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What is the deep significance of Kasi Yatra in TB weddings

From my limited understanding (as bachelor), I tend to agree with the writeups of both zebra ji and TBT ji. Both Pravrutti and Nivrutti dharmas are considered equally important in our culture. So as Zebraji said, a choice is given to the boy to pursue Nivrutti dharma if he so desires, before taking this critical step of entering Grhasthasrama. And if you remember the story of the father of saint Jnaneswar, Kasi yatra does seem to indicate the taking up of Nivrutti dharma, from which one is not supposed to recede.

As regards the idea expressed by Sri TBT, Kashi is of course very well known as a place of learning. But a groom who simply states his desire to undertake a Kasi yatra need not be considered a scholar already. Nevertheless there's something in the aspiration, and the tradition or sishtachara might have wanted to encourage this. The father of the girl might want his daughter to share in the learning process, whenever that happens. Reading Sri TBT's post, I was reminded of a story from the Chandogya upanishad wherein a king approaches a Rishi, seeking knowledge. Initially the Rishi refuses. However later when the king approaches him with his daughter along with some wealth, the Rishi accepts the request, saying 'I will share the knowledge with you, through her face" which I understand to mean, "your daughter, after learning this Vidya from me, will teach you".
 
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Ok.....i have a question.
Kasi is a Shaiva location...so what about Iyengars?
Which yatra do they go to in their marriage ritual?

Kasi is a sacred place to Vaishnavas, Buddhists and Jains too. The scriptures of all these sects speak reverently of Kashi.
 
Somehow the explanation by ZebraJi makes more sense and does not reduce a Bride to a mere object to be gifted away to a potential Kasi University drop out.

The explanation given by Zebraji explains the Kasi Yatra significance in a logical manner as reminding the Groom that preferably he goes tru each stage of the Ashrama system and from Brahmacharin to Grhasta to Vanaprastha then finally to Sanyas instead of by passing all stages and provide no lineage to his family.

About Kasi being your IIT equivalent..I guess there should be a Feline IIT too cos even Cats go to Kasi after eating 900 mice!LOL

It is not necessary for one to go through the 3 Ashramas, before taking up Sannyasa. The rule is, "yadahareva virajet tadahareva pravrajet". Also the upanishads state that if one is a knower of certain Vidyas, it doesn't harm his departed parents even if he doesn't do Shraddha karma for them. I am writing this from memory, don't remember the exact location where I read this, but it must be in Brihadaranyaka Up.
 
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In the modern context, the function gives a tip to any groom subjected to ill treatment or threatened by his in-laws with false court cases and the like....:)
 
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Well 'Brahmadeya' is the marriage practiced by brahmins. Brahma-deya means gift to brahman. This is the tradition, whether you wish or not. I said in those days kAsi is the place of learning for all and there was no IIT for women, unfortunately.

Why it may not be saMnyAsa is, the boy dresses up well with slippers, umbrella, book etc and walks out. A person going for saMnyAsA dresses up differently and gives up everything.

-TBT

Sannyasa can be given only by a Guru. So while on the search of a Guru who would initiate him, the seeker can avail of some basic materials for protection like umbrella etc.
 
From my limited understanding (as bachelor), I tend to agree with the writeups of both zebra ji and TBT ji. Both Pravrutti and Nivrutti dharmas are considered equally important in our culture. So as Zebraji said, a choice is given to the boy to pursue Nivrutti dharma if he so desires, before taking this critical step of entering Grhasthasrama. And if you remember the story of the father of saint Jnaneswar, Kasi yatra does seem to indicate the taking up of Nivrutti dharma, from which one is not supposed to recede.

As regards the idea expressed by Sri TBT, Kashi is of course very well known as a place of learning. But a groom who simply states his desire to undertake a Kasi yatra need not be considered a scholar already. Nevertheless there's something in the aspiration, and the tradition or sishtachara might have wanted to encourage this. The father of the girl might want his daughter to share in the learning process, whenever that happens. Reading Sri TBT's post, I was reminded of a story from the Chandogya upanishad wherein a king approaches a Rishi, seeking knowledge. Initially the Rishi refuses. However later when the king approaches him with his daughter along with some wealth, the Rishi accepts the request, saying 'I will share the knowledge with you, through her face" which I understand to mean, "your daughter, after learning this Vidya from me, will teach you".

A boy has to be eligible, aspirational and also have the learning prowess (pass basic learning) to go to kAsi for learning. Going to kAsi signifies all these. A daughter herself is Sarasvati, who like knowledge moves from one place to another. In fact, in pAni grhAnam, the grooms family says "We adore you in the presence of this assembly as Sarasvati'. So a boy ready for higher learning gets is the gift of 'Sarasvati'.

