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vamsa vrudhdhi varam aa illai vedhanai yaa??

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Sri Nara said :-

"That is all there is to it. There is no ultimate creator or brahmman, nirguna or saguna. There is no Sriman Narayana who creates Brhamma by just looking at Mahalakshmi."

Sriman Narayana may not be reclining on adhishesha looking at Mahalashmi. But you can not say there is no brahman, nirguna or sarguna. Never mind about the ultimate creator. The ultimate creator is the nature/ prakruti. Unless Brahman is defined, one can not say that Brahman does not exist. Nirguna/sarguna are only qualities. Unless one want to split the hair in debating, nirguna/sarguna may be ignored. But Brahman can not be ignored.
 
Hello SK, greetings!

What is life? If we believe that life is also material, then it could be created in lab by certain right combination of Matter....

Humans are trying to understand what nature has produced over billions of years. Not everything is known fully. Gaps in knowledge, however wide that gap may be, cannot be the reason to believe in souls.

After death where does this “life” go? Or its components? If one knows it exactly , then storage, repair, and replacement will be easy.

Life is just the state of a functioning body. When death occurs the body can no longer function. Life is not "stuff" for it to go somewhere.

There is nothing supra-material in karma of parents that will have a very defined effect on the off-springs. There is no karma in a non-material sense that will attach itself to a jeeva that must be suffered.

Life is the state of matter, not matter itself. Science may or may not advance enough to bring back life, i.e. reverse the body from "dead" state to "living" state. That is not germane here.


... So just an escapism let us mug up what is written and believed by millions. So easy.for the layman.

Easy, may be, but is it good for a liberal society?

Cheers!
 
Dear Raghy,

Sow. Sri. Renuka,

This body is real. Only when 'I' leave the body, something happens. Until then, 'I' has to identify itself with the body. Remember, although short lived, as long as 'I' is in the body, then the world is real. 'I' do not like to leave the comfort of belonging. That's why 'I' wants to avoid death as long as possible.
tat tvam asi? You are that? I think you are jumping the gun here. We have to define 'that' first. That will be different discussion, I guess.

Reading your discussions with great interest. Agree the body is real in the physical sense. But isn't it also a maya or illusion as per our scriptures? In other words isn't the soul trying to elevate itself into becoming one with the paramatman or brahman by detaching itself with the real body and the physical world it is operating in. May be this takes many janmas but isn't that the real purpose of the soul?
 
ravi,

perhaps, if i may, give here, a different but essentially non religious, but reality aspect.

personally, i think children are a gift. natural, our own blood, children with good health.

most of us who have children, the first thing, that we verify on birth is the physical aspects. later within months, the mental aspects come to the fore. normality in both is the biggest gift that we can be bestowed.

i have several friends with handicapped children. each one has dealt with it in different ways, some seeking the path of religion, and others looking at it inwardly and retreating into shells, from which it took years to emerge.

for others on the outside i think there is no way to console these folks. support groups are there, who start off by defining these parents as 'God's special parents', for these are the chosen ones by God to handle handicapped childre, as most normal parents cannot.

my heart sinks when i see handicapped children and their parents.

compared to that, i wonder if not having children is a better option.

when i was young, it was a natural malfunction which caused childless ness. today, in the canadian society where i live, it is not uncommon to find healthy couples opt to live without children.

most of them cannot be bothered with the hassles of child bearing & raising. others have had bad child hood and do not want to consider parent hood, as this is their way of retaliating against a care less society or abusive parents.

some, childless by natural laws, have broken this status, by adopting. to me, adopting is one of the most noble acts of mankind. westerners who go 3rd world to adopt, are among the best of their breed, i think. even though these kids, thanks to the liberalism of their adopted homes, grow up confused and wanting, in many cases.

but that is not to say, adoption by itself is wrong. it takes again, a different skillset to be an adoptive parent than a natural one.

anotherr new phenomenon, increasingly popular, is those who are for many reasons, single - by choice or circumstances such as inability to find a suitable spouse. these too adopt, many from 3rd world countries, and i think, do a good job overall, from what i have heard.

so dear ravi, there is more than one way to skin the cat. i think to bind ourselves within the confines of scriptures, to me, appears to be a claustrophobic way to walk through life. i am more comfortable living and leading my life, primarily on my, spiritual and harmless terms.

hope all this ramble, from the other side of alice's mirror, makes sense. somewhat atleast. or perhaps a wee bit?

thank you.

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

A perfect analysis of human psychology in terms of parental responsibilities in the present scenario.

Since I strongly believe in Vedaantams, Shaastram and many met empiric aspects of human life, my strong openion is a man/women should not force himself/herself from giving birth to a child as a married couple.

Any force actions against the nature’s rule would certainly have it's own repercussions as long as we believe in the existence of Soul, its Karma, its Dharma and the supreme power (GOD) evaluating the actions of each Soul.

Based on these religious belief right from the ancient times that too specifically in Brahmins community (as non-Brahmins have only recently started adopting TAVASAM like concept by simply distributing Food to the needy during their Father/Mother Thithis influenced and inspired by our Brahmin practices) has its strong impact on many people of this present generation as well.

