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Why South Indian Brahmins are intelligent?

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,
Change in thinking for some can even be instant and for some others years.
We should not measure change in the time matrix.

Did you see the Olympics?
A runner from China ran in the 100meter finals..though he didnt win but he became the first Asian male to run in a 100 meter finals which is usually dominated by those of African and Jamaican ancestory.

When he ran in the finals the tabloid carried the headlines that " Gene theory is challenged"

No doubt his coach was an African American but still gene theory did not hold as good.

Did you see some African Americans star runners who didnt win the gold as expected?
Most of them were having mental health issues and could not give the best as before.

Again why? Cos of environmental factors.
Atheletes from many countries were more into uploading pics on Instagram and got distracted.

So you see no one human is specialized ..they become specialized.
Also we have been calling intelligence as only cerebral intelligence.

There are many types of intelligence.
Intelligence finally is a skill.
The word Acharya means one who imparts a skill.

So skill can range from cerebral to non cerebral intelligence.

We make a big blunder by limiting intelligence to the brain and intellect.
Our entire body has its specialized intelligence.
Cardiac cells, renal cells differ in function yet have their inherent intelligence encoded as bio memory.

I have stopped calling " non living "things as inanimate and inert as even a stone has universal consciousness pervading it.

What if we are not aware of network of perception in a stone?
There is so much we dont know..so for me everything is pulsating with consciousness and quantum potential of intelligence..its either you make it work for you or you make it work againsts you.
Ok. Good point. What we call intelligence is associated with brain. But as you say everything is there in the act.

Even in that case they fall into typical categories depending on how they respond to forces. I mean whether they are able to cope up or not.

We do know very very little about reality especially the details but if we consider the spiritual knowledge at our disposal we seem to possess a pretty good grip about it at a very high level.

We need to act based on what we know. If someone does not trust that knowledge he is basically wanting to act in the dark.

In my view given enough spiritual knowledge we need to work on expanding it and get into the details. Though I am not saying that is the only way to knowledge. I am just stating my personal view of what I think is a goldmine that is largely untapped.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Ok. Good point. What we call intelligence is associated with brain. But as you say everything is there in the act.

Even in that case they fall into typical categories depending on how they respond to forces. I mean whether they are able to cope up or not.

We do know very very little about reality especially the details but if we consider the spiritual knowledge at our disposal we seem to possess a pretty good grip about it at a very high level.

We need to act based on what we know. If someone does not trust that knowledge he is basically wanting to act in the dark.

In my view given enough spiritual knowledge we need to work on expanding it and get into the details. Though I am not saying that is the only way to knowledge. I am just stating my personal view of what I think is a goldmine that is largely untapped.

Each person will react accordingly in any situation based on what their understanding is at that moment.

Some who when younger who have been " reactive" and rigid but lets say they experience life and widen their perspective they would be less " reactive" and more balanced.

Lets take the example of Angulimala and Ratnakara( Valmiki)
They transformed from life of crime to life of prime spiritual enlightenment.

They did not identify with their former behavior cos it had been rendered inactive and no URL access to that mode of behavior.

This holds good for all humans.
Any trait be it so called genetic or environmental can be transcended at any given time.

So what you say as catergories and how they respond is also only to that particular time.

There was a case here before of a person who used to take drugs and did petty crimes and landed in jail.
In jail he started following Christisnity and when he was released from the jail he became a volunteer worker for the Church.
One day at a beach outing, the pastor of the Church got swept away by waves and the this person jumped into the water and saved the pastor but sadly he drowned and died after saving the pastor.

Those who knew him said he always felt he owed his life to the pastor for transforming him.

So you see?
How any reaction changes?
Nothing is fixed.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Each person will react accordingly in any situation based on what their understanding is at that moment.

Some who when younger who have been " reactive" and rigid but lets say they experience life and widen their perspective they would be less " reactive" and more balanced.

Lets take the example of Angulimala and Ratnakara( Valmiki)
They transformed from life of crime to life of prime spiritual enlightenment.

They did not identify with their former behavior cos it had been rendered inactive and no URL access to that mode of behavior.

