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Why South Indian Brahmins are intelligent?

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Where is the time for introspection? How will one realize - through arguments? through talking to really honest friends? Studying books ? If one has not that before, how will one start there? What will be the catalyst? Just saying without given various methods to go into introspection is just assumptive in nature. Only a very few go though introspection. If we see the discourse here, most have opinionated and with closed mind. Change is fearful and we have not learned to coop with new situations. So, once age, personal experience, intellectual development, travel, meeting people who think intuitively with inductive reasoning and so on. I have had met only about four such people in my life after traveling throughout India. So, the point is, these discussions are just to start a process which without any one realizing make them to move towards rational thinking. Arguments, who is right etc., a just useless. Solutions are extremely difficult because we do not know all the inter-twined circumstances and one method will not help every one. Old age introspection die with the person involved . Sorry this is not to argue with you, but is the result of my own introspection only.
Dear Sir,
Introspection develops through sadhana.
Daily when I am doing my sadhana I write down in a book what I did for the day and go through it and ask myself were my actions conducive or not.

For eg a person related to me always has issues with his computer because he has some memory issues..so I correct the error almost every other day.
2 days ago I thought to myself " oh no..not again"but i did not express it to the person and corrected the error in the computer.

But after my prayers..I wrote that incident down..because I felt it wasnt right to feel " oh no..not again" cos that is resistance to help though help was rendered.

So what was my solution?
I told myself " imagine if I need help repeatedly for the same thing and someone gets a bit annoyed internally..how would i feel?"

So i decided to think that let my actions of correcting the computer error on regular basis be a Karma Yoga of helping with compassion and not looking for any fruit of action.

So this is an example on how I introspect.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
"So my point is..why do you feel intellectual capacity is only the crest jewel of Brahmins as an added advantage?". (1)It is because for the first time, people who vowed poverty, agreed to beg only in five houses (and if they get any thing) to eat, but teach others- real Brahman Dharma is dead. When they begged, they did not say that"we will beg only in 5 Brahman houses". So, due to British and later local goonda rulers, the first step is to find way to survive. Thus, all the intellectual wealth is spent to be financially secure. (2) When our ancestors married their cousins because of their small group in villages (without today's' transport system - I had walked 12 miles once), have now moved away to cities (about 75+%) have to find mates outside the clan. Those who borrowed to make their sons to go to college by borrowing money, had demanded dowry from the girl's parent (to pay of the debts and also money to get their daughters married). I am not suggesting it is right, but my survey of about 200 random Brahman families shared this view. (3) The old generation, clinked to some part of the system – horoscope for marriage but not realized that 'dowry” is not part of our Sastras. A friend of mine's grand mother told me a few years back that “Tattta (her husband) paid Rs 250/- as dowry. So she insisted not to get dowry when she got her 4 sons married. Can we find such people now. Dowry is a social and status history now!. (4). We never had mental medical help for our women. If you read ( I am not sure about the authenticity) Rish's wife were treated nicely excepting Gauthamar badly dealt with Akalya. But, rest treated them as life partner -Arthangini. Do we do it now? Do we get mental counseling to our women? Do we find out why they are stressed out?

(5) When a Brahmin woman becomes widow, now we pounce on her properties but not worry about her or her children ? Historical times, the family took care of them. Due smaller society, they forced widowhood as a GOD given punishment and refused remarriage. Is Sastras says that cruelty be part of Brahmins' life? Anyway, I am just listing all these intricate, slow moving societal changes have entered in typical Brahmins and none of that could be controlled by any one even Shankaracharya, as Hindu religion is not an organized top-down system.

Whether we agree or not, all the complex changes have forced the current generation to gravitate towards materialistic world, since there is no living Brahmin community exits as a typical Brahminical society. True, there are a few families, extremely minority that exists but are not significant to change things. Western studies have shown, to be successful, 3.5% of the total population should participate in meaningful changes. Only three such events in the world had done that and rest have failed.

