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What is the deep significance of Kasi Yatra in TB weddings

a-TB

Well-known member
In TB weddings the groom tries to walk off to Kasi.
Bride's father tells him to come back and marry his daughter.

After some photos the boy readily agrees and then the groom and bride exchange garlands.

Is there a deep significance to this function?

Does it have a basis in Vedas?
 

zebra16

Well-known member
In TB weddings the groom tries to walk off to Kasi.
Bride's father tells him to come back and marry his daughter.

After some photos the boy readily agrees and then the groom and bride exchange garlands.

Is there a deep significance to this function?

Does it have a basis in Vedas?

Yes it does have some significance -- whether the significance is deep or shallow depends on how we view it.

The snAtakA (the student who returns from Gurukulam after the ceremonial bath) returns to his parents after studies. He is still impressed by the vairAgyam (renunciation) spirit that has been drummed into his head by the study of upaniSads etc. and wants to retire to the forest to pursue his "Atma vidyA". Initially the parents of the boy are impressed with his determination and give him walking stick, umbrella etc. for his proposed sojourn to the deep woods.

But then it dawns on them that mOksha may not be possible unless he passes through the four Ashramas and he has to pass through the grhastAshram before his mind mellows and attains the maturity to have the requisite vairAgyam and the parents of the boy themselves may never escape the cycle of birth and death, unless their son performs antyeshti (last rites) for the parents and performs at least the first SrAddham (when the parted soul is supposed to join other souls of the same lineage or sayyujyam with their Lord (or stay in heaven/hell etc.)

So he is called back and persuaded to be a gruhastA and raise a family to ensure "vamsha vruddhi" and they also say that they have identified/selected a good "kanyA" as his bride. The boy (or groom) relents and agrees to be a gruhastA and he would pursue his life journey of vAnasprasthAshrama later. The vAnasprasthAshrama will ideally commence after he has had a look at his grandson and he will lead his further life in forests subsisting on leaves and roots and water from the streams etc. making him superfluous on this earth and focus on AtmavidyA.

As you can see from the above, the arranged marriage, staying with the parents till they depart to the other world or take to vAnaprasthA are rather deeply ingrained in a Hindu psyche and thats why you will find resistence from conservatives or oldies to the changes which "liberals" try to thrust upon them with the idea of love marriage etc. through forum such as ours.

Initially the exchange of garlands in itself signified marriage and there was a sumptuous meal to solemnise the event. But thereafter many other rites have also been added (which also have quite a significance).

About photos, well I am sure you know the modern saying "marriage is temporary, but photos are permanent".

The reply would be incomplete without making a mention of modern day spin that the groom is tempted wih the offer of a beautiful bride, temptation is hard to resist (and examples of vishwAmitra, mAneka etc. are thrown in).

About whether it has a basis in vedAs, I think yes. I remember reading or hearing someone say it is there in Araynaka, most probably in taittiriya AraNyakam. But I would like you to take this as just my "opinion". If you really need it, I will have to make a lot of searching.

The knowledge about Dharma is scattered in the four vedAs and in the four components of vedA viz. samhita, brAhmaNam, Aranyakam and upaniSad and it would be like searching for a needle in haystack. To cut short this lengthy search, our forefathers had made a compilation called "Dharmasindhu" which distills the dos and donts for a conservative Hindu. I think dharmasindhu in various languages is freely available in the net and the book form is not too costly either.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
The way I understand this is very different.

We practise 'Brahmadeya' marriage. Brahma-deya means gift to a Brahman or gift to a learned/knowledgeable one.

For eg., in those days Kings settled Brahmans in new villages and gave them Brahma-deya lands, which means taxes from these lands go the Brahmans and these lands are considered to be owned by Brahmans. This was done so that Brahmans can concentrate on their work, the work of Knowledge (Seeking, giving, developing). The gifts were in recognition of the knowledge of the Brahmans.

In a Brahma-deya marriage, the girl is given as a 'gift' to a Brahman boy, for his knowledge. For Knowledge that he has, that he seeks and that he is capable of developing.

Brahmans who excel in knowledge in their local pAtasAla, in those days go to kAsi for developing their knowledge further. So going to kAsi is an esteemed act for brAhmans. Going to kAsi was much like going to an US University in those days.