There are still plenty of people at least from the Brahmin community who all believe that Only by obeying the GOD'S instruction and following the Code of Conduct established by each dharma to full fill each individual’s Karma one can attain liberation.

I am one among those followers and thus keep pondering about all these ambiguous concepts and strive to conclude the facts...

Again I can say that based on the concept of "FATE" which westerner's do believe, having physically challenged Child, a illegal child and or a bad childhood experience instigating an individual to deprive himself from attaining parent hood are all considered to be one's fate to loose the charm of the life, again based on past karma...

I shall further detail my perceptions on this subject by way of responding to Sri Nara ji and many others..

 
My view is,

we have to consider the positive part of it. If there is a new child in the family then all will be happy. so vamsa vridhi will be a boon.


Sri Srikanth ji,

I am glad to note your simplistic and realistic point....

I have the same tendency......In fact each of us have that tendency unless one has strongly opted Sanyasam Ashramam Dharma...

I have a dream to get married with a soft, sensual, intelligent and spiritual inclined girl as my better half and have 1 daughter and 1 son.

I love to enjoy the feelings, emotions, natural tendencies of a girl and a boy and would like to share mine with them bringing them up successfully balancing them both on the materialistic and spiritual plane.

More over I love our tradition, culture, festivals, we Brahmin’s different ceremonies and customs where girls have their own role, priority and style of involvement and the boys have their own. Some are dedicated only for girls and some are dedicated only for boys. I love all these and would like to see my daughter and son nourishing in our tradition and be a descent citizen with desires to contribute to the society.

I wish every bachelor and spinster in this world irrespective of cast and creed should have these likings and have a meaningful life....as long as we human beings on this Earth would yearn to consider our self having a meaningful life by attaining all the systematic and essential goals of human life in our religious and social setup.
 
My view is,

we have to consider the positive part of it. If there is a new child in the family then all will be happy. so vamsa vridhi will be a boon.


Sri Srikanth ji,

I am glad to note your simplistic and realistic point....

I have the same tendency......In fact each of us have that tendency unless one has strongly opted Sanyasam Ashramam Dharma...

I have a dream to get married with a soft, sensual, intelligent and spiritual inclined girl as my better half and have 1 daughter and 1 son.

I love to enjoy the feelings, emotions, natural tendencies of a girl and a boy and would like to share mine with them bringing them up successfully balancing them both on the materialistic and spiritual plane.

More over I love our tradition, culture, festivals, we Brahmin’s different ceremonies and customs where girls have their own role, priority and style of involvement and the boys have their own. Some are dedicated only for girls and some are dedicated only for boys. I love all these and would like to see my daughter and son nourishing in our tradition and be a descent citizen with desires to contribute to the society.

I wish every bachelor and spinster in this world irrespective of cast and creed should have these likings and have a meaningful life....as long as we human beings on this Earth would yearn to consider our self having a meaningful life by attaining all the systematic and essential goals of human life in our religious and social setup.
 
Hello Ravi,

I suppose this is your personal theory based on selectively borrowing some concepts from the belief system of "hindus", namely soul and reincarnation, and leaving other concepts out, such as the ones propounded by the vedantic philosophical schools.

From the POV of your personal theory, how would you explain the expanding world population? Are these new souls? If so, where are they coming from? What karma would they be enjoying/suffering during their "first" go around in life?

I have a theory too, and I think (surprise, surprise!) mine is a more reasonable theory. I think there is nothing called soul. When we die, thats it. Nothing is coming back. This is the only life. Only our genes survive, that too only half, the other half being that of our sexual partner, provided an off-spring is produced. Our forefather's karma affects us only to the extent we inherit their material wealth and the goodwill or bad-will they have accumulated viz-a-vis other members of the society.

There are 100 billion neurons in the brain. It has the capacity to store, retrieve, analyze data, and decide, and act through the nervous system. The genes supply sufficient information to build systems in a boot-strap fashion. This also supplies the brain with ability to act in instinctual ways. Ability for other actions result from learning, i.e. gathering new data, storing them, and establishing ways for easy retrieval and comparison. As the volume of data gathered increases, at some point in time, it reaches a threshold level. At this point the brain becomes self aware. This state, the state of being self aware and conscious, is misunderstood as an entity, separate from body, called jeeva/soul.

During sleep, the brain is busy with other things and looses the cognition of consciousness. As we get old the brain loses some of its capacity. When it is affected by decease such as Alzheimer's decease, the brain looses certain level of functionality and cognition leading to confused consciousness. There is nothing called jeeva or soul, it is all a trick brain plays on itself.

Emotions are nothing but chemical balances in the brain. This is why drugs can affect it. Over billions of years through the process of random mutation and natural selection that aids gene reproduction and survival, our brains have developed chemical reactions that produce brain states that feel like joy and sorrow. These offer reproductive and survival benefits.

All living beings are nothing but gene survival vehicles. Read Richard Dawkin's Selfish Gene for a thought provoking and compelling presentation of these ideas.

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

Thank you for your elaborate narration....Your systematic and scientific explanations were awesome..

Spiritual philosophy have it's own consideration about existence of a soul and science has it's own scientific explanations.

My thread of this is purely based on our religious belief and out of scientific scope. Science may not even believe about KARMA. Science can say that every action has equal and opposite reactions in terms of physical objects. But I think in terms of KARMA science has not yet scientifically proved that every KARMA has its reactions...