I am not asking you to agree or disagree, but the answers are complex. This is not an attack on you!
Thank you Sir,
 

sravna

Well-known member
I am more interested learning and not parreting ideas which the writers themselves may not be practicing in their life or only partially. A friend of mine's grand father use to read Sundarakahandam daily, yet he was stealing from his own widowed daughter because he wanted to mentally retire. But he will lecture about the Brahmin ideals. So, I am trying to find a modern Shanakara or Ramanuja and not repeat something they have only heard and not practiced. Anyway, it looks useless to write an inquisitive question here because of the age strata based groups and not a homogenous Brahmin groups. No one said that we should try to remove the subcastes of Brahmin as a first step. It does happen on its own if the boys and girls take the matters on their own hand. No Sankarachariya or any authority can force this, as Hinduism does not have a Brahmin Pope.
You are welcome to ignore them Sir. There are many who are interested.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sir,
Introspection develops through sadhana.
Daily when I am doing my sadhana I write down in a book what I did for the day and go through it and ask myself were my actions conducive or not.

For eg a person related to me always has issues with his computer because he has some memory issues..so I correct the error almost every other day.
2 days ago I thought to myself " oh no..not again"but i did not express it to the person and corrected the error in the computer.

But after my prayers..I wrote that incident down..because I felt it wasnt right to feel " oh no..not again" cos that is resistance to help though help was rendered.

So what was my solution?
I told myself " imagine if I need help repeatedly for the same thing and someone gets a bit annoyed internally..how would i feel?"

So i decided to think that let my actions of correcting the computer error on regular basis be a Karma Yoga of helping with compassion and not looking for any fruit of action.

So this is an example on how I introspect.
Nice reply
 

Nemmara Pattar

New member
Dear Sri Sravna

Thanks for your meaningful response.

You write:-


"It is not only surviving but are you able to sustain your survival? For that coexistence becomes an important requirement. If they (humans) are antagonistic towards coexistence they have the potential to obliterate themselves the fastest."

Why so? Is it possible to coexist with someone who is out to "obliterate" you?

Earlier, I wrote that I would refrain from discussing the "predator-prey relationship".

Much earlier I had even mentioned in passing 'The occupation of India's Aksai Chin by Communist China and its claims to India's Arunachal Pradesh as "southern Tibet".' (That was in the context of the wide and unqualified assertion that "changes will happen with everyone and it will happen for good ultimately." with which I sought to differ.)

The topic under discussion is South Indian Brahmins. So I take it that we are talking not about the undifferentiated human race in general but about the survival and the sustainability in the foreseeable future of South Indian Brahmins, be they Telegus, Kannadans, Thamizhans, or Malayalis, and about perpetuating their distinctive ways of life.

May I now seek your indulgence to point out that we need not look outside our own Indian-Hindu milieu to identify the predator-prey relationship? There are detractors and destroyers aplenty who would like nothing better than our extinction and our disappearance from the face of the Earth.

Much earlier I had queried:-

"Intelligence in humans, on the other hand, might well be something innate and unique, perhaps divinely bestowed and not confined "to the brain and intellect" nor to mere "perception". The flashes of inspiration experienced by our rishis (and sometimes even by ourselves) can perhaps be attributed to a "super-intelligence" resident within, and part of the jeevaathma?"

Let me suggest that anyone or any influence who or which would seek to destroy or result in destroying our South Indian Brahmin way of life encompassing this posited "divinely-bestowed" intelligence and/or this attributed "super-intelligence" residing within us as part of the jeevaathma, is the predator and that we are the prey.

Srimathi Renuka once wrote:-

"I do understand Brahmins are intellectually inclined.
If we make a comparison with Chinese in my country. They are very knowledge oriented. Their Chinese medium schools are known to train students to think at every angle, result based and they are very good at maths. At the same time they learn their own language and culture.