As there is a rush and scrawl amongst parents of brides to catch hold of a US going groom these days, those days, brides parents were going after grooms who go to kAsi for further knowledge. So every brahman boy 'acted' as if he is going to 'kAsi', thus displaying his worth in terms of knowledge.

Every bride's father got a satisfaction spotting a kAsi going boy and offering him his daughter. This is how the custom evolved in my view.

Such knowledgeable, knowledge seeking brahmans are equivalent to mahAvishnu (jnAnavan mAm prapadyate). Hence the bride's father offer their lakshmi's to such mahAvishnus.

-TBT
 

zebra16

Well-known member
The way I understand this is very different.

We practise 'Brahmadeya' marriage. Brahma-deya means gift to a Brahman or gift to a learned/knowledgeable one.

For eg., in those days Kings settled Brahmans in new villages and gave them Brahma-deya lands, which means taxes from these lands go the Brahmans and these lands are considered to be owned by Brahmans. This was done so that Brahmans can concentrate on their work, the work of Knowledge (Seeking, giving, developing). The gifts were in recognition of the knowledge of the Brahmans.

In a Brahma-deya marriage, the girl is given as a 'gift' to a Brahman boy, for his knowledge. For Knowledge that he has, that he seeks and that he is capable of developing.

Brahmans who excel in knowledge in their local pAtasAla, in those days go to kAsi for developing their knowledge further. So going to kAsi is an esteemed act for brAhmans. Going to kAsi was much like going to an US University in those days.

As there is a rush and scrawl amongst parents of brides to catch hold of a US going groom these days, those days, brides parents were going after grooms who go to kAsi for further knowledge. So every brahman boy 'acted' as if he is going to 'kAsi', thus displaying his worth in terms of knowledge.

Every bride's father got a satisfaction spotting a kAsi going boy and offering him his daughter. This is how the custom evolved in my view.

Such knowledgeable, knowledge seeking brahmans are equivalent to mahAvishnu (jnAnavan mAm prapadyate). Hence the bride's father offer their lakshmi's to such mahAvishnus.

-TBT

You are partially correct. I forgot to mention why "kAshi yAtrA" specifically and why not yAtra to other places.

It is because kAshi was then famous for assembly of Hindu Rishis and seekers of Atma-jNanam. It was THE PLACE for scriptural debates and discourses. But the other points I mentioned hold out.

Your contention that the brides' fathers were fawning like the present US green card holding bridgegrooms does not appear to be fully sync because seldom the groom on his marriage left for KAshi till his vAnaprasthAnam.

Also those that went to kAshi seldom returned (in those days) and ended their life there is my understanding because of the understanding prevailing then that death in kAshi ensures mOksham. All those elders who visit kAshi these days and perform shrAddham etc. these days symbolically represent that they and their ancestors have no more root in the world.

You might also have come across instances where people give up for ever one or a few of their pet habits, fancy dish etc. on return from kAshi which also symbolises that they have developed vairAgyam towards earthly comforts and they are prepared for life without body after this world.
 
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thebigthinkg

Active member
You are partially correct. I forgot to mention why "kAshi yAtrA" specifically and why not yAtra to other places.

It is because kAshi was then famous for assembly of Hindu Rishis and seekers of Atma-jNanam. It was THE PLACE for scriptural debates and discourses. But the other points I mentioned hold out.

Your contention that the brides' fathers were fawning like the present US green card holding bridgegrooms does not appear to be fully sync because seldom the groom on his marriage left for KAshi till his vAnaprasthAnam.

Also those that went to kAshi seldom returned (in those days) and ended their life there is my understanding because of the understanding prevailing then that death in kAshi ensures mOksham. All those elders who visit kAshi these days and perform shrAddham etc. these days symbolically represent that they and their ancestors have no more root in the world.

You might also have come across instances where people give up for ever one or a few of their pet habits, fancy dish etc. on return from kAshi which also symbolises that they have developed vairAgyam towards earthly comforts and they are prepared for life without body after this world.

I explained the logic how kAsi yAtra came into brahma-deya marriage as the starting point of marriage. That became a custom in the later days without understanding of why it started (probably). My stress was on what a brahmadeya marriage is supposed to be.

First and foremost, kAsi is the place of learning. People of all ages went to kAsi for learning, from north, east and west.

Since for Brahmans in South of Vindhyas, kAsi was a long distance and involved arduous travel and many times a travel of no return, they did the travel post the grhastasrama, in particular when they did not have their parents to take care.

