmins in India have some common factors like belief in the Vedas/Puranas, and belief in Sandhya Vandanam and other rituals, I can say from my personal experience that brahmins differ drastically in the ever so many other aspects of life and it will not be easy for an ordinary TB with some amount of orthodox belief in our customs and rituals to accept what, for example, a Bengali or UP brahmin thinks as to how he should live. Such intermarriage is now more feasible amongst the modernised TBs and the modernised brahmins from other parts of the country. But the shortage of girls is not in that category, in my view. As far as I know even today arranged marriage alliance between a Chitpavan brahmin family and a Desastha brahmin family of Maharashtra will be very rare unless both are modern, i.e., boy and girl abroad, both in IT or equally well-paying jobs in metros, etc., or where it is a love marriage which also will be rare in villages. That being just a sample of the level of integration of brahmins sects within an area marked by same language and culture, will it be possible for any enterprise to bring together, within a short time, far-flung sects with different languages, customs, rituals, festivals etc., simply on the flimsy basis that they believe in Vedas/Puranas, and Sandhyavandanam? And our difficulty needs to be tackled quickly.

Since our problem pertains to shortage of TB brides, I will suggest that people / agencies who intend to assist the boys' parents in this matter should persuade them (the boys and their parents/families) to consider girls from compatible local sections like Saiva Pillai, Achari (goldsmith), Nair/Menon/Ambalavasis (in the case of Kerala), and so on. This will ensure a bit more compatibility as regards language, all the customs other than the purely brahminical vaideeka rituals and, in most cases, the vegetarian habit also. I have seen a few such cases happening around me of late and wish that such alliances succeed and help the TB community to find a solution for the shortage of marriageable girls.

 

[sangom]

Dear Shri Swaminatha Sarma,

I am extremely sorry for the mistake. Please excuse me. I will take care in future.
I am editing my post.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

First about the suggestion that we look at other castes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

I am not talking theory. I have tried this. Advertisements in Hindu with Caste No Bar gets no reply from other castes. The only replies are inter-caste parents who want a Brahmin Boy. Advertisement in Malaya Manorama draws a equally bleak response. I have posted about this earlier.

Not for divorcees. But for unmarried Boys.

Anyone who wants to challenge me on this can try this experiment spending may be Rs.10000 for ads.

Advertisement for any Brahmin in Hindustan Times gets a much better response. But be aware that it is difficult to get a good looking bride anywhere in India. Penn Parkal in Delhi is also more expensive when you stay in Chennai.

More about that later.

About Brahmins from different parts of India, the Vaidic brahmins have a lot in common. I have met Brahmins from allover India in the Vedic conferences, Vedic recital and other meetings discussing very Brahminic things. I never felt the difference.

Many people do not understand that all Brahmins do not follow the same Veda or Smiriti. So the customs differ. The customs are different even between Madurai and Tanjore. The Apasthamba Sutra people find the Bodhayana sutra rituals strange.

The average Brahmin all over India has many customs which are region specific. So he finds that there is a lot of difference. The sub castes have been formed mostly on the locality the Brahmins settled down in.

If you stay in the house of a Dakshnathiya Brahmin in Midnapore district of West Bengal or a Sarayuparin Brahmin in Allahabad, you will find how little we differ.

There was a serial called Kalachakra in Hindi about Marathi Konkanastha Brahmins. I had asked many of my relatives in Mumbai to see that to understand how little they differ from us.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Talking about differences, the people of Kerala follow their own form of Hinduism. They do not celebrate any festival which all the Hindus celeberate. They are the only Hindus who do not celeberate Deepavali. Navarathri is celeberated only in temples. These two festivals are celeberated by all Hindus.

 

[sangom]

First about the suggestion that we look at other castes in Tamil Nadu and Kerala.

I am not talking theory. I have tried this. Advertisements in Hindu with Caste No Bar gets no reply from other castes. The only replies are inter-caste parents who want a Brahmin Boy. Advertisement in Malaya Manorama draws a equally bleak response. I have posted about this earlier.