This holds good for all humans.
Any trait be it so called genetic or environmental can be transcended at any given time.

So what you say as catergories and how they respond is also only to that particular time.

There was a case here before of a person who used to take drugs and did petty crimes and landed in jail.
In jail he started following Christisnity and when he was released from the jail he became a volunteer worker for the Church.
One day at a beach outing, the pastor of the Church got swept away by waves and the this person jumped into the water and saved the pastor but sadly he drowned and died after saving the pastor.

Those who knew him said he always felt he owed his life to the pastor for transforming him.

So you see?
How any reaction changes?
Nothing is fixed.
Renuka

Change will happen. That's a prime reason for rebirths so that past experiences are used. But within the framework of a single birth we mostly have to contend with all types of people but mostly obstinate ones because of the nature of the yuga.

I do concede that changes will happen with everyone and it will happen for good ultimately.
 

cm124534

Active member
Ok nice. If they are really so intelligent, can they please opt to see the political posts, and check out my posts in that section? No point patting each others' back here. I have a lot to say and show...actually, there is a lot i want to say to Brahmins and non-tamils. I want to test out the responses.

Neraya pappan...verum summa garvam illa...thala enga kaal enga nu puriyadha alavu garvathla aaduraan. this is very very wrong. their next gen kids will be unbearable for other people. and nowadays those other people are coming up too. they might plan for sweet revenge. pls have your feet on the ground.

Thanks.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Renuka

Change will happen. That's a prime reason for rebirths so that past experiences are used. But within the framework of a single birth we mostly have to contend with all types of people but mostly obstinate ones because of the nature of the yuga.

I do concede that changes will happen with everyone and it will happen for good ultimately.
I agree with you but at times placing the " effects" of the Yuga makes us sort of blame everything else except ourselves.
You surely must be knowing that time is only relative and time can be transcended.

One gets out of the matrix of time when he experiences the state of equilibrium balance, time has no effect on him..so naturally the effect of the Yuga would also have no effect.

How do we approach this subject?
Have we not realized Masters have always preached introspection?
Either by Atma Vichara or by surrender.

Both Atma Vichara and surrender ignores all external factors be it people we deal with or the effect of the Yuga.

Its just like when we are in deep sleep ..do we perceive the effect of the Yuga?
Nope!
We actually transcend the effects of time and the yuga on daily basis without even realizing it..so we have to strive to experience the state of deep sleep even when awake,..this is what is called Prajna( Constant Intergrated Awareness)

Bhagavad Gita 2: 69

"What all beings consider as day is the night of ignorance for the wise, and what all creatures see as night is the day for the introspective sage"

Most people think this verse is about staying awake and not sleeping.
If we try to decipher this verse it would reflect " the introspective ones are " asleep" to non awareness and " awake" to constant intergrated awareness.

So you see, Yuga effects are not of prime importance.
As written earlier, when we shift the blame elsewhere we do NOT introspect and remain unaware.
 

Nemmara Pattar

New member
"I do concede that changes will happen with everyone and it will happen for good ultimately. Regards, -- Srinivasan Vaidyaraman"

"I agree with you. -- Renuka Gold Member"

Declarations of "universal truths" without qualifications sometimes expose weaknessesn in logic and reality.

May I humbly submit that the changes to Tibet consequent on its forcible occupation by Communist China and the change to Afghanistan consequent on the recent victory of the Taliban were not necesssarily "for good ultimately"?

Ler me refrain from dwelling on the occupation of India's Aksai Chin by Communist China and its claims to India's Arunachal Pradesh as "southern Tibet" and to 90% of the entire South China Sea as its ancestral territory.
 

renuka

Well-known member
"I do concede that changes will happen with everyone and it will happen for good ultimately. Regards, -- Srinivasan Vaidyaraman"

"I agree with you. -- Renuka Gold Member"

Declarations of "universal truths" without qualifications sometimes expose weaknessesn in logic and reality.

May I humbly submit that the changes to Tibet consequent on its forcible occupation by Communist China and the change to Afghanistan consequent on the recent victory of the Taliban were not necesssarily "for good ultimately"?

