Advice to Parents - Arrange for Inter-Brahmin marriage

[sankara_sharmah]

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If you decide to accept any Brahmin as a Bride/Bridegroom, how do you go about it?

One of the ways to get a girl/boy from other Brahmin communities is to advertise in the Hindu and may be another Newspaper in the North and East. Specify any Brahmin. Or may be caste no bar.

The funny reaction to caste no bar is that you get very few replies. The more restrictive you are, you get more replies. Caste no bar will not get any replies from Tamil Brahmins. Not surprisingly, you get no replies from other castes in Tamil Nadu either.

The only replies you get for Caste No bar is from the Inter-Caste parents with either the wife or the husband being a Brahmin.

About any Brahmin advertisements, you do get some replies. But these are almost always from the Upper Middle Class Families from other states.

I will analyze the reasons for this in my next post.

 

[mahabujji]

Take the case of Maharashtrian Brahmins. Their customs and traditions are basically like us. In fact it is difficult to distinguish between a Maharashtrian and Kannada Brahmins.

Even Brahmins from Gadwal have a lot in common with us.

So why do we not widen our search for Brides to include Brahmins from all over India?
Dear Sankara_Sharma Sir,

A good view of yours is respected. But few practical problems.

1. Inside Tamil Brahmins itself there are many subsects. we are still not daring to cross our subsects. so in this fashion, how do we cross from state to state?

2. the brahmins in North of UP, Bihar, west Bengal, North eastern States all are nonveg eaters in a normal family way but in rest all activities they follow as pucca brahmins.

3. Iyer and Iyengar gap is much widened these days (Except a few very high class people marriages) though both are brahmins and reside in a same state.

4. nowadays in all region in brahmin caste, brides are less. bridegrooms are more. so it is delayed awakening.

5. still it is a very good thought. to be considered and to be followed by all


Maha

 

[sankara_sharmah]

There was a programme on Sun TV about the Boys in Namakkal district getting Brides from Kerala. One of the reasons is the female infanticide practiced by these people.

Though our community does not practice it, still it is very much male oriented. Couples who have a Boy as the first child are not very keen to go for the second child. Even in cases where they go for a second child, if the second one is also a Boy they do put a stop. Only if the first two children are girls is there a temptation for a third child hoping for a boy.

The present shortage of girls is the result of this attitude.

Now coming back to advertisements, the poorer section of the population do not reply to ads. They prefer more conventional methods. Again the poorer and lower middle class section of Brahmin are very caste conscious. They never break the laid down conventions.

Again these segments of population do not like to travel outside their home town/district.

So it is almost well neigh impossible to get Brides/Grooms from the poorer/lower middle class section of Brahmins in any state.

The only way this could be changed is for some religious teacher to undertake this job of educating the people.

The fact is that in India most of the religous teachers confine their effort to the middle, upper and rich classes.

 

[RVR]

Wonderful analysis Sankar Sharma sir,

I have also made some points just few minutes back in the thread `naveenaswayamvaram at trivandrum'.

Girls are more empowered now and are performing well. On the contrary our boys waste precious time at the prime time and loose focus.

If some of the social scientists and psychologists in our forum come forward for voluntary service, we can organize counseling for our boys.

Before organizing swayamvaram functions, I also had a wrong notion that present day girls are having more `head weight'. But after conducting few swayamvaram functions, I earnestly feel that our boys have to improve a lot to match the present day girls.

I wish our eminent members contribute more to this thread as lot of interesting points are coming out.

All the best

 

[sankara_sharmah]

This is also a result of strictly following Family Planning. Two children. One of the effects which was never highlighted or even thought of.

The states like Bihar, U.P, M.P and others did not suffer as much because family Planning was not very effective in these states.

Tamil Brahmins as a community practiced Family Planning rigorously.

Talking about family Planning I wonder why our Boys and Girls who have migrated abroad do still follow the small family norm. This is in contrast to the norm in the U.S. Just a thought. They can afford a larger family.

 

[sangom]

Dear Sankara_Sharmah,

The mention of Namakkal boys marrying Kerala girls reminds me of a news item some months ago, saying that due to the virtual non-availability of girls in marriageable age in Punjab, people from there pay huge amounts to the parents of girls from poor (naturally) Haryana households and get her married to their son and make it clear that she will have to be the wife of all the brothers! (It is very costly to find separate girls for each boy!!).

I am located in Trivandrum, Kerala and have a fairly good idea of what the parents of brahmin girls in other cities of this state think nowadays about their daughters' marriage. As you know the TB population in Kerala is confined to some pockets like Trivandrum, Trichur and Palghat only.

