Vow to speak Brahmin Tamil

[kunjuppu]

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Hi Kunjuppu,

Thanks for the welcome. I am based in Singapore. Thanks for the encouragement in my venture. Hope to succeed.

great yk ,

we could also use a s'pore rep here as s'pore gets into our discussion as an ideal place to live for tambrams.

personally i have close relatives there, who luv it.

greetings again and happy deepavali..12 hours earlier for you than us

 

[Raghy]

Sri. Rajan sir,

Welcome to the forum. Good luck with your venture. I will contribute (!) when ever I can.

Cheers!

 

[ykrrajan]

Shri Raghy,

Thannks for the encouragement and ur contribution.

 

[ykrrajan]

Hi,

My heartiest deepavali Well wishes to all the Tambrams. So let me begin with the first Brahminical dialect of Greetings. Elders/Scholars, pls Correct me if I am wrong with the caption so that we can start the task on the eve of an auspicious day of lights.

தீபாவளி அபிநந்தனம்

 

[Brahmanyan]

Hi,

My heartiest deepavali Well wishes to all the Tambrams. So let me begin with the first Brahminical dialect of Greetings. Elders/Scholars, pls Correct me if I am wrong with the caption so that we can start the task on the eve of an auspicious day of lights.

தீபாவளி அபிநந்தனம்

Dear Sri YK Rajan,

தீபாவளி நல் வாழ்த்துக்கள்
Welcome to "Tamil Brahmins" Forum.
Let us be what we are and not to worry too much about what others think about our way of life. If need be, let us refine our spoken Tamil in our own way instead of copying others. For that matter nobody in Tamil Nadu can claim that their rendering of Tamil words is better than any one else. Instead let us enjoy the beauty of language at its all facets.
Regards,
Brahmanyan,
Bangalore

 

[Iyer]

Dear Mr. Iyer,
The only way out is first to start talking Brahmin Tamil among ourselves- whether or not the others laugh on hearing it.
Slowly we can popularize our language among the others also. No harm in trying!
Thick skin also helps those people who care least for the environment
My guess is that most of us may not have it as a natural gift
with warm regards,
V.R.

I can't agree more on this Mz Ramani.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Iyer,

People are at different levels of evolution. So one person can't do
everything that another person is able to do.

This adds both to the diversity we see among people and to the general confusion among them

!

with warm regards,
V.R.

 

[Iyer]

Dear Mr. Iyer,

People are at different levels of evolution. So one person can't do
everything that another person is able to do.

This adds both to the diversity we see among people and to the general confusion among them

!

with warm regards,
V.R.

True Mz Ramani. But certain virtues are basic and common to humans regardless of race, ethnicity, creed, color, caste, religious affilliation etc. Everyone hungers for food, needs clothes to wear and needs shelter. So is language. Everyone needs language for communication. Dialects and accents in language are more due to influence of environment. Refined speech, reflects culture. Aspiration for high culture is common among human beings. The learned lifts up the unlearned. So should one of refined speech. On the contrary in Tamil Nadu, the Brahmins with a refined utterance succumb to the pressure of those of less refined tongue. The result is degeneration in communication.

 

[kunjuppu]

..... . On the contrary in Tamil Nadu, the Brahmins with a refined utterance succumb to the pressure of those of less refined tongue. The result is degeneration in communication.

iyer,

can you please explain this to me. don't other castes have 'refined tongues'.

have you ever hear a palghat iyer speak tamil? have you heard the current tambram youth speak tamil? or howmany english words in one sentence supposed to tamil?

have you heard two tambrams brought up in north talk? shall we call it tindi?

which of the above are 'refined' by your definition?

also the 'degeneration in communication' part. it baffles me as to how the absence of 'refined tongues' lead to degeneration of communication. all big words you use.. maybe you can put them a little simpler for me to follow.

thank you.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Iyer,

You are right. Those of us who know better, should help our less fortunate brothers and sisters, by lifting them to our own level.

Absence of refined tongued DOES lead to degeneration of communication.

For example, if I am forced to listen to Chennai Kodun thamizh, I won't pay any attention to it- since I really find it jarring.

The words as well as the accent bother me. So whatever is being conveyed would get lost in the space for ever!

