Why I Am Not A Hindu ?- Book Review

[KRS]

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sapr333,

I really do not understand your stance. Please educate me if you see this posting.

You entered this Forum with a posting on Kancha's book. Then you posted other information which supposedly purport to show the 'Hinduism's slow march to death' as you put it and again affirmed in your farewell posting. You posted some scurrilous doctored postings from some Buddhist sites about Sri Adi Shankara. All this while you said you were looking to find 'God'.

Your whole pov seems to be able to find a God that is the owner of 'Absolute Justice' and 'Righteousness'. Yet when we explained on the intellectual level about the relative natures of these concepts, you could only dismiss them outright without any 'intellectual' backing. You did not understand the concept of 'Dharma' either.

Is the thesis of Kancha that the Dalits in India got the short end of the historical stick in India? Yes, they did(But today they live in an India where Caste discrimination is illegal). Same way the blacks in the 'Christian' world of the USA where I live (perhaps got it worse) and the way the indegenous folks were and (are) treated by almost all the religions in the world. We know how the Indian Americans are treated by the Christians in both Americas. We know how the Protestants are treating the Catholics in Ireland. We know how the Christians in Serbia had a 'progrom' going against the Muslims there. We know how the present day massacre in Darfore is happening because of religion. We know about the unmarked white vans coming and taking away Tamil children in Sri Lanka just because they are Tamil. And the majority who were taught the ahimsa by Buddha himself don't bat an eye not to give any dignity to a minority and discriminate openly against them. We know how the muslims treat the fellow muslims when they are from South Asia versus when they are from the Arabian lands. We know how the Sunnis treated and decimated the Shites of the Southern Marshes in Iraq, just because they were Shiites. We know how the jews in Israel treat the Palestinians. Ans vice versa. We know how the Kashmiri Pandits were hounded out of the valley by the Muslims. We know how in Bangladesh, Pakistan and Malaysia the minorities are treated and hounded. We know how the Christians in Australia and New Zealand treat the local coloured people.

I can go on and on. I am not even touching the atrocities committed by people in the past in the name of religion or ideology. Do I need to say what China has done to Tibet and what they are trying to do in Nepal? As well as what they did to their 'intellectuals'? Do you want me tell you what the Russians have done to their minority populations in the name of their ideology?

Yet, this Kancha's book where he accuses a whole religion as violent and 'hegemonic' without any citations and without any backing up of any other scholorly citations to base his fantastic assertions about 'Brahminism' and the 'Brahmin culture' somehow is accepted by you as some sort of an intellectual paradigm.

Please tell me why?

Regards,
KRS

 

[happyhindu]

Dear Sapr,

Dear HH, post # 724...


Thanks for your detailed response, which ,cummulated all the thoughts, which I've been seeking so far, in a crispy way. You've indeed expressed it,meticulously..

Let me stress here, the point/vocab "WORLDVIEW"...

You've put a sudden-brake to my pursuit of 'Truth' here in this forum,with this post ...Though I dont believe in one person's individual opinion to judge a group,your opinion towards 'Value of human life and dignity' seems to be fairlywell equally expressed with majoirity of the participants here,and for sure, they were not falling in line with the worldview.(Pls do some reading on 'worldview"

Glad that you will pursue your path. Individual opinions or judgements of any kind never mattered to anyone....all of us will anyways follow our heart.

I did some reading on worldview, and also read up on worldview from the marxist point of view. To put it very simply, all these come across more as frameworks of the same questions asked from various ontological perspectives...man searches, explains or attempts to explain what he finds, bonds or attempts to bond within or as an ally of a given framework..

But whether individual or group view, at the base level to each one of us nothing really matters..but this is just a personal perspective. Not sure you want people to toe the line of any one particular perspective...that wud be boring.

In this light, I'm pondering to exit this thread,while safely concluding, that, Hinduism is definitely on the decline and soon we would find them in archives in line with Apollo/Romans/Inkas/Sumerian/Greeks/Babylonians etc etc,with some great artifacts in Louvre.Dont worry... Off course,you and I may not live to see it... (No hard feelings and nothing sentimental about it)...

The eternal existentiality of sanatan beleives that all religions will cease to exist someday and the anthropological basis to the formation of religious thot also says the same.

I have been reading that hindusim in the current time is stable as it has been since the longest time at around 13% or 1.8 billion adherents worldwide (from religion data archives, religioustolerance.org, adherents.com and so on).