Ler me refrain from dwelling on the occupation of India's Aksai Chin by Communist China and its claims to India's Arunachal Pradesh as "southern Tibet" and to 90% of the entire South China Sea as its ancestral territory.
Dear Sir,
I think you misunderstood the context Sravna and I were talking about.
Sravna was talking about change at an intellect level and at the level of perception.

Thank you for adding to our discussion for bringing in changes of a invading level by other countries.
Sravna and I were not talking about change due to invasion and neither Sravna or me were declaring any Universal Truth.

If you read what I wrote, you would notice I said " Change is the only constant", with that understanding there isnt scope for any rigid declaration of any kind

All of us are here to express our opinions and we dont expect everyone to agree with us.

If we look at what Sravna wrote from your point of view it is certainly invalid but keeping in mind the context Sravna and I were discussing, what he wrote is totally valid.

Let's strive to not feel anyone is " without qualifications"..not that it really matters but take time to get to know Sravna or me in the exchange here since many years( more than 10 yrs in forum) then you decide if what you said is valid or not.

Whatever you decide is surely within your personal right but take some time then decide.

Regards
Renuka
 

sravna

Well-known member
I totally agree with Renuka's response to Shri. Nemmara Pattar.

Sir, you have taken what was being discussed out of context. If you read it again you will agree with Renuka and me.
 

sravna

Well-known member
I am going to do a sort of diversion here but I think some of it may be pertinent in the larger context.

No denying that Brahmins are intelligent especially when it comes to grasping of the big picture. It may be in part to their genes and in part to their training. This big picture thinking is not as valued among others.

Even when it comes to scientists the type of big picture thinking that dominated ancient Indians is missing. It has to do partly with the philosophy of science but philosophy itself is created by people.

Easterners especially the Brahmins of India have given a great wealth of knowledge. The modern knowledge developed largely by the Westerners is borne out if a limited perspective of reality but is what currently rules.

The current direction of knowledge is totally towards the western thinking of reality. The influence of West so deeply entrenched in every aspect of life this seems impossible to change.

But I strongly believe with the beliefs that there is only physical realm, focus on only the tangible and what satisfy the senses happen. The result is practice of utter materialism to the detriment of subtler aspects of life.

But whom are these materialists kidding? Do not love, compassion, fairness and so on have real effects on people? Materialism tries to totally take away those from our experience and makes it hollow. If the above finer values have real effects should we not spend time on them especially because their effects are positive and constructive.

If they have real effects their real existence cannrot be denied. We need to reorient our thinking so that we grant real existence to even the intangibles and unseen.

In the context of the current times it is essential because we now only believe in something that exists. If love or compassion are thought of as real existant energies the current thinking towards them will change.

We will understand that nature has a real place for them and a real and positive role to play in the lives of humans. If instruments cannot measure them we should accept our self does indeed detect and measure them because through its own instrument of mind.

The fact that we are able to feel the love or compassion or other higher values itself indicates that there is something higher in us than the physical body.

The current limited perspective of reality needs to expand. I desperately hope it will. At any rate scientists cannot remain adamant for long as they will be forced to truth by the need to resolve deep contradictions.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Ok nice. If they are really so intelligent, can they please opt to see the political posts, and check out my posts in that section? No point patting each others' back here. I have a lot to say and show...actually, there is a lot i want to say to Brahmins and non-tamils. I want to test out the responses.

Neraya pappan...verum summa garvam illa...thala enga kaal enga nu puriyadha alavu garvathla aaduraan. this is very very wrong. their next gen kids will be unbearable for other people. and nowadays those other people are coming up too. they might plan for sweet revenge. pls have your feet on the ground.

Thanks.
Sir I would like to point out that your language does not uphold right decorum. If you would like to engage in a healthy debate you need to do it in a respectful way
 

renuka

Well-known member
Ok nice. If they are really so intelligent, can they please opt to see the political posts, and check out my posts in that section? No point patting each others' back here. I have a lot to say and show...actually, there is a lot i want to say to Brahmins and non-tamils. I want to test out the responses.