New formulas:

Tamil + English = Thanglish (if Tamil predominates) or
Engmil (if English predominates). Similarly

Tamil + Hindi = Tandi ( if Tamil predominates) or
Hindmil (if Hindi predominates).

By mixing and changing the ratios we can create more languages

Personally i believe that the more languages a person learns, the better his ability to survive in the world.

with best wishes and regards,
V.R.

 

[Iyer]

iyer,

can you please explain this to me. don't other castes have 'refined tongues'.

have you ever hear a palghat iyer speak tamil? have you heard the current tambram youth speak tamil? or howmany english words in one sentence supposed to tamil?

have you heard two tambrams brought up in north talk? shall we call it tindi?

which of the above are 'refined' by your definition?

also the 'degeneration in communication' part. it baffles me as to how the absence of 'refined tongues' lead to degeneration of communication. all big words you use.. maybe you can put them a little simpler for me to follow.

thank you.

Dear Kunjuppu,

You are too erudite to be baffled by my expressions. I think I will have to replace the word 'accent' with 'flavor' here. If there is an alternative term, please suggest. Until then I will use 'Brahmin flavor' for 'Brahmin dialect' or 'Brahmin accent'. You had mentioned about Palghat Iyer Tamil and Tambrams' Tamil in North India. That is a matter of concern too. But you will understand that those are mere influences of environment. You may charitably bear with it and accept it. When living for a long time in a region surrounded by people who do not speak our language, our speech is bound to be influenced by the regional language. Besides there are Mother Tongue Influences over other languages and Regional Tongue Influences over our language. Influences over accents galore. I distinguish accentuated speech from cockneyed accent.

If you were a student of Tamil Grammar, you would have come across the term 'Mangala Vazhakku' (Varnished or Diplomatic Speech) versus 'Amangala Vazhakku' (Colloquial or slang). I feel the different flavors of the same language reflects the difference in culture and growth.

I am concerned more about different flavors of Tamil spoken within Tamil Nadu, by those whose Mother Tongue is Tamil and who are native speakers of Tamil and who are called Tamilians. You will not differ from me if I say, "Iskolanda Poyi, andha kasmalatha oottande ittikunu vaa" sounds jarring when compared with "School ande poyi, andha kuzhandhaya aahathukku azhaichundu vaa". Today Brahmins have compromised with their flavor of Tamil while the Non-Brahmins do not compromise with their flavor of Tamil. The colloquial is gradually replacing the classical. We find many classical words unused and colloquialism becoming comman and being accepted. That is what I meant by degeneration in communication.

Regards,
Iyer

 

[pannvalan]

Before one starts speaking Brahmins' dialect of Tamil, let us answer honestly this question:

"How many of us are willing/prepared to identify ourselves as Tamils, in the first place?"

Now, the steps involved in retaining our identity and preserving it are as follows.

1. No need to conceal our identity and any unusual steps/efforts taken in this regard to be dropped or never thought of (at least when you are in the
company of fellow Tamil Brahmins)

2. Then, learn to speak ordinary Tamil fluently.

3. Learn to read and write Tamil effortlessly and gain total proficiency.

4. Study simple, lucid literary works in Tamil which do not contain any slangs or dialects.

5. Watch many good orators or eminent speakers when they deliver lectures or participate in literary (need not be religious alone) debates or
symposia or seminar or group discussions. Listen attentively to what they say and grasp them.

6. Learn important proverbs in Tamil and internalize their context, meaning and application.

7. Read short stories, with illustrations.

8. Visit places of importance from the point of view of history, religion, literature and fine arts which together constitute our culture.

9. Never distinguish yourself totally from the other sections of Tamil diaspora which will result in your cultural isolation and sometimes you becoming
the target of their onslaught.

10. Now, you must define and understand 'what is Brahmin Tamil'.

- To be continued

 

[pannvalan]

'Brahmin Tamil' actually, if understood rightly, contains very pure Tamil words.

For instance, 'agam' became 'aam' meaning illam or life within 4 walls (remember 'agananooru'). Later it became to mean only house. So, 'aam' is not a bad word or a slang.

