Vow to speak Brahmin Tamil

[pannvalan]

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உண்மை தான்

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

The word "aththA' rhymes very well with the word 'PiththA'!

"PiththA" denotes Sivan-the Father of the Universe.

So 'aththA' must have also come to mean 'Father'.

 

[ykrrajan]

Dear Granma (V.R)

Based on your suggestion for better readability, I have removed the table format to a simple one. The ist is quite big but hope it caters its purpose. Thanks for the feedback

Mother – அம்மா, தாயார்
Father – அப்பா, தோப்பனார் (தகப்பனார்)
Father’s Younger Brother - சித்தியா
Husband of Mother’s Younger sister - சித்தியா
Mother’s Younger sister - சித்தி
Wife of Father’s Younger Brother - சித்தி
Father’s Elder Brother - பெரியப்பா
Husband of Mother’s Elder sister - பெரியப்பா
Mother’s Elder sister - பெரியம்மா
Wife of Father’s Elder Brother - பெரியம்மா
Brother - உடன்பிறந்தான்
Sister - உடன்பிறந்தாள்
Elder Brother – அண்ணா, மூத்தவன், ஜேஷ்டன், தமையன்
Elder Sister – அக்கா, மூத்தவள், தமக்கை
Elder Sister’s Husband - அத்திம்பேர்
Husband of Father’s sister - அத்திம்பேர்
Younger Sister – தங்கை,இளையவள்
Wife of Elder Brother - மன்னி
Son-In-Law - மருமான்
Sister’s Son (w.r.t Male) - மருமான்
Brother’s Son (w.r.t Female) – மருமான்
Daughter-In-Law – மருமாள், மாட்டுபொண்ணு
Sister’s Daughter (w.r.t Male) – மருமாள்
Brother’s Daughter (w.r.t Female) - மருமாள்
Mother’s Brother – அம்மான்,மாமா
Wife of Mother’s Brother - மாமி
Father’s Sister - அத்தை
Son of Mother’s Brother - அம்மாஞ்சி
Daughter of Mother’s Brother (if elder to self) - அம்மங்கா
Son of Father’s Sister - அத்தான்
Daughter of Father’s Sister (if elder to self) - அத்தங்கா
Grand mother - பாட்டி
Grand Father - தாத்தா
Husband – ஆத்துகாரர், ஆம்படயான், பர்த்தா
Wife – ஆத்துக்காரி, ஆம்படயாள், பார்யாள், சகதர்மிணி, அர்தாங்கிணி, சங்கிணி
Co-brother - ஷெட்டகர்
Husband’s Sister - நாத்தனார்
Husband’s Brother - மச்சினன்
Wife’s Brother - மச்சினன்
Wife’s Sister - மச்சினி
Grand Son – பேரன்
Grand Daughter - பேத்தி
Eldest - தலைச்சன்
Youngest - கடக்குட்டி
Son – பையன், மகன், குமாரன், புத்திரன்
Daughter – பொண்ணு, மகள், குமாரத்தி, புத்ரி
Eldest Son if he is the 1st Child - சீமந்த புத்திரன்
Eldest Daughter if she the 1st Child - சீமந்த புத்ரி
Eldest (Used with son,daughter….) - ஜேஷ்ட
Younger (Used with son,daughter….) - கனிஷ்ட
Second (Used with son,daughter….) - த்விதீய
Third (Used with son,daughter….) - த்ருதீய
Mother-In-Law - மாமியார்
Father-In-Law - மாமனார்

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Rajan,

I can ask the question "Chithiyaa? Chittappava? " meaning
"whether it is the chithi or the chittappA?"

How will you ask the same question in your dialect? I am eager to know!

with best wishes,
V.R.

 

[ykrrajan]

Dear Grandma,

The question would be as below

1.உங்க சித்தியாவா?

2.உங்க சித்தப்பாவா?

3.உங்க சித்தியா?

Thanks and regards,
KRR

Question 1 and 2 means the same i.e Male Gender and 3 for the Female Gender.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

reply to # 71.
dear Mr. Ravi,
How will you put the question "is it chithi or chittapA?" in your dialect?
I am really eager to know!
with best wishes,
V.R.

 

[ykrrajan]

Hi,

The word அக்காரடிசில் is actually derived from Sanskrit. It has two words joined together.

அக்காரம் - Jaggery
அடிசில் - Rice

This actually is Sakkarai Pongal in a liquid form.

Can any one explain the origin for the word திருக்கண்ணமுது . This also means the same as அக்காரடிசில் . But I would like to know the origin for its name.

Thanks and Regards,
KRR
KANNAN RANGARAJAN

 

[Nara]

....How will you put the question "is it chithi or chittapA?" in your dialect?
I am really eager to know!