I have clearly indicated in the beginning of this thread that my explanations on the subject are purely based on my own assumptions backed by some of our believes and acquired knowledge to some extent with out having referred to any holy/spiritual books and having attended any sort of spiritual speech program.

GENE -

Can we say that Gene doesn’t have living cells??

Unless Gene have living cells, reproduction can never take place. To the maximum extent nature/GOD has provided some sort of physical appearance to all most all of the Human body to help Humans scientifically prove and get satisfied. If we believe only on science (That we got only by grace of GOD) than we have to consider our self as atheist...

No need for religion, no need for spiritual approach in life, no need to refer religious/spiritual books and no need to believe in KARMA.


Keeping the science subject apart, I would like to know others stand on the subject of my thread - The soul if required takes re-birth in the same VAMSAM as I have presumed myself.

 
Both beliefs are prevalent. --Soul exists ; ;and there is no soul, all blood and flesh or just material.
I am also many times forced to come to the second belief. But I still cannot ponder to get real answers for the following:

What is life? If we believe that life is also material, then it could be created in lab by certain right combination of Matter—oxygen ,water or something like that. But it appears not so simple. Otherwise somebody could have found the way.
After death where does this “life” go? Or its components? If one knows it exactly , then storage, repair, and replacement will be easy.

I heard one Upanyasam when the speaker logically argued that life exists at the neck. His argument was that , that is why convicts are hanged by neck to death. Then how people die drinking poison? Then can u separate neck and preserve life? What about plant life? Some plants can be replanted by cutting stems etc.Thatmeans life can be split into parts?

These kind of thinking ,a sort of wild surfing , may take one to extremes and may even become mad.

So it is to escape these that , a belief of soul and rebirth was established. So that the questioning and thinking remain in specified confines, and don’t go aimlessly wide.

To escape from the karma effects of parents, why can’t one runaway from that place and establish with only one’s own effort? Or for that matter, two brothers or sisters born to same parents , have entirely different experiences in life ,why? So here the karmic effects of parents do not have similar effect, that means it does not have any effect.

If we believe that life is only material , then after collecting all the materials of cremation in a experimental chamber by laser incineration or some other scientific method without loosing or adding anything produced, can life be brought back by reversal?

These thoughts may haunt the young and old alike. So just an escapism let us mug up what is written and believed by millions. So easy.for the layman. Let researchers continue with their research for our sake.


Sri Suryakasyapa ji,

An absolute perfect claim...........

Soul can never be visualized and can never be scientifically proved. The subject is well under GOD's control...We can not scientifically explore some acute and cryptic secrets of life.

If we say that Gene constitutes soul in the form of living cell, than I have a questions.....

Gene is nothing but sperm. There are cases of impotency where sperms would not have any active living cells to cause forming egg in a womb. Than does it mean that, that particular impotent man has no soul and he is just a physical object with flesh and blood?

I believe about the presence of Soul in our body in a different angle....

Soul is a in the form of Air/vayu/prana. The moment we inhale we exhale, the moment we breath out we breath in. As long as this continuous we are alive and the soul have the body. I believe our soul has the tendency to go out of our body and comes-in in fraction of seconds. This only could prove the possibility of the concept - "KOODU VITTU KOODU PAAYARTHU" as practiced by great VIKRAMAADHITYA.

Once the time comes for the soul to leave the body and depart, it would lose its capacity/permission to enter into human body (a systematic and complicated interlinked mechanism that helps the body to function) to help keep functioning, our system fails and we come to an end.

And we believe the Soul has left the body and departed as per our belief that the body for the soul is like a costume and we (Soul) change our dress as and when required.

 
I just want to bring out an important point.

we all say these knowingly or unknowingly.

My body,My eyes, My hand, My house, My spouse, My child, My car , My Job etc.

Who is this "I" person?(denoted by "My" in the above line)

Answer this and you will have no more questions.

Dr.Renuka ji,

Happy to find your contribution here...

You have a good question to identify who is - "I"

I believe - "I" is the Soul.

The soul owns the body (a particular form) to have the tendency to achieve its physical and mental pleasure and end in performing certain KARMAS...Good and bad. Knowingly or unknowingly.

For example my name (identity of the soul) is RAVI. I would use "I" and "MY" for everything that would benefit me as per basic human psychology (as per God's wish to test each soul)

If I am too selfish to use "I" and "MY" too extensively for my selfish motive, others would certainly hate me as RAVI. Once RAVI is dead (the soul departed), people would still remember my deeds and intentions as RAVI. Who knows the same RAVI might be like "AUTO SHANKER" in his previous birth (form) or may be like "SRI VIVEKANADA" in the next birth (form). The soul would have his/our KARMA PALANGAL and has no impact of others views and opinions. Off course having done the wrong deeds would bear the negative KARMIC impacts of some sort of CURSE by someone or for its own devious means of survival during the life time.

The sould which has the capacity and penchant towards performing Sadhna and dedicate truly to the GOD as sanyasi/sanyasini or to the form of GOD (Serving the society for the social cause and not for the personal cause), certainly would not claim - "I" and “MY”. Here "I" and "MY" would make no sense to that soul.