Not for divorcees. But for unmarried Boys.

Anyone who wants to challenge me on this can try this experiment spending may be Rs.10000 for ads.

Advertisement for any Brahmin in Hindustan Times gets a much better response. But be aware that it is difficult to get a good looking bride anywhere in India. Penn Parkal in Delhi is also more expensive when you stay in Chennai.

More about that later.

About Brahmins from different parts of India, the Vaidic brahmins have a lot in common. I have met Brahmins from allover India in the Vedic conferences, Vedic recital and other meetings discussing very Brahminic things. I never felt the difference.

Many people do not understand that all Brahmins do not follow the same Veda or Smiriti. So the customs differ. The customs are different even between Madurai and Tanjore. The Apasthamba Sutra people find the Bodhayana sutra rituals strange.

The average Brahmin all over India has many customs which are region specific. So he finds that there is a lot of difference. The sub castes have been formed mostly on the locality the Brahmins settled down in.

If you stay in the house of a Dakshnathiya Brahmin in Midnapore district of West Bengal or a Sarayuparin Brahmin in Allahabad, you will find how little we differ.

There was a serial called Kalachakra in Hindi about Marathi Konkanastha Brahmins. I had asked many of my relatives in Mumbai to see that to understand how little they differ from us.

I was not thinking of getting enough responses to a newspaper ad. when I mentioned that we may consider other compatible local castes. Since caste has been an impregnable and insurmountable barrier for so long, with the "high-low" status implied, it will not be realistic to expect such immediate response to ads. from our TB side; what I meant was that, enquiries should be made locally, and then widened gradually with the help of people from these other castes so that we find some people willing to give their daughter in marriage to a TB boy. Only when more and more of such alliances happen and are found to proceed congenially, can we expect them to come forward and answer our ads. Let us not forget that there may not be a shortage for boys in their community itself and also that their youth, fired by caste spirit, may oppose such alliance and even threaten the concerned parents with dire consequences.

Vedic conferences, Vedic recitals and rituals, and other meetings to discuss very brahminic things, as you say, are all special occasions with a rarified atmosphere, whereas a married life is an utterly mundane affair concerned more with what to cook and eat, what to wear and when, how to celebrate a festival or occasion and which language to talk, etc. For example, I think a Saryuparin brahmin will have live fish on the occasion of the marriage ritual as also in the food almost everyday, including Sraddha. Till the 70's the non-saryuparin (i.e., those Bengali brahmins who did not commit the sin of crossing the Ganga, coming to the other side and thus becoming a "fallen" sub-caste) would not consider alliance from the Saryuparins! I don't know if you have discussed the importance of fish as a holy and necessary item in the Bengali brahmin household, with any of them.

Marathi Konkanastha are the chittapavan brahmins; while their life style is somewhat similar to ours (TBs), they are very clan-conscious and this you can see from their website itself; they are like the Sanketis of Karnataka (Mysore).

 

[sangom]

Talking about differences, the people of Kerala follow their own form of Hinduism. They do not celebrate any festival which all the Hindus celeberate. They are the only Hindus who do not celeberate Deepavali. Navarathri is celeberated only in temples. These two festivals are celeberated by all Hindus.

I don't know whether you are referring to TBs in Kerala also. If so, it is not at all correct. The Saiva Pillais do celebrate both; Acharis (goldsmith) Navaratri but only now they are able to spend and show that they are celebrating Deepavali; earlier, they did not have the spending capacity to make a show of it.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

Saryuparins are not Bengali Brahmins. They are North Indian.

Saryupareen Brahmins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I remember long back visiting a relative's house in Mumbai. He is from Mannargudi. He had married a girl from North Parur in Kerala. We were able to partly understand the Tamil spoken by his wife. Then his brother in law came on the scene. He had come from North Parur for a visit. My relative's wife had to translate whatever he spoke to Tamil. For all we knew he could be speaking in Latin or Greek.