Similarly, 'ammanji' came from 'ammaan sei' meaning 'maaman magan'. Athai's son is 'aththan'. To my knowledge, in no other community in Tamilnadu, words to distinguish this relationship exists. Maaman magan and Athai magan both are called 'aththan' only.

- Will post more

 

[Raghy]

Sri.Pannvalan Sir,

Greetings. I thought, the words 'aththaan' (அத்தான் - அத்தை மகன்), 'aththimber'- aththai's husband ( அத்திம்பேர் - அத்தையின் கணவர்) are used only amoung caste brahmin communities. satru amudhu ( சாற்றமுது / சாத்தமுது), thirukkannamudhu (திருக்கண்ணமுது), akkara adisal (அக்கார அடிசல்) are few other caste brahmin specific words that I can think of, at present.

Cheers!

 

[saarangam]

Hi,


தீபாவளி அபிநந்தனம்

Dear ykrrajan
The word அபிநந்தனம் is a sAnskrit word not commonly used in brAhmaN thamizh.Also it means appreciation and not greetings.So IMHO தீபாவளி நல் வாழ்த்துக்கள்
would be a better choice.
regards

 

[pannvalan]

அன்புள்ள raghy

நீங்கள் சொல்வதில் எனக்கும் உடன்பாடே.

'அத்திம்பேர்' என்னும் சொல் தமிழ் அந்தணர்கள் மட்டுமே பயன்படுத்தும் சொல்லாகும்.

'அடிசில்' என்னும் சொல் அரிசியைக் குறிக்கும். இதே வார்த்தை சமைக்கப்பட்ட சோறு (சாதம்/அன்னம்) என்பதையும் குறிக்கப் பயன்படுத்தப்படுகிறது.

'அக்கார அடிசில்' என்பது இனிப்பான (சருக்கரை) பொங்கலைக் குறிப்பதாகும்.

அடிசில் என்னும் வார்த்தையில் இருந்தே அரிசி, rice (இங்கிலீஷ்) மற்றும் arusa (அரபியன்) சொற்கள் உருவாயின.

வடநாட்டவர்கள் இப்போதும் உண்ணப் பயன்படுத்துவது கோதுமை ஆகும். அவர்கள் சுப காரியங்களுக்கு மட்டும் கண்டிப்பாக மஞ்சளும் குங்குமமும் கலந்த 'அட்சதை'யைப் பயன்படுத்துகிறார்கள். அதற்கு கோதுமை பயன்படாது. ஆதி காலத்தில் இந்தியா முழுவதுமே அரிசி மட்டுமே உணவாக இருந்தது. இதற்கு சிந்து சமவெளி நாகரிகத்தில் நிறையச் சான்றுகள் உள்ளன.

'சற்றே' என்னும் சொல்லில் இருந்து வந்தது தான் 'செத்த' என்னும் வார்த்தை. கொஞ்சம் என்பது கிஞ்சித்து என்னும் சமஸ்க்ருத வார்த்தையில் இருந்து பிறந்தது.

'சுருக்க' என்றால் சீக்கிரமாக என்று பொருள். சீக்கிரம் என்பது தமிழ் வார்த்தை அல்லவே?

'தேவலை' என்பது 'தாழ்வில்லை' என்பதில் இருந்து வந்தது. ஆனால் தற்போது நாம் பரவாயில்லை என்னும் வேற்று மொழிச் சொல்லைப் பயன்படுத்துகிறோம்.. இச்சொல், பர்வாநஹி என்னும் சொல்லை அடிப்படையாகக் கொண்டு உருவானதாகும்.

இன்னும் சொல்வேன்.

 

[ykrrajan]

Hi Sarrangam,

Thanks for the suggestion. But I have not heard any heard any of my elders saying நல் வாழ்த்துக்கள் on any occasion. They used to wish us சிரஞ்சீவி,சௌபாக்கியவதி . When we perform the அபிவாதே we used to hear the word அபிநந்தனம் as their wish.
So I think it is Brahminical Tamil. Most of the words used in Brahminical dialect are derived from sanskrit.

 

[ykrrajan]

As mentioned before, I start the lessons. Your suggestions are welcome. As the discussion has strted with relations why not use the same and try to complete them. This is not the complete list. You are welcome to add more.