I would like you to highlight your motive of exploring the "I" and "MY" concept here in line with the subject of the thread.



 
Ravi,

Thank you for your post.

To start off, I wish you well in your quest.

As you can see, from my several notes here in the forum, partly due to ignorance and mostly due to circumstances, my life has been formed for me, without the benefit of consultations of either horoscopes or the guidance of gurus or sasthras.

So, in many an instance, my guide has been my mother, who more than anything else, had a unsurpassable capacity to judge character and see through situations, and come out uncannily correct 100%.

It was indeed a little frightening to challenge mom, but in the end, she always proved right.

Hence in critical life decisions, like marriage, career or children, my mother was always a source of ideas, support and sometime critique.

My mother did not believe in horoscopes, and treated many of the life guide rules as prescribed either by the kanchi mutt or the shastras, with scepticism. Mainly it was her life experience, I think, lead her to that path. The mores of those times, did not permit her to study further than high school, seek employment or assert herself in the world, outside of her home.

So, while paying lip service many a times to the mores, so as not to rattle the society in which she lived, and ever aware of the marriage needs of her children, she maintained that noble attitude of inaction against formalism as dictated by our shastras.

All in all, I cannot complain about my lot. It had had its ups and downs, but ultimately tolerable.

Now, with your views on how you want to handle your future, within the confines of scriptures and well laid out stages of life, how do you hope to accept disappointments.

I have found, that many a folks, follow the scriptures, with the ardent belief that their prayers will be answered. Now it so happens, that bad things happen even to good people. It is a difficult situation, for these inherently religious folks, to see the irreligious getting ahead in life, while they, the true believers, literally get shafted by fates.

Interestingly, those few I know who changed religions, were such ardent hindus, who when faced with hardships, they interpreted this as proof, that our God was not good or did not have the wherewithal to deliver, and hence swapped to some other religion.

Whereas, I, comfortably on the borderline of a low percentage Brahmin, (thanks to krs for this %ism definition J) have never felt any need to question my God. Always have accepted my identity, and have gone about in what I felt was the best way for me to handle life, irrespective of what was prescribed in the scriptures.

I tried your method. Found it confining and also, myself a very insincere in trying to behave something that I was not.

Hope this explains, where I was coming from, and some underlying reasons for my view of life.

Thank you.
 
Dear Sri C.Ravi Ji,

Let us start with the first question. Is there an entity called God? Because without this an individual 'soul' has limited meaning. as we see below.

All major religions believe in the existence of God, except some like Buddhism and Jainism, for example, give more weight to individual souls without trying to answer the question of God. But their premise are bothe Karmic and Dharmic affecting the advancement of each soul.

Science used to question the validity of God, but of late, science at least is accepting the possible existence of an entity which lies beyond the system of physical universe, as the underlying reason for Big Bang. there are theories within Physics that accept the fact that almost 70% of material in the Universe are beyond the human comprehension through our senses.

Given that starting with the great Rishis of the yore in the east as well as the analytical thinkers of both the west and the east have definitely accepted the theory of 'God', it is quite a strenuous argument to make the case of the non existence of God today. Some believe in it, mainly because they abhor religion as the reason for man's condition today, and hence their hypothesis of no God. Guess what? No God, no need for a religion!

Secondly, then what are souls? This is again defined differently by different religions, with our own developing six darshanas (schools of philosophy) to account for the definition of it in relation to the material world as well as with 'God'. Our philosophies include all different ideas and models that one can find under the sun.

So, once one accepts the existence of a soul (which every religion, near death experience, mysticism, yogic practice and instances of past life remembrances to mention a few do affirm), then one needs to answer the question, if the souls are there, seperated from the material world, why some good people experience bad things and why a few bad people seem to enjoy good life? There is a ready made answer to this by the atheists - randomness. But then, this does not answer the question of the foretelling by vedic astrology. In my own experience, if vedic astrology is properly practiced, the results are astonishing. One can not just dismiss this as mooda nambikkai.

So then this takes us to 'Karma' theory. This is the only theory that can explain the disparities in this life and if one accepts the fact that evolution is both physical and spiritual, then physical evolution happens at the species level and the spiritual happens at both the physical (societal) as well as individual soul's level.

So, depending on each soul's present level, 'it' always uses the present life to advance spiritually aided by the effects of Karma. Both good and bad karma play a role in this advancement. In fact, an argument is made by some that bad karma is better than good karma to advance one's soul, because one will usually turn one's mind towards God.

By the way, there is nothing in our Vedas, connecting one's status as a Brahmin to attain Moksha. What part of your sanchtha karma fructifies in this life is something between the soul and Easwara, according to Sri Shankaracharyal.

The reason we are a small community is very simple. Like the members admitted to elite clubs all over the world, we as a community have been guarding our entry gates very closely.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear Sri C.Ravi Ji,

Let us start with the first question. Is there an entity called God? Because without this an individual 'soul' has limited meaning. as we see below.

All major religions believe in the existence of God, except some like Buddhism and Jainism, for example, give more weight to individual souls without trying to answer the question of God. But their premise are bothe Karmic and Dharmic affecting the advancement of each soul.