King Janasruti is himself a greatly learned King. Once he hears two swans talking who claim that none can have the knowledge of Sakatvan Raikva. King Janasruti wants to learn that knowledge from Raikva. Raikva turns out as a person sitting under shade of cart in a village, with dusty feet and ragged clothes.

King Janasruti entices Raikva by offering a dakSina (a fees) in terms of material wealth (cattle, horses, gold). He does so, because he thinks that poor Raikva will get easily enticed with such huge wealth.

Raikva rejects the king and calls the King a zudra.

Zudra is one who is not a 'dvija', twice-born or one who is not learnt. A Zudra does not understand the importance and value of learning. Jana-sruti acted like the zudra, without understanding the value of learning he wanted to achieve and tried to buy that learning with material wealth.

Then Janasruti ponders about not just why Raikva rejected him to teach brahma vidya, but why Raikva called the King a zudra. This time King goes back to Raikva, offers his daughter himself to Raikva and requests him to teach the King.

This time Raikva accepts it. Raikva accepts it because he gets Sarasvati, the goddess of knowledge, in return. So Raikva accepts it now as he understood that King Janasruti valued the learning as his life. After all daughters are our life.

The best of gift a brahman could get for learning and wisdom is a life-partner who could add knowledge to life journey, by being the Sarasvati. Janasruti is a learned king. His daughter would be the apt person for Raikva in his life journey.

A daughter is not a property who is traded for wealth or material comforts. Daughters are Sarasvati, the goddess of knowledge. They move from one place to another like knowledge that moves from one to another. Yet like knowledge they remain in both places. They are valued highly in both places.

saMnyAsa is not prescribed for brahmacharin. None of the rishis became samnyAsi from brahmachaya stage. Asrama is a dharma. It cannot be violated. Sankara ofcourse violated the dharma. But he himself was force to undergo the grhasta experience, atleast in stories where he enters a king's body and lives that life for sometime.

-TBT
 
King Janasruti entices Raikva by offering a dakSina (a fees) in terms of material wealth (cattle, horses, gold). He does so, because he thinks that poor Raikva will get easily enticed with such huge wealth.

Raikva rejects the king and calls the King a zudra.

Zudra is one who is not a 'dvija', twice-born or one who is not learnt. A Zudra does not understand the importance and value of learning. Jana-sruti acted like the zudra, without understanding the value of learning he wanted to achieve and tried to buy that learning with material wealth.

Then Janasruti ponders about not just why Raikva rejected him to teach brahma vidya, but why Raikva called the King a zudra. This time King goes back to Raikva, offers his daughter himself to Raikva and requests him to teach the King.

This time Raikva accepts it. Raikva accepts it because he gets Sarasvati, the goddess of knowledge, in return. So Raikva accepts it now as he understood that King Janasruti valued the learning as his life. After all daughters are our life.

The original topic of this discussion is not about the word zudra used by the Rishi. However I will respond to the above point, as it has been variously interpreted by scholars. Even while Janasruti offers his daughter to Rishi Raikva, the Rishi continues to call him a zudra. This shows that the Rishi still considered Janasruti as ineligible ie, in your words "some one who did not value learning for what it is". Hence the above interpretation (in bold) does not appear correct to me.

Moreover, there are other instances in the Sruti wherein material wealth was offered as an enticement for acquiring learning and the same is accepted without issue. Like with King Janaka in his interaction with Rishi Yajnavalkya and with the other Brahma jnanis in his Sadas.

saMnyAsa is not prescribed for brahmacharin. None of the rishis became samnyAsi from brahmachaya stage. Asrama is a dharma. It cannot be violated. Sankara ofcourse violated the dharma. But he himself was force to undergo the grhasta experience, atleast in stories where he enters a king's body and lives that life for sometime.
-TBT

The story of Sankaracharya undergoing sensual experiences as king Amaruka is rejected by scholars on various counts. Like many other exaggerated and fanciful stories in the Sankara Digvijayams, which post date Sankaracharya by several centuries, it doesn't prove anything. Whereas in his Bhashyam to the Brahma sutram and the upanishads, Sankaracharya has expounded his position on this matter through reasoned out arguments. His position is clear that the Sannyasa is Atyasrama, a Sannyasi is beyond the Varnasramadharma. Rishis, like Suka for example, have become Sannyasi without going through the Asrama sequence.