Family Relationships



Relation

Tamil word
Origin
Mother
அம்மா

தாயார்

Father
அப்பா

தோப்பனார் (தகப்பனார்)

Father’s Younger Brother
சித்தியா

Husband of Mother’s Younger sister
சித்தியா

Mother’s Younger sister
சித்தி

Wife of Father’s Younger Brother
சித்தி

Father’s Elder Brother
பெரியப்பா

Husband of Mother’s Elder sister
பெரியப்பா

Mother’s Elder sister
பெரியம்மா

Wife of Father’s Elder Brother
பெரியம்மா

Brother
உடன்பிறந்தான்

Sister
உடன்பிறந்தாள்

Elder Brother
அண்ணா

மூத்தவன்

ஜேஷ்டன்
Sanskrit
தமையன்

Elder Sister
அக்கா

மூத்தவள்

தமக்கை

Elder Sister’s Husband
அத்திம்பேர்

Husband of Father’s sister
அத்திம்பேர்

Younger Sister
தங்கை

இளையவள்

Wife of Elder Brother
மன்னி

Son-In-Law
மருமான்

Sister’s Son (w.r.t Male)
மருமான்

Brother’s Son (w.r.t Female)
மருமான்

Daughter-In-Law
மருமாள்

மாட்டுபொண்ணு

Sister’s Daughter (w.r.t Male)
மருமாள்

Brother’s Daughter (w.r.t Female)
மருமாள்

Mother’s Brother
அம்மான்

மாமா

Wife of Mother’s Brother
மாமி

Father’s Sister
அத்தை

Son of Mother’s Brother
அம்மாஞ்சி

Daughter of Mother’s Brother (if elder to self)
அம்மங்கா

Son of Father’s Sister
அத்தான்

Daughter of Father’s Sister (if elder to self)
அத்தங்கா

Grand mother
பாட்டி

Grand Father
தாத்தா

Husband
ஆத்துகாரர்

ஆம்புடயான்

பர்த்தா

Wife
ஆத்துக்காரி

ஆம்புடயாள்

பார்யாள்

சகதர்மிணி

அர்தாங்கிணி

சங்கிணி

Co-brother
ஷெட்டகர்

Husband’s Sister
நாத்தனார்

Husband’s Brother
மச்சினன்

Wife’s Brother
மச்சினன்

Wife’s Sister
மச்சினி

Grand Son
பேரன்

Grand Daughter
பேத்தி

Eldest
தலைச்சன்

Youngest
கடக்குட்டி

Son
மகன்

குமாரன்

புத்திரன்

Daughter
மகள்

குமாரத்தி

புத்ரி

Eldest Son if he is the 1st Child
சீமந்த புத்திரன்

Eldest Daughter if she the 1st Child
சீமந்த புத்ரி

Eldest (Used with son,daughter….)
ஜேஷ்ட

Younger (Used with son,daughter….)
கனிஷ்ட

Second (Used with son,daughter….)
த்விதீய

Third (Used with son,daughter….)
த்ருதீய

Mother-In-Law
மாமியார்

Father-In-Law
மாமனார்

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

Dear Mr. Rajan (reply to # 67)
I looked up the meanings of 'Abhinandanam'.
The four meanings given are 'rejoicing',' greeting', 'welcoming' and 'desire'.
So either rejoicing or greeting will be apt meaning for deepavali greetings.
So your greeting WAS correct!
with best wishes,
V.R.

 

[Visalakshi Ramani]

reply to # 68.

Dear Mr. Rajan,

You forgot about my advice to give words in smaller doses. Result?

your mail reminds me of Lord Hanuman's tail

I have never heard the word chithiyaa? It is Chittappa as far as I have known all along!

One more suggestion. You can use this tip I am sure.

Son = kumAran, magan, puththiran

wife =AththukkAri, bAryAl, sagirthAmani, arthAngi etc.

This will make it easy to learn the words without having to scroll down all the time.

Right? waiting for more words,
with best wishes,
V.R.

 

[samarapungavan]

Chithiyaa

reply to # 68.

Dear Mr. Rajan,

You forgot about my advice to give words in smaller doses. Result?

your mail reminds me of Lord Hanuman's tail

I have never heard the word chithiyaa? It is Chittappa as far as I have known all along!