Neraya pappan...verum summa garvam illa...thala enga kaal enga nu puriyadha alavu garvathla aaduraan. this is very very wrong. their next gen kids will be unbearable for other people. and nowadays those other people are coming up too. they might plan for sweet revenge. pls have your feet on the ground.

Thanks.
Dear cm12,

Can you paste the link to the political thread..I cant seem to find it.
 

cm124534

Active member
Sir I would like to point out that your language does not uphold right decorum. If you would like to engage in a healthy debate you need to do it in a respectful way
lol why is it always about decorum....nothing functional? verum perumaya mattum kaapathikanum. i want to disrupt, not debate.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Sir it is also about being functional. That does not mean decency can be thrown to the winds. What do you want to disrupt Sir?
 

sravna

Well-known member
By functional if it be meant something useful in day to day problems, technology has done a terrible job. Indeed it has increased comfort but to a much greater extent it has diminished people's mind. The net effect is it has only amplified the problems faced by mankind. The crux of this problem is our mind itself.

If our mind is functioning properly right science would be pursued and right use of science would be happening too. Mind is the real monster. It has to be set right first and that was the main focus of the ancient Indian knowledge.

Compared to the monstrosity of the mind problem, the technological developments is a dwarf. Please science and technology enthusiasts nothing much to really boast about them and it is worse till when you are trying to pull down our own knowledge. It is truly ludicrous when people do that.

If spirituality is all of space and time, our science is just planet earth and barely 500 years in time.
 

cm124534

Active member
By functional if it be meant something useful in day to day problems, technology has done a terrible job. Indeed it has increased comfort but to a much greater extent it has diminished people's mind. The net effect is it has only amplified the problems faced by mankind. The crux of this problem is our mind itself.

If our mind is functioning properly right science would be pursued and right use of science would be happening too. Mind is the real monster. It has to be set right first and that was the main focus of the ancient Indian knowledge.

Compared to the monstrosity of the mind problem, the technological developments is a dwarf. Please science and technology enthusiasts nothing much to really boast about them and it is worse till when you are trying to pull down our own knowledge. It is truly ludicrous when people do that.

If spirituality is all of space and time, our science is just planet earth and barely 500 years in time.
vala vala vala vala vala vala...i meant one hundred years of brahmin hate in tamil country. and how it is playing out till today. check out my thread.
 

renuka

Well-known member
I am going to do a sort of diversion here but I think some of it may be pertinent in the larger context.

No denying that Brahmins are intelligent especially when it comes to grasping of the big picture. It may be in part to their genes and in part to their training. This big picture thinking is not as valued among others.

Even when it comes to scientists the type of big picture thinking that dominated ancient Indians is missing. It has to do partly with the philosophy of science but philosophy itself is created by people.

Easterners especially the Brahmins of India have given a great wealth of knowledge. The modern knowledge developed largely by the Westerners is borne out if a limited perspective of reality but is what currently rules.

The current direction of knowledge is totally towards the western thinking of reality. The influence of West so deeply entrenched in every aspect of life this seems impossible to change.

But I strongly believe with the beliefs that there is only physical realm, focus on only the tangible and what satisfy the senses happen. The result is practice of utter materialism to the detriment of subtler aspects of life.

But whom are these materialists kidding? Do not love, compassion, fairness and so on have real effects on people? Materialism tries to totally take away those from our experience and makes it hollow. If the above finer values have real effects should we not spend time on them especially because their effects are positive and constructive.

If they have real effects their real existence cannrot be denied. We need to reorient our thinking so that we grant real existence to even the intangibles and unseen.

In the context of the current times it is essential because we now only believe in something that exists. If love or compassion are thought of as real existant energies the current thinking towards them will change.

We will understand that nature has a real place for them and a real and positive role to play in the lives of humans. If instruments cannot measure them we should accept our self does indeed detect and measure them because through its own instrument of mind.

The fact that we are able to feel the love or compassion or other higher values itself indicates that there is something higher in us than the physical body.

The current limited perspective of reality needs to expand. I desperately hope it will. At any rate scientists cannot remain adamant for long as they will be forced to truth by the need to resolve deep contradictions.
Dear Sravna,

Kindly dont get me wrong.
I do understand Brahmins are intellectually inclined.