அக்கார அடிசில் = rice and lentil are roasted first and then cooked in milk
சர்க்கரைப் பொஙல் = rice and lentil are not roasted, but directly cooked
திருக்கண்ணன் அமுது = திருக்கண்ணமுது = just plain பாயஸம், nobody refers to this as அக்காரவடிசில்

சித்தியா = father's younger brother
சித்தப்பா = mother's younger sister's husband

One assumes there will be no occasion to query whether a person is one's Chitti or Chittappa!!

Is he your Chitya may be asked as, "இது உன் சித்தியாவா?". If the person is female this question makes no sense, and the question will be "இது உன் சித்தியா?" without any confusion -- why would anyone use a male pronoun when the person standing in front of you is a female?

BTW, talking about அக்காரவடிசில், one of the lines in Andal's வாழி திருநாமம் goes as follows:

பெரும்பூதூர் மாமுனிக்கு பின்னானாள் வாழியே
​

This says hail to the one younger to Bhagavat Ramanuja. Everyone knows Andal predates Ramanuja by several centuries. Then, why is she referred to here in this line as the younger one?

Answer to this quiz, tomorrow!!

Cheers!

 

[ykrrajan]

Wow Nara,

That was excellent way. Just now got the clarification from my mom that திருக்கண்ணமுது is just plain பாயஸம். Also we do not the use the word பாயஸம் at home.

I was very much impressed in the prabandham quotes. Eagerly waiting for the answer.

It would be better if a thread is opened to enjoy and understand the Tamil Anmeega Lietrature like Divya Prabandham, Thevaaram, Thiruvaasagam......

Also to enjoy the slokas when broken down to simple words for understanding the same. The problem(interesting and intellectual) I am facing at home is when my brother's son/daughter pose questions on understanding the slokas and prabandham when we
say at home or when heard at Temple. At least for their sake I do dig out the inner meaning to answer them. In my childhood when ever I posed these questions, I got the answer "அதிகப்ரசங்கி சித்த சும்மா இருக்கியா".

But no one answered it and all my questiosn were buried in myself. At least I do not want that to happen to the next generation.

Thanks and Regards,
KRR
KANNAN RANGARAJAN

 

[saarangam]

Hi,

The word அக்காரடிசில் is actually derived from Sanskrit. It has two words joined together.

அக்காரம் - Jaggery
அடிசில் - Rice

Dear KRR
AFAIK the Sanskrit word for சர்க்கரை is guLam (गुळम्)and சர்க்கரைப்பொங்கல்
is guLapAyasam(गुळपायसम्).Can you kindly give the source from which the meanings given in your posting are obtained.
Regards

 

[sangom]

அக்கார அடிசில் = rice and lentil are roasted first and then cooked in milk
சர்க்கரைப் பொஙல் = rice and lentil are not roasted, but directly cooked
திருக்கண்ணன் அமுது = திருக்கண்ணமுது = just plain பாயஸம், nobody refers to this as அக்காரவடிசில்

சித்தியா = father's younger brother
சித்தப்பா = mother's younger sister's husband

One assumes there will be no occasion to query whether a person is one's Chitti or Chittappa!!

Is he your Chitya may be asked as, "இது உன் சித்தியாவா?". If the person is female this question makes no sense, and the question will be "இது உன் சித்தியா?" without any confusion -- why would anyone use a male pronoun when the person standing in front of you is a female?

BTW, talking about அக்காரவடிசில், one of the lines in Andal's வாழி திருநாமம் goes as follows:

பெரும்பூதூர் மாமுனிக்கு பின்னானாள் வாழியே
​

This says hail to the one younger to Bhagavat Ramanuja. Everyone knows Andal predates Ramanuja by several centuries. Then, why is she referred to here in this line as the younger one?

Answer to this quiz, tomorrow!!

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Sorry to spoil the mood. Google God appeared in person to me during my "dhyaanam" and gave this answer to your quiz:

"On a side note, when emperumAnAr was doing nAcciyAr tirumozhi kAlakshepam on
this particular pASuram, he felt: “ANDAL's desire was a kai’nkaryam that she could perform
through word of mouth only, but it could not be fulfilled in action by ANDAL. We have to
take care of that”. He immediately proceeded to tirumAl irum SOlai to fulfill kOdai's verbal
commitment. After performing this kai’nkaryam, he went to SrIvilliputtUr, and ANDAL
came out of her arcA samAdhi and embraced emperumAnAr, calling him “nam aNNarE!” -
“My dear elder brother!”. This is the reason why she is hailed “perumpUdUr mAmunikku
pinnAnAL vAzhiyE” - She made Herself the Younger Sister of emperumAnAr.)"

Further,அக்கார அடிசில் = rice and lentil are roasted (separately, I think, because these take different times to get roasted properly) first and then cooked in milk

 

[ykrrajan]

Dear Saarangam,

I have a Sankrit Tamil dictionary. A old one it is. The Publication is 1938 . Price is 3 annas. The name of the Book is வடச்சொல் தமிழ்.