Each time a fragment soul attempted / attempts / will attempt to connect to its creator, whether by pursuing the spirit or pursuing science, they were / are / will be literally following the sanatana really, irrespective of which part of the world...not sure anyone wants to tag an eternal faith with any word called 'religion'..

btw,If no one responds back intellectually,I think, I should exit, this place. Kancha may be right in saying that, ''We are not listeners!!"..... Thanks for all the wonderful times and good share of thoughts and your times.. God bless you guys..

Not sure why one wud want to consider the other participants as 'not responding back intellectually' when all of us seem to have patiently answered stuff from each of our own individual perspectives...And i have no idea what has Kancha's crazy liner of 'we are not listeners' got to do with the responding of participants here. Perhaps that exactly is the point, if one is not willing to listen to answers from various angles, then it can come across more as pushing one's own agenda with predefined ideas...

But anyways, that apart, am glad for our discussions here. Thankyou for the interaction.

Best wishes and God Bless.

PS: Having said that, my great regards/gratitude/wishes for TB's remains high for ever,until I die!! Adieu

Au reviour, my friend.

 

[happyhindu]

Sapr,

Just in case interested:

Please listen to the people in this video: http://www.survival-international.org/tribes/dongria

This is how the early pre-vedic tribes or those that developed into vedic tribes wud most likely have been...Cultivators, worshipping nature for its sustenance, doing animal sacrifices, drinking palm but not addicted to it (and treating it as a medicinal drink), they have their own rhyming chants to appease the spirits of water, air, elements of nature..(even the language they speak - bhaloaachi, makoraachi is so close to bhaluka asti, makaraasti..)...

Really do they need to have their intimate objects of worship defiled by so-called development (vedanta resources is supposedly trying to mine their mountain)..do they need to be removed from their habitat and cloned into following wahtever is called this 'civilization'?

White men supposedly called us savage when they first encountered our village type tribal life....whatever is this 'savage' with us, we are best left alone...

 

[sapr333]

Just sneaked in to my old favourite thread.. at the moment, let me shun this thread for a while...This one seems to be pretty sensitive.. I need to tread a fine line here.

 

[kvatpkayarss]

Whether to be a Hindu or not, is entirely Kancha Ilaiah's business. He, like late E V Ramasami Naicker is ardent critic of anything connected with Hinduism. It is possible that some missionaries are behind him, financing him in his anti-Hindu crusade. But, one need not worry too much of it. Hinduism is eternal and even one million Kancha's can't shake it. But as a true Brahmin, one should always do introspection and analyse as to what went wrong with us. We worship Paramacharya, but do we follow his emphatic advices on simple living? Haven't we gone wayward? Materialism has overtaken us. If we truly live like a Brahmin, whole society, barring few Kancha's, EVRN's and some handful of their followers, would love us, respect us. But again, gaining love or respect should not be our aim. We must do our duty and leave the rest to GOD! Live a simple life, Be devoted to your duty, Be Honest, Serve the Almighty, View everyone as a form of GOD (Including Kancha's) and continue to live in search of Truth and leave the rest to GOD!

 

[pannvalan]

If one speaks Truth, transparency, simplicity, humility and honesty will follow automatically.

 

[kunjuppu]

kvat,

good post.

what would this mean to be a brahmin on your terms?

it is easy to say, 'shun materialism, lead a simple life, continue to search Truth'. but what does it mean in practical terms?

let us say that my child is on the verge of passing +2. i wish to bring up my child hence forth as the true brahmin per your terminology. please clarify what should be my child's career path? life path?

more after your reply. i thank you in advance, and look forward to dialog-ing with you.

Whether to be a Hindu or not, is entirely Kancha Ilaiah's business. He, like late E V Ramasami Naicker is ardent critic of anything connected with Hinduism. It is possible that some missionaries are behind him, financing him in his anti-Hindu crusade. But, one need not worry too much of it. Hinduism is eternal and even one million Kancha's can't shake it. But as a true Brahmin, one should always do introspection and analyse as to what went wrong with us. We worship Paramacharya, but do we follow his emphatic advices on simple living? Haven't we gone wayward? Materialism has overtaken us. If we truly live like a Brahmin, whole society, barring few Kancha's, EVRN's and some handful of their followers, would love us, respect us. But again, gaining love or respect should not be our aim. We must do our duty and leave the rest to GOD! Live a simple life, Be devoted to your duty, Be Honest, Serve the Almighty, View everyone as a form of GOD (Including Kancha's) and continue to live in search of Truth and leave the rest to GOD!