If we make a comparison with Chinese in my country.
They are very knowledge oriented.
Their Chinese medium schools are known to train students to think at every angle, result based and they are very good at maths.
At the same time they learn their own language and culture.

Many grow up to become succesful bussiness men, accountants and professionals.

Those who are Buddhist never fail to practice their daily prayers and they attend Dharma school on Sundays and also learn Vipasana meditation once a little older.

Then they learn musical instruments especially the piano( out here indians and chinese love their kids to play the piano, i myself play the piano, straight flute and harmonica)

Outwardly all these life style by Chinese is also similar to Brahmins.
Some who are strict Buddhist are vegan, no milk, no yogurt, no onion and garlic.

So my point is..why do you feel intellectual capacity is only the crest jewel of Brahmins as an added advantage?
You are right to say Brahmins are mostly intelligent..but as humans none of us can generalize and be attached to the idea that some by virtue of birth can see the bigger picture and others not so much able to see it or value it?

Isnt this a bit biased? Why this attachment to bodily functions?
Thinking and intellect is but a bodily function.
Analytical perception and intellectually inclined in many aspects is also seen in me( note..i am not bragging)..so how would feel about my intellect?
Would you feel i dont have the capability to " see" the " bigger picture"?

Honestly for me i dont even think there is any bigger picture or smaller picture..the intellect can be a boon and also a bane.

A boon as in it can help analysis and be helpful to society( like all those scientists who made Covid vaccine)..and at the same time the intellect can be a bane where one falls in love with its capabilities and rigid ideas and be totally divorced from gnosis( the art of knowing)

What say you?
I am open to constructive criticism, so you can give me a truly honest answer.
 
Last edited:

Nemmara Pattar

New member
My sincere thanks to Srimathi Renuka and to Sri "Savna" for their swift responses.

Have tried to read some past posts for enlightenment.

Srimathi Renuka wrote:-

"(We were talking about) change at an intellect level and at the level of perception."

and

"We have been (wrongly?) calling intelligence as only cerebral intelligence.

"There are many types of intelligence. Intelligence finally is a skill. So skill can range from cerebral to non cerebral intelligence. We make a big blunder by limiting intelligence to the brain and intellect. Our entire body has its specialized intelligence. Cardiac cells, renal cells differ in function yet have their inherent intelligence encoded as bio memory. Even a stone has universal consciousness pervading it."


Once one labels intelligence as a mere skill, one comes up against the situation where additional skills can be acquired, such as a carpenter learning brick-laying, a typist learning automobile repairing, a barber learning how to drive a truck, a policeman learning jewellery-making, a doctor becoming a lawyer, and so on.

Intelligence in humans, on the other hand might well be something innate and unique, perhaps divinely bestowed and not confined "to the brain and intellect" nor to mere "perception". The flashes of inspiration experienced by our rishis (and sometimes even by ourselves) can perhaps be attributed to a "super-intelligence" resident within, and part of the jeevaathma?

Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a motivational theory in psychology comprising a five-tier model of human needs, often depicted as hierarchical levels within a pyramid.

From the bottom of the hierarchy upwards, the needs are: physiological (food, sex and clothing), safety (from predators and vagaries of nature), love and belonging needs (friendship, marriage, family), esteem, and self-actualization (jnyaanam).

As to cardiac and renal cells having intelligence "as bio-memory" and stones having "universal consciousness", these require closer examination.

In between humans and stones, we have trees, plants, grasses. Do occurences of heliotropism and of photosynthesis constitute demonstration of intelligence? Or of bio-memory?

Excuse me for being rather sceptical.

Are we in danger of interpreting sensory perception and instinctive response to injury by spontaneous repair attempts as intelligence, inherent, normal or specialised? Is cell-division within a foetus due to intelligence?

Extending this analogy to trees and plants, do re-growth of damaged bark, re-sprouting of trimmed branches and lawns, emergence of seedlings and saplings from seeds, constitute intelligence in some form? Or even instinct?