Girls from even very poor families (widowed mother doing cooking in other houses, supplying meals, and so on) get educated since it is free up to graduation, I think, for girls, no fees to be paid. They also learn some computer-related course (some even take up Tally, the accounting software, though the fees may be high) and then get a reasonably well-paid job. Their sight is then on an IT sector groom located in some metro city with prospects of going abroad and eventually settling down there. The parents also encourage their daughters in such thinking and the peer interaction further strengthens this.

The underlying psychology is something like,

இங்கெ இருந்து என்னத்தே கண்டோம், பிராம்மணன் என்னு சொன்னா மாத்திரம் போதுமா? வாழ்க்கையை நன்னா வாழணம், அவ்வளவுதான்.

So, I feel it is becoming difficult to find girls from any stratum.

One of my friends is disappointed after two or three years of hectic search for a bride for his son, a B. Tech., who was employed in a semi-urban centre of another state on a moderate salary (around Rs.20,000/=p.m.), now working in a semi-urban centre in Kerala itself on similar income levels, has come to realise the unpleasant truth of the above situation.

I also agree with Sri RVR's observations that our boys (at least some of them) have to understand the social situation and strive doubly hard at the proper time if they want to have a good match in the future.

I find that now girls' parents are even being sort of pestered by parents of boys, right from the time the girl is about 18 or 19, with requests and entreaties for an understanding that so-and-so's daughter will be first considered for their boy as and when the girl's parents start thinking of her marriage!

 

[smishra]

Inter brahmin marriages

I agree with you .I was in libya and came very close to Tamil brahmin family both Aiyyer and aiyangar .I had a freind in Indian oil and he was Siva charcya ...
As a community ( I am saryuparin ) , we are getting smaller .We should widen out.
My wife nephew is marrying to a Tamil brahmin Girl. Our family , a famous sanskrit schaolar tradition , has accepted this marriage as Godess blessing .

 

[RVR]

I agree with you .I was in libya and came very close to Tamil brahmin family both Aiyyer and aiyangar .I had a freind in Indian oil and he was Siva charcya ...
As a community ( I am saryuparin ) , we are getting smaller .We should widen out.
My wife nephew is marrying to a Tamil brahmin Girl. Our family , a famous sanskrit schaolar tradition , has accepted this marriage as Godess blessing .

Sri Mishra,

I just want to know how the north Indian brahmin families will feel about getting married to south Indian brahmin boys.

Since I am one of the organisers of the Swayamvaram function, we can think of conducting a swayamvaram function in a North Indian place inviting brahmin girls of that area to particpate.

I don't know where you are located but if you are in the northern part of India then we request you to take the lead in organising the function. Money is not a problem but there should be willing mindset.
We can bring lot of well placed brahmin boys from South India.

Please consider the above and revert back

All the best

 

[kunjuppu]

smishra,

welcome to the forum. please tell us a wee bit about yourself, for familiarity sake.

as rvr has said, the next big untapped source of girls is north indian brahmins. there is now a lot of migration of north indians to the south, and hopefully south is not considered as a distant point anymore.

sankara, what are the fathers of boys who have not found wives doing? how are they dealing with it from the viewpoint of solution?

kerala pattars have close ties with nambiyars, nairs, menons more than nambudris. this because of old marumakkaththaayam tradition, where a sambandham from a pattar was often sought. so ethnically too, there is a lot of brahmin 'blood' among these groups.

 

[Nara]

... Couples who have a Boy as the first child are not very keen to go for the second child.

[....]

The present shortage of girls is the result of this attitude.

Dear sir, statistically speaking this attitude is more likely to have the opposite effect, i.e. more girls than boys, or at least equal.

Let us consider two cases.

The first case, couples keep producing until they get a boy. Once they get a boy, they stop. This would lead to roughly equal number of boys and girls.

In the second case, where couples stop even if they don't get a boy after a row of X number of girls. Whatever the value of X may be, this case is likely to result in less number of boys than case 1.

So, in the normal course of events, the attitude of producing until a boy child will not result in the ratio getting lopsided.

Unless, couples abort female fetuses or indulge in female infanticide, both of which. hopefully, not common among TBs.

So, I am not convinced there is a lopsided ratio between boys and girls. There must be other reasons for the shortage of girls in swayamvarams, like, girls shunning arranged marriages in higher proportion than boys, or some such reason.

Cheers!

 

[kunjuppu]

nara,

it is my gut feeling that our girls in many cases, opt for out of caste marriages.

as smishra said, he has a tamil brahmin girl married into his family and they consider it as a blessing from the Goddess. what greater invitation and welcome can you expect?

our boys' parents, i think, have a dilemma, which they have to look hard and fast, and pdq for a solution before their boys start losing their teeth, a second time.