My relative's wife could not read Tamil. So the only common language was English. This was an arranged marriage about 30 years back.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I don't know whether you are referring to TBs in Kerala also. If so, it is not at all correct. The Saiva Pillais do celebrate both; Acharis (goldsmith) Navaratri but only now they are able to spend and show that they are celebrating Deepavali; earlier, they did not have the spending capacity to make a show of it.

Saiva Pillais are Tamil. I am referiing basically to Namboodiris, Nairs and allied castes. They do not follow any Smiriti.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

All of us know how rigid Brahmins can be about Caste and Sub Caste.

This discussion is about about breaking the rigid pattern. Finding ways and means of doing it.

 

[sangom]

Saryuparins are not Bengali Brahmins. They are North Indian.

Saryupareen Brahmins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I was in Kanpur and Lucknow during my service and had friends from "Saryuparin" Bengali Brahmins as also from Kuleen brahmins of Bengal (Bandyopadhyaya, Mukhopadhyay, etc) and the information I furnished was learnt from them. You will observe that the Saryuparin have Bengali brahmins as one category; they are the Saryuparin Bengali brahmins. Our knowledge about all these schisms is not much and only when we live and move among them we will come to know more.

I remember long back visiting a relative's house in Mumbai. He is from Mannargudi. He had married a girl from North Parur in Kerala. We were able to partly understand the Tamil spoken by his wife. Then his brother in law came on the scene. He had come from North Parur for a visit. My relative's wife had to translate whatever he spoke to Tamil. For all we knew he could be speaking in Latin or Greek.

My relative's wife could not read Tamil. So the only common language was English. This was an arranged marriage about 30 years back.

If this is the position when marrying a N.Parur TB girl, what will be the situation if we have to understand an entirely new language and how will the two families have any meaningful dialogue and social interaction?

 

[sankara_sharmah]

There has been many attempts to bring the Brahmins together. Inter-Brahmin marriage has been one of the ideas discussed.

The Brahmins who are the victimized have that common bondage in addition to everything else. It is easier than marriage with the castes who consider themselves to have been victimized by Brahmins.

Inter-Brahmin marriages have taken place. But these have been mostly those cases of Govt. officials fixing up their children's marriages during one of the interminable conferences we have in New Delhi.

We are talking about a desperate situation here where parents has to either break the mold or be contented with their sons not getting married.

If we can identify a number of Brahmin Parents who are willing to consider Brahmin Girls from other regions, then we could think of locating suitable girls from other regions.

The only sources now are the marriage web sites. Since many of the profiles are posted by the Boys/Girls themselves, they do not suffer from the deep rooted prejudices of the earlier generation.

 

[sangom]

We are talking about a desperate situation here where parents has to either break the mold or be contented with their sons not getting married.

If we can identify a number of Brahmin Parents who are willing to consider Brahmin Girls from other regions, then we could think of locating suitable girls from other regions.

The only sources now are the marriage web sites. Since many of the profiles are posted by the Boys/Girls themselves, they do not suffer from the deep rooted prejudices of the earlier generation.

The points that you make are fine. If we are able to get a large enough number of parents to accept girls from other regions, and their sons are also willing for it, half the task is over. The next stage is to motivate enough brahmins from other regions to come forward and accept the offers from TBs. That, in my view, will be very difficult for TBs to bring about at this stage. I have cited some factors, in my earlier posts, which are relevant to this issue. So, in effect, it will be necessary to find some agency within the other area brahmins which will motivate them also to come forward and give their daughters in marriage to TB boys.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I am sure the parents of Girls/Boys will come up with even more factors against it.

But that is not the point here.

In fact it is the Girls who have to make more adjustment here. But they do it. I remember once when I was in my village on vacation, the whole village was agog because one of our Boys had married a Sardarni and brought her home. She did not know Tamil. But the couple got the maximum number of invitations for dinner because everyone wanted to see the Sardarni at close quarters. The couple lived in New Delhi.

About 10 years later I met the Sardarni at a family wedding. I could not believe that the Madisar wearing woman who was gossiping with the family women about relatives in Brahmin Tamil was the same Sardarni.

I have seen this happening very often.