Turning now to stones, we know that, depending on the metallic content, stones do change colour. Do chemkical reactions constitute existence of consciousness, universal or specific, much less a type of (non-cerebral?) intelligence?

The sea waves foam, so does soap in my hands and on my body when washing and bathing -- evidence of consciousness, of non-cerebral intelligence?

I shall not go on to discuss and analyse vulcanism; earthquakes; germination of seeds; nest-building; predator-prey relationship; planetary movements; tides and gravitation; thunder and lightning; feminine instincts; joeys and kangaroos/marsupials.

Srimathi Renuka wrote:-

'I said " Change is the only constant", with that understanding there isnt scope for any rigid declaration of any kind.'

Unless I am mistaken, it was the pre-Socrates Greek philospher Heraclitus who said:-

"All things flow, nothing abides. You cannot step into the same river twice, for the waters are continually flowing on. Nothing is permanent except change."

Why, if so, make the declarations that "There are many types of intelligence. Intelligence finally is a skill. So skill can range from cerebral to non cerebral intelligence. We make a big blunder by limiting intelligence to the brain and intellect."?

My sincere thanks again to Srimathi Renuka and to Sri "Savna".
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Renuka

If you really want an honest answer there is no denying the fact that people are different. I classify them broadly as one inclined towards materialism and the other who are not. We have to accept this.

The honest opinion again is I do not think one is superior to the other. As I said in an earlier post people are different by design in the physical reality so they co-operate and learn from one another because none of us know everything. The final outcome will be a harmonious union of both the fundamental types of thinking.

So it is ok to be different but one is not superior to the other.
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Sir I would like to point out that your language does not uphold right decorum. If you would like to engage in a healthy debate you need to do it in a respectful way
Sorry. Semantics and syntax do not match, but the underlying truth(logically) remains valid. This is not a father- son talk, rather to express what one perceives. Expressing precisely so that every one can understand and are on the same plane is almost impossible. Let the ideas flow, let us take what is good or make sense to re-calibrate our experiences. When you get upset, that means mental maturity is far away. After all, when you insult GOD" do you have yes, did I not pray etc.," He/She never responds back and silently allow the emotion to go down.
There is another way to state, only those can express that uphold right decorum should write here. No more than 5 people will be left.
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Dear Sravna,

Kindly dont get me wrong.
I do understand Brahmins are intellectually inclined.

If we make a comparison with Chinese in my country.
They are very knowledge oriented.
Their Chinese medium schools are known to train students to think at every angle, result based and they are very good at maths.
At the same time they learn their own language and culture.

Many grow up to become succesful bussiness men, accountants and professionals.

Those who are Buddhist never fail to practice their daily prayers and they attend Dharma school on Sundays and also learn Vipasana meditation once a little older.

Then they learn musical instruments especially the piano( out here indians and chinese love their kids to play the piano, i myself play the piano, straight flute and harmonica)

Outwardly all these life style by Chinese is also similar to Brahmins.
Some who are strict Buddhist are vegan, no milk, no yogurt, no onion and garlic.

So my point is..why do you feel intellectual capacity is only the crest jewel of Brahmins as an added advantage?
You are right to say Brahmins are mostly intelligent..but as humans none of us can generalize and be attached to the idea that some by virtue of birth can see the bigger picture and others not so much able to see it or value it?

Isnt this a bit biased? Why this attachment to bodily functions?
Thinking and intellect is but a bodily function.
Analytical perception and intellectually inclined in many aspects is also seen in me( note..i am not bragging)..so how would feel about my intellect?
Would you feel i dont have the capability to " see" the " bigger picture"?

Honestly for me i dont even think there is any bigger picture or smaller picture..the intellect can be a boon and also a bane.