A boy has to be eligible, aspirational and also have the learning prowess (pass basic learning) to go to kAsi for learning. Going to kAsi signifies all these. A daughter herself is Sarasvati, who like knowledge moves from one place to another. In fact, in pAni grhAnam, the grooms family says "We adore you in the presence of this assembly as Sarasvati'. So a boy ready for higher learning gets is the gift of 'Sarasvati'.

Kashi was not the only place of learning. The aspects you mentioned apply to Kanchi and to other centers of learning as well. In practice, given the arduous nature of the journey to and from Kashi, if someone expresses his resolve of going to that place for learning, wouldn't a person think twice before offering him the hand of his daughter? Unless of course, he succeeds in weaning away the boy from his resolve.
 
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The original topic of this discussion is not about the word zudra used by the Rishi. However I will respond to the above point, as it has been variously interpreted by scholars. Even while Janasruti offers his daughter to Rishi Raikva, the Rishi continues to call him a zudra. This shows that the Rishi still considered Janasruti as ineligible ie, in your words, some one who did not value learning for what it is. Hence the above interpretation does not appear correct to me.

Moreover, there are other instances in the Sruti wherein material wealth was offered as an enticement for acquiring learning and the same is accepted without issue. Like with King Janaka in his interaction with Rishi Yajnavalkya and with the other Brahma jnanis in his Sadas.



The story of Sankaracharya undergoing sensual experiences as king Amaruka is rejected by all scholars on various counts. Like the many other exaggerated and fanciful stories in the Sankara Digvijayams, it doesn't prove anything. Whereas in his Bhashyam to the Brahma sutram and the upanishads, Sankaracharya has expounded his position on this matter through reasoned out arguments. His position is clear - that Sannyasa is Atyasrama, a Sannyasi is beyond the 4 Asramas. Anyone, in any stage of life can become a Sannyasi. Many rishis, like Suka for example, have become Sannyasi without going through all the four asramas.

1. The topic of discussion was kAsi yAtrA which I said is to symbolize the pursuit of learning and not saMnyAsa.

2. I am not sure what you mean by Rishi continues to call him zudra..? Raikva accepts the daughter of janasruti and teaches janasruti the saMvarga/prAna vidhya, how everything in this Universe goes back to vAyu. One who learns no longer is a zudra. If you give specific reference of verses, it will help me to have a better understanding.

3. You are right that sage Yajnavalkya says in Janaka's court that he bows to the best scholar in the court but wish to have the thousand cows from Janaka. But that's a debate between scholars of Janaka's court, where Yajnavalkya answers questions of Janaka and Asvala.

In Raikva's case, Jansruti wants to be a disciple of Raikva and asked him to teach the knowledge that Raikva acquired. In Yajnavalkya's case, Yajnvalkya answers specific questions asked by Asvala and Janaka.

Raikva - Janasruti is teacher teaching student. Yajnavalkya-Asvala-Janaka and his courtiers is PhD viva.

4. Sukha in some puranas, follows Asrama dharma with four sons and a daughter.

5. I am not saying the story on Sankara happened or not. But going from brahmacharya to samnyAsa asrama is influence of buddha (in my view). It's a later day addition.

6. kAsi has been the place of learning for thousands of years. It's the ultimate destination of learning. We have IIT's but still people prefer to do masters in MIT, Princeton etc.. right..?

-TBT
 
It is not necessary for one to go through the 3 Ashramas, before taking up Sannyasa. The rule is, "yadahareva virajet tadahareva pravrajet". Also the upanishads state that if one is a knower of certain Vidyas, it doesn't harm his departed parents even if he doesn't do Shraddha karma for them. I am writing this from memory, don't remember the exact location where I read this, but it must be in Brihadaranyaka Up.

1. What is the translation of the quoted rule?

2. Also where is it stated (or which Upanishad and where) that if Shraddha karma is not done regardless of reasons it harms the departed parents.

Seems like some kind of superstitious belief to me. I cannot imagine our scriptures provide such statements. Now, one may still want to do Shraddha karma for their own betterment and peace of mind. That does not mean there is harm if it is not done. World has 7 billion people, how many are doing Shraddha Karma, Many do not even know such an idea.
 
1. What is the translation of the quoted rule?

2. Also where is it stated (or which Upanishad and where) that if Shraddha karma is not done regardless of reasons it harms the departed parents.

Seems like some kind of superstitious belief to me. I cannot imagine our scriptures provide such statements. Now, one may still want to do Shraddha karma for their own betterment and peace of mind. That does not mean there is harm if it is not done. World has 7 billion people, how many are doing Shraddha Karma, Many do not even know such an idea.