The Bihari women who have gone to Punjab seem to have adapted themselves.

If we can convince our people we could get hold of one of the Brokers who arranges the Bihari migration to Punjab. They are in this for money. Pay them, give them the requirements and they should be able to deliver. Of course a lot of inquiries and other safe guards are called for.

The Most important thing is to convince our people and get them to volunteer.

I started this discussion to sound the idea and sell it.

 

[kunjuppu]

sankara, sangom,

i am very happy to see the way the discussions are progressing positively towards a solution.

i think you are both on the right track, re identifying our boys' desperate situation, seeking to break caste prejudices and ultimately finding wives for our boys.

best wishes for a good ending to your wards & sons...

 

[Nara]

....Parents are therefore now agreeing for alliances of brahmin boys with girls from goldsmith families, Saiva Pillais etc., the most attractive aspect being vegetarianism and some similarity to customs and beliefs.

I endorse the above, which is unsurprising. But what is surprising is those who decry DK/DMK for saying Brahmins are not Tamils don't endorse it. If you prepare a list of commonalities between TB and vegetarian TNB (VTNB) on the one hand, and TB and North Indian B (NIB) on the other, the former will be very long indeed, and the later will have just one item, caste.

If the elites of TB take the trouble to assist and facilitate TBs find matches with NIB and ignore VTNB, then they only provide aid and comfort to those who argue that TBs in their heart of hearts do not think of themselves as Tamils.

Instead, if the same TB elites promote an alliance between TB and VTNB marriage brokers and facilitate matches between TB boys and VTNB girls, not only will the TB boys benefit, the so called TB community will as well from the favorable publicity. The TBs can take credit for promoting a caste free society.

Cheers!

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I would request the Administrators to make a new category "Marriages" or something similar and transfer all the threads relating to the topic of marriages there. This would enable Parents of marriageable Boys/Girls to read them.

This would also enable the majority of members who are neither Parents of marriageable children not prospective Brides/Grooms to keep off these boring (to them) topics.

Thank You.

 

[kunjuppu]

..
This would also enable the majority of members who are neither Parents of marriageable children not prospective Brides/Grooms to keep off these boring (to them) topics.

Thank You.

sankara,

this topic should be of interest to all of us, whether we are parents looking out for girls for our boys or otherwise, as is evidenced by the many posts here.

the sum total of thoughts of folks like you, sangom, raghi, nara, and eskeyaar, has made breakthrough in our thinking that prayers and yaagams alone will not solve an issue of a fairly situation, where the biological clock is ticking against a significant number of our boys.

after all, the non parents of this issue today, have also, an equal interest of this issue and solution, for tomorrow they will be on the lookout similarly for their sons. won't they?

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I endorse the above, which is unsurprising. But what is surprising is those who decry DK/DMK for saying Brahmins are not Tamils don't endorse it. If you prepare a list of commonalities between TB and vegetarian TNB (VTNB) on the one hand, and TB and North Indian B (NIB) on the other, the former will be very long indeed, and the later will have just one item, caste.

If the elites of TB take the trouble to assist and facilitate TBs find matches with NIB and ignore VTNB, then they only provide aid and comfort to those who argue that TBs in their heart of hearts do not think of themselves as Tamils.

Instead, if the same TB elites promote an alliance between TB and VTNB marriage brokers and facilitate matches between TB boys and VTNB girls, not only will the TB boys benefit, the so called TB community will as well from the favorable publicity. The TBs can take credit for promoting a caste free society.

Cheers!

....Parents are therefore now agreeing for alliances of brahmin boys with girls from goldsmith families, Saiva Pillais etc., the most attractive aspect being vegetarianism and some similarity to customs and beliefs.

Where? Not in Tamil Nadu.

Brahmin -Non Brahmin arranged marriages could be started as a separate discussion so that the other members could post their views.

I am a Brahmin first and then only a Tamil. The Brahmin detractors of Tamil Nadu are not going to embrace us because Brahmins marry Non-Brahmins. It would be considered a great success of their program and we would be ridiculed. There will be considerable unfavorable publicity and we would lose whatever respect we still have in the society.