A boon as in it can help analysis and be helpful to society( like all those scientists who made Covid vaccine)..and at the same time the intellect can be a bane where one falls in love with its capabilities and rigid ideas and be totally divorced from gnosis( the art of knowing)

What say you?
I am open to constructive criticism, so you can give me a truly honest answer.
"So my point is..why do you feel intellectual capacity is only the crest jewel of Brahmins as an added advantage?". (1)It is because for the first time, people who vowed poverty, agreed to beg only in five houses (and if they get any thing) to eat, but teach others- real Brahman Dharma is dead. When they begged, they did not say that"we will beg only in 5 Brahman houses". So, due to British and later local goonda rulers, the first step is to find way to survive. Thus, all the intellectual wealth is spent to be financially secure. (2) When our ancestors married their cousins because of their small group in villages (without today's' transport system - I had walked 12 miles once), have now moved away to cities (about 75+%) have to find mates outside the clan. Those who borrowed to make their sons to go to college by borrowing money, had demanded dowry from the girl's parent (to pay of the debts and also money to get their daughters married). I am not suggesting it is right, but my survey of about 200 random Brahman families shared this view. (3) The old generation, clinked to some part of the system – horoscope for marriage but not realized that 'dowry” is not part of our Sastras. A friend of mine's grand mother told me a few years back that “Tattta (her husband) paid Rs 250/- as dowry. So she insisted not to get dowry when she got her 4 sons married. Can we find such people now. Dowry is a social and status history now!. (4). We never had mental medical help for our women. If you read ( I am not sure about the authenticity) Rish's wife were treated nicely excepting Gauthamar badly dealt with Akalya. But, rest treated them as life partner -Arthangini. Do we do it now? Do we get mental counseling to our women? Do we find out why they are stressed out?

(5) When a Brahmin woman becomes widow, now we pounce on her properties but not worry about her or her children ? Historical times, the family took care of them. Due smaller society, they forced widowhood as a GOD given punishment and refused remarriage. Is Sastras says that cruelty be part of Brahmins' life? Anyway, I am just listing all these intricate, slow moving societal changes have entered in typical Brahmins and none of that could be controlled by any one even Shankaracharya, as Hindu religion is not an organized top-down system.

Whether we agree or not, all the complex changes have forced the current generation to gravitate towards materialistic world, since there is no living Brahmin community exits as a typical Brahminical society. True, there are a few families, extremely minority that exists but are not significant to change things. Western studies have shown, to be successful, 3.5% of the total population should participate in meaningful changes. Only three such events in the world had done that and rest have failed.

I am not asking you to agree or disagree, but the answers are complex. This is not an attack on you!
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka

If you really want an honest answer there is no denying the fact that people are different. I classify them broadly as one inclined towards materialism and the other who are not. We have to accept this.

The honest opinion again is I do not think one is superior to the other. As I said in an earlier post people are different by design in the physical reality so they co-operate and learn from one another because none of us know everything. The final outcome will be a harmonious union of both the fundamental types of thinking.

So it is ok to be different but one is not superior to the other.
Dear Sravna,
If you note my earlier reply, there isnt indication or usage of the word superiority anywhere.

The word which was used was biased and attachment and bodily functions of thinking.

People may differ but they are in constant flux too as with entire existence.

So broad classification is indeed not too accurate.

It might just give us a sense of achievment by thinking some are materialistic and some are spiritually inclined through a receptive intellect.

These classifications of human beings is best not done by us humans because this is where none of us know reality.

Even in the Varna ashrama system any Varna does his Karma and only if the Karma is not done for fruits of action it is rendered pure.

All other forms of wishing for some phala shruti itself is considered materialism.

Materialism isnt just limited to money or status or power, the idea of thinking that some humans are the " seers of the big picture" itself is materialism because one exerts ownership over the prized jewel of his intellect.

The question is always " Who am I?"

So it calls for introspection..if you feel you have the capacity to be spiritual and able to perceive the " bigger picture" , well and good and work on it for that is your Dharma BUT that does not mean all others who share the same Varna as you are similar to you.

You can see that in society where some Brahmins have taken a different life style which is in accordance to their current demands.

I hope you get what I mean..that is anything is individualized and not generalized.

Take an example in India itself,
Dara Shikoh and Aurangzeb were brothers.
Dara was learned and translated upanishads to Persian.
He wrote a master piece called Majmal Bahrain( meeting of the two seas) as a comparison between spiritual dimensions of Islam and Advaita philosophy.