"Those who are Buddhist never fail to practice their daily prayers and they attend Dharma school on Sundays and also learn Vipasana meditation once a little older.
Then they learn musical instruments especially the piano( out here indians and chinese love their kids to play the piano,

"Outwardly all these life style by Chinese is also similar to Brahmins.

Some who are strict Buddhist are vegan, no milk, no yogurt, no onion and garlic."

It is the same with the Chinese in my country. Can we South Indian Brahmins take a leaf out of the Chinese book for our own survival and sustainability?

We know that the Shias, the Bahais, the Ahmadiyyas, the Syrian, the Greek, the Eastern and the Russian Orthodox churches, the Presbyterian, the Anglican, the Baptist, the Methodist, the Lutheran, the Episcopalian, the Pentacostal, the Seventh-Day Adventist churches, the Latter-Day Saints (Mormons), the Salvation Army, the Balinese Hindus in Indonesia -- all survive, and even flourish.

Why can't we? Especially if we "gird up our loins", are prepared to make sacrifices, to learn from history, and to strive as a community?
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Dear Sir,
Introspection develops through sadhana.
Daily when I am doing my sadhana I write down in a book what I did for the day and go through it and ask myself were my actions conducive or not.

For eg a person related to me always has issues with his computer because he has some memory issues..so I correct the error almost every other day.
2 days ago I thought to myself " oh no..not again"but i did not express it to the person and corrected the error in the computer.

But after my prayers..I wrote that incident down..because I felt it wasnt right to feel " oh no..not again" cos that is resistance to help though help was rendered.

So what was my solution?
I told myself " imagine if I need help repeatedly for the same thing and someone gets a bit annoyed internally..how would i feel?"

So i decided to think that let my actions of correcting the computer error on regular basis be a Karma Yoga of helping with compassion and not looking for any fruit of action.

So this is an example on how I introspect.
This is wonderful. But do most people do what you do? That is, you took time and dedication to write down, but most rush through life. That is why, Sadana comes at very late age. Ther question is, how can we educate or prod younger generation. There is no easy way out and there is no easy way to make others follow us. Exception to rule is always there in any thing. God bless you.
 

usaiyer

Active member
Intelligence could be a gift by god or may be in the persons DNA, is a double edged sword and needs to be used with caution. More intelligent people are capable of creating more problems for themselves than the non -intelligent. or less intelligent people ,as generally it is an ego booster.
Creative intelligence can be good, wisdom can take one to greater heights. W e have to read Tenaliraman stories or Vikramaditya tales.
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Intelligence could be a gift by god or may be in the persons DNA, is a double edged sword and needs to be used with caution. More intelligent people are capable of creating more problems for themselves than the non -intelligent. or less intelligent people ,as generally it is an ego booster.
Creative intelligence can be good, wisdom can take one to greater heights. W e have to read Tenaliraman stories or Vikramaditya tales.
Nice thought. It is the environment that sharpens or dulls intelligence even if it is inherited through DNA. Many scientists find that their children, though intelligent born in an intelligent family, do not choose to become scientist and move on to other fields. But in general, doctors and lawyers, a few accounting people have children follow their parent's path and become doctors, lawyers etc. So, creating that environment is the key to make the intelligence creative and useful to society. If you look at a child first its get data - noise, sound and some color, after 6 months it recognize that he or she is called - name recognition, about two years it transforms the "data" into information, next in schooling it transforms the "information" into knowledge and continues this through higher education - learning about the external world and how that affects it - whether be it Physics, Chemistry or Mathematics and so on.

Only after started working, marrying does the same child gets wisdom around about the age of 45 or so. Then, it gets the inner meaning of rituals and recognizes that rituals are the first step of identifying self, it's role . society, it's role etc. When a thread ceremony with 3 stings - one to remember the parents, one to remember the society and one to remembers its own duties become evident if some one explains that. When got married and got 3 more strings, the wife, her family and the extended family and the world to which he is bound is made clear. Do we explain to the child all this? Reading Tenaliramna,, Birbal, Vikramthiya one becomes creative?