 

[Nara]

.... continue to search Truth'. but what does it mean in practical terms?

Dear K, I remember reading an interview of Kancha sometime ago. A Google search yielded the following. It is really good. Take a look. Even if one diagrees, at least one would get to know what he/she disagrees with.

Kancha Ilaiah

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

I think the post by Shri kvatpkayarss is pure rhetoric. This is very often heard in the last one or two decades and has become an integral part of each and every person giving kathaakaalakshepams, gurus and acharyas as well, though from all available indications these people who so exhort people, try to get as much comforts as possible, for themselves.

If one goes through the history of India also, brahmins in flesh and blood did not actively subscribe to this philosophy, (only puranic characters, and more especially the heros of Sri maha bhakta vijayam text) except those who were, by fate or their injudicious ways of life, compelled into penury. Such people were not real examples of humility or simplicity either.

I therefore feel the query posed by Kunjuppu is not very relevant because I may also as well advise him now to send his son to study vedas and make him live as a simple vaideekan who will not take any fees more than what is minimum requirement for two times meals ( and two coffes perhaps) plus two sets of veshti-angavastram of the ordinary kind as a year's change of clothes! And if it is a girl, do not educate her further and find out a vaideekan of the above type and give her in marriage as soon as possible!

It will be more relevant to know how Shri kvatpkayarss himself has applied his theory in his life and the lives of his dependent family members.

 

[RVR]

Hindu religion has faced so many assaults over the past thousands of years. No body knows who established Hindu religion.

Internally both Buddha and Mahavir Jain tried and failed in disturbing Hindu religion.

Externally Mughals and Missionaries tried and failed miserably.

Only Hindu religion is the `eternal' religion without origin and end.

Even if thousands of Kancha Ilaiah comes, they cannot eliminate Hindu religion from earth.

Why bother about such guys?

Best way of insulting them is just ignoring them.

All the best

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RVR said:-

Even if thousands of Kancha Ilaiah comes, they cannot eliminate Hindu religion from earth

Sri.RVR Sir,

Sri.Kancha did not write to eliminate Hinduism. it was his way of appealing against discriminations and injustices. Many such voices appealed for justice in India. Matter of fact, you are responding to his appeal without your knowledge by the way of your social services to the fishermen community; recently announced a project for assissting to build a school to uplift lower caste and poor and down-trodden persons.

Cheers!

 

[RVR]

Sri.RVR said:-



Sri.RVR Sir,

Sri.Kancha did not write to eliminate Hinduism. it was his way of appealing against discriminations and injustices. Many such voices appealed for justice in India. Matter of fact, you are responding to his appeal without your knowledge by the way of your social services to the fishermen community; recently announced a project for assissting to build a school to uplift lower caste and poor and down-trodden persons.

Cheers!

Sri Raghy,

To the best of my knowledge no body asks you and I to be a Hindu. The same is applicable to all.

Thousands of people are adopting Hinduism without our asking and at the same time people are migrating to other religions or turning atheists. No body is stopping the process both ways.

We are not asking for any justification - why a particular person converted to Hinduism or why a particular person left Hinduism.

We are not here to convert any body to Hinduism or retain anybody in Hinduism.

Kancha Ilaiha is one such person and let us all ignore him. Let us discuss some thing productive for the society as a whole.

All the best

 

[RKB]

Honestly I have not gone through this entire thread. But when I wanted to vote, I found my option missing. Hinduism is not declining. All those who have converted themselves to Christians will also come back to Hinduism. Hinduism will definitely accommodate them as a separate sect within itself. We will have Converted category, Protestant category etc and everything will be accommodated. That is the secret behind the survival of Hinduism.

 

[Raghy]

Sri.RKB said -

All those who have converted themselves to Christians will also come back to Hinduism. Hinduism will definitely accommodate them as a separate sect within itself.

Greetings Sir! Don't we have enough sects in Hinduism already? Well, if you think, a few more won't hurt, then who knows. we may have that too in Hinduism! But seriously, we should strive to reduce and eradicate the differences between our different sects in Hinduism.

Cheers!

 

[Ganamukundhapriya]

Know thyself as different

The beauty of Hinduism is its secular diversity. That is what is sustaining it for ages. Your problem is that you see a difference as problem. Learn to see it as beauty. So many colours .. So many Raagams... So many itmes to eat... wow what a beautiful world. People are just different. That doesn't mean they are bad. Make an effort to know them to understand them. Make an effort to know thyself to present yourself properly to others. This means you have to tell how you are different!