He was the actual heir to the throne as he was older but Aurangzeb beheaded him.

So how do you explain their difference..Dara the saintly and Aurangzeb the ruthless.
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Dear Sravna,
If you note my earlier reply, there isnt indication or usage of the word superiority anywhere.

The word which was used was biased and attachment and bodily functions of thinking.

People may differ but they are in constant flux too as with entire existence.

So broad classification is indeed not too accurate.

It might just give us a sense of achievment by thinking some are materialistic and some are spiritually inclined through a receptive intellect.

These classifications of human beings is best not done by us humans because this is where none of us know reality.

Even in the Varna ashrama system any Varna does his Karma and only if the Karma is not done for fruits of action it is rendered pure.

All other forms of wishing for some phala shruti itself is considered materialism.

Materialism isnt just limited to money or status or power, the idea of thinking that some humans are the " seers of the big picture" itself is materialism because one exerts ownership over the prized jewel of his intellect.

The question is always " Who am I?"

So it calls for introspection..if you feel you have the capacity to be spiritual and able to perceive the " bigger picture" , well and good and work on it for that is your Dharma BUT that does not mean all others who share the same Varna as you are similar to you.

You can see that in society where some Brahmins have taken a different life style which is in accordance to their current demands.

I hope you get what I mean..that is anything is individualized and not generalized.

Take an example in India itself,
Dara Shikoh and Aurangzeb were brothers.
Dara was learned and translated upanishads to Persian.
He wrote a master piece called Majmal Bahrain( meeting of the two seas) as a comparison between spiritual dimensions of Islam and Advaita philosophy.

He was the actual heir to the throne as he was older but Aurangzeb beheaded him.

So how do you explain their difference..Dara the saintly and Aurangzeb the ruthless.
Nice. What you have indicated is the Psychological image of each one is different due to genetic, envornmental, proverty, curelty, strees when was in mother's womb... . So, standard can be established and if done, it is an ideal mathematical model that can not be implemented because without errors in the system, with on error the entire system will die. So, we have a robust system but the perceived error rate may be little bit higher than what we expect.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

Only in a purely spiritual reality differences don't exist. At the physical reality differences exist at all levels not just at the individual level. A family is similar because one is like his father or mother atleast broadly and generally and this can be extended to a group though in a less tighter way. This can be further extended to even larger groups but it gets less and less tight. It goes on such as difference between species, differences between living and non living beings and so on

This is how it is supposed to be. In the case of differences between humans they exist because we should learn higher principles and truths through cooperation. Learning to cooperate and working together is not easy because of prejudices but we will eventually progress towards that and in the process learn precious truths and gain precious
.

So it is necessary to understand the nature and purpose of physical reality to understand and cope up with differences.
 

renuka

Well-known member
Dear Renuka,

Only in a purely spiritual reality differences don't exist. At the physical reality differences exist at all levels not just at the individual level. A family is similar because one is like his father or mother atleast broadly and generally and this can be extended to a group though in a less tighter way. This can be further extended to even larger groups but it gets less and less tight. It goes on such as difference between species, differences between living and non living beings and so on

This is how it is supposed to be. In the case of differences between humans they exist because we should learn higher principles and truths through cooperation. Learning to cooperate and working together is not easy because of prejudices but we will eventually progress towards that and in the process learn precious truths and gain precious
.

So it is necessary to understand the nature and purpose of physical reality to understand and cope up with differences.
Dear Sravna,
I guess the difference here is I just do what I have to do as in job, duty,obligation and focus on myself as in introspect and try to find my flaws and work on them..in this personal space differences in with other individual from my own family or relatives or society doesn't exists.

If all humans work on themselves by looking at the man in the mirror and make the change, the world would cyclically be a better place for you and me and the entire human race, that is how we " heal" the world..by " healing" ourselves.

Perceive not the difference with others,rather perceive the difference your self and Reality.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Yes Renuka introspection is a very important part of the process. The real world interactions will help refine that process and make you a better person. But I think pressure and challenges will be there at all levels. We just have to resolve to take up those challenges and make ourselves better and the society a better place.
 
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