Science used to question the validity of God, but of late, science at least is accepting the possible existence of an entity which lies beyond the system of physical universe, as the underlying reason for Big Bang. there are theories within Physics that accept the fact that almost 70% of material in the Universe are beyond the human comprehension through our senses.

Given that starting with the great Rishis of the yore in the east as well as the analytical thinkers of both the west and the east have definitely accepted the theory of 'God', it is quite a strenuous argument to make the case of the non existence of God today. Some believe in it, mainly because they abhor religion as the reason for man's condition today, and hence their hypothesis of no God. Guess what? No God, no need for a religion!

Secondly, then what are souls? This is again defined differently by different religions, with our own developing six darshanas (schools of philosophy) to account for the definition of it in relation to the material world as well as with 'God'. Our philosophies include all different ideas and models that one can find under the sun.

So, once one accepts the existence of a soul (which every religion, near death experience, mysticism, yogic practice and instances of past life remembrances to mention a few do affirm), then one needs to answer the question, if the souls are there, seperated from the material world, why some good people experience bad things and why a few bad people seem to enjoy good life? There is a ready made answer to this by the atheists - randomness. But then, this does not answer the question of the foretelling by vedic astrology. In my own experience, if vedic astrology is properly practiced, the results are astonishing. One can not just dismiss this as mooda nambikkai.

So then this takes us to 'Karma' theory. This is the only theory that can explain the disparities in this life and if one accepts the fact that evolution is both physical and spiritual, then physical evolution happens at the species level and the spiritual happens at both the physical (societal) as well as individual soul's level.

So, depending on each soul's present level, 'it' always uses the present life to advance spiritually aided by the effects of Karma. Both good and bad karma play a role in this advancement. In fact, an argument is made by some that bad karma is better than good karma to advance one's soul, because one will usually turn one's mind towards God.

By the way, there is nothing in our Vedas, connecting one's status as a Brahmin to attain Moksha. What part of your sanchtha karma fructifies in this life is something between the soul and Easwara, according to Sri Shankaracharyal.

The reason we are a small community is very simple. Like the members admitted to elite clubs all over the world, we as a community have been guarding our entry gates very closely.

Regards,
KRS
 
Dear renu if you are havings a car you only will say itr is my car. Any part of it is part of the car , If anypart of it is to be repaired you will say my car`s part is to be repaired. Hence this body with soul in it (say just like battery in a toy) runs. The total body is I. when the body dies (rather battery weakens and doesnot perform)the body is burnt. then I goes for ever. Hence Body is I. When we die there is no question of I. Here replacement of batter is not possible, It is just like one time pen use and throw.
 
Dear Raviji,
I have to qoute Sathya Sai Speaks Vol 25 page 211-212 and page 215-216 to answer the question you put forth.

its in Q & A form.

What is the real "I" in man and how to comprehend this real "I" principle ?

It is true that it is the "I" that sees, hears and experiences.
But when a man uses the "I", he identifies it with the body sense and not with an awareness of its Prajna nature.(Prajna is Constant Integrated Awareness).
Hence there are two kinds of "I".
One may be equated with the term 'eye' and the other with the single letter 'I'.
The 'I' that corresponds to the 'eye' is related to the body.
The single letter 'I' proclaims the power of the Prajna.


How do we cognize Prajna present in all the constituents of the body & mind ?

One declares "This is my body" "My" is an expression of "I".

Again one declares: "This is my mind". Here again "I" is affirmed.

"This is my chitta(will),"These are my sensory organs"

In all these statements ,the "I" is repeatedly affirmed in the possessive case.

The declaration "this is my body" also carries by implication "I am not the body".
Similarly when one says "this is my mind", he affirms that he is not the mind.

The use of 'my' describing one's body and mind etc means that he is different from the body and mind....In the body, the mind and the intellect etc the Prajna "I" is present.

All thses objects have emanated from the infinite "I"
 
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Sri Nara said :-

"That is all there is to it. There is no ultimate creator or brahmman, nirguna or saguna. There is no Sriman Narayana who creates Brhamma by just looking at Mahalakshmi."

Sriman Narayana may not be reclining on adhishesha looking at Mahalashmi. But you can not say there is no brahman, nirguna or sarguna. Never mind about the ultimate creator. The ultimate creator is the nature/ prakruti. Unless Brahman is defined, one can not say that Brahman does not exist. Nirguna/sarguna are only qualities. Unless one want to split the hair in debating, nirguna/sarguna may be ignored. But Brahman can not be ignored.

Perfect Sri Raghy ji
 
Hello,

We also say my soul or my Athma. Whose soul is the soul?

This is caused by the inadequacy of language. Sorry, this is not proof of anything.

Cheers!

Sri Nara ji,

This was the question of many of the ancient sages for which they all took lot of harships performing Tapasya in order to get answeres.

Your question - Whose soul is the soul?

My answer - Every one's soul is the soul. Each soul with the use of brain in the body (a cabinet for the soul) and other organs tells - "MY" soul. Since we are human beings and use language to express our self we got and use the term - "MY". It doesn't mean that the term "MY" alone donates the soul as an illusion and there is no real soul.

Other species also have soul. But these species can not speak like us and can not use any term like "MY". In fact these species can not even reach to the extent of either, believing and understanding the concept of soul nor disagreeing with the concept of soul.