To incorporate those key ideas – the inductive logical thinking part – has to be earned or learned from childhood via social service and associating with knowledgeable elders who have traveled far and wide. A very few get that chance, thus there only a few Sankara, Rāmānuja, Tenaliramna or Birbal. School text books and parent in general, are based on deductive reasoning – Karma and Phal – Theory and example. That does not allow full intellectual and mental growth. No text book teaches that. What Tenalirtama, Vikaramathiya teach is “applied logic' only.


Anyway, this is not just to attack you or trying to prove that I am better than you, but it is our ancient method of learning " "kim"(why), athaha (therefore), etc. used as a starting point. But here most reports read as to "what and "how" but not "why" which modern education never tries to answer. "Why" is the root. Part of "aham Brahmasmi" is to continue to learn the various aspects of "Brahman".
Thanks for rekindling the quest.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Sravna,

I have to agree with what you had mentioned about Varna and intellectual differences( not as in superior or inferior but different as in diverse but united as one unit)

You were right all the way.

I was doing some research on this and been listening to videos of Shankaracharya of Puri and he explained the Varna system in a very nice non discriminative way.

One might say that since Shankaracharya is a Brahmin so he might be " biased" but then I came across this by Sathya Sai Baba ...since Sathya Sai Baba's birth body was in a Raju family, Baba has no reason to be biased so I should accept what He says:

"Caste is the Cosmic Person Himself manifesting as Human Society. It is the visible form of the Lord, charming in every limb. It is a great pity that this truth is not widely recognised. It is the good fortune of this land, Bharath, that in this Vision, the Lord, as the physical integration of the “caste limbs” is promoting peace and harmony, prosperity and well-being for all mankind.” and “Judging from mere appearance, one cannot declare that all men are one. We have to distinguish and discriminate and group those with Sathwic, Rajasic, Thamasic or combinations of one or more of those natures, separately. No one can say this is wrong.” (Sathya Sai Vahini, p. 216)
 

Mani_Chennai

Active member
Dear Sravna,

I have to agree with what you had mentioned about Varna and intellectual differences( not as in superior or inferior but different as in diverse but united as one unit)

You were right all the way.

I was doing some research on this and been listening to videos of Shankaracharya of Puri and he explained the Varna system in a very nice non discriminative way.

One might say that since Shankaracharya is a Brahmin so he might be " biased" but then I came across this by Sathya Sai Baba ...since Sathya Sai Baba's birth body was in a Raju family, Baba has no reason to be biased so I should accept what He says:

"Caste is the Cosmic Person Himself manifesting as Human Society. It is the visible form of the Lord, charming in every limb. It is a great pity that this truth is not widely recognised. It is the good fortune of this land, Bharath, that in this Vision, the Lord, as the physical integration of the “caste limbs” is promoting peace and harmony, prosperity and well-being for all mankind.” and “Judging from mere appearance, one cannot declare that all men are one. We have to distinguish and discriminate and group those with Sathwic, Rajasic, Thamasic or combinations of one or more of those natures, separately. No one can say this is wrong.” (Sathya Sai Vahini, p. 216)
You can see this on your own. The head is the controller, the hand is the savior, the stomach is the energy giver and the thighs and legs are the pillars on which this body rests (when you can walk and do work). So, in the olden days the scripts were not developed/ So, they described the body – Aham Brahma asmi has all the necessary tools – Brahma – thinking, Kshatriya to save, Vaisiya to give energy and the Sudhdras (Fulcrums) the pillars to hold the whole where the Brahman has to reside until it moves to a new yoni (after death). This symbolism, later due to writing system without the meaning explained in parenthesis as we do now, wrote Thinkers- saviors- energy providers and the whole mighty carriers were interpreted as Brahman-Kshatirya- Vaisiya and Shudra by Manu. He himself was not a Brahman nor any of the Gods were Brahmins.