 

[C RAVI]

There must be other reasons for the shortage of girls in swayamvarams, like, girls shunning arranged marriages in higher proportion than boys, or some such reason.

Cheers!

No doubt of the reasons, in my opinion Sri Nara ji.

 

[C RAVI]

nara,

it is my gut feeling that our girls in many cases, opt for out of caste marriages.

as smishra said, he has a tamil brahmin girl married into his family and they consider it as a blessing from the Goddess. what greater invitation and welcome can you expect?

our boys' parents, i think, have a dilemma, which they have to look hard and fast, and pdq for a solution before their boys start losing their teeth, a second time.

Sri Kunjuppu ji, you are right, in my opinion.

As I have pointed out long before, Brahmin girls are mostly interested in NB guys and there are plenty of obvious reasons.

They are either scared to be a daughter-in-law of a Brahmin family owing to their liking for cosmopolitan living style or not convinced by the attracting/convincing qualities and the superiority complex of majority of Brahmin guys.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

I am not able to understand the logic. May be not intelligent enough. Let us drop the X. We know that most of the families have 2 children. If all of them have one, boy and one girl it would be equal. But if most of them have two boys it would be lopsided. Which is fact.

The caste wise census figures when they are ready would reveal the lopsided sex ratio.

Take the advertisements in Hindu, Mangaiyar Malar, Kalyana Malai etc. The number of advertisements for Brides is almost double that of those looking for Grooms. Of course you could always argue that Girls need not advertise. Most people advertise because, they would like to have a choice. Get the Best so to say. That is what we did for al the Girls in our house.

 

[sankara_sharmah]

People in this forum are all agitated about Brahmin Girls marrying non-brahmin boys.

Why do they do so?

It is very simple. For a girl who is from a poor/lower middle class family, it is difficult to get a good husband locally. Good grooms are all from Metros and an unknown quantity. They also have to shift to unknown places.

At the same time Good Grooms are available among Non-Brahmins from Good families locally. They do not have to shift to far off places.

They also know that they would be treated like a Mahalakshmi by the Non-Brahmins. This treatment can not be guaranteed among the Metro Brahmins who are an unknown quantity. And Brahmins are not known for their forward views on women. Maximum restrictions have been placed on Brahmin women when compared to women of other forward communities.

Given these facts our girls plan Love Marriages. Hook the poor guys so to say.

Not surprising. Hats off to them.

The Brahmin Boys can not compete against these Non_Brahmins. Brahmin Boys have to go to Metros to earn a good income. But the non-Brahmins with farming and commerce can earn as much locally.

Another important fact is Looks. The expectation of a Non-Brahmin boy is lower than that of the Brahmin Boys.

 

[sangom]

Sri Mishra,

I just want to know how the north Indian brahmin families will feel about getting married to south Indian brahmin boys.All the best

I feel from personal knowledge (my daughter-in-law is a brahmin from Indore) that the North Indian brahmins who are modern, would not like to have a Madrasi daughter-in-law but they may not object to their daughters marrying Madrasi brahmin boys. The reason, I suspect is heavy dowry still prevailing. Those who live in villages in N. India are still very conservative in their outlook.

 

[Nara]

.. If all of them have one, boy and one girl it would be equal. But if most of them have two boys it would be lopsided. Which is fact.

This would be the case only if people get to control the sex of the baby delivered, as in terminating pregnancy or bring it to term based on the sex of the fetus, determined through illegal ultrasound.

If you let nature take its course, then the ratio will never get lopsided irrespective of how many children couples have. For every two-boy scenario there will be as many two-girl cases. Cases of a string of girls precede a boy will get compensated by the cases where boys come first.

In the absence of sex-based termination of pregnancy the ratio will never get lopsided and this can be mathematically proved.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

kerala pattars have close ties with nambiyars, nairs, menons more than nambudris. this because of old marumakkaththaayam tradition, where a sambandham from a pattar was often sought. so ethnically too, there is a lot of brahmin 'blood' among these groups.

This is not correct, IMO. The "sambandham" with Namboodiri, that too from a well-to do "mana" was almost always preferred for the financial benefits which it would give, and, secondly, the Royal households (other than the king's immediate household) always had Namboodiris as their sambandhakkarars and so that was the in-thing. Pattars were mostly poor to middle class except some pockets like "Mancompu" which had very rich TB landlords, and so cases of Pattars having sambandham was rare, even if many might have longed for it.

 

[RVR]

I am not able to understand the logic. May be not intelligent enough. Let us drop the X. We know that most of the families have 2 children. If all of them have one, boy and one girl it would be equal. But if most of them have two boys it would be lopsided. Which is fact.

The caste wise census figures when they are ready would reveal the lopsided sex ratio.