That's why a person who want to take sanyasam and wants to do Sadhna/Tapasya would isolate himself from the society and would confine himself in jungles where there won't be any human being with confusing languages to disturb him, making fun of him and distracting him with his thoughts.

Can you answer some of the questions like –

1) Why women alone got the arrangement to carry a baby in something called womb and deliver? Why men didn’t have such facility?
2) Why science could not develop artificial genetic fluids of Men and Women in a lab and develop a baby to be gifted to childless couple?
3) Why healthy parent’s have Dyslexia baby/Mentally retarded baby or baby with any sort of physical challenges?
4) Why science could not solve the problem of impotency of acute impotent men?


There are plenty alike.

Anyways, I am not particular about any sort of answers for my above questions. This would have no relevancy with the subject of the thread. The above questions were highlighted only to focus on the fact that there are plenty of mystic things in the universe that are all beyond human understanding. All that would ever be the philosophy of things beyond human experience.
 
Ravi,

Thank you for your post.

To start off, I wish you well in your quest.

As you can see, from my several notes here in the forum, partly due to ignorance and mostly due to circumstances, my life has been formed for me, without the benefit of consultations of either horoscopes or the guidance of gurus or sasthras.

So, in many an instance, my guide has been my mother, who more than anything else, had a unsurpassable capacity to judge character and see through situations, and come out uncannily correct 100%.

It was indeed a little frightening to challenge mom, but in the end, she always proved right.

Hence in critical life decisions, like marriage, career or children, my mother was always a source of ideas, support and sometime critique.

My mother did not believe in horoscopes, and treated many of the life guide rules as prescribed either by the kanchi mutt or the shastras, with scepticism. Mainly it was her life experience, I think, lead her to that path. The mores of those times, did not permit her to study further than high school, seek employment or assert herself in the world, outside of her home.

So, while paying lip service many a times to the mores, so as not to rattle the society in which she lived, and ever aware of the marriage needs of her children, she maintained that noble attitude of inaction against formalism as dictated by our shastras.

All in all, I cannot complain about my lot. It had had its ups and downs, but ultimately tolerable.

Now, with your views on how you want to handle your future, within the confines of scriptures and well laid out stages of life, how do you hope to accept disappointments.

I have found, that many a folks, follow the scriptures, with the ardent belief that their prayers will be answered. Now it so happens, that bad things happen even to good people. It is a difficult situation, for these inherently religious folks, to see the irreligious getting ahead in life, while they, the true believers, literally get shafted by fates.

Interestingly, those few I know who changed religions, were such ardent hindus, who when faced with hardships, they interpreted this as proof, that our God was not good or did not have the wherewithal to deliver, and hence swapped to some other religion.

Whereas, I, comfortably on the borderline of a low percentage Brahmin, (thanks to krs for this %ism definition J) have never felt any need to question my God. Always have accepted my identity, and have gone about in what I felt was the best way for me to handle life, irrespective of what was prescribed in the scriptures.

I tried your method. Found it confining and also, myself a very insincere in trying to behave something that I was not.

Hope this explains, where I was coming from, and some underlying reasons for my view of life.

Thank you.

Sri Kunjuppu ji,

From the time I joined TB I use to read each of your post very carefully. Need less to say your post always found to be unique in it's own way and I could myself evaluate your personality (that mostly depends on one's environment , your mindset and your believes as per my basic tendencies/capacity.

To some extent the things are same with me like you Sri Kunjuppu ji. I never had leafed through any of the religious books in my life (Off course Mahabharath and Ramayana) as these are one among special text books in our school (Kendriya Vidyala). Through these books, serials of puranic stories and some of the spiritual/religious concepts from my MOM, I could understand the met empiric concepts of life. I started developing interest in my late 19's and mid 20's and use to think on my own obviously by looking into myself, my experiences and the things happening in the outside world.

That was the stage when I started considering my Mother, my Father, My Sister and my Brother as different souls that all are innocent in this present janma in terms of relationship with me and with each other.

A close look into each of their life experiences including my own, teach me a lot about what is all about human life controlled by God

Even my present life experiences seems to be miracle for me and I believe this is the same with every other individual and would continue till the end as one's destiny.

My mother also studied up to PUC higher something and ever remained a house wife. My father born in Karnool where my Grandpa was a civil engineer under British government (during those days Andhra and Tamil Nadu was a single state by the name - TAMILPRADESHAM). My father lost his father at his 5 years of age. In the age of 19 he joined Indian Air Force and through out his life and was moving from 1 state to another. We were also moving with him. This way we never could even think about gaining knowledge in Vedam, Thirukural and many other religious books.

What all I started thinking right from my mid 20's and continuing till today are based on my assumptions supported by information in bits and pieces and some of my own.

I got the interest in these met empiric aspects of life when I could realize that a person can not necessarily get what he deserves and his hard efforts can not necessarily bring him fruits. One's honesty, sincerity and discipline can not necessarily support one self to be successful in his life until.....until a person finds himself in a good phase of time if at all ...if at all the destiny has something good in store for him/her.

I could justify myself very well some of the concepts that most of the people may believe -

- Vetri petra manirdhar ellam budhdhisaali illai, budhdhisalli manidhar ellam vetri petradhu illai.