One more suggestion. You can use this tip I am sure.









Dear Shrimathi Visalakashi Ramani,

Chiththiyaa is used as well as Chiththappaa. We use it in our family circles.

I amn't sure if it's a Thanjavur Brahmin Tamil dialect.

Regds,
Ravi







Son = kumAran, magan, puththiran

wife =AththukkAri, bAryAl, sagirthAmani, arthAngi etc.

This will make it easy to learn the words without having to scroll down all the time.

Right? waiting for more words,
with best wishes,
V.R.

Dear Shrimathi Visalakashi Ramani,

Chiththiyaa is used as well as Chiththappaa. We use it in our family circles.

I amn't sure if it's a Thanjavur Brahmin Tamil dialect.

Regds,
Ravi

 

[SwamiTaBra]

Quite right. I find that tamil siblings talk in marathi or hindi depending on the region they live. Telugu and kannada speaking have been here for centuries, but they retain their spoken languages -- though lot of Tamil do get mixed in, which is inevitable. Parents should at speak their mother tongue while at home so that the children can imbible -- this is not be construed chauvinistic

 

[pannvalan]

சித்தியா என்பது ஐயங்கார் இல்லங்களில் புழங்கும் சொல்லாகும். இச்சொல், சிற்றப்பனைக் குறிக்கப் பயன்படுத்தப் படுகிறது.
ஐயர் இல்லங்களில் தந்தையின் தம்பியை சித்தப்பா என்று அழைக்கிறார்கள்.

பிற சொற்கள்:
Wife - மனைவி, துணைவி, அகமுடையாள் (ஆம்படையாள்), ஆத்துக்காரி, சகதர்மிணி, தர்மபத்தினி
Husband - கணவன், துணைவன், அகமுடையான் (ஆம்படையான்), வீட்டுக்காரர், ஆத்துக்காரர்
Elder brother - தமையனார், அண்ணா
Son - பிள்ளை, மகன், மைந்தன், புதல்வன், குமாரன்,
Daughter - பெண், பொண்ணு, மகள், புதல்வி, குமாரத்தி,

 

[ykrrajan]

Dear GrandMa (V.R)

I did not forget ur advice. I just thought of putting all the relations in one go. Actually it was in a table when I copied from my doc. But donno why the table could not replicated in the reply and the result as u have rightly mentioned is a "ஹனுமார் வால்" .

Regarding சித்தியா , it is the term we use at home. I am a Tenkalai Ayengar (Dad - Tenkalai, Mom - Vadakalai). The list consists of the terms used in both sects of Ayengar.Donno if other sects of Tamil Brahmins use that term. Anyway can u help me in cmpleting the list if possible if I had missed out any.

Thanks for the help in அபிநந்தனம்.

Thanks
KRR
KANNAN RANGARAJAN

 

[Brahmanyan]

சித்தியா என்பது ஐயங்கார் இல்லங்களில் புழங்கும் சொல்லாகும். இச்சொல், சிற்றப்பனைக் குறிக்கப் பயன்படுத்தப் படுகிறது.
ஐயர் இல்லங்களில் தந்தையின் தம்பியை சித்தப்பா என்று அழைக்கிறார்கள்.

பிற சொற்கள்:
Wife - மனைவி, துணைவி, அகமுடையாள் (ஆம்படையாள்), ஆத்துக்காரி, சகதர்மிணி, தர்மபத்தினி
Husband - கணவன், துணைவன், அகமுடையான் (ஆம்படையான்), வீட்டுக்காரர், ஆத்துக்காரர்
Elder brother - தமையனார், அண்ணா
Son - பிள்ளை, மகன், மைந்தன், புதல்வன், குமாரன்,
Daughter - பெண், பொண்ணு, மகள், புதல்வி, குமாரத்தி,

When I was in Gulf, I had an attender, a Tamil Muslim from Tajavur district, he used to ask me to help writing letters to his family in Tamil. I found him using very ancient Tamil words in his language. He used to call his father as அத்தா very old Tamil word used in Thevaram. Of course he will mix Arabic words like சலாம் as well.

Brahmanyan,
Bangalore.