As far as your post is concerned, I was talking about அக்கார அடிசில் and not சர்க்கரைப்பொங்கல். As mentioned earlier by Nara both are different.

 

[sangom]

The word "aththA' rhymes very well with the word 'PiththA'!

"PiththA" denotes Sivan-the Father of the Universe.

So 'aththA' must have also come to mean 'Father'.

"atthA unakku aaLaay ini allEn enalaame" comes in the same verse.

 

[Nara]

.... Google God appeared in person to me during my "dhyaanam" and gave this answer to your quiz:

though I am a non-believer, this god comes handy time and time again for me also!!!

came out of her arcA samAdhi and embraced emperumAnAr, calling him “nam aNNarE!” -
“My dear elder brother!”.

Right your are sir, let me give the two Nachchiyar Thirumozi pasurams (9.6 and 9.7), easy to understand:

நாறு நறும் பொழில் மலிருஞ்சோலை நம்பிக்கு
நான் நூறு தடாவில் வெண்ணை வாய் நேர்ந்து பராவி வைத்தேன்
நூறு தடா நிறைந்த அக்காரவடிசில் சொன்னேன்
ஏறு திருவுடையான் இன்று வந்து இவை கொள்ளுங்கொலோ.

இன்று வந்து இத்தனையும் அமுது செய்திடப் பெறில்
நான் ஒன்று நூறாயிரமாய் கொடுத்து பின்னும் ஆளும் செய்வன்
தென்றல் மணங்கமழும் திருமாலிருஞ்சோலை தன்னுள் நின்றபிரான்
அடியேன் மனத்தே வந்து நேர்படிலே.
​

Upon hearing this and realizing that Andal never fulfilled this wish in reality, Bhagavat Ramanuja arranged for 1008 vessels of Akkaravadisil for Sundarabagu/அழகர் of Thirumalirunjsolai. In our Tamil culture, older brothers are said to take it upon themselves to fulfill every last wish of their little sisters. So, Andal, witnessing the fulfillment of her desire by Ramanuja, exclaimed, "நம் அண்ணாவோ". This is why Bhagavat Ramanuja is consider the older brother of Andal.

One further note, if you have Salagrama moorthy in your home, you are supposed to perform திருவாராதனம் everyday. In the present day zeitgeist of anything goes, everything is flexible, nothing is required, Acharyas suggest that the lady or the man of the house, after bath with clean clothes, if not madi, at the very least place Sudda Annam + Anna Suddhi (clarified butter aka ghee) in a silver vessel (not Stainless steel aka eversilver -- not madi), in front of the Moorthy and recite these two pasurams.

அக்கார அடிசில் = rice and lentil are roasted (separately, I think, because these take different times to get roasted properly) first and then cooked in milk

In a different thread you noted that all Brahmin males are supposed to have at least rudimentary cooking skills. That is so true. As you noted, some even excel in this skill.

There is so much of "Brahmin" tradition that have been swept aside because they are not very convenient, and yet these same people hypocritically talk about preserving "Brahmin" culture -- what are they talking about, I don't know whether to laugh or cry!!!

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

Hi Sarrangam,

Thanks for the suggestion. But I have not heard any heard any of my elders saying நல் வாழ்த்துக்கள் on any occasion. They used to wish us சிரஞ்சீவி,சௌபாக்கியவதி . When we perform the அபிவாதே we used to hear the word அபிநந்தனம் as their wish.
So I think it is Brahminical Tamil. Most of the words used in Brahminical dialect are derived from sanskrit.

Practices may vary. Among smarta brahmins the prescribed response to "abhivaadaye" is "deerghaayushmaan bhava". The Sanskrit word "abhinandanam" indicates 'welcome', 'greetings', etc. But "abhivad" means " salute reverentially" which is the same as "do namaskaaram" and, in response an aaseervaadam is prescribed.

 

[Nara]

Practices may vary. Among smarta brahmins the prescribed response to "abhivaadaye" is "deerghaayushmaan bhava".

This is so among SVs as well....

 

[saarangam]

Dear Saarangam,

I have a Sankrit Tamil dictionary. A old one it is. The Publication is 1938 . Price is 3 annas. The name of the Book is வடச்சொல் தமிழ்.

Dear ykrrrajan
Thanks for giving the refernce.

 

[sangom]

In a different thread you noted that all Brahmin males are supposed to have at least rudimentary cooking skills. That is so true. As you noted, some even excel in this skill.

There is so much of "Brahmin" tradition that have been swept aside because they are not very convenient, and yet these same people hypocritically talk about preserving "Brahmin" culture -- what are they talking about, I don't know whether to laugh or cry!!!

Cheers!