- Porumaim kakkum...Nalla nerum vandhaal...Nalla neram vandhaal, nallathe nadukkum

- Ketta nerum irunthal nallavanum virodhiyaga maruvaan, Nalla nerum irunthal virodhiyum nanbanaavaan.

- Eppozhudhum nalladhe nenaithirundhaal nallathe nadukkum (being optimistic would obviously gives positive energy)

- Nalla manushanaaga vaazhndhaal nanmaiye nadukkum. Sodhnaigal varulam annal vedhanaigal nirandram aagathu. Kadaisiyil nanmaiye nirandramaagum

- Eppozhthum saappadu vishyathil vanjanam saiyaadhir. Aasaiyodu parimaranum, niraivaaga/obachaarum saithu parimaranum. Annam vishyathil eppozhudhum droham saiyakoodaathu.

- Periyavaalai madhikunum, yaarayumme punpadutha koodaadhu.

- Mirungangalai thunpaduthakoodaathu. Mirugangalaiyum paasathoda rasiththu, paasathai kaatunum


There are few other teachings that our parents have administered to us while bringing us up.

These are the advices and principles of life that I believe most of the parents advocates to their wards. As well I strongly believe that every soul on this earth experiences the above phenomenon of life in their life in some or the other ways.


Having followed all the advices and teachings of our parents I strongly believe that I can withstand any ordeals that I may face in my life. As well my believe in Spiritual aspects of life and my understanding to some extent of the concept of life in this world in terms of Jeevatma & Parmatma, KARMA, birth and re-birth ect.. are all can keep me composed in any odd situations of my life.

These thoughts and other basic knowledge has forced me to explore the various cryptic concepts of life. I had a lot of curiosity to discuss all these with others and have a debate.

Today after so many years I got a wonderful platform - tamilbrahmins.com that is fulfilling my desires and making me extremely happy. Here I got the opportunity to share my knowledge, thinking process and my belief. Subsequently I could learn a lot in many ways though many of our esteemed members..
 
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Dear Sri C.Ravi Ji,


The reason we are a small community is very simple. Like the members admitted to elite clubs all over the world, we as a community have been guarding our entry gates very closely.

Regards,
KRS

A Muslim can convert into Hinduism or Christianity, a Christian can convert into Hinduism or Islam and a Hindu including a Brahmin can convert into Islam or Christianity.....

But I strongly believe that any Muslim, Christian and any other religion person including Hindu Non-Brahmins can never become a Brahmin and adopt the principles.

A Brahmin can be a Brahmin only by Birth.

I don't carry any sort of discrimination with the people who had inter-cast marriage. Every one has the liberty to choose their life. But I believe their offspring and the following generation can never be true Brahmins (A couple themselves would not follow the detailed principles of Brahmanism

I believe Brahmins diminishing in population, deviating from the principles of Brahmanism etc..etc....are all the need of the hour as per natures/God's rule.

If I am not wrong, there is a believe in our puraanams that every YUGA will see advancements in Human standard of life and changes in thinking, belief & behavior.

Once upon a time Brahmins were the most respectable people. Gradually because of their own mistakes were pulled down and were put backward. Now there are many controversial issues as well within the Brahmin society...Why???? Is their any external force that is changing our mentality once for all? I believe we are changing gradually....Doesn't it make us realize that TIME has its own course of action?
 
Once upon a time Brahmins were the most respectable people. Gradually because of their own mistakes were pulled down and were put backward. Now there are many controversial issues as well within the Brahmin society...Why???? Is their any external force that is changing our mentality once for all? I believe we are changing gradually....Doesn't it make us realize that TIME has its own course of action?
__________________

Sri C.Ravi


Could you please list out what mistakes we have done in the past?

What are the controversial issues which you have in mind?

If you bring out all the above in our forum then probably we can try to correct our mistakes at least in future.

All the best
 
Dear Raviji,
I have to qoute Sathya Sai Speaks Vol 25 page 211-212 and page 215-216 to answer the question you put forth.

its in Q & A form.

What is the real "I" in man and how to comprehend this real "I" principle ?

It is true that it is the "I" that sees, hears and experiences.
But when a man uses the "I", he identifies it with the body sense and not with an awareness of its Prajna nature.(Prajna is Constant Integrated Awareness).
Hence there are two kinds of "I".
One may be equated with the term 'eye' and the other with the single letter 'I'.
The 'I' that corresponds to the 'eye' is related to the body.
The single letter 'I' proclaims the power of the Prajna.


How do we cognize Prajna present in all the constituents of the body & mind ?

One declares "This is my body" "My" is an expression of "I".

Again one declares: "This is my mind". Here again "I" is affirmed.

"This is my chitta(will),"These are my sensory organs"

In all these statements ,the "I" is repeatedly affirmed in the possessive case.

The declaration "this is my body" also carries by implication "I am not the body".
Similarly when one says "this is my mind", he affirms that he is not the mind.

The use of 'my' describing one's body and mind etc means that he is different from the body and mind....In the body, the mind and the intellect etc the Prajna "I" is present.

All thses objects have emanated from the infinite "I"

Dr. Renuka ji,

I really could not understand what way your quote gives me the answer for my question....I believe the question of "I" and "MY" concept was yours.