 

[nachi naga]

Where? Not in Tamil Nadu.

Brahmin -Non Brahmin arranged marriages could be started as a separate discussion so that the other members could post their views.

I am a Brahmin first and then only a Tamil. The Brahmin detractors of Tamil Nadu are not going to embrace us because Brahmins marry Non-Brahmins. It would be considered a great success of their program and we would be ridiculed. There will be considerable unfavorable publicity and we would lose whatever respect we still have in the society.

in tamizh nadu,if you are a brahmin,then you shud marry a brahmin.exceptions are always there.i think its better also to stick with your community.even in west,inter-racial marriages are a minoroty.people like to stick with their own lot in whatever way,they have been identified,even though its a silly notion,in the first place.

 

[kunjuppu]

here is an interesting story from tehelka about rani tewari.

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

apparently the brahmins of u.p. still have neanderthal attitudes about dowry. perhaps we stand a good chance if we offer to marry their daughters dowry free and simple marriage?

 

[RVR]

here is an interesting story from tehelka about rani tewari.

Tehelka - India's Independent Weekly News Magazine

apparently the brahmins of u.p. still have neanderthal attitudes about dowry. perhaps we stand a good chance if we offer to marry their daughters dowry free and simple marriage?

Thanks Kunjuppu ji for the link.

I have already written to the author of the article requesting to consider tamil brahmin boys without any dowry menace.

Let us hope some thing works out.

All the best

 

[sangom]

Where? Not in Tamil Nadu.

Dear Shri Sharmah,

I have already indicated that such alliances are happening here in Kerala for Tamil Brahmin boys of this area.

I am a Brahmin first and then only a Tamil. The Brahmin detractors of Tamil Nadu are not going to embrace us because Brahmins marry Non-Brahmins. It would be considered a great success of their program and we would be ridiculed. There will be considerable unfavorable publicity and we would lose whatever respect we still have in the society.

I suppose the time has come to revise our thinking a little. The view that "I am a Brahmin first and then only a Tamil" arises probably because of a sub-conscious feeling of being under a siege and hence the necessity of self-protection. I now start thinking whether this view among the TBs has contributed to the persistent bad blood between the TBs and TNBs as well. (Otherwise the DK/DMK people would have, by now, lost much of the antagonism with which they started their campaign and achieved the aim of grabbing power. Something akin to that happened in Kerala also and the Namboodiris, Pattars etc., who were extremely powerful in the days of royalty, simply effaced themselves from the scene, and there is no rancour in our minds now about all those inevitable happenings or against the Kerala Non-brahmins (KNBs). Perhaps that sort of attitude is what will assuage and ameliorate the situation for TBs in T Nadu, as well.

Now, as an aside, none of us Bs is "brahmin first". Even our Dharmasastras state categorically that we are "SUdra" first and get promoted as brahmin because of karma ('janamanA jAyathE SUdraH karmaNA jAyathE dvijaH'; this is now altered by some to 'janamanA jAyathE SUdraH samskArAth jAyathE dvijaH'). In any case we are all, by birth, only SUdras, and become Brahmin by samskAras and/or karma. So why abhor the same treatment to another NB (SUdra) girl and accept her in our fold?

 

[sangom]

Thanks Kunjuppu ji for the link.

I have already written to the author of the article requesting to consider tamil brahmin boys without any dowry menace.

Let us hope some thing works out.

All the best

Dear Shri RVR,

I also hope that something works out. But at the same time I can tell from personal knowledge that the North Indian Brahmins (NIB) generally have an attitude of condescension towards the South Indian Brahmins, specially when it comes to marriage alliance, who are mocked as "aNDoo guNDoo ThaNDApAni". If an alliance happens between a TB boy and a NIB girl, the best one can hope is that the couple will get along without problem ( and a high income for the boy will be a sort of guarantee for this), but the boy's parents will be persona non grata, especially if they are somewhat conservative and are unable to change to a semi-westernised, semi-mughalised life style which even the ordinary NIBs follow.