Dear Shri Nara,

Here I think I will remember our friend Senthil. It is with the British government jobs which brahmins were able to obtain in large numbers that, I think, a certain snobbery came upon the brahmins and the males started behaving "differently" from the past. I say this because I have heard from elders that brahmin functionaries during the (Travancore) Maharaja's rule used to be unassuming when it came to mingling with family members, ccommunity "samoohams", etc., and some even used to deem it a punyam to serve water during feasts. They knew cooking also but because they could have so many servants, cooks, etc., it was not necessary for them to show their skill in practice. Probably they must have cooked their food during tours when they were lower level functionaries.

 

[Nara]

.... some even used to deem it a punyam to serve water during feasts. They knew cooking also but because they could have so many servants, cooks, etc., it was not necessary for them to show their skill in practice. Probably they must have cooked their food during tours when they were lower level functionaries.

Dear Shri Sangom sir, this reminds me of a joke to illustrate a central concept of Visihtadvaitam that names go deeper than the mere mortal coil, like aham brahmasi in fact does not refer to the jeeva, but goes deeper to the iswara who ensouls the jeeva. An example is calling out to a person wearing a blue shirt like, "hey blue shirt" when you are actually calling out to the person wearing the blue shirt, not the inanimate blue shirt itself. With this long preamble, the joke -- fair warning, not very funny

In a tadeeyaradanam (mid-day feast served to Bhagavata Brahmins) among those serving was a learned scholar and he was serving roasted sundakkai. This little boy wanting some sundakkai, called out to this learned scholar "sundakkai mama".

This illustraes the point you are presenting. In a goshti of observant Brahmins there was some modicum of equality and humility, in earlier times. Two problems, this is from distant past, and it was exlcusively Brahmin.

Really orthodox SV Brahmins don't eat anything outside their own home. When they travel they starve until they reach the home of an equally observant Brahmin. I know of a Sri Ramadesikachar, a doyen of SVs, a scholar, and a prolific writer, when he stayed at friends homes while traveling, would cook himself, do aradanam to his archa moorthy, and then eat the prasadam.

I remember reading of Tilak, when he was in Andaman prison, had his own Brahmin cook.

Cheers!

 

[sangom]

... With this long preamble, the joke -- fair warning, not very funny

Dear Shri Nara,

I at least did not find anything offensive to good taste. It was the normal practice to "call out" - the decibel proportionate to the desire for having any item - by appellations like "Ey, avial!", "Ambi, sambarek kondu vaa intha pakkam", "paayasam, paayasam" (usually by young children!) and all that in those glorious days of brahmins' feasts!!

 

[kunjuppu]

Dear Shri Nara,

...all that in those glorious days of brahmins' feasts!!

i heard the saastha preethis conducted by the ayyappan sanghams of mumbai still even today carry out the traditions of great sadhdhis. this from a relative of mine.

my dad used to be active in ayyappa sangham in madras and they used to have great sadhdhis in the 60s, 70s. not sure if it is still in vogue there...

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

There will be occasions to ask "chithiyA or chittppAvA?"

We won't ask when they are around, surely we can very well see who is who !

But suppose only one of them can attend a wedding or a function, then one can ask,

"Who is coming, your chithi or chittappA?"

 

[Nara]

..."Who is coming, your chithi or chittappA?"

Not so fast Mrs. VR. உன் சித்தி வராளா, இல்ல உன் சித்தியா வராளா?"

Nice try, but no dice ....

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

dear Mr. Nara ,
I don't like to say more words than necessary!
When one question is enough to get the info,
why should i ask two different questions?
Nor do I like the game of dice
with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[Brahmanyan]

உண்மை தான்

Pardon me for transgressing from the main thread.

As one who is interested in "etymology", I have come across a lot of variations in similar sounding words for father. In the Semitic languages like Arabic, Hebrew the word " Abu and Abba" are used to mean father. In New testament Jesus uses Aramaic word "Abba" to refer father (God).In "Brahminical" Tamil we use அப்பா (Appa) for father. In the past this word was used by Brahmin community only , most of other communities used அய்யா (Ayya) for father. But now அப்பா & அப்பன் (Appa & Appan) are used commonly by people who speak Tamil.
Very interesting subject. A Language finds acceptance and expands when it adopts words from other languages. English and Hindi are good examples. We have many words from other Languages in Tamil also. அலமாரி (Alamari) ஜன்னல் (Jannal) பீரோ(Bureau) from Portuguese language are in common use.Many other words like ஜில்லா,(Jilla) தாலுக்கா(Talukka), தாசில்தார் (Thahsildar), தாக்கல் from Persian are used liberally by all. Similarly we have adopted many words from Dutch and English Languages in our day to day use.

When we compare Tamil language used in the inscriptions around Bruhadeeswarar Temple in Tanjavur thousand years ago and that of now, we will understand the changes that had taken place in our mother tongue over the years.

Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.