My questions are nothing but the subject of my Thread.

Perhaps, I have given my own explanations as per my understanding and belief as what exactly "I" and "MY" would mean in my previous post. In fact honestly I have never referred any article on the subject of “I” and “MY”. What ever I have quoted about this are purely my own perceptions.

-----------------------------

I believe - "I" is the Soul.

The soul owns the body (a particular form) to have the tendency to achieve its physical and mental pleasure and end in performing certain KARMAS...Good and bad. Knowingly or unknowingly.

For example my name (identity of the soul) is RAVI. I would use "I" and "MY" for everything that would benefit me as per basic human psychology (as per God's wish to test each soul)

If I am too selfish to use "I" and "MY" too extensively for my selfish motive, others would certainly hate me as RAVI. Once RAVI is dead (the soul departed), people would still remember my deeds and intentions as RAVI. Who knows the same RAVI might be like "AUTO SHANKER" in his previous birth (form) or may be like "SRI VIVEKANADA" in the next birth (form). The soul would have his/our KARMA PALANGAL and has no impact of others views and opinions. Off course having done the wrong deeds would bear the negative KARMIC impacts of some sort of CURSE by someone or for its own devious means of survival during the life time.

The sould which has the capacity and penchant towards performing Sadhna and dedicate truly to the GOD as sanyasi/sanyasini or to the form of GOD (Serving the society for the social cause and not for the personal cause), certainly would not claim - "I" and “MY”. Here "I" and "MY" would make no sense to that soul.

- "I" and "MY" exists till the SOUL owns the body and its parts.
-----------------------------

I believe your explanations about "I" and "MY" referring to "Sathya Sai Speaks" is highlighting the same points as I have indicated in my previous quote ON MY OWN.

My questions were totally different. That are all exactly as per the subject of this thread. But interestingly, now we have started exchanging many views on different subjects...

Anyways I am enjoying all of them...no complaints…But would be happy to receive some feedback on the subject matter of my thread and my relevant perceptions.
 
Once upon a time Brahmins were the most respectable people. Gradually because of their own mistakes were pulled down and were put backward. Now there are many controversial issues as well within the Brahmin society...Why???? Is their any external force that is changing our mentality once for all? I believe we are changing gradually....Doesn't it make us realize that TIME has its own course of action?
__________________
Sri C.Ravi


Could you please list out what mistakes we have done in the past?

What are the controversial issues which you have in mind?

If you bring out all the above in our forum then probably we can try to correct our mistakes at least in future.

All the best

Sri KVR ji,

I am not referring to the mistakes of we Brahmins during our peak period of recognition and respect that is not known to us in general.

We all know as what was our behavior in the past towards other low cast communities.

Regarding current controversial issues, needless to say we had discussed some of the subjects in recent past.

As well there are many issues for which no one can be blamed or an individual can not be forced to alter one's preferences for the sake of the community at large.


Sri KVR ji, you are senior to me and know many things much better than me. Many of our senior citizens are much aware of the past and the present. I have just indicated the points which we all know in elaborate. And there is no need to expand them in detail. More over I feel we all have deviated from the subject of the thread and started discussing on many topics that hardly seems to have relevancy.


By asking me to pin point everything, I feel you are just making fun of me.


Anyways....for me, no hard feelings..............Its all part of the game.
 
Sri C Ravi,

We are blamed for oppression of other communities in the past which I am fully aware of. Whatever happened in the past could not be rectified now and we can only ensure that we are not continuing the past mistakes. But others don't want to forgive us for the past mistakes of our forefathers and there is no point in debating on the issue again and again. Only time alone can heal their wounds.

Now we are in a situation where Governments both at the center and state in India are depriving us of opportunities. We have vocated Government jobs in the past and are in the process of vocating public sector jobs also now.

Private sector is the only option for them to target now and already talks are going on. But till it becomes a law and goes through the challenges in the court, we don't have to bother about it for the time being.

Now let us bother about empowering our younger generation who can take care of the challenges of tomorrow. Please suggest opportunity areas within India as well as abroad so that we can silently work towards that goal

All the best
 
Dear Sir, Is it not true that India was two hundred and odd small countries each ruled by a king. AS every king wanted to protect his country and countrymen he had his own rules and regulations to differnciate from others.
Thus we had separate sambradayams for each group of countrymen. Each country had their Kshethriya sudras vaisyas and Brahmins. Since the work of others except Brahmins could be quantified they were paid as per their work. For brahmins who were given with the only work of worshiping for the betterment of countrymenthe output could not be quantified. Hence Raja determined that brahmins shoud be treated as equal to god or nearGod. So giving Dakshinas or donation to brahmin was treated as good thing. In any feast brahmins were given priority because of this. As they had no other work other than pooja they got more time to observe/study and enrich their thoughts and deeds.

This will also explain why brahmins of various parts have different systems.

Later on when these countries were united and India was formed even though by Language we were one we could not cover our sambradayam difference.

Since independence due to development of schools other non brahmins had oportunity to enrich their thoughts and now they are also coming at par with brahmins.
Now it is time to understand our exact position and work hard with unity. In this present era only collective bargain can get us better. Let us be united. with cheers
 
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