But the British used this cleverly to divide and those who could not politically and economically survive under British made it as a caste system. Only Chilappatikaram says “ Maamud Paarpan marai vazhi kaatida – does he says Kovalan tied tali (he was a Vaisya)” etc., is not known why did he do it if he was not a Brahman. Any one can marry any one and due to Patriarchal society, only sons of Brahmins were allowed to higher than others – teachers, ministers etc. Now, women wear Pajama-Kurta instead of Saris and it is convenient to ride motor bikes without the fear of getting the sari got into the wheels. In a few years, there will be two sub-Brahmin castes: sari Brahmins; Pajama Brahmins !. Lord Krishna did Tharpanam so also other Kshatriya. Did Brahman at that time objected to it. No.

Anyway I am not arguing or opposing, but with a “domain general intelligence” one can understand what is going on today. No one can change it as time takes care of it. Nothing to lament and as you had said take care of your own values and life. By the way as a curiosity, at what age(range will be OK) when you did start your introspection?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Dear Sravna,
Just to add...

The system of Varnas is ordained by the Vedas and so there can be no injustice in it; it is not an artifice invented by man.” (Sathya Sai Baba in Geetha Vahini, Ch. IX, p. 46 )



I think all the problems started when the Varna group started disrespecting each other and hell broke loose cos it was not meant to be based on superiority.


The Shankaracharya of Puri however adds that Varna of a Brahmin in Dwapara yuga allowed a child born from a Brahmin father and Kshatriya mother to be classified as a Brahmin.

He added that rules in Kaliyuga differs that is one whose both parents are Brahmins and that too undergone upanayanam between age of 8 to 16 and had to maintain Sandhyavandam without fail only then one is a Brahmin.
He said if a Brahmin man marries a Non Brahmin woman..his Varna follows his wife's Varna.

He did not use words that were discrimnatory..in fact he explained the word Antyja used for Shudras and Dalits does not mean born as last as in low but it means a younger brother..same meaning as Anuja as he is born in varna which came after the other Varnas.

Anyway, its interesting to listen to his videos..it is informative.
 

sravna

Well-known member
Dear Sravna,
Just to add...

The system of Varnas is ordained by the Vedas and so there can be no injustice in it; it is not an artifice invented by man.” (Sathya Sai Baba in Geetha Vahini, Ch. IX, p. 46 )



I think all the problems started when the Varna group started disrespecting each other and hell broke loose cos it was not meant to be based on superiority.


The Shankaracharya of Puri however adds that Varna of a Brahmin in Dwapara yuga allowed a child born from a Brahmin father and Kshatriya mother to be classified as a Brahmin.

He added that rules in Kaliyuga differs that is one whose both parents are Brahmins and that too undergone upanayanam between age of 8 to 16 and had to maintain Sandhyavandam without fail only then one is a Brahmin.
He said if a Brahmin man marries a Non Brahmin woman..his Varna follows his wife's Varna.

He did not use words that were discrimnatory..in fact he explained the word Antyja used for Shudras and Dalits does not mean born as last as in low but it means a younger brother..same meaning as Anuja as he is born in varna which came after the other Varnas.

Anyway, its interesting to listen to his videos..it is informative.
Very informative Renuka
 

vgane

Well-known member
The most intelligent & wealthy community in India are the Banias. They are as religious as the South Indian Brahmins, but more intelligent & wealthy. They too are very disciplined in their work. But they will go to any extent to protect the money. Look at the unicorns which have been created in the last few years. Out of 63 unicorns in India more than 2/3rd are started by unicorns. South Indian Brahmins are a trickle in the list. We have a long way to go to combine intelligence with wealth making abilities.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
You can see this on your own. The head is the controller, the hand is the savior, the stomach is the energy giver and the thighs and legs are the pillars on which this body rests (when you can walk and do work). So, in the olden days the scripts were not developed/ So, they described the body – Aham Brahma asmi has all the necessary tools – Brahma – thinking, Kshatriya to save, Vaisiya to give energy and the Sudhdras (Fulcrums) the pillars to hold the whole where the Brahman has to reside until it moves to a new yoni (after death). This symbolism, later due to writing system without the meaning explained in parenthesis as we do now, wrote Thinkers- saviors- energy providers and the whole mighty carriers were interpreted as Brahman-Kshatirya- Vaisiya and Shudra by Manu. He himself was not a Brahman nor any of the Gods were Brahmins.



But the British used this cleverly to divide and those who could not politically and economically survive under British made it as a caste system. Only Chilappatikaram says “ Maamud Paarpan marai vazhi kaatida – does he says Kovalan tied tali (he was a Vaisya)” etc., is not known why did he do it if he was not a Brahman. Any one can marry any one and due to Patriarchal society, only sons of Brahmins were allowed to higher than others – teachers, ministers etc. Now, women wear Pajama-Kurta instead of Saris and it is convenient to ride motor bikes without the fear of getting the sari got into the wheels. In a few years, there will be two sub-Brahmin castes: sari Brahmins; Pajama Brahmins !. Lord Krishna did Tharpanam so also other Kshatriya. Did Brahman at that time objected to it. No.

Anyway I am not arguing or opposing, but with a “domain general intelligence” one can understand what is going on today. No one can change it as time takes care of it. Nothing to lament and as you had said take care of your own values and life. By the way as a curiosity, at what age(range will be OK) when you did start your introspection?
You asked me this
"By the way as a curiosity, at what age(range will be OK) when you did start your introspection"

My reply is
I always had the tendency to introspect even as a child until at times my mum used tell me to not think too much.
For eg on days which were rainy and cold, i would not use blanket and rather shiver , my mum would ask me why? I would say " some poor child might not have a blanket so i at least can feel the cold the child feels"..i was aged 9 or 10 that time.

So its sort of my nature to put myself in the shoes of others and it was for visible external situations.
As I grew older it took a deeper turn to focus on being able to leave myself out of any scenario and try to just see things as it is without being judgmental...but just to add I am just human and have my negative points too.
 
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renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
The most intelligent & wealthy community in India are the Banias. They are as religious as the South Indian Brahmins, but more intelligent & wealthy. They too are very disciplined in their work. But they will go to any extent to protect the money. Look at the unicorns which have been created in the last few years. Out of 63 unicorns in India more than 2/3rd are started by unicorns. South Indian Brahmins are a trickle in the list. We have a long way to go to combine intelligence with wealth making abilities.
Is wealth making ability the Dharma of a Brahmin?
A lot of people who are religious are into it for Goddess Lakshmi!

I know some from a community that are succesful bussiness men and take Navaratri seriously..they only donate to the poor on Navaratri because they believe if they donate during this time they will get back nine folds of wealth from Lakshmi.

Honestly is that actually being religious?
 
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sravna

Well-known member
The most intelligent & wealthy community in India are the Banias. They are as religious as the South Indian Brahmins, but more intelligent & wealthy. They too are very disciplined in their work. But they will go to any extent to protect the money. Look at the unicorns which have been created in the last few years. Out of 63 unicorns in India more than 2/3rd are started by unicorns. South Indian Brahmins are a trickle in the list. We have a long way to go to combine intelligence with wealth making abilities.
There are groups who want to push their ideologies and interests and people mostly have to yield to them as these are powerful and systematic efforts. Today only power and money speak. Others are just meek followers uttering just what the vested interests make them utter. Sad
 

sravna

Well-known member
Is wealth making ability the Dharma of a Brahmin?
A lot of people who are religious are into it for Goddess Lakshmi!

I know some from a community that are succesful bussiness men and take Navaratri seriously..they only donate to the poor on Navaratri because they believe if they donate during this time they will get back nine folds of wealth from Lakshmi.

Honestly is that actually being religious?
No it is not being religious. Everything boils down to making money and acquiring power. People know the game and almost everybody plays it. Just that only a few are very adept at it and these are the ones who want the game to continue at any cost
 
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