Once in kAsi, thus, they also did the rites of their parents, as that's the area of triveni sangam and they probably never returned.

But this probably transformed again into a custom of people traveling to kAsi post their duties just for performing rites of parents, visit to temples etc.

The sAstra of leaving something in kAsi is primarily in people of South India. Somehow I think it is more to showoff to other people that they went to kAsi and came back, rather than any specific vairagyam. But yes we can construe it that way too..

-TBT
 
OP
A

a-TB

Well-known member
Yes it does have some significance -- whether the significance is deep or shallow depends on how we view it.

The snAtakA (the student who returns from Gurukulam after the ceremonial bath) returns to his parents after studies. He is still impressed by the vairAgyam (renunciation) spirit that has been drummed into his head by the study of upaniSads etc. and wants to retire to the forest to pursue his "Atma vidyA". Initially the parents of the boy are impressed with his determination and give him walking stick, umbrella etc. for his proposed sojourn to the deep woods.

But then it dawns on them that mOksha may not be possible unless he passes through the four Ashramas and he has to pass through the grhastAshram before his mind mellows and attains the maturity to have the requisite vairAgyam and the parents of the boy themselves may never escape the cycle of birth and death, unless their son performs antyeshti (last rites) for the parents and performs at least the first SrAddham (when the parted soul is supposed to join other souls of the same lineage or sayyujyam with their Lord (or stay in heaven/hell etc.)

So he is called back and persuaded to be a gruhastA and raise a family to ensure "vamsha vruddhi" and they also say that they have identified/selected a good "kanyA" as his bride. The boy (or groom) relents and agrees to be a gruhastA and he would pursue his life journey of vAnasprasthAshrama later. The vAnasprasthAshrama will ideally commence after he has had a look at his grandson and he will lead his further life in forests subsisting on leaves and roots and water from the streams etc. making him superfluous on this earth and focus on AtmavidyA.

As you can see from the above, the arranged marriage, staying with the parents till they depart to the other world or take to vAnaprasthA are rather deeply ingrained in a Hindu psyche and thats why you will find resistence from conservatives or oldies to the changes which "liberals" try to thrust upon them with the idea of love marriage etc. through forum such as ours.

Initially the exchange of garlands in itself signified marriage and there was a sumptuous meal to solemnise the event. But thereafter many other rites have also been added (which also have quite a significance).

About photos, well I am sure you know the modern saying "marriage is temporary, but photos are permanent".

The reply would be incomplete without making a mention of modern day spin that the groom is tempted wih the offer of a beautiful bride, temptation is hard to resist (and examples of vishwAmitra, mAneka etc. are thrown in).

About whether it has a basis in vedAs, I think yes. I remember reading or hearing someone say it is there in Araynaka, most probably in taittiriya AraNyakam. But I would like you to take this as just my "opinion". If you really need it, I will have to make a lot of searching.

The knowledge about Dharma is scattered in the four vedAs and in the four components of vedA viz. samhita, brAhmaNam, Aranyakam and upaniSad and it would be like searching for a needle in haystack. To cut short this lengthy search, our forefathers had made a compilation called "Dharmasindhu" which distills the dos and donts for a conservative Hindu. I think dharmasindhu in various languages is freely available in the net and the book form is not too costly either.

Dear Mr Zebra16 :

Thanks so much for offering a lucid explanation with scholarly content.

Thank also to TBT, the level of discussion is elevated compared to the norms here these days.

I do have one (logical) question. This part has to do with the parent's desire for someone to do Shradda etc.

But the boy will only do this for his parents when they leave this world. He is not expected to do this for his father in law.
Yet it is the father in law who calls the boy from his trip to Kasi to marry his daughter knowing that benefit goes only to the boy's father and mother and their lineage.

I can see the father calling the boy but in our tradition it is the father in law who calls the boy back from trip to Kasi

Not sure why it is so.
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
It might be too deep for me, but if it is Vedic practice, why is it only included in the southern weddings?

I have attending a number of North Indian Brahmin wedding, and nothing of this nature is performed.


You can explain any thing, and authenticate it by throwing Sanskrit words to bolster it.
 