Don't we have enough sects in Hinduism already? Well, if you think, a few more won't hurt, then who knows. we may have that too in Hinduism! But seriously, we should strive to reduce and eradicate the differences between our different sects in Hinduism.

 

[Raghy]

The beauty of Hinduism is its secular diversity. That is what is sustaining it for ages. Your problem is that you see a difference as problem. Learn to see it as beauty. So many colours .. So many Raagams... So many itmes to eat... wow what a beautiful world. People are just different. That doesn't mean they are bad. Make an effort to know them to understand them. Make an effort to know thyself to present yourself properly to others. This means you have to tell how you are different!

Sri.Gopalakrishnan,

Greetings. I value your observation.

Make an effort to know thyself to present yourself properly to others. This means you have to tell how you are different!

Sir, I always make an effort to present myself properly to others. My rate of success depends upon the subject I was discussing when I presented myself. I agree, often times, I fail to present myself properly; when I discuss very sensitive subjects I notice my inadequacy. Analysing ourselves is a sensitive subject. I can not reply to your question to answer 'how I am different'; that is the whole problem. I don't consider myself different to others; I don't consider others to be any different to me. (There we go! Like I said, often times, I feel I am inadequate in presenting myself).

The beauty of Hinduism is its secular diversity. That is what is sustaining it for ages. Your problem is that you see a difference as problem. Learn to see it as beauty. So many colours .. So many Raagams... So many itmes to eat... wow what a beautiful world. People are just different. That doesn't mean they are bad. Make an effort to know them to understand them.

Madam, I high-lighted the word 'Hinduism' to say that I will not be talking about Hinduism. There is no such thing as 'Hinduism' way of life; we do what we like as a society and hang our actions on that poor thing's neck and call it the 'charecteristics of Hinduism'. I humbly request, I do not like to do it. I wish to let 'Hinduism' go on its own way. Honestly, Hinduism is the least interested in our society practices. I mean, let us leave the name of the religion 'Hinduism' aside from our discussions on our society. Sure, most of us follow 'Hinduism' (personally I don't; but that is beside the point to this discussion) as our religion; but let us talk about our society.

Just like any other society, our society also has differences amoung her people by the way of sex (not in the amount; I mean male or female!), age groups, literacy acheivements, employability, standard of living, family practices etc. Also we have one more difference by the name 'caste'. I am not too concerned about the differences common to all societies. Let us talk about caste!

So many colours....a spectrum of colours....if one spin the spectrum fast enough, they will all blend in to one single colour as 'white'!...how romantic! Such nice expressions! Same way about Raagas....food (I really wished you chose some other example other than food. It is an effort to cook one item, here you are reminding about many items I really miss! I think you are really mean!).

Romantic thoughts stop here, please.

When one colour is considered superior to an other colour, I have a problem.
When one colour is considered the most inferior to all the other colours, I have a problem.
When I am asked to arrange the colours only in a particular hierarchy everytime, I have a problem.
When I am told that pigments forming one colour can never be used to form any other colour, I have a problem.
When I am told that the pigments from one colour can never transmigrate to any other colour, I have a problem.

I followed my instructions. I painted a wall as pre the age old practices. I am left with splothes of colours not connected to one another. I really have a problem with that.

I like to see blending colours; I like to see this

Cheers!

 

[senthil]

He says (preface)"My request to brahmin, baniya and neo-kshatiya intellectuals is this:For about three thousand years you people learnt only how to teach and what to teach others– the Dalitbahujans.Now in your own interest and in the interest of this great country you must learn to listen and to read what we have to say.People who refuse to listen to new questions and learn new answers will perish and not prosper".

Let me convert the above in to plain words.. "Brahmins, kshatriyas and baniyas (ie, vaishyas).. henceforth, you have to listen to us.. otherwise you will perish.. (meaning made to perish).."..

Its typically a mirror statement of Bible, which says, that those who believe in jesus are believers and those who do not are infidels.. I need not say, what infidels are to be done..

 

[senthil]

Btw, i have my own reason, why I am NOt a hindu..

1. The word Hindu is NOT used by us. Its for the foreigners to refer us.

2. Hinduism is NOT an identity for us. Hinduism is NOT a religion, does not have holy book, nor have any customs on its own.

3. The real religions of india are "Shaivism, Vaishnavism, jainism, budhism, sikhism, skandam, sooktham etc".. there are around 76 different religious sects when sankara integrated in to 6 religions called sanmathams.. So, which of the 6 religions i belong to?