I too wonder if Karma theory is operating is Shraddha needed?
BTW funeral rites and rites for shraddha can be found in the Dharmashastras.

Baudhayana Chapter of Dharmashastras covers..marriage..oblation for deceased ancestors..ways of living..dharma for hermits and ascetics..may be you can look it up.


https://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/dharma_index.asp
 
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1. What is the translation of the quoted rule?

yadahareva virajet tadahareva pravrajet

My translation : Whenever Vairagyam sets in the mind, right away one should go on Sannyasam

i.e the Asrama in which one lived at that point of time, be it Brahmacharya or Garhasthyam, does not matter at all.

We see this happening in the story of sage Shuka. At the time of his Upanayanam ceremony, he gets Vairagyam and immediately sets off for pArivrAjyam. Hence the below celebrated sloka in praise of Suka

yam pravrajantam anupetam apeta-krityam
dvaipāyano viraha-kātara ājuhāva
putreti tan-mayatayā taravo 'bhinedus
tam sarva-bhūta-hridayam munim ānato 'smi

2. Also where is it stated (or which Upanishad and where) that if Shraddha karma is not done regardless of reasons it harms the departed parents.

If a person knows that particular Vidya under discussion in the Upanishad, then even if he does not do pitru karma, the paraloka-gati of his parents is not harmed. So it can be taken as an artha Vada in praise of that Vidya. By implication however, an Ajnaani who has not learnt and practised the Vidya, will still need to perform Sraaddha.

While interpreting this passage in the Upanishads, Sankaracharya states that if the son does not perform Sraadha karmam, some obstruction will be created in the way of the pithrus, from enjoying the results of the karma that they did in this world. I don't remember whether Sankaracharya refers to any Sruti texts in support of his statement.

By the way, some of the quotations that Sankaracharya has given, as from the 'Sruti's, couldn't be traced to any extant Vedas or Upanishads. Scholars consider the texts from which these quotes were given, as those that might have been "lost in the course of time".

3. Seems like some kind of superstitious belief to me. I cannot imagine our scriptures provide such statements. Now, one may still want to do Shraddha karma for their own betterment and peace of mind. That does not mean there is harm if it is not done. World has 7 billion people, how many are doing Shraddha Karma, Many do not even know such an idea.

Sraddha karma is an integral part of Hindu religious beliefs. Like any other 'belief', it might be considered superstitious by non-believers. To each his way :)
 
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2. I am not sure what you mean by Rishi continues to call him zudra..? Raikva accepts the daughter of janasruti and teaches janasruti the saMvarga/prAna vidhya, how everything in this Universe goes back to vAyu. One who learns no longer is a zudra. If you give specific reference of verses, it will help me to have a better understanding.

Reply: In verse 4.2.5 Raikva continues to call Janasruti a sudra. According to your interpretation, since Janasruti has now offered his daughter to Raikva, “Raikva accepts it now as he understood that King Janasruti valued the learning as his life”. From that perspective, since as you said “A Zudra does not understand the importance and value of learning. Jana-sruti acted like the zudra, without understanding the value of learning he wanted to achieve and tried to buy that learning with material wealth”, with the gift of his daughter, Janasruti’s sudra-hood would no more be there, so it would have been superfluous for the Rishi to call him so repeatedly.

Moreover, at the conclusion the Sruti emphasises the villages given by Janasruti to raikva (and no more mention of his wife) which again indicates the significance of the material wealth in the 'transaction'.

3. You are right that sage Yajnavalkya says in Janaka's court that he bows to the best scholar in the court but wish to have the thousand cows from Janaka. But that's a debate between scholars of Janaka's court, where Yajnavalkya answers questions of Janaka and Asvala.

In Raikva's case, Jansruti wants to be a disciple of Raikva and asked him to teach the knowledge that Raikva acquired. In Yajnavalkya's case, Yajnvalkya answers specific questions asked by Asvala and Janaka.

Raikva - Janasruti is teacher teaching student. Yajnavalkya-Asvala-Janaka and his courtiers is PhD viva.

Reply: I gave two instances. There is an instance where Yajnavalkya visits Janaka (and it is mentioned that Yajnavalkya has given Janaka a boon that he may ask him any number of questions, and Yajnavalkya does give him Brahma jnanam, so the relationship of Janaka with Yajnavalkya is tantamount to disciplehood) and Janaka asks him “have you come for cows or for asking questions” and Yajnavalkya replies, he wants both, without waiting to call Janaka a sudra :)

Even in the instance you mentioned, king Janaka expressly states that the material wealth (in the form of cows), is for anyone who reveals his Brahmishtatvam. The cows are an enticement or reward, and Yajnavalkya proactively takes them away and later in the course of the debate, shares his learning on Brahman, essentially the same knowledge that the Sruti repeats later on, with everyone present at the sadas, including king Janaka. The point is clear – Brahma jnanam can be traded off with material wealth, and the fact doesn’t seem to degrade king Janaka into a Sudra.

4. Sukha in some puranas, follows Asrama dharma with four sons and a daughter.

Reply: Yes, there is a differing version in the Devi Bhagavatam. But while the Devi Bhagavatam is a much edited text (it contains much recent material like Tantric rites and Radha worship), there is a lot of disconnect between the stories of Suka in the Mahabharata (the oldest and most popular of them all) and the Devi Bhagavatam version. Devi Bhagavatam is considered a Shakta sectarian purana, while the Mahabharata is an ithihasa revered by all sects.

Even his father Rishi Vyasa became a Sannyasi without going through the chaturtha asramas. Though later, under the insistence of his mother, he entered into a relationship with the wives of Vichitravirya, that was more for the sake of continuing the Kaurava lineage, than due to any desire for Garhasthyam or for continuing his own line.

5. I am not saying the story on Sankara happened or not. But going from brahmacharya to samnyAsa asrama is influence of buddha (in my view). It's a later day addition.

Reply: In my view, both Pravritti and Nivrutti dharmas held power in society since the upanishadic times. You would find echoes of their mutual conflict in the Mahabharata Santhi and Anusasana parvas and in the Ramayana, parts of which are much older than Buddha.

I am not reproducing here the arguments of Sankaracharya and others on why Sannyasa is actually Athyasrama. But IIRC they trace it to certain passages from the older Upanishads like Brih Up 4.4.22 which strongly advocate a mendicant life. There are other Sannyasa Upanishads like Jabala Up which are considered quite old.

Jainism is a religion much older than the Buddha, and they too had a big role in spreading through their stories this idea of Sannyasa as something that transcends Varnasrama.

On the other hand, many examples can also be quoted from the upanishads for supporting your view, that the Rishis lived in Garhasthyam. So I think, it is a choice ultimately left to the individual. I think the Brahma Sutras advance some views on this topic but am not able to recall much from memory.
 
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yadahareva virajet tadahareva pravrajet

My translation : Whenever Vairagyam sets in the mind, right away one should go on Sannyasam
:)

I translate it this way

" sa ha uvāca yājñavalkyo brahmacaryaṃ
isamāpya gṛhī bhavet gṛhī bhūtvā vanī bhavet vanī bhutvā pravrajet.
yadi iva itarathā brahmacaryād eva pravrajed gṛhādvā vanādvā.
atha punara vratī vā vrat vā snātako vā snātakovā utsannāgnir anagnikovā
yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet"

After brahmacarya, become grhasta; after being a grhasta become vani (enter vana) after being vani, move away/roam/wander (pra- vrajet).

If otherwise from bramhacarya wander/roam away or from being grhi or vani, then again one following the vrata or vrata-snAtaka, or snAtaka who abandoned his agni (daily rituals/nitya karmas) (utsann agnir), who never did his rituals/karmas (anagni), that day (yad ahar) loses rajas/lack of rajas (vi- rajet), that day goes away/wanders (pra-vrajet).

Sattva, Rajas, Tamas are the three gunas. Sattva generally is considered mode of goodness. I consider it as mode of knowledge/information. Rajas is considered anger, passion. I consider it as mode of energy. In fact Yajnavalkya specifically calls rajas as energy here. Tamas is mode of darkness/ignorance etc.

The point here is when one becomes lack of rajas, or lack of energy, that day that person can wander/roam into saMnyAsa. That person can be brahmacharin, grhastA, a vrata snAtaka (who did not learn, but completed his school), a snAtaka who did not continue his karma anushtana, a snAtaka who never performed them or just about anyone.

There is a rule. The rule is go from brahmacharin to grhasta to vanaprastha to samnyasa.

There is exception. If you are vi-rajet, do not have energy at any stage of life, give up and adopt samnyasa.

This is how I see it.

-TBT
 
That's a very interesting interpretation.

I see you have taken viraj (Vai-raj-yam) - as lack of energy.

But I would like to humbly disagree. I think, in the older upanishads like Brihadaranyaka Up, pArivrAjyam is dealt with differently.

It is connected with Vai-rag-yam ie absence of 'raga' ie Tyagam or Vyuththanam of eshanAs ie Tyagam of Desires. Even a person who is fully capable (endowed with energy) of living in this world, might not feel the desires or eshanAs.

So, in (4.4.22) of the Brih Up the Sruti says, 'to US who enjoy the bliss of the Atman, of what use is children, money or any of these other paltry worldly pleasures? Saying this, those Brahmanas of yore gave up their homes and lived a mendicant life'

It doesn't suggest to me a lack of energy.

It suggests that, from an higher level of self-sufficiency with the Atman, the Brahmanas of yore gave up this lower world for Sannyasa.

In the Gita too, Krishna mentions this idea in the sloka 'Yastvaatmaratireva syaad....'

यस्त्वात्मरतिरेव स्यादात्मतृप्तश्च मानवः . आत्मन्येव च सन्तुष्टस्तस्य कार्यं न विद्यते .. ३.१७..

yastvAtmaratireva syAdAtmatRRiptashca mAnavaH .

Atmanyeva ca santuShTastasya kAryaM na vidyate .. 3.17..

But for that person who rejoices in the Self; is satisfied with the Self and is contented in the Self, no duty exists for him.

Of course, even a person who feels Vairagyam due to other reasons than eshana-tyagam, like the death of a beloved wife for example, might take up Sannyasam, as is seen in real life. However such Sannyasam, while not prohibited, is considered a lower form of the ideal, since the eshanas are still likely nascent in the individual. And he might, at a later stage even give up Sannyasam. This was the case with the father of saint Jnaneswar, who went on Kashi yatra pursuing Sannyasam, however soon returned to take up Garhasthyam once again.
 
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yadi iva itarathā brahmacaryād eva pravrajed gṛhādvā vanādvā.
atha punara vratī vā vrat vā snātako vā snātakovā utsannāgnir anagnikovā
yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet

The word Anagnika I would not interpret as one who 'lacks the energy' to do agnikaryam. It means, one who (though having the adhikara and ability) has given up Agnikaryam.

So it states (in my view)
pravrajed brahmacaryād gṛhād vanād ... yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet

ie, one who has developed vairagyam, can take up pArivrAjyam from any ashrama, be it Brahmacharyam, Garhasthyam etc.
 
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1. IN 'yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet', the word is 'Vi rajate'. I am not sure how Vai-ragyam comes here.

Almost all translations I have read, translates them as 'lack of rajas'. I see Rajas as energy. In fact many translations also call Rajas as energy in this case. Some others translate rajas as atomic, minute, dust and hence vi-rajas as lack of dust and hence pure, clean etc. and then say one who is pure can start wandering. But that's not what I see.

We have to read it fully. There is a rule that Yajnavalkya mentions. There is an exception. The exception is for the Virajas, who lost energy.

If can you give me the verse by which it connect to vairagya, it would help. Thanks for it.

2. I translate 'utsann agnir' as one who has abandoned the agni rituals and 'anagni' as one who never followed those rituals. I did not translate them as lack of energy. I translated it exactly like you.

3. Yajnavalklya simply says not just brahmacharya, but grhasta, vani, vrata snAtaka (who completed school, but not earned his degree), vrati (who follows all the vows and rituals, but probably never went to school/gurukul), utsann agni (who abandoned his rituals), anAgni (who never did it), if that person is Virajas /lacks energy (vi-rajate) can start saMnyAsa.

That is the exception part.

-TBT
 
1. IN 'yad ahar eva virajet tad ahar eva pravrajet', the word is 'Vi rajate'. I am not sure how Vai-ragyam comes here.

What I stated is, the word 'pravrajya', for Sannyasam, is connected to Vyuththanam or Tyagam of Eshanas in the Upanishads like Brih Upanishad 4.4.22. And as I explained, this Vyuththanam is a giving up, due to an absence of interest or desire for children, wordly pleasures. The person is self content in Atman. Lack of energy does not come in the picture at all, as you can refer from the above passage (4.4.22).

Now, Vairagyam is a commonly used word for 'lack of desire/interest'' or detachment.

Due to the above upanishadic connection, I correlated Virajet to Vairagyam.

Almost all translations I have read, translates them as 'lack of rajas'. I see Rajas as energy. In fact many translations also call Rajas as energy in this case. Some others translate rajas as atomic, minute, dust and hence vi-rajas as lack of dust and hence pure, clean etc. and then say one who is pure can start wandering. But that's not what I see.

OK I will give an independent translation. Since I don't have Sankaracharya's Bhashyam with me right now, for a change I will give a translation provided by indological scholar Patrick Olivielle to the above passage. (Refer the book "Collected Essays 2") available online.

https://books.google.co.in/books?id...EwAXoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=yad ahar eva&f=false

Translation:

Having completed the studentship, one should become a householder. Having become a householder, one should become a forest-hermit. Having become a forest-hermit(Vani), one should go forth (and become a Sannyasi).

Or else, one may go forth (into Sannyasa) directly from Brahmacharya, or from Garhasthya or from the Vana.

Otherwise, whether one is under a vow or not, whether one is a snataka or not, whether one has ceased to keep the sacred fires, or has always been without a sacred fire - on whatever day one becomes detached, that very day one should go forth.

Note that the last two lines are all-encompassing. They are all without exceptions, part of the same rule.
 
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In the word vi-raj-et, the 'rajas' can be interpreted as a rajasic desire or motivation of a person to perform nitya/naimittika karma to acquire/maintain worldly things like children, pleasures etc. Performing such karma is an essential part of Ashrama system. Whereas once a person has attained to viraj or detachment to these matters, no more does he desire these things, and instead he seeks after the Atman that is beyond all these, and consequently gets into Sannyasam, eventhough he has all the adhikaram and ability/(physical and mental) to perform the karmas associated with the Ashrama system. Hence this detachment can be seen to directly follow from the word virajet.
 
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Even if we accept your translation of virajet as lack of rajas, the rajas can be interpreted as a rajasic energy, which arises out of a desire or motivation of a person to perform nitya/naimittika karma to acquire/maintain worldly things like children, pleasures etc. Performing such karma is an essential part of Ashrama system. Whereas once a person has attained to viraj or detachment to these matters, no more does he desire these things, and instead he seeks after the Atman that is beyond all these, and consequently gets into Sannyasam, eventhough he has all the adhikaram and ability/(physical and mental) to perform the karmas associated with the Ashrama system. Hence this detachment can be seen to directly follow from the word virajet.

Yes, they are equivalent for sure. But they are not same.

I wrote it as " The day (yad ahar) one is devoid of energy/incapable (vi-rajet) (in any asrama), that day (tad ahar) can adopt saMnyAsa (pravrajet). This is a fair exception to the asrama dharma which otherwise proceeds sequentially.

It can also be written as " The day (yad ahar) one is devoid of rajo guna (vi-rajet) (in any asrama), that day (tad ahar) can adopt saMnyAsa (pravrajet)

I chose the first option. The reason is saMnyAsa is not giving up rajas alone. It is also giving up tamas. So the day one become vi-rajet (if it is about guna) that day person can't adopt saMnyAsa.

But yes, this kind of interpretation has been used to justify people getting to saMnyAsa directly from other asramas in later days.

-TBT
 
Yes, they are equivalent for sure. But they are not same.

I wrote it as " The day (yad ahar) one is devoid of energy/incapable (vi-rajet) (in any asrama), that day (tad ahar) can adopt saMnyAsa (pravrajet). This is a fair exception to the asrama dharma which otherwise proceeds sequentially.

No, please refer Patrick's translation to the passage, which I quoted earlier.

The asrama sequence is optional, just one among three options ("Or else" in translation) thrown open to the person. Patrick has highlighted this fact in the footer (19) in page 214 of that book Ascetics and Brahmins: Studies in Ideologies and Institutions. All three courses are optional, without preference attached to any of them.

Here's a link to another translation

https://shaivam.org/scripture/English-Translation/1305/jabala-upanishat-sastri

that interprets the word viraja as "disgusted with the world"

When a word can have multiple meanings, it is best to adopt that meaning which is in sync with the idea indicated by other Upanishads. Here we have a passage where a word virajet is used in connection with parivrajyam. Brih Up 4.4.22 deals exclusively with Parivrajyam. The same passage is repeated verbatim elsewhere in Brih Up too, hence it has added significance. There are no other significant passages from the older Upanishads dealing with parivrajyam. So that's why I chose a meaning (detachment and giving up) for the word Virajet, that is in sync with the idea expressed in 4.4.22.

Hence my point that right from early Upanishadic period, the injunction to Sannyasa was applicable to people endowed with worldly detachment, belonging to all Asramas, and hence Sannyasa is rightly called Athyasrama, a stage beyond Varnasrama dharma.

It can also be written as " The day (yad ahar) one is devoid of rajo guna (vi-rajet) (in any asrama), that day (tad ahar) can adopt saMnyAsa (pravrajet)

I chose the first option. The reason is saMnyAsa is not giving up rajas alone. It is also giving up tamas. So the day one become vi-rajet (if it is about guna) that day person can't adopt saMnyAsa.

There is something called a viraja homa (for getting rid of rajas and Tamas gunas) that is part of Sannyasa initiatory rites. Anyway, in my message I didn't mean the giving up of rajo-guna, but the giving up of desire for the worldly things like children, wealth etc. Even in Sattva and Tamas guna, one can have certain desires, which however binds a person to this world (thus going against eshana-Tyagam which is the primary requirement of parivrajyam).

If we choose the meaning here that since rajas equals energy, so viraja means lack of energy, then a person must take up Sannyasa only when he becomes devoid of all energy to pursue worldly life and becomes practically a weakling, old and decrepit. That goes into conflict with many of the difficult rules given in the Sannyasa upanishads, and goes against the upanishadic statement "nAyamAtmaa Balaheenena labhyah".

The same jabala upanishad under consideration, deals separately with those who are suffering whether due to being devoid of energy or some other reason.

yadyaturah syaad manasaa vaachaa samnyaset

Which again confirms that the word viraja needs to be interpreted in a different way, as detached/disgusted with the world.

Sannyasa is Sad nyasa, a quest for moksha through the realization of the Atman, hence the goal of life for every human being, as the upanishads state. It is possible only to one who must be strong and confident and fully capable of pursuing it's difficult journey.
 
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I too wonder if Karma theory is operating is Shraddha needed?
BTW funeral rites and rites for shraddha can be found in the Dharmashastras.

Baudhayana Chapter of Dharmashastras covers..marriage..oblation for deceased ancestors..ways of living..dharma for hermits and ascetics..may be you can look it up.


https://www.hinduwebsite.com/sacredscripts/hinduism/dharma/dharma_index.asp

Thank you Renuka Madam for sharing an interesting website with lots of information. So Dharma shastras stipulate rules. But I was looking for underlying logic and rationale for the rules.
 
yadahareva virajet tadahareva pravrajet

My translation : Whenever Vairagyam sets in the mind, right away one should go on Sannyasam

i.e the Asrama in which one lived at that point of time, be it Brahmacharya or Garhasthyam, does not matter at all.

We see this happening in the story of sage Shuka. At the time of his Upanayanam ceremony, he gets Vairagyam and immediately sets off for pArivrAjyam. Hence the below celebrated sloka in praise of Suka

yam pravrajantam anupetam apeta-krityam
dvaipāyano viraha-kātara ājuhāva
putreti tan-mayatayā taravo 'bhinedus
tam sarva-bhūta-hridayam munim ānato 'smi



If a person knows that particular Vidya under discussion in the Upanishad, then even if he does not do pitru karma, the paraloka-gati of his parents is not harmed. So it can be taken as an artha Vada in praise of that Vidya. By implication however, an Ajnaani who has not learnt and practised the Vidya, will still need to perform Sraaddha.

While interpreting this passage in the Upanishads, Sankaracharya states that if the son does not perform Sraadha karmam, some obstruction will be created in the way of the pithrus, from enjoying the results of the karma that they did in this world. I don't remember whether Sankaracharya refers to any Sruti texts in support of his statement.

By the way, some of the quotations that Sankaracharya has given, as from the 'Sruti's, couldn't be traced to any extant Vedas or Upanishads. Scholars consider the texts from which these quotes were given, as those that might have been "lost in the course of time".



Sraddha karma is an integral part of Hindu religious beliefs. Like any other 'belief', it might be considered superstitious by non-believers. To each his way :)

Dear Mr KRN :

Thank you once again for taking time to provide a detailed reply.

Somethings do not make sense to me.

1. If Vairagyam sets in one should go on Sannyasam? What does go on Sannyasam mean? I cant imagine someone overcoming desires is told to immediately wear orange robe and roam around the world. For what purpose? If Sannyasam is a state of mind they dont need to do anything.

2. If dharma shatras (per reference provided by Renuka Madam) or upanishads say as a rule one must do Sharaddham that does not lead to any clarity as to why one should do them. I have a hard time accepting Sankaracharya actually talked about son doing Shraddha karmam to prevent Pithrus from obstruction. These are all beliefs as you said and I have a hard time accepting Sankaracharya writing Bhashya on beliefs. Is there a reference where the Acharya wrote the way you have described?

3. There are harmful beliefs and harmless beliefs. If someone believe there is a heaven or hell that is a harmless belief. But if they believe that someone not believing their God is an infedel and can be killed that is a harmful belief. Believing that there is curse of Pitrus is a harmful beliefs. So I am against it.

I did find a thread in the Philosophy section as to why one must do Shraddham. Though I did not understand everything in that thread the presentation is logical.
 
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