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tbs

Well-known member
hi

kasi yatra used be community oriented..not in vedic practice....many ceremonies are NOT VEDIC oriented...a vadu after

studied basic veda and he further goes to KASI for higher studies..in olden days....KASHI IS MAIN EDUCATIONAL CENTRE IN

ANCIENT INDIA...so its a formal symbol of going and gal's father provide him for grihasthasrma.....its like...GAL SIT

IN FATHER'S LAP FOR KANYA DHANAM ..THIS IS NOT VEDIC PRACTICE TOO...
 
OP
A

a-TB

Well-known member
hi

kasi yatra used be community oriented..not in vedic practice....many ceremonies are NOT VEDIC oriented...a vadu after

studied basic veda and he further goes to KASI for higher studies..in olden days....KASHI IS MAIN EDUCATIONAL CENTRE IN

ANCIENT INDIA...so its a formal symbol of going and gal's father provide him for grihasthasrma.....its like...GAL SIT

IN FATHER'S LAP FOR KANYA DHANAM ..THIS IS NOT VEDIC PRACTICE TOO...

OK, so what part of a TB wedding is based on Vedas?
 

tbs

Well-known member
OK, so what part of a TB wedding is based on Vedas?
hi

mainly kanyadhanam/agni pradhakshina/sapthapathi are based on vedas.....some smrithis are different...i think parasara and

aswlayana smrithis are very important...even manglya dharana manthras not vedic based....
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Procedures for marriage emanate from the 'Sutras'. The 'Sutras' invoke vedic hymns as part of different procedures and thus we can say procedures have vedic link.

kAsi yAtra, as far as I know, is not defined in any sutras. It is more a 'loukika' event/drama enacted at the start of the marriage procedure. (Disclaimer: I don't have any great knowledge in the Sutras. In whatever sutras i glanced, i did not find them).

But my main contention here were these:

1. In Brahma-deya marriage, which is gifting a woman to boy who is meritorious in learning, kAsi yAtra is more about 'bragging' (or enactment of bragging) by the boy, that I am ready to go to kAsi for further learning. That the boy is well dressed with slippers, umbrella, stick and most important 'carrying a book' indicates that bragging.

What it is not is, it is not actually going to sanyasa as is commonly believed. We don't go to sanyasa well dressed, with slippers, umbrella, books etc..

For the bride's father, a right boy to receive the gift of daughter, is one who has already learned well and is ready to go to kAsi for higher learning. So this drama is enacted.

2. kAsi was a 'remote' place of higher learning for South Indian brahmins who had to cross the Vindhya mountains (like US) now. But it was not such a 'remote' place for others in the gangetic plains. Hence many we procedures we see in South India is not present in other places.

-TBT
 

prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
There is no Talli in North India, There is mangle sutra and it changes from place to place. Like TBTji say it is "louikika".

Then in the north most marriages are in the night.
 
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tbs

Well-known member
There is no Talli in North India, There is mangle sutra and it changes from place to place. Like TBTji say it is "louikika".

Then in the north most marriages are in the night.
hi

this is due to muslim invasion.....in day time...muslim rulers/soldiers used to kidnap hindu gals in day time...so night is safe time...

now a days....many weddings in north/south/west/east are local culture and caste based..very limited according to sastras...

even many pauranic based ,,not even vedic based,,,,,
 
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prasad1

Gold Member
Gold Member
hi

this is due to muslim invasion.....in day time...muslim rulers/soldiers used to kidnap hindu gals in day time...so night is safe time...

now a days....many weddings in north/south/west/east are local culture and caste based..very limited according to sastras...

even many pauranic based ,,not even vedic based,,,,,

Thank you TBSGaru.
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
Ok.....i have a question.
Kasi is a Shaiva location...so what about Iyengars?
Which yatra do they go to in their marriage ritual?
 

renuka

Gold Member
Gold Member
hi

good question....may be VAIKUNTA YATRA.....LOL

Hopefully an iyengar can shed some light on this...Vaaaaagmiiii Ji! Please come back to Forum!
I am pretty sure you are still reading posts here..so shed some light please.
 

thebigthinkg

Active member
Ok.....i have a question.
Kasi is a Shaiva location...so what about Iyengars?
Which yatra do they go to in their marriage ritual?

As I wrote, kAsi yAtra is boy going to higher studies and learning, bride's dad identifying such a boy and giving his daughter to that boy as a gift.

kAsi is the learning place for all the matas. Hence everyone goes to kAsi.

-TBT
 

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