Take the advertisements in Hindu, Mangaiyar Malar, Kalyana Malai etc. The number of advertisements for Brides is almost double that of those looking for Grooms. Of course you could always argue that Girls need not advertise. Most people advertise because, they would like to have a choice. Get the Best so to say. That is what we did for al the Girls in our house.

Sharma Sir,

In my generation ( Let us call it first generation), I have four sisters and one brother i.e totally six.

In the second generation there are eight girls and five boys (Children of brother/sisters)

Again in the third generation, so far there are five girls and three boys.

I am just wondering how girls could be shortage.

I think if we collect statistics of our members families here generation wise, we can have a broad idea about our community.

It is worthwhile collecting statistics.

All the best

 

[sankara_sharmah]

In my generation we are four boys and two girls.

My fathers/mother's generation: Nine boys and three girls.

The next generation: Eight boys and five girls.

The latest generation so far: Three boys and two girls. Most do not have any children so far. A bit confusing as my eldest sister has a great-grand son where as my youngest brother's son is not old enough to get married.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

smishra,

welcome to the forum. please tell us a wee bit about yourself, for familiarity sake.

as rvr has said, the next big untapped source of girls is north indian brahmins. there is now a lot of migration of north indians to the south, and hopefully south is not considered as a distant point anymore.

sankara, what are the fathers of boys who have not found wives doing? how are they dealing with it from the viewpoint of solution?

kerala pattars have close ties with nambiyars, nairs, menons more than nambudris. this because of old marumakkaththaayam tradition, where a sambandham from a pattar was often sought. so ethnically too, there is a lot of brahmin 'blood' among these groups.

sambandham> kerala pattars may be more than the fewer namboodri`s. so they got the more chance to win the race.
in early and before 1900s.

even though there is mix of blood ,not much bondage in relationships.

 

[AnanthaNarayanan]

in general brahmin parents are soft in nature and giving all freedom to there sons and daughters. mostly all are highly educated selfreliant by themself. there no barier for freedom of expression and speech to the son or daughter in the home.

finally if boy or girly propose some one in the home ultimately, parents will slide towards them only. what soever they are there own blood.

now everwhere all types of mixed marriages are happeing with in hindu and out side also , almost all families have this some one or other related to them. once marriage is over they are become as our dear ones only. then slowley starting practiseing our customs way of life etc.these all depends upon the will and wish of the couples.

i know on uncle got married to a x`an lady(mami)she live like a real brahmin mami.
she use to observe and take part in all religious and family custom functions too

 

[sankara_sharmah]

There is a tendency to mock and ridicule the parents of Boys who are not fortunate enough to get Brides from the community.

Their only fault is looking for a Bride within the community.

If a Lorry Driver in Namakkal can get a Bride definitely the Brahmin Boys who are better placed can get a Bride. A bride who could be more of a wife than many Tamil Brahmin girls.

There will be a number of Brokers who can arrange a marriage with girls form Kerala. The only thing you may have to give up is the so called Brahminism. Anyway that has not benefited the present generation in any way.

It is only a question of time.

By looking at Brahmins from other places, we try to preserve our self respect as a Brahmin.

If Punjabis can get Bihari Brides there is no reason why Tamil Brahmins can not get Bihari Brahmin Brides.

May be we should get in touch with the Brokers who arrange for Brides in Bihar. It may be worthwhile to contact even the Namakkal Brokers.

 

[RVR]

Sex ratio in India is 933 females per 1000 males.

Census of India - India at a Glance : Sex Ratio

Fully literate states like Kerala and Union Terriotory of Puducherry has more than 1000 females per 1000 males.

With further improvement in literacy, the ratio is bound to improve further.

In Tamilnadu, ratio is 987 females per 1000 males.

Demographics of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only problem in Tamilnadu is people like our present CM MK practices polygamy and the leader of the opposition JJ is not officially married.

I think there is nothing wrong with the ratios at the state level but the problem is only at field level.

All the best

 

[happyhindu]

Sex ratio in India is 933 females per 1000 males.

Census of India - India at a Glance : Sex Ratio

Fully literate states like Kerala and Union Terriotory of Puducherry has more than 1000 females per 1000 males.

With further improvement in literacy, the ratio is bound to improve further.

In Tamilnadu, ratio is 987 females per 1000 males.

Demographics of Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Only problem in Tamilnadu is people like our present CM MK practices polygamy and the leader of the opposition JJ is not officially married.

I think there is nothing wrong with the ratios at the state level but the problem is only at field level.

All the best

I have deleted a previous post on chemical pollutants causing fewer female births.

This post is a single post not intended to start a conversation. There will be no further replies on it from my end.

Cudn't help thinking what connection do 2 individuals (one polygamous, another officially unmarried )- have got to do with sex ratio of entire tamil nadu.