4. When i say "I am a shaivite, i have agamas to follow, and the primary god Shiva to worship. When i say I am a vaishnavite, i have vishnu to worship and Bhagawat Gita to follow. When i am budhist, i have budha to follow. When i am jaina, i have mahavir to follow.
If i am a smartha, i have my own customs to follow..

But if i say, I am a hindu, what should i follow? Hinduism is a vague identity, which we are clinging on to without any reason.. Its a blanket identity to attack all indic religions at one go.. like a blanket attack that used to happen in college hostels..

It may be difficult to accept my above points.. but please have a look in to my views..

 

[RKB]

Life is like that

What Senthil tell as vagueness exist in all religion. The Davinci Code exposed vagueness of Christianity. Isn't it? Who is a Sikh is again a big question mark. Every religion has its point of origin that will be the point of convergence of other set of divergent thinkings. Vaishnavism of Saint Ramanuja is from Smartha thinking is the reality in our own Brahmin tradition.

Similarly every family has its custom and at the same time every marriage in the family brings in an amount of alien custom and tradition in to that family. Politics also is like that and so is any association. Life is like that.

A Hindu today should also should accept its vaguenesses.

 

[kunjuppu]

A Hindu today should also should accept its vaguenesses.

.. ofcourse very true. i prefer to call it the mysteries of the faith. every faith has mysteries.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

its very interesting poll. pls keep it open.
1. democracy, secularism.
2. Grass is always greener on the other side.
3. our national language is English which is not any Hindu's language.
4. Lack of attention towards Sanskrit.
5. Aggressive work of Christian Missionaries.
6. Our complete(TB) lack of interest towards underprivileged. Resultingly they change loyalties and then regard us as enemy.
7. Lack of Vedic Studies in Schools.
8. Our dependence on Missionery run school. no choice they have network all over India.
9. Increasing instances of violence's on minorities resultingly majority portrayed in poor light.
10. caste system not only lower caste convert upper also.
11. Idol worshipping coz if u don't know about hinduism esp in cities and u go to temple and pray to god u will feel nothing.
12. Biased Media campaign
13. Rigid rituals. young generation believe that no need to practice ritual in order to be hindu.
14. Mother tongue dying/becoming unpopular or ppl r ashamed to talk in it.
16. Only religion which has so many mythologies. And ppl use it to propogate against it to say Some People regard hinduism equal to superstition.
17. Globalization.
18. Everything in english from computers to higher education. Even in chennai now english is replacing tamil slow and steady.
19. growing urbanisation. machine life. no time for kids by parents.
30. majority of world non veg and some hindu eat non veg so they are isolated by rest.
21. this is imp we are told to do certain things for which our parents say its just like that. its tradition our ancestors have been doing. but we are not told the benefit that we get by doing it. young generation ask lots of uncomfortable questions esp with propoganda.
22. lack of unity among hindus. and others play divide and increase population,
23. influence of western culture.
24. radical hindu parties like shiv sena, bajrang dal, bring disrepute to religion with violence.
25. some hindus don't treat women as equal and its resented by them. so they prefer non hindus even more.

There r many. I will think about others. Its certainly not coz of one or two factors its many factors acting together.

 

[R. Ramanujan]

to senthil sir,

The river Indus was called ‘Sindhu’ river. The people living in the land of Sindhu river were called ‘Sindhus’ and their civilization was called Sindhu civilization or Indus civilization. Foreigners like Persians who could not pronounce the sound “S” pronounced the word ‘Sindhu’ as ‘Hindu’. That is how the ‘Sindhu’ people became ‘Hindus’. The term Hindu has everything to do only with geography and has nothing to do with any religion. The terms ‘Hindu’ and Hinduism used for any religion is only an aberration and a misnomer. The land of the Sindhu river is only Sindhusthan and not Hindustan.
nandrigal.

 

[srikrish85]

Ramanuj ji,
Yes indeed. The persians even called the Saptha Sindhu regions as Haptha Hindu.

Now who is a Hindu?

Hindus are Indian pagans, those who do not belong to Abrahamic Religions are pagans. THe muhemmudans called parsees as Fire Pagans. So Hindus are those pagans living beyond the river Indus(Shidhu or Hindhu).

 

[R. Ramanujan]

@ srikrish85 boss i have only limited knowledge in these matters and i admit my ignorance openly without any blink.
i thought i give senthil sir some web links regarding this.

 

[srikrish85]

Well HHji means Happy Hinduji. I used to refer her (I